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If I had to guess on Diverse Lore, it would just let you use Esoteric Lore on any topic, but perhaps at a penalty if it isn't a creature/hazard/haunt, filling a gap of the playtest feat Esoteric Lore.I am curious how the Ammunition Thaumaturgy feat will work - it might be key for playing a ranged weapon Thaumaturge - but I'm not sure if it will let you use 1+ hand weapons. Totally could, though?NoNat just posted an image of it on Twitter. It lets you reload using the same hand that is holding your implement.
Edit: Oh and now I see some feat called Diverse Lore right below that one so now I'm really curious what THAT feat is about.
Yeah, I'm guessing that or tacking on additional knowledge on Exploit Vulnerability, like how Find Flaws worked with Recall Knowledge.
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One small detail I love is that the Chalice works with negative healing, because that implement is perfect flavor for a dhampir/vampire character.
Also, assuming you can get an implement and its initiate feature by level 4 or 6 on a multiclassed character, what implements are the best for other classes? Mirror seems phenomenal on a Rogue, allowing you to set up sneak attack by yourself easily. Chalice and Amulet seem good for any front liners with a free hand, notably fighters who don't mind giving up a shield. Tome is a straight upgrade for any Raise a Tome Magus.
It makes me want to play a skeleton pirate thaumaturge and just constantly sip/drink from chalice as stuff just flows over my bones haha.
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Anyone else find it odd you the Thaumaturge can't bypass resistance?
There's a feat for that, apparently.
Anyone else find it odd the Thaumaturge can't bypass resistance?
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Anyone else find it odd you the Thaumaturge can't bypass resistance?
I find it odder that your question was answered before you posted it... :P
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Anyone else find it odd you the Thaumaturge can't bypass resistance?There's a feat for that, apparently.
Yeah, there is a Breached Defenses feat at level 4 that allows you to also learn about resistances that can be bypassed. If you wish, you can bypass one said resistance instead of applying the personal antithesis or mortal weakness with Exploit Vulnerability.
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Anyone else find it odd you the Thaumaturge can't bypass resistance?I find it odder that your question was answered before you posted it... :P
Dark Archive is the book with the time shenanigans stuff in it...
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Honestly this class looks pretty dope. I really want to play one. Scratches a lot of the itches inquisitor did for me, but sans the cultural baggage.
Have they established if you can have both personal antithesis and mortal weakness up on the same enemy?
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Something that people haven’t considered for early level builds before you can get a returning rune is going for a combat Grapnel or an Aklys, which have the feathered quality so you can yank them back after throwing.You could also just start with a whip/bladed whip/asp coil and move up to a thrown weapon later. The yanking back takes extra actions.
Shuriken ?
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Honestly this class looks pretty dope. I really want to play one. Scratches a lot of the itches inquisitor did for me, but sans the cultural baggage.
Have they established if you can have both personal antithesis and mortal weakness up on the same enemy?
I think not because of the "or" in "Get mortal weakness or personal antithesis".
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Have they established how long Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis last? And can what are the targeting requirements? If I'm told there be dragons up ahead can I prebuff?
Backing to OP.
There's other weirdness about Thaumaturge's MAD that is the low incentive to invest in your Cha!
I say this because there's only 2 main uses for the stat that are Esoteric Lore and Exploit Vulnerability!
Exploit Vulnerability basically works even in failure giving Personal Antithesis. So especially against no weakness creature and even if a creature have a weakness stronger than Personal Antithesis even with low cha theres a good chance to pass in the check or you can simply retry next round.
The Esoteric Lore is useful to RK of creatures and more situational way haunts and curses. So it's primary use is to RK a creature but you still can RK of creatures in traditional way using Arcana, Occultism, Nature, Religion, Society so it's just make EL an interesting feature but not a killing one and to complete this due the limitation of RK's test cannot be retried in case of a failure and the fact that Exploit Vulnerability basically already gives the mostly useful info about the creatures that are their weaknesses and their exact amounts also having a chance to give their resistances, immunities, unusual weaknesses/vulnerabilities and haven't a retry limit like RK this easily eclipses the Esoteric Lore's utility is most cases.
Also we have only 2 implements that requires cha (chalice and wand) but if you don't plan to use them your cha stat doesn't matter.
This make me think "why I have to focus in the Thaumaturge key stat?" in many build concept isn't better to just ignore it and focus in other stats like str,dex,con or even int/wis if I want an expert of supernatural/magical things? Probably the char will be stronger and more versatile this way than a cha focused Thaumaturge.
This also make me think that probably (we yet don't know) the thaumaturge archetype will be more interesting in most characters concepts and build than a "true" thaumaturge build.
IMO the thaumaturge is currently very weird. Maybe some feats may help to make it more logic but based in what I saw...
I think neglecting charisma is a bad call, at least in relation to the mental stats. Recall Knowledge about creatures can still be extremely useful, especially if you discover a creature before combat and don't need to spend precious actions. (People should scout more often.) You could try to use other skills for Recall Knowledge so you can also do things like Identify Magic, but you can't keep your profiency up across all 5 skills. And I don't think specializing in one fits the dabbler flavor if the class. Leave identifying spells to the spell casters. Trying to keep up with them will inevitably make you worse at doing what the class is best at: identifying monsters.
Plus you get so many trained skills out the gate that there's less reason to bump intelligence.
And of course, there's the fact that charisma is a banging stat to build around on any character. Diplomacy is a cornerstone skill no party should be without. Intimidation is great for battle and fits the spooky vibe. And Deception opens mad doors with a little creativity. The Thaumaturge stands to be the best martial face. In fact, they can be the best battle marshall martial face-- snag that archetype. Heck, with Regalia you can be a better face than a bard, and more knowledgeable to boot. Tome and Regalia makes for quite the skill monkey.
Then on the combat side of things, I think you undervalue improving Exploit Vulnerability. The success and failure may yield the same result against creatures with no pre-existing weaknesses, but against those that have them Mortal Weakness will pretty much always be better than Personal Antithesis. (And with the bypass defenses feat you'll likely see similar results against resistance.) Plus you can use that higher damage against other enemies of the same type.
And then there are crits to consider. Critical failure is really bad, and critically succeeding is really good. Critical success is especially good against creatures with complicated weaknesses. Golem Antimagic is such a complicated ability that you probably can't squeeze all those details into the first Recall Knowledge check to identify the thing. You obviously want strength or dexterity as high as you can, but I wouldn't pursue both with medium armor proficiency. I'd prefer to give myself the best chance to land hits and Exploit Vulnerability.
I also think we can count on some additional feats to expand on charisma support.
I could see starting charisma at 16 in favor of constitution, but I think you're shooting yourself in the foot to dump your key stat.
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Nonat1s' deep dive Class Guide is up.
Video link
Nonat1s' deep dive Class Guide is up.
Video link
Excited to dig in. Thanks for the heads up.
Feats start about 50 minutes in, that's the part that is new to me.
So like most new classes, I do think there is a bit of a limit on the breadth the feats cover - there is only so much page space. Thaumaturge can definitely use some archetypes though, which is good news. The scroll feats are still solid (about the same as the playtest from what I can tell), but there are a few new feats relating to item usage. Activating a once per day item an additional time seems great, as does using your class DC for the item save once per ten minutes (as a free action). The extra investments seems... unnecessary, but a potentially fun option with a bunch of mid-level items on a high level character.
I'm a little surprised not to see a Rule of Three equivalent feat. I forget if I commented here or not, but I was expecting a feat that builds off Intensify to be the Rule of Three replacement. Also, I would have loved a single feat for each implement. An optional way to specialize in one (or more) implement even further would help bridge the gap between Adept and Paragon unlocks, but at least the extra reaction feat made it in. That will be very good in my experience, as the extra reaction feats usually are.
The feature that covers ammunition, now makes viable a Thaumaturge armed with a pistol, (or crossbow would be better?), I'm imagining those cowboy-like creature hunters, cigarette in mouth, dark past, and bad face... I'm thinking about weapon as the first implement and also get the parchment feat, I thought the idea of being able to use "any magic" in the game was cool.
This is good. There's plenty of room for a few archetype feats and strong feats in general especially as you progress. A scroll thaumaturge is even better at landing debuffs than a full caster outside of the 6 curve levels (7-8, 15-16, 19-20). A few feats that are basically required and go in every build but nothing too egregious like needing specific implements for some feats.
Yeah, should be a strong class.
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The other nice thing: this is the first class that feels janky and eclectic enough to justify the gnome flick mace as a flavor choice.
I might be more into the psychic, but hot damn does the thaumaturge look great at about every turn. I would've never thought that I would see a class that I wouldn't mind a lower attack roll on. Now I did.
Well actually I was thinking of Thaumaturge using a pistol, not MC, at least not at this first moment, our GM may not use Free Archetype so I'm, for now, moving away from the MC, I'm going for "pure" Thaum, but using a pistol .I think the big problem was the recharge right?
Well actually I was thinking of Thaumaturge using a pistol, not MC, at least not at this first moment, our GM may not use Free Archetype so I'm, for now, moving away from the MC, I'm going for "pure" Thaum, but using a pistol .I think the big problem was the recharge right?
The feat does nothing to fix the actual problem which is the action tax to reload.
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I love what paizo did with the thaumaturge class feats. Most of its actions and reactions are built in their class features, so you are left with mostly passive effects to alter how those features work. It is very elegant and makes me really excited about future classes to come. They can also be super versatile with the trinket/scroll stuff.
I want to clarify by saying I don't want every class to be like this, but I think it is cool that the class feats this time have a diferent feel compared to other martials.
Well actually I was thinking of Thaumaturge using a pistol, not MC, at least not at this first moment, our GM may not use Free Archetype so I'm, for now, moving away from the MC, I'm going for "pure" Thaum, but using a pistol .I think the big problem was the recharge right?The feat does nothing to fix the actual problem which is the action tax to reload.
But it makes Repeating Hand Crossbow even better as you are no longer screwed when going for +2 status -> 2 strikes and hit your 3rd/4th turn.
I have the feeling R. Hand Crossbow with Weapon, Book and either Amulet or Mirror implements is going to be insane.
I think neglecting charisma is a bad call, at least in relation to the mental stats. Recall Knowledge about creatures can still be extremely useful, especially if you discover a creature before combat and don't need to spend precious actions. (People should scout more often.) You could try to use other skills for Recall Knowledge so you can also do things like Identify Magic, but you can't keep your profiency up across all 5 skills. And I don't think specializing in one fits the dabbler flavor if the class. Leave identifying spells to the spell casters. Trying to keep up with them will inevitably make you worse at doing what the class is best at: identifying monsters.
Plus you get so many trained skills out the gate that there's less reason to bump intelligence.
And of course, there's the fact that charisma is a banging stat to build around on any character. Diplomacy is a cornerstone skill no party should be without. Intimidation is great for battle and fits the spooky vibe. And Deception opens mad doors with a little creativity. The Thaumaturge stands to be the best martial face. In fact, they can be the best battle marshall martial face-- snag that archetype. Heck, with Regalia you can be a better face than a bard, and more knowledgeable to boot. Tome and Regalia makes for quite the skill monkey.
Then on the combat side of things, I think you undervalue improving Exploit Vulnerability. The success and failure may yield the same result against creatures with no pre-existing weaknesses, but against those that have them Mortal Weakness will pretty much always be better than Personal Antithesis. (And with the bypass defenses feat you'll likely see similar results against resistance.) Plus you can use that higher damage against other enemies of the same type.
And then there are crits to consider. Critical failure is really bad, and critically succeeding is really good. Critical success is especially good against creatures with complicated weaknesses. Golem Antimagic is such a complicated ability that you probably can't squeeze all those details into the first Recall Knowledge check to identify the thing. You obviously want strength or dexterity as high as you can, but I wouldn't pursue both with medium armor proficiency. I'd prefer to give myself the best chance to land hits and Exploit Vulnerability.
When I talk that charisma is considerably useless as key stat imagine the following situation:
A dwarf (I choosed dwarf purposely due -2 in cha to force the redution of charisma to 10) and an all-round distributed stats in this way:
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 10
Using some one-handed melee weapon, this weapon as implement or maybe some other implement that doesn't depend from cha.
LvL 1: Mostly creatures that a char os this level faces don't have any kind of weakness, maybe have a some especial ability in rare cases. Usually their DCs to do RK and Exploit Vulnerability is 14-18 (lvl 0 to lvl 3 creatures), so let's consider the players face a lvl 3 creature (a Cockatrice), a severe encounter. It's DC 18.
This hypothetic Thauma uses Exploit Vulnerability against the creature, it have to only +3 to check due no cha. If it rolls:
20: The char receive the information that cockatrice is immune to calcification
15 or more: The char receive the information that cockatrice has no weakness and will use Mortal weakness
6 or more: The char receive no information but can use Mortal weakness normally
5 or less: The char critical failure the check and become flat-footed but can try again next round.
So with 10 cha, a Thauma facing 1 creature severe encounter has only 25% of real failure with some consequences. Any other result will basically provide you Mortal weakness and basically any other useful information.
Now let's imagine that this char want's other information of this creature. It have 2 options. It can use Arcana or Nature both with +5 due it's int and wis bonus vs DC 18, or can use Esoteric Lore vs DC 16 (the DC is smaller due Unspecific Lore) both chances are basically same in this situation so if it rolls:
20: Recall with additional information
15 or more: Recalls a right information
6 or more: Recall a right and a wrong information due Dubious Knowledge
5 or less: Recalls a wrong info.
Now we have a little worse situation. You have a 25% of chance to receive a wrong info, have a 50% of chance to receive a right and a wrong information (probably info about Calcification but some wrong unrelated info like identify it as an undead because it's ugly and eats stone kkk), 20% of chance to receive the right info and 5% of chance to receive right info + some additional (like it Calcification immunity).
So in this situation you have a good chance (75%) to receive a useful info (Calcification) maybe the wrong info can made you or some party member do a mistake (try to heal) yet you will know that you need to take care to not be turned into stone. It isn't really so bad for a 10 cha, is basically the same chance of other non-int/wis focused players that wanted put some points in wis/int have.
And as trade-off you have a good hit and a good damage because of your 16 str + Mortal weakness and yet have a good fortitude and some extra HP due the medium cons. You also can use your int and wis to do other RK checks that is outside the Esoteric Lore scope.
LvL 2: Now you can put Unmistakable Lore to avoid wrong informations in your Esoteric Lore checks and your lower cha make even less diference. And add Sentinel dedication to allow the usage of heavy armors.
LvL 5: You upgrade Str, Con, Int, Wis improving even more your hit, dmg, hp, fort, will and RK checks using int/wis.
LvL 10: Same from above except for Str
LvL 15: Same from above but only for Str
LvL 17: You can use an APEX to improve you Str or Con
LvL 20: You now are Str 22, Con 20, Int 20, Wis 20
In the end I'm not saying that Cha is useless for Thauma but it's just too subpar for a key stat. Due the martial chassis of the class you probably have to improve you physical stats to allow you to have a good effectiveness in combat, also that cha is not a must have stat even for RK. This even isn't really a problem once allows a player do more unconventional build without be punished by rules due it. But still strange to have a key stat with so low utility for a char chassis, maybe if the designers was made something like Divise Stratagem using cha for Exploit Vulnerability not only giving you the weakness but also allowing to use the cha to hit/dmg they could made the key stat more important and less a key stat that may be useful to have depending from the build.
Maybe this may change when I read the feats but for main chassis this is how I'm seeing the cha utility for the Thaumaturge.
Well I didn't really understand the point I'm sorry, English is not my native language, but anyway I'm thinking of going with a weapon implement at first, then mirror, the third I haven't decided yet. So would the R. Hand Crossbow be better? Thanks! Well I finished watching the part about the feats and I liked what I saw. Looking forward to the release!
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The other nice thing: this is the first class that feels janky and eclectic enough to justify the gnome flick mace as a flavor choice.
Heck, gnomes feel like a good choice for thaumaturges in general. Boosts to Charisma & Constitution are excellent for the class, and the flavor of "let's try this thing and see if it hurts this beastie" feels very on-brand for Golarion gnomes.
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@YuriP Doesn't 25% chance of your key mechanic not working seem very high? If a Ranger had a 25% chance of their Hunt Prey not working if they had a 10 Charisma (I know this doesn't make sense, just for sake of example) I guarantee you nearly everyone on this forum would say it's suboptimal to not pump Charisma. I'm not entirely convinced that, from an optimization standpoint, the benefits you get from intelligence are worth a 20% higher chance of your shtick not working.
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First thanks for the help, I haven't seen the errata about flanking yet, I also set up a gnome based on what I saw and tried to get Charisma as high as possible but I had to use voluntary failures to get Strength at 16 but Intelligence stayed at 8. ..but now I don't know if it's worth maximizing Charisma...I'm really focused on having the best character possible, and I want to go ahead and beat! I'm considering taking Sentinel as the Thaumaturge class itself has pleased me, I just want to keep my feet on the front lines.
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I would like to take this opportunity and thank you all for your patience, I really don't speak English and I'm using Google translator to be able to communicate with you. Thank you!
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I think any question of not bothering with Cha in order to pursue knowledge checks got thoroughly quashed by the revealed first level feat, Diverse Lore. You get to use Esoteric Lore on everything else at -2, and when you exploit vulnerability if your result would be a success or better if it were a knowledge check, you get a successful knowledge check result.
In addition, it's still a lore, and it auto-progresses, which means you can take Unmistakable Lore at fourth level and never crit-fail. With Dubious Knowledge, that means always getting at least one piece of info (possibly accompanied by false info) regardless of if you succeed. That still allows you a good avenue to dump Cha, but removes incentive to do it for knowledge check reasons.
I'm a little surprised not to see a Rule of Three equivalent feat.
In the PaizoCon Q&A, James Case mentioned that since the Rule of Three was such a popular feat in the playtest, it was basically baked into the core class.
I didn't fully understand the Rule of Three...
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In the end I'm not saying that Cha is useless for Thauma but it's just too subpar for a key stat. Due the martial chassis of the class you probably have to improve you physical stats to allow you to have a good effectiveness in combat, also that cha is not a must have stat even for RK. This even isn't really a problem once allows a player do more unconventional build without be punished by rules due it. But still strange to have a key stat with so low utility for a char chassis, maybe if the designers was made something like Divise Stratagem using cha for Exploit Vulnerability not only giving you the weakness but also allowing to use the cha to hit/dmg they could made the key stat more important and less a key stat that may be useful to have depending from the build.
Maybe this may change when I read the feats but for main chassis this is how I'm seeing the cha utility for the Thaumaturge.
TBH if it allows WIS or INT- focused Thaumaturges to be viable, I think it's a feature far more than a bug.
About feats:
Diverse Lore is a very interesting feat specially for those who wants to build a Thauma to really being an expert about things not only creatures and if I read right I can even bypass the RK limit to recheck due it allows the char to use Exploit a Vulnerability to do this. I simply don't know why this is a feat and not in the chassis but now this make charisma becomes really more interesting to Thauma yet I still don't put it as my primary stats maybe as tertiary (14 or 16 depending from ancestry) one.
Call Implement: OK now you could make one of Sword of Omens most iconic power kkkkkk It's fun!
Breach Defenses: Improves your Exploit Vulnerabilty in a good way allowing you to really exploit a vulnerabilty like bypassing one resistance, like ignoring Adamantine Golem physical resistances! (maybe even allowing to destroy it? I don know yet but still very good for these kind of opponents)
Share Weakness: You can share your Exploit a Vulnerability benefits to other player this basically turns the Thauma one of the best buffers in the game! It's only one action and endures while you don't use neither Exploit a Vulnerability or Share Weakness again, so it's basically choose a creature use 1-action to exploit it's weakness, use other action to also give this to an ally and now crush it! Giving such benefit to an allied fighter/barbarian/rogue/ranger would improve the party damage a LOT! Everyone will want a Thauma with this feat in the party!
Implement's Assault: It's basically the Impossible Volley with any weapon even melee ones!
Ubiquitous Weakness: Mortar Weakness to everyone!!! kkkk
Beyond these feats that others that a don't like too much (but aren't too many) and basically you gain the access to main Scroll Trickster. Ritualist and Talisman Dabbler feats making the class very versatile.
I have to admit the must fun part of Thaumaturgist for me is it's feats.
About feats:
Share Weakness: You can share your Exploit a Vulnerability benefits to other player this basically turns the Thauma one of the best buffers in the game! It's only one action and endures while you don't use neither Exploit a Vulnerability or Share Weakness again, so it's basically choose a creature use 1-action to exploit it's weakness, use other action to also give this to an ally and now crush it! Giving such benefit to an allied fighter/barbarian/rogue/ranger would improve the party damage a LOT! Everyone will want a Thauma with this feat in the party!
Worth noting that this only applies to a mortal weakness (exploiting an existing weakness), so it is not always applicable. If the enemy has no weakness or if the ally is already triggering it, this feat unfortunately won't help. But when it does come up, this does seem very worth the action.
The question on taking the feat will be how often do you think that scenario will occur?
I also loved Thaum's feats, so tasty...these to share will be my targets, I want to be the creature nerd, who hits them hard!
@YuriP Doesn't 25% chance of your key mechanic not working seem very high? If a Ranger had a 25% chance of their Hunt Prey not working if they had a 10 Charisma (I know this doesn't make sense, just for sake of example) I guarantee you nearly everyone on this forum would say it's suboptimal to not pump Charisma. I'm not entirely convinced that, from an optimization standpoint, the benefits you get from intelligence are worth a 20% higher chance of your shtick not working.
Yes but it's only for some eventual very stronger than you opponents. For mostly common cases this chances is way lower. Yet I purposely exaggerated in this example to show how the main abilities of Thauma are so low cha dependent. For example if you just put it in 18 you don't even require to improve it anymore because it's critical failure chance never goes more than 5%.
About feats:
Share Weakness: You can share your Exploit a Vulnerability benefits to other player this basically turns the Thauma one of the best buffers in the game! It's only one action and endures while you don't use neither Exploit a Vulnerability or Share Weakness again, so it's basically choose a creature use 1-action to exploit it's weakness, use other action to also give this to an ally and now crush it! Giving such benefit to an allied fighter/barbarian/rogue/ranger would improve the party damage a LOT! Everyone will want a Thauma with this feat in the party!
Worth noting that this only applies to a mortal weakness (exploiting an existing weakness), so it is not always applicable. If the enemy has no weakness or if the ally is already triggering it, this feat unfortunately won't help. But when it does come up, this does seem very worth the action.
The question on taking the feat will be how often do you think that scenario will occur?
Yes. But we have to remember how much the PF2 add weakness to the creatures. About 30% of the creates have some weakness and more higher is the level more creatures with some weakness and more stronger these weakness are. If you read some last AP book you will see a festival of weaknesses.
Curiously this is the inverse of situation of magus with AoO. kkkk
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The other nice thing: this is the first class that feels janky and eclectic enough to justify the gnome flick mace as a flavor choice.Heck, gnomes feel like a good choice for thaumaturges in general. Boosts to Charisma & Constitution are excellent for the class, and the flavor of "let's try this thing and see if it hurts this beastie" feels very on-brand for Golarion gnomes.
Yeah, though the strength penalty hurts. Although honestly I'm thinking agile weapons will be where it's at for the class, and agile weapons are often finesse too... Kukri gnome could put in work.
Yeah, though the strength penalty hurts. Although honestly I'm thinking agile weapons will be where it's at for the class, and agile weapons are often finesse too... Kukri gnome could put in work.The other nice thing: this is the first class that feels janky and eclectic enough to justify the gnome flick mace as a flavor choice.Heck, gnomes feel like a good choice for thaumaturges in general. Boosts to Charisma & Constitution are excellent for the class, and the flavor of "let's try this thing and see if it hurts this beastie" feels very on-brand for Golarion gnomes.
You can also use 1-handed reload weapons like crossbows and firearms. But even with the feat that allow one-handed reload the action consumption still hurts.
I'm quite sad that handy esoterica and incredible esoterica seem to have been cut, ill have to see if any gms i play with would allow them as is since they hardly seemed overpowered
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Finally went through the feats. Lots of sweet options, plenty of tough choices. I also wouldn't sleep on a basic familiar for Share Senses. A class like this really likes to scope enemies out ahead of time. Get your weaknesses exploited and your recall knowledge out of the way.