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Nah, it is really good, but not that good for Bards. Thing is you sacrifice not only a reaction (not that big of a deal), but an action. That means that you can't use it in turns you want to cast a spell and use a composition cantrip (together with move + cast, those are a lot of turns). Most of the time, it is better to use a composition cantrip than getting your One for All off if you need to choose (specially if you are using Lingering Composition or Inspire Heroics). I'd say it is a "11/10" if you are a Sorcerer or an Oracle, but not for a Bard. For them it is just good.

If you have a Magus, forget anything I just said and get that One for All, though.


Being realistic, what class archetypes can we actually expect besides Synthesist?

Like, I don't think we are getting specialist martial Alchemist in the forseeable future with all the Treasure Vault stuff. I also think we are getting neither Bounded Warpriest nor Bounded Bard any time soon either looking at this year releases. And these would be some of the easiest concepts to test and implement, something like a Bloodrager would be way more work on their part probably.

I expect some down the line, i just don't expect them any time soon.


After thinking a bit, I think I like the Falcata most for a sword and board fighter. It is not only an iconic look, but having a shield is also a good way of being able to stay at 5ft melee without risking yourself much. Shield feats + Knockdown would give you really good offense with the attack + AoO, CC and good defense (more AC, shield block, better reflexes and no movement based reactions is a lot of stuff).

Besides, I always wanted to try a Disarming Block + Aggresive Block (and Flinging Shove) + Shove Down build. Still having good damage when going for something like that seems really good.


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The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
Bracing feels like it'll be really good in dungeons. Either advance and attack with it down the hallway or stand firm and let the squishies hide behind you while you ready for the charge. Intelligent enemies will probably learn to avoid you, but not all enemies are intelligent or have that option.
Actually now that you mention it "it's round one and I'm gonna let them run up to me instead of wasting my actions running up to them" is a really good way to use this for a lot of foes.

We do this a lot. Works well if you have more ranged options than the enemy group.


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NGL, I kinda like more going for double Dueling Pistol/Clan Pistol and getting Thaumaturge Dedication and Ammunition Thaumaturgy for dual weapon Gunslingers, specially in a FA game (you get that going way sooner). Fixes the range issue the slide pistol has and does not lose Fatal compared to the new crossbow.

I like the new crossbow, but I think it would be better used as an offhand of sorts for mainly melee builds. I would like to have one as a Ranger, Rogue (if you get the proficiency) or even as a Swashbuckler just so I don't have to throw my main weapon to get a competent ranged weapon.

And yes, I think that I usually play with bigger than average maps and even then 200ft seems like way overkill. I'd take the Jezail most of the time.


Medic archetype is just 2 feats. They need something else.

For example, I could see something like this working in this case since they are playing with no archetype feat requirements:

Lvl 2 Medic dedication
Lvl 4 Doctor Visitation
Lvl 6 Swashbuckler dedication
Lvl 8 One for All
Lvl 10 Psychic Dedication
Lvl 12 any lvl 1 or 2 psychic feat
Lvl 14 Parallel Breakthrough (Message)

The rest could be spellcasting feats or rogue dedication for Nimble Dodge, Mobility, master reflex or extra skills (could be accelerated a bit with multitalented). I would even get the Rogue dedication stuff going earlier (either 6 or 12 maybe, and delay either Swashbuckler stuff or Message) if he wants more defenses or the skills.


Don't think the falcata is eligible, the feat only covers martial common weapons.


aobst128 wrote:
Before we had human flickmace fighters, now we have tengu falcata fighters. Or anyone really. Tengu weapon familiarity is powerful. Can bring a simple weapon class up to falcata proficiency with just a general feat and an ancestry feat. Tengu martials having easy access to the falcata at level one will probably bring out some more bird players.

Tengu Weapon familiarity can do some nice stuff. Some time ago I put together a FA fighter build as a backup character for one of my current games that managed to use Dual Slice, Flurry of Blows and Heaven's Thunder with Shortswords thanks to that feat. It gets to some ridiculous places at level 10 onwards. In the end I preferred going just monk to not fall asleep before getting there, though. Might reconsider since we just reached level 10 the other day (don't judge me, I'm playing a Sprite sorcerer, a breeze could kill me, better be prepared).

As for the falcata, while I don't think it will be as egregious as the pre-nerf Flickmace, I expect it to be quite popular.


aobst128 wrote:
That's what I was thinking. I hadn't read the description yet. Bummer.

I take it as some form of confirmation that both the inventor mod and Ammunition Thaumaturgy work when wielding 2 reload weapons, though.


aobst128 wrote:
I wonder if the gauntlet bow can technically be reloaded with the free hand attached to it. Essentially making it capacity with an infinite clip. Kinda how I figured how weapon inventors worked with the free hand mod on loaded weapons.

You can't, it is specified in the weapon description. First thing I went to check as well.


graystone wrote:
roquepo wrote:

Those are great news. Where did you get that info? Podcast?

Super happy to hear it tbh. My backup character is a Bo Staff monk with Student of Perfection and Jalmeri Heavenseeker dedications and has Monastic Archer Stance as ranged backup. Glad to hear that she will be able to fight at range with Heaven's Thunder if I get to play her.

Knights of Last Call previewed the armor and weapons sections, mundane and magic: video They go over pretty much every item. LOTS of cool mundane armor, weapons and even shields.

If you have a bo staff and use Monastic Archer Stance there IS a combo weapon you might like: the mikazuki is a combo different than the bow staff I was talking about in the first post. The bow staff is a full dex weapon [finesse, no propulsive] bow/staff while the mikazuki is a str bow/staff [no finesse, propulsive on bow] but both have parry.

Thanks! Just gave it a quick glance and everything looks amazing.

I planned the character to be 90% melee, 10% ranged, if that makes sense, so I think I will stick to the Bo Staff (for the reach, mostly). The bow staff looks super sweet in general, though. I'd like to try it out with other character.


Guess we have 2 types of chakri now, huh.

I like some of the new weapons, specially the ranged ones. Both the monk bow and the monk bow/staff are amazing additions to the game and the new gun looks amazing as long as you can get Point Blank shot. The jezail-like crossbow is also pretty good as an alternative for those who don't like guns but want to play gunslinger.

I also love the armor rune that gets around lesser cover from allies. In most games I played, we didn't have enough money to fill the property armor rune slots at mid to high levels (due to expending it on some other stuff). Now I can just gift these if I'm playing a ranged martial since they cost nothing once you hit level 11 or so.


Those are great news. Where did you get that info? Podcast?

Super happy to hear it tbh. My backup character is a Bo Staff monk with Student of Perfection and Jalmeri Heavenseeker dedications and has Monastic Archer Stance as ranged backup. Glad to hear that she will be able to fight at range with Heaven's Thunder if I get to play her.


I agree with Gesalt in that being proactive is usually a better strategy, but I wouldn't worry much about it, Bard's shell is super strong, so you are already set for success in that regard.

Looking at your party, I assume you have Dirge of Doom and/or Inspire Defense and plan to use them often.

If that's the case, Psychic dedication could work really well. You can get Guidance at level 2 and eventually Message at 12, which are great support focus spells (one of them a reaction, which is hard to come by as a caster). It is a bit weird to use til level 12 (when you can get the double focus point recharge), but it does a good job in general. No healing stuff here, sadly.

Also, just to get them out of the way, Blessed One and Medic are always good, regardless of character concept or build. If you don't want anything else, they are superb options (specially Medic).

Shadowcaster is decent just for Shadow Reservoir, makes you really versatile and gives you more space in your known spells for stuff you want.

Champion and Sentinel only work if you account for them from level 1. I understand that you are starting as level 8. If that's the case, they are pretty good, if not, skip them. If you happen to be an evil Bard, the evil champion reactions are priceless as a squishy caster, they make you a very undesireable target. Driving attention off you is way better than having Lay on Hands.

Another good option is Swashbuckler. One for All is amazing for CHA casters. You also get a movement boost that applies to fixed fly speeds, so you can save the money a Soaring Rune costs with that. No healing stuff here as well, tho.

Finally, Captivator is probably the best option if what you want is just more spells. They scale with your spell proficiency (they are innate) and they go up to level 9. You can also get them heightened in exchange of a feat and the level 14 sustain feat lets you do some unfair stuff. Btw, no paizo dev has confirmed it yet, but lots of people. me included, suspect that the dedication is supposed to be level 2 and not level 4 (the spellcasting feat is level 4, so you cannot pick it ever at that level, and we can be sure that that feat is supposed to be level 4 because you need it to pick captivating intensity at 6).

Long ago I wrote a Bard guide, it is mostly updated, feel free to check it if you want to go more in depth in my thoughts about the class.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
Stuff

I think you missed that it is a Free Archetype game. They are not losing anything by picking all of this stuff.


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gesalt wrote:
What made humans good was free/free/free/flaw/flaw on to of their good ancestry feats. With that gone and their feats easily poachable, they don't serve much of a purpose anymore unless you really need half-elf multitalented to waive prerequisites.

I'd say needing to bust a general feat early (one that does nothing when you get it, besides) and delaying Natural Ambition to 5 is a big deal for a lot of builds (like Monk or Ranger builds that need focus spell access). Humans are still good.


Squiggit wrote:

Thoughts:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Of something I'm sure, In my games I'm going to change it so it applies the persistent on normal failures. Makes it sound less underwhelming.

Among the skilled martial classes, I think Rogue is generally the best. Ruffian Rogue with INT is not that hard to pull off considering that you are still a rogue that gets evasion extremely soon, so you can forgo a bit of DEX compared to other martials and still be fine.

For example, 18STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10WIS, 14INT, 10CHA could be doable as long as you are careful with your boosts (if you go for something like this, I'd consider getting an elemental heritage if possible, since they can get Noble Resolve at 5, which can fix a bit your Will saves).

Ending up with 24STR, 16DEX, 20CON, 18WIS, 18INT, 10CHA could be a decent final stat spread for that.

If you go for Thief Rogue, stats are way easier, get DEX to 18, two 14's and one 12 for CON, WIS and INT, and just boost those. No need for STR if you do that.

As for good feats, Gang up at level 6 feels like a must. Opportune Backstab at 8 kind of the same. The thief related debilitation feat you get at 10 is pretty nuts as well.

If you are going Ruffian, consider going for Mauler Dedication. Knockdown is pretty good, as it combines offense and CC and once you get to improved knockdown, you can combo it with The Harder they Fall to great effect.

I'd also recommend the thaumaturge picking a book implement, but the class is not a very good place to start playing tbh.


25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Can I check a vod somewhere? Didn't know there was a stream, and I can't find anything about it now.

nonat stream are on vod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzbUuN16TsE

the rest of information seems to come from some article

Thanks a lot!

Btw, just built a FA Alchemical Sciences investigator going all-in on alchemy with Gunslinger dedication (And grabbing Wizard dedication early on for EA and the evocation focus spell) and looks super solid and fun to play with some of the new items.

Insight Coffee gives Investigator a much needed buff damage-wise. not much, but you can have it going on for most encounters with no action cost (or ensure it lands on an encounter every single time by expending an action), which is pretty nice.

Having a gun and bombs let's you capitalise on good rolls very consistently with Devise a stratagem. Also, some of the good new bomb looks nuts when you have a decent accuracy and a damage booster. Like, you roll badly? You use EA or the Focus Spell (and a dex based arrow strike). You roll decently but not high enough to crit? You either use a Bomb or shoot an arrow. You roll something that could crit? Bomb or Gun.

Might be better picking Alchemist dedication as well, but I worry it would be a bit backloaded and leave to be desired early on (would be hard to fit Wizard dedication).


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Can I check a vod somewhere? Didn't know there was a stream, and I can't find anything about it now.


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I don't think it is clear enough to even try to say any interpretation can be RAW. It is too unclear for that IMO. While Baarogue reading is valid, you can also interpret it like:

Use your attack roll result to determine the spell effects-> Attack roll result is a success -> Spell result is a success -> you succeed at your spell attack roll

Personally, I think RAI it is supposed to work, mostly due to the Knockdown errata. With it, you also get a second sneak attack trigger "for free" and it was explicitly edited to leave clear that the interaction is intentional.


graystone wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Did not mention Stab and Blast because it is awkward from a Rogue perpective. Needing 2 different proficiencies is hard on them and the big reason the feat was not discussed much when it was printed as a good combo feat for the class.
IMO, he bigger issue waiting till 16th level for Stab and Blast.

Yes, Triggerbrand Salvo is just better for any Rogue build, level 12 is much, much earlier and it is also easier to set up.


Did not mention Stab and Blast because it is awkward from a Rogue perpective. Needing 2 different proficiencies is hard on them and the big reason the feat was not discussed much when it was printed as a good combo feat for the class.

The part about needing the first one to hit is inconvenient indeed, but it is only really notable on PL+2 fights and onwards and as long as you have some hero points (as with regular spellstrike) it should be fine.

If you have a 50% chance of hitting at base (already counting flanking) your chances are 20% chance of strikes hit once and 30% of attempts hit twice, with 5% of the first strike only attempts being crits and 15% of the second strikes you do when hitting twice being crits (which you get to attempt half the time in this case). Worse base value than SS, better crit potential.


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It's been a while since this has been discussed, and some new bits have been thrown into the ecuation:

- Knockdown errata: What once readed like "if you strike, you apply the critical success effect of a Trip" was subject to errata in a way to make sure it is clear that you still make a trip in the process, triggering effects like Brutal Bully or The Harder they Fall. Not only the latter gets to apply sneak attack twice when rolling once, but the whole matter also sets a precedent for a similar case being in favor of the ruling.

- Triggerbrand Salvo. It has better Sneak Attack value than Spellstrike + Magical Trickster, while being usable every turn and costing just one action and a reload related action afterwards to reset it (like Triggerbrsnd Salvo + Running Reload), rendering the TGTBT argument a bit pointless. Note that combination weapons don't have exactly bad stats for Rogue Weapons and that you can get proficiency in them with Unconventional Weaponry.

What are your thoughts on this interaction in the year 2023? I personally don't really care about it working or not, I just want this discussed to increase the chance that this gets clarified once and for all once the eventual SoM errata hits.


graystone wrote:
keftiu wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

I really hope Synthesist is still on the table from Paizo, 'cuz that'd definitely help concepts like this out a lot. It's hard for a meld build to be more than a weakened martial that has access to body upgrade feats but almost no skill feats.

I don't have much to contribute, but a club or staff with the fanged rune in it lets the character sleep as a (potentially smaller) wolf as long as they have their magical stick in their mouth.

IIRC, there was chatter before Secrets of Magic even released that Synthesist would likely be a Class Archetype down the line, due to how poorly the Meld feat was received during playtesting (when it was titled Synthesist).
It's one of those rare feats that actively makes you weaker by using it so the reception is pretty deserved IMO [not that it doesn't have it's uses mind you].

Like, it is useful for out of combat movement and that's it. Hope we get Synthetist soon.


If you are going for the "re-skin an existing animal companion" route, I advise you to pick the Horse. It has the mount trait (means it can fly with you on it if you give it that type of speed and that it can use its Support benefit and move on the same turn) and has a great Benefit if you are going melee (used to work with ranged attacks as well, but it was subject to errata recently).


Air repeater biggest struggle point is the no STR to damage part tbh.

Did not mention Chakri because it is just advanced Shuriken. Strictly speaking a better option, but not by much.

Never tested Dual Weapon Warrior on a thrown Flurry build, but it is probably pretty good, specially because it gives you something decent to do when you can't afford to use Hunt Prey.


In the end, it is both the lack of agile and the low damage per hit what kills the Flurry bow Ranger, IMO. Shuriken at most levels deals more or less the same average damage than a Composite Shortbow minus the deadly trait (Which to be fair, it's not a great damage booster for most levels), but comes with the agile trait, meaning you gain a relative +1 and +2 on your second and third attacks. That combined with some party support (Like Stoke the Heart and Heroism or just having a Bard), makes for a serviceable build. If you go for Bow, as SuperBidi said, it is really hard to catch up as a Flurry Ranger compared to a normal Precision build regardless of party composition.

Precision Warden's boon is also way easier to use effectively than Flurry, let's not forget about that too. You do one strike, you are done. If your ally wants to make the most out of a Flurry Warden's Boon, they need to attack 3 times or more. Personally, I just retrain into Warden's Boon at 14 or 16 just to get into Shared Prey and pick something else before that as a Flurry Ranger, it is not worth the action cost most of the time.


SuperBidi wrote:
Lucerious wrote:
There are many comments here and I didn’t feel like reading through them all so forgive me if this has already been stated, but playing a flurry ranger who archetypes into Beastmaster for a bear companion has high damage output. As long as the bear can use it’s support benefit, that is an extra d8 damage that can become 2d8 per successful strike. It’s also a bit less complicated than using things like Spellstrike in my opinion.
It has already been mentioned. And you want to play a Precision Ranger with this build, not a Flurry one (Flurry Rangers make bad archers overall).

Yeah, if you want to play flurry at range, it's better to use Shurikens (and get some party support)

On topic, besides fundamental runes, I'd say damaging property runes (my favourite one for level 8 is the Frost Rune, less resisted than Flaming and still triggers some weaknesses), Cold Iron arrows (silver are more niche, but it never hurts having a few as well), Ghost Ammunition, skill items (unless it is an ABP game) and general good stuff like Healer's Gloves, Boots of Bounding, a wand of 2nd level Longstrider (needs TMA and your choice of Arcana or Nature) or a Fortification rune.


Edit for my previous post, ment to say Infinite Eye, not Silent Whisper when talking about Psychic damage. Just realized I had them crisscrossed in my head for some reason.


Pirate Rob wrote:

Here's the biggest thing people mess up about alignment.

"I'm doing this because I'm good aligned."

When it should be:

"I'm good aligned because I'm doing it."

Alignment shouldn't drive your behavior, just be a descriptor of it.

I'll also add that alignment cannot be an excuse for bad dinamics at a table. If you sticking to your idea of Lawful good paladin playing police on the party is making everyone else have less fun, maybe instead of shielding yourself on the alignment of your character you should just compromise a bit and adapt to the general dynamic. This is a game first and foremost afterall.


My bad, thought it was 2 actions for some reason (never got access to it as a player).

Cannot edit now, so just ignore that part. The point still holds, though. Maze is amazing and monsters suck at buffing themselves mid-combat.

graystone wrote:
Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Plane shift, so 2 actions for 2 actions.

Mind that without special abilities, the Plane Shift spell actually has a cast time of 10 minutes now. This is actually commonly overlooked in the monsters' own descriptions. I forget which but at least one monster is said to drag a foe via plane shift to a hostile environment despite the impractically long cast time for combat.

Naturally this further reinforces the point that there are very few monsters who could render a Maze spell moot, much less beneficial to themselves.

Yep, which makes the mention of plane shift as a way out silly: maze is sustained so it's got a limit of 10 min, so if you started casting plane shift as soon as you can, it's done right after you get out of the maze... :P

Now I have lots of questions about how this interacts. If you are on the Material plane and get Mazed, if you start casting Plane Shift and Maze naturally ends, what happens? Should the spell fail or do you travel from the material plane... To the material plane?


Keep in mind that my experience with these are fairly limited since they are relatively new (played levels 1 to 4 as an Oscillating Wave Psychic and I have had a Thaum in my main party from levels 5 to 10)

That said

Thaumaturge

Offense 3-4:
4 if you go for weapon implement, 3 for everything else. Damage is high-ish, but shares the same issue that Ranger has when needing to switch targets without having its action compression.

Defense 3:
Probably a bit higher if you go for the Amulet Implement, but not by much.

Support 3-4:
Counting Mid-Combat Recall Knowledge as support instead of utility. Can only reach 4 if they spec for it with implements and a few feats.

Utility 2-5:
Mostly below average at base (I consider average 3 boosted vanilla skills + some spellcasting), but can heavily spec for it. The generally worst implements are utility based (like lantern) and they can get extra skills with tome and a general purpuse Recall Knowledge tool in Diverse Lore. They can also use the scroll feats for utility purposes. A build that goes all-in on utility would suck in general, though.

Difficulty 2-4:
Hard to figure out, easy to play afterwards. Also build dependent.

In general, a well rounded class.

Psychic

Offense 2-4:
Depends a lot based on conscious mind and your level range. For example, Silent Whisper has low damage at all level ranges because it is more focused on support and Oscillating Wave is damage focused, but needs levels to reach peak performance and pay off.

Defense 1-3:
Extremely frail caster at base, but has lots of options to improve survivability. Sadly, these options are exclusive with more offensive or supportive ones.

Support 2-4:
2/3rds of an occult caster is still supportive enough to not get a 1. Depending on your build, you can become an above average support caster.

Utility 3:
You are still 2/3rds of a caster spell-wise. Utility is hard to fit, but can fit there. Can also spec a bit for it.

Difficulty 3:
Same as Thaumaturge, but less build dependent IMO.

More flawed than Thaumaturge, but gets the job done and can fit a lot of roles for a party with how flexible it is.


Deriven Firelion wrote:
roquepo wrote:
As I'm sure others pointed out, this playstyle is not something that PF2E supports very well. Has not been a thing in the past and it will probably never will. Back in pf1 this playstyle was a nightmare to deal with and it seems they don't want to mess with it at all.

It was a super fun playstyle. It was a nightmare to deal with, especially if you had unprepared players who didn't think about what they were going to do from round to round.

I still wish summoning was better though. They really need to do something with the attack roll. I wouldn't care about the 5 plus levels lower damage and other abilities if the summoned creature could land hits and do some damage in important fights. They seem to have miscalculated how well a summoned creature can hit a target the more levels it falls behind the monster levels you're fighting.

I think most people found it fun (me included), but most of the time it was extremely boring for the other players and the GM, even when you were experienced with it.

And yes, summons should definitely be better. Now that Paizo seems more proactive with errata, I really hope we eventually see a small buff to the heightened versions of these kind of spells. Will most likely not be enough for it to be like it was back in pf1, but with some help it could at least be viable in combat.


First, comparing moving with Maze's effect is disingenious. Why cast Slow or Wall of Stone, when you can just move?

This is a quick overview of some classic enemy groups that are asociated with spellcasting based on buff spells they could cast while being affected by Maze. Level 15+ creatures only.
Not counting spells like Fly, low level resist spells or instnat healing effects. The first two for obvious reasons, the latter because you are not going to damage the creature you are going to Maze.

"Scary" are creatures with at least one spell (most of them just have 1 single cast) that they would gain something out of if they cast it when mazed. Most of them would cast it turn 1 anyway and almost all of these spells are either Disappearence or Regenerate, which are easy to deal with for a party of prepared level 15+ adventurers.
"Meh" are creatures that technically have buffs, but ones you shouldn't really care that much about most of the time.
"None" means either no spells or no useful spells for when the creature is mazed
I'll also note separately creatures that get a 2 for 2 trade in actions with the spell. I'll note Plane Shift as a 2 for 2, but being fair, most likely that creature cannot arrive at your exact destination if they do that.

Spellcasting ancient dragons (Which I want to remind you all, is an optional rule)

1 scary 3
meh 2
none 3
- Ancient Silver Dragon has Plane shift, so 2 actions for 2 actions

Fiends

Demon

scary 1
meh 1**
None 3

Daemon

Scary 0
Meh 1**
None 4
- Astradaemon has Plane Shift, so 2 actions for 2 actions

Devil
Scary 1
Meh 0
None 2
- Pit Fiend has a once per year Miracle that can be turned into a dangerous buff and a 2 for 2 with Dispel Magic (should work most of the time, but it is not garanteed), so scary as long as it has that once per year effect

**The Meh ones are 2nd level invisibility at will. Really, really meh.

Lich

Scary 1****
Meh
None 1
- Runecarved Lich is the only creature I've seen which could gain advantage by being Mazed. Beyond scary.

****Demilich has scary spells, but they are free actions, so it does not gain an advantage by being mazed.

Fey

Scary 10
Meh 5*****
None 11
- Defaced Naiad Queen has Dispel Magic, which can work sometimes when facing a party as a PL+1 miniboss. Counts as meh otherwise.
- Ankou Assassin can technically gain something by casting Silence on themselves if they have already casted their dangerous offensive spells.
- Wild Hunt Scout and Spirit Turtle have Plane Shift, so 2 for 2. They are also scary on their own
- Irovetti's Fetch and Fetch Behemoth have Plane Shift, but can only use it to go to the First world from a Maze.
- Tatterhead and Norn have both Plane Shift and Dispel Magic.
- Lots of level 21+ creatures here BTW. 1 or 2 could be considered beyond scary, like the Runescarved Lich, but these are campaign-ending bosses, Maze is not there for that.

*****Marrmora can cast Fire Shield effectively by 1 action in combat, so almost no benefit for them.

I think some of you severely overestimate how many creatures in the books have good buff spells. Also, I don't get what Ranged attacks have to do with Maze. A creature inside a maze cannot attack you with ranged attacks.


Deriven Firelion wrote:
Bon Mot is a nice set up for will save spells. One action for a -2 penalty and you can follow it up with a 2 action Will Save spell. Very nice.

Since you were talking about spells that feel like pf1 spells earlier, have you seen Maze in action? Bon Mot + Maze can turn dual boss encounters or boss + minion type encounters into non-threats if you are willing to expend 2 or 3 slots. On anything but a Crit success it "wastes" at least 4 enemy actions. (enemy can still buff itself or heal when it is in the maze, so it is not a complete waste of actions).


As I'm sure others pointed out, this playstyle is not something that PF2E supports very well. Has not been a thing in the past and it will probably never will. Back in pf1 this playstyle was a nightmare to deal with and it seems they don't want to mess with it at all.


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If you want an archetype that messes with time shenanigans, I recommend Chronoskimmer instead. It has Guide the Timeline and Steal Time, which are pretty good.

Is that character going to be played in a FA game? If that's the case, you can go for both archetypes and not loose much in the process. Bard base feats are really good, so it is a bit difficult to archetype into stuff if you are not in a FA game.


Ok, my 2 cents.

1. Starlit Span Magus with Psychic dedication. Completely online at level 6 with imaginary weapon, it is 100% the best option damage wise.

2. Precision Ranger with Animal Companion. You need Hunted Shot, the base AC feat so you can apply the precision damage with your animal partner's attacks and Beastmaster archetype for a faster AC progression (it also allows you to swap ACs based on the situation and the extra movement you get with the level 4 ability is not restricted based on who is your prey). Better done as Human due to Natural Ambition. Not only does good damage, but adds a body in the frontlines and can get supportive feats through Warden's Boon and the likes.

3. Eldritch Archer Fighter. Best way of building this is getting a caster archetype at 2, grab a good attack roll focus spell and delay Eldritch Archer dedication to level 8. Sacrificing those 2 levels will set you up for success for the remaining ones. You can also retrain if you know you will be given the time. Pick debilitating Shot at 10 as well.

4. Fighter with Ranger Dedication. Grab Hunted Shot ASAP. You are now a ranger with a +2 to attack edge. Try to pick anything that boosts your damage along the way, like Gravity Weapon. If Treasure Vault adds a bow with the monk trait and you are starting at level 10+, Fighter with Monk dedication, Monastic Archer Stance and Flurry of Blows would also work, which would allow you to use Heavenseeker's Heaven's Thunder, which you can fit at level 12.

5. Not sure what I would put here to be honest. I can think of more good ranged builds, just not bow ones specifically. I guess either Flurry Ranger or Weapon Inventor, but the first is not close at all to the other 4 and the later just uses a bow, but it is not a particularly good archer, it's strength lies elsewhere. I also considered Eldritch Archer Investigator, but I think it is a direct, inferior version of the fighter build.


Gortle wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Ngl, if I were to give one stat the "God stat status", I think that would be WIS, not DEX.
It is poretty good. When the player work out they don't have to use Wisdom for initiative it opens it up a lot more.

Even when leaving initiative out of the question it is pretty bonkers as a stat. Will, Perception and skills like Medicine or Religion goes a long way.


Ngl, if I were to give one stat the "God stat status", I think that would be WIS, not DEX.

As for the question at hand, I think Precision Ranger is the only one that can opt for Finesse weapons as their main option. They can make use of the thrown trait as ranged backup pretty well. For the others that can actually make the choice, it is either DEX and Ranged or STR and melee.

I don't really like DEX monks that much. Starting with 18 STR/14 DEX just puts you 1 AC behind of most other martials (no champion or heavy armor basically) for 4 levels out of 20 and above them for the last 6. 100% on par or above if you start with 16 DEX. Monk already deals low damage, every point of STR or on hit damage counts.


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Yes, it is an ancestry feat. It also has follow-up feats as well for making it stronger.


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I like Lizardfolk with the Adopted Ancestry general feat for Kobold or a planar versatile heritage to fill the dragonborn niche.


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As I see it, this is more of a "we don't want our system to be part of a possible issue" kind of thing. They are not addressing it directly, they just want to not be a part of it (same thing Paizo did with the slavery thing some time ago).

As another user pointed out in another thread (can't remember who, sorry), there where 2 issues with the previous system. The first was mostly a mechanical one, and that is that certain classes just don't work with certain ancestries. A Dwarf Thaumarurge has to sacrifice a lot just to reach a playable status, and then you are left with a flawed character. Flawed characters are cool, but not everyone wants to play one, sometimes people just want to feel strong playing pretend and that that feeling was sometimes not compatible with playing the class and ancestry you wanted sucked.

The second issue comes with how voluntary flaws or ancestries with flaws, optimizing and stats in general work. Most of the time, characters used them for the boost and not for the flaws. That ends with flawed characters played by players that most likely don't care much about that flawed nature and just want a power gain. Due to how stats work, STR, INT and CHA will be chosen most of the time as the dump stat of choice. In most cases this ends up fine, but overall this causes an overabundance of "weak", "grumpy/awkward" and "dumb" characters that eventually will be played by someone that will represent these flaws in such a way that may hurt other players due to parallels that you can trace between some of the game ancestries and some IRL ethnities, minorities or demographics. The thing that these changes accomplish is that the game is no longer making these situations more common.

TL,DR: The change is a solution to a mechanical issue the system had that also tries to be less of an incentive for hurtful roleplay.


Squiggit wrote:
Unicore wrote:
just as twin take down and hunted shot are not good choices if you are not a flurry ranger.
Uh, what? They absolutely are.

They are not only good choices, they are best in slot as long as you fulfill the weapon requirement regardless of edge.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

From the perspective of an optimizer who focuses on combat, none of us take Monster Hunter.

If your GM makes it useful, could be fun. If not, then pick something else.

Monster hunter Outwit is a good party buffer at levels 10+, great even if the rest of the party relies on single hits to deal damage (Like a party with a Starlit Span Magus, a Precision Crossbow Ranger and a Bard), as the buff it gives is a circumstance bonus and thus stacks with Heroism or Inspire Courage/Heroics. Issue is that pre level 10 Outwit is very subpar and its monster identification niche is eclipsed by the Thaumaturge, that does its job ten times better.

It technically has a place in optimised scenarios, but that place is very obscure.


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I think a "social" stat of sorts that autoscales like Perception could be ok, but I think RP and social challenges need to be redesigned completely from the ground and separated from skills alltogether for them to feel actually good to roll dice on. Something like being its own subsystem of rules, with some stat/skill elements improving your chances, but mostly being independent from them.

I'm quite bad at this kind of stuff, but something like a set of flat DCs depending on how aligned the NPC is to what you are saying, what you are requesting or how you are carrying yourself modified slighly by some other stats (Like CHA or WIS) that add a small mod to the check. During an interaction with an NPC, you could need to beat a few of these to get what you want (something like getting a certain amount of them right).

As for what to do now, my group and I just talk things out with NPCs and only roll diplomacy or deception in social encounters when we are trying to convince someone on something with decently high stakes or clearly lie to them. Whe have been doing that for ages now and it feels much better tbh.


Karmagator wrote:
Alchemic_Genius wrote:

My houserule for about a year and a half was that all ancestries got 3 free boost, 1 flaw, and the flaw can be put into one of the boost stats to make it functionally 2 free no flaw.

Amazingly, the game hasn't been shattered or flooded with elves or what have you; it just resulted in players picking the ancestry that excited them and mixing it with the class that excited them. The sacred balance of set ancestry boosts turned out to be an illusion, too; because weirdly, all of the stats are good. While I've observed a degree of cha and str dumping, there's been a tendancy for people who do dump these stats to feel the consequences of their actions pretty often; uncommon items are usually barred behind social checks (since they need to find them and the best way to do that is gather information), many conflicts can be avoided/made easier with cha checks, with some tasks being downright impossible without the help of others (like holding a city, fighting a siege, etc). Str comes in play a lot because my maps frequently make use of verticality and/or water, and while the DCs aren't usually overly difficult, str dumping does add a level of difficulty, while good str enjoys the ability to use the terrain.

While these obstacles can all be overcome with proper feats, gear, spells, dumping str or cha for minmaxing purposes comes with enough of a cost that it's not the default dump stat choice

Same here, pretty much. My group has 6 people - my brother and I take turns GMing on different days. We have experimented with the free/free/free/flaw array for about all of last year. With a few playtests, weird extra sessions and excessive "spare" character building, we went through quite a few characters. Two members are almost exclusively RP-focused, so they just took the original stats from the books. Three of us care quite a bit about optimization, but went almost exclusively with free/free. Only one of us made real use of the optional stat array to have flaws, sometimes for...

Honestly, I would like to give this a try, looks like a decent middle point. Are you sure it is not too strong?


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Just saw the tweet. I don't know hot to interpret it tbh. Most likely it means no more +2/+2/free/-2 ancestries, but I could also see it as them being just on board with "suggested" arrays, as the original tweet puts it.

I like having the option of free/free, but I think it would be a shame if we don't get more ancestries with built-in penalties. They are just fun to build around.


I'm pretty sure that the wave of ancestries that came with LO:IL was set before the errata decision. Wouldn't be surprised if we never see another set/free ancestry ever again. I would also not be surprised if we see these ancestries get errata-ed in the future so they get set/set/free/flaw stat arrays.


Squiggit wrote:
The extra actions add up a lot more than I think you give them credit for.

And I don't think you are giving enough credit to the spell forcing a Will save. It is a level 3 spell, yo get it at level 5. Chances are that most enemies at that level have a Fort save beteeen 2 to 4 points higher than Will. The main point of using Slow is disabling the most problematic enemy even if you just get a success. This spell is better when the enemy succeeds, and it is more likely to get to the failure effect, even if it requires a sustain to get slowed going. The sustain action is bad, but I think the frightened and spread effect compensate for it.

Quote:
...IMO the most interesting and potent thing about the spell is that it's Divine, which is the one spell list that doesn't natively get Slow.

Yes, that's big as well.

Quote:
Couldn't you flip that around and say that instead of sustaining Ennui, you could just cast Dirge and apply the same fear effect but in an AoE?

Thing is that not all classes are Bard. I wouldn't pick this as a Bard for obvious reasons. But sorcerers, Witches, Wizards, Oracles, Clerics... I think they would be way more interested in this.

The point I was trying to make is that if you remove the sustain with the fear and the spread effect, you would get better slow strictly speaking (yes, mental trait is a bummer, but creatures that are going to be immune to it are easy to figure out, since it is mostly mindless), and the other effect is super worth using for 1 action on its own.

siegfriedliner wrote:
and its upgrade is worse than slows.

I also think it's worse, but I also think slow 6 is arguably the strongest spell of the game in relation to its level (either Slow 6 or Magic Weapon), so no surprise in that regard.


This spell got released with the Kingmaker Companion guide. Haven't had the opportunity to test it yet in a game, but isn't it a bit too much on paper?

On a success, it is better Slow strictly speaking. Double the range and targets will for the same effect.

On a failure, in exchange for needing sustain, the spell adds permanent frightened 1 as long as you sustain it and every turn it can cause other creature to gain slowed 1 for a turn. I think I would take the trade-off every time.

To put it differently, I don't see the sustain as a sustain, but as the spell giving you single target cast of Dirge of Doom that can cause slowed on top to creatures other than your target. If you see it like that it sounds a bit concerning, isn't it? The immediate effect os stacking slowed + frightened is also big.

The level 5 version effect seems pretty good as well, but it is not as easy to compare to Slow 6 as the non-heightened version is with Slow 3.

I just want to know other people opinion on this. Slow already is one of the strongest spells in the game and this seems like setting the bar even higher than that.

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