While building out my thaumaturge guide, and looking for archetypes that synergies well, I found the Drow Shootist. They have a level 6 feat (only requires the dedication as a prerequisite) and allows you to reload and shoot a hand crossbow as a single action. Seems to solve our action economy problem with hand crossbows no? And leaves room free for a wounding rune or fire rune or whatever.
All I wanted was an official drow already released...well, no one can be perfect...
Is it worth losing Strength damage to use such a crossbow? Even having to invest in the feat?
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The problem with thrown builds, imo, is that before you can get a returning rune your action economy is really bad compared to someone with a repeater or a ranged unarmed attack. Once you get a returning rune things look better, but then you're down a property rune slot. Once flaming runes come online the bonus damage from strength is almost just wiped out by the extra rune the other guy has.
Then the higher level you get, the less relevant that bonus damage becomes anyways.
That's not to say throwing weapons are terrible, but there's only a narrow window of levels where they really stand out.
The problem with thrown builds, imo, is that before you can get a returning rune your action economy is really bad compared to someone with a repeater or a ranged unarmed attack. Once you get a returning rune things look better, but then you're down a property rune slot. Once flaming runes come online the bonus damage from strength is almost just wiped out by the extra rune the other guy has.
Then the higher level you get, the less relevant that bonus damage becomes anyways.
That's not to say throwing weapons are terrible, but there's only a narrow window of levels where they really stand out.
Thrown weapons generally work better for switch hitting than always being at range, IMO.
Thrown builds stand out for the thaumaturge thanks to their limited one handed ranged options. The thing that competes with them is pretty much just the air repeater and the repeating hand crossbow that needs an archetype investment. Still probably a good idea to go for champion for blade ally to fit in your damaging runes.
Also helps with the armor... and you don't have to upgrade the blade ally once you get it, because returning comes standard.
Is there any way to get a thrown weapon that takes accuracy off of Strength? Being able to just dump dex seems like it would be useful here.
Is there any way to get a thrown weapon that takes accuracy off of Strength?
Aklys/Bola using Ranged Trip makes an Athletics skill check at -2 and that roll is STR.
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Is there any way to get a thrown weapon that takes accuracy off of Strength? Being able to just dump dex seems like it would be useful here.
Nope. There's a trait to do this (Brutal), but no PC-accessible option has this trait.
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Other options would be Kitsune Foxfire or Sprite Spark, to keep the magical feel of maining your Wand. Range is limited, and unfortunately not valid Weapon Implements, but should work with Implement Empowerment.
There's also the possibility of Mind Smith's Mind Projectiles, though that's not until level 8. Still range limited (though 30 feet rather than 20), and the later level for range is a bit annoying, but you get free reign over the flavor of the attack (mechanically a bit limited but still) and as a physical (if malleable) weapon you might be able to make the case to your GM that it would be a valid Weapon Implement. Also gives you a melee option (which can even be Finesse to keep the Strength down) in case they do close in with AoOs. Use a feat to add Modular and between that and a fully enhanced Wand you'll be able to naturally target all sorts of existing Weaknesses, on top of your Mind Weapon strikes being able to exploit Personal Antithesis.
A pity that Kitsune and Sprite options won't work with Cursed Effigy, or have much range.
So what are the options for a Wand focused character wanting to keep to range?
A hand crossbow, a Champion dedication with a 6th level feat to get a returning weapon, Kitsune and Sprite unarmed feats though they can't benefit from Cursed Effigy, same with Automaton, Leshy as well though it can do physical damage so even though the range/damage is terrible it can at least trigger Cursed Effigy, Mindsmith which sounds pretty bad but has feats to at least get a ranged melee? strike.
Anything else? Any of them an actual good option?
I really wish Handwraps would work with Weapon Implement. And/Or that pretty much anything else Thaumaturge could do would actually interact well with Wand.
A pity that Kitsune and Sprite options won't work with Cursed Effigy, or have much range.
So what are the options for a Wand focused character wanting to keep to range?
A hand crossbow, a Champion dedication with a 6th level feat to get a returning weapon, Kitsune and Sprite unarmed feats though they can't benefit from Cursed Effigy, same with Automaton, Leshy as well though it can do physical damage so even though the range/damage is terrible it can at least trigger Cursed Effigy, Mindsmith which sounds pretty bad but has feats to at least get a ranged melee? strike.
Anything else? Any of them an actual good option?
I really wish Handwraps would work with Weapon Implement. And/Or that pretty much anything else Thaumaturge could do would actually interact well with Wand.
Drow Shootist Dedication for the Shootist's Draw action: between that and Ammunition Thaumaturgy, you can fire your hand crossbow and use your wand every round you aren't moving or using Exploit Vulnerability.
Yeah I wanted to go Sprite, or maybe Kitsune, and fling some fire/cold/lightning at someone but between not being able to use Handwraps as a Weapon Implement and not being able to use those natural unarmed attacks to trigger Cursed Effigy kind of puts a damper on it. Sadly Cursed Effigy seems to be the only feat to benefit the Wand, was really hoping the final version would have had something to help it, kind of surprised it didn't seem to be improved after all the negative reactions to it in the playtest.
My plan was mainline Wand, then maybe Regalia since it has some good passive bonuses though I don't remember if they would help Wand, and maybe Lantern? I like the idea of a Sprite holding a scepter/wand and wearing either a crown or regal cloak for Regalia.
Tome could be good as well, but seems like it really needs to be a primary Implement to really benefit.
Would you be shifting between Bell and Wand in hand then? Since you would need a hand for your weapon.
A Sprite with tinkling bells seems like a good image too.
Hmm looking at Implements again, and I guess Regalia is technically more like a Scepter even though the name makes me think of things like crowns and robes. I feel like that is visually kind of similar to the Wand. Though Regalia can be an orb or banner as well.
It seems like Bell could be good for the reaction on a strike to give a penalty to reflex, but most of the rest seems less useful directly toward Wand. Regalia has the benefit of a small bonus to some skills and a status bonus to damage eventually, though not until fairly high levels if Wand is primary.
Yeah I wanted to go Sprite, or maybe Kitsune, and fling some fire/cold/lightning at someone but between not being able to use Handwraps as a Weapon Implement and not being able to use those natural unarmed attacks to trigger Cursed Effigy kind of puts a damper on it. Sadly Cursed Effigy seems to be the only feat to benefit the Wand, was really hoping the final version would have had something to help it, kind of surprised it didn't seem to be improved after all the negative reactions to it in the playtest.
My plan was mainline Wand, then maybe Regalia since it has some good passive bonuses though I don't remember if they would help Wand, and maybe Lantern? I like the idea of a Sprite holding a scepter/wand and wearing either a crown or regal cloak for Regalia.
Tome could be good as well, but seems like it really needs to be a primary Implement to really benefit.
As far as the Sprite/Kitsune thing goes... if you're not PFS, talk with your GM. There's no guarantee they'll say yes, but it doesn't hurt to ask. It's in the "reasonable houserules" territory. If I were running I'd probably say yes to such a request unless the player who was asking was already the strongest optimizer in the group. (The gain is pretty marginal, but there is, arguably, gain there.)
Hold up, if you just have one implement and it is a weapon, how do you empower it? Can you trace mystic patterns with the weapon you're swinging?
I was pretty sure Jezails wouldn't work with Implement Empowerment but now I'm not so sure.
As far as the Sprite/Kitsune thing goes... if you're not PFS, talk with your GM. There's no guarantee they'll say yes, but it doesn't hurt to ask. It's in the "reasonable houserules" territory. If I were running I'd probably say yes to such a request unless the player who was asking was already the strongest optimizer in the group. (The gain is pretty marginal, but there is, arguably, gain there.)Yeah I wanted to go Sprite, or maybe Kitsune, and fling some fire/cold/lightning at someone but between not being able to use Handwraps as a Weapon Implement and not being able to use those natural unarmed attacks to trigger Cursed Effigy kind of puts a damper on it. Sadly Cursed Effigy seems to be the only feat to benefit the Wand, was really hoping the final version would have had something to help it, kind of surprised it didn't seem to be improved after all the negative reactions to it in the playtest.
My plan was mainline Wand, then maybe Regalia since it has some good passive bonuses though I don't remember if they would help Wand, and maybe Lantern? I like the idea of a Sprite holding a scepter/wand and wearing either a crown or regal cloak for Regalia.
Tome could be good as well, but seems like it really needs to be a primary Implement to really benefit.
I like the idea of a Sprite, would probably work with a Kitsune as well, with a ranged unarmed strike that was a swirl of razor sharp leaves.
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Would you be shifting between Bell and Wand in hand then? Since you would need a hand for your weapon.
You don't need a hand if you're using foxfire/sprite's spark. The main benefit of using these unarmed attacks is that you don't need the weapon implement and can pick something else (bell, in this case).
Yeah but the problem with those unarmed attacks, at least the actual real legal versions and not some made up flashing slashing leaves, is that they don't deal physical damage and can't trigger Cursed Effigy which is the only Thaumaturge feat that even remotely helps Wand implement.
And aobst128 did bring up a good point in that both the Bell and Wand have distinct actions/reactions and thus can be switched for free once per round as part of the action/reaction taken to use them.
Cursed Effigy should work on the Tengu Feather Fan to let you give debuffs to the save against Electric Arc (or whatever cantrip you can get from a Heritage or Ancestry Feat) as it is technically coming from an item using your Thaumaturge Class DC. Might be difficult to fit in if you can't use it as an implement (maybe Regalia or even Wand would work? Regalia is probably the closest) but cool regardless.
Maybe I missed it but can you use magic items for Implements? Other than probably magic weapons.
I am not exactly sure what you are trying to do with the Tengu Feather Fan. You would need to make a physical strike to use Cursed Effigy. I am not sure if any spells from the fan would use the Thaumaturge class DC, maybe with another feat, but the Fan doesn't seem to give you cantrips and only gives very limited uses of specific spells depending on the feats you spend on it.
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Maybe I missed it but can you use magic items for Implements? Other than probably magic weapons.
I am not exactly sure what you are trying to do with the Tengu Feather Fan. You would need to make a physical strike to use Cursed Effigy. I am not sure if any spells from the fan would use the Thaumaturge class DC, maybe with another feat, but the Fan doesn't seem to give you cantrips and only gives very limited uses of specific spells depending on the feats you spend on it.
It isn't crystal clear. The implement you start with is mundane, but otherwise can be replaced with an item of the same general type by spending downtime. It seems pretty clear that this could be a magic weapon for the weapon implement, so I don't see why this couldn't be a relevant magic item for the others.
But expect table variation and maybe some PFS guidelines.
Now we just need a magic wand that actually enhances the Wand implement action.
It's your implement. As long as it's one handed, I don't see why it wouldn't work with empowerment. Jezail would work as long as you keep a free hand.Hold up, if you just have one implement and it is a weapon, how do you empower it? Can you trace mystic patterns with the weapon you're swinging?
I was pretty sure Jezails wouldn't work with Implement Empowerment but now I'm not so sure.
I guess what I'm hung up on is the tracing myself patterns at the same time as you're striking with the same object. It seems awfully convenient if those patterns also line up with hitting the enemy.
On the other hand, it would be bizarre if the weapon implement didn't benefit from the baseline feature for powering up implements.
Cursed Effigy should work on the Tengu Feather Fan to let you give debuffs to the save against Electric Arc (or whatever cantrip you can get from a Heritage or Ancestry Feat) as it is technically coming from an item using your Thaumaturge Class DC. Might be difficult to fit in if you can't use it as an implement (maybe Regalia or even Wand would work? Regalia is probably the closest) but cool regardless.
Does the fan require that you hold it?
It *does* require that you have access to the ancestry, and that you have feathers, which can make the bit where you grab other cantrips a bit tricky.
Maybe I missed it but can you use magic items for Implements? Other than probably magic weapons.
I am not exactly sure what you are trying to do with the Tengu Feather Fan. You would need to make a physical strike to use Cursed Effigy. I am not sure if any spells from the fan would use the Thaumaturge class DC, maybe with another feat, but the Fan doesn't seem to give you cantrips and only gives very limited uses of specific spells depending on the feats you spend on it.
The fan allows you to "Activate the fan to cast a cantrip you've gained from a heritage or ancestry feat" using your class DC, which in this case would be Thaumaturge.
Cursed Effigy: "As long as you are Exploiting Vulnerability against that creature, it takes a –2 status penalty to its saving throws against thaumaturge abilities or items that use your thaumaturge class DC."
In this case Electric Arc would be cast from an item that uses your thaumaturge DC, so the enemy would take a -2 penalty to saves against it.
Obviously you would still need to do damage with a physical Strike. Are people generally ruling that ranged works for that by the way? Seems weird given it says "After your attack, you grab a bit of blood, cut hair, or other piece of the creature’s body." But it's true the requirements don't say anything about a melee Strike.
Does the fan require that you hold it?
It *does* require that you have access to the ancestry, and that you have feathers, which can make the bit where you grab other cantrips a bit tricky.
It's kind of vague, it requires an interact action to activate it and there is a PFS note saying it's a held item but depends on your GM I guess.
Adopted Ancestry should get you whatever cantrips you need I think, but luckily the best cantrip is baked into a Tengu heritage.
Cursed Effigy should work on the Tengu Feather Fan to let you give debuffs to the save against Electric Arc (or whatever cantrip you can get from a Heritage or Ancestry Feat) as it is technically coming from an item using your Thaumaturge Class DC. Might be difficult to fit in if you can't use it as an implement (maybe Regalia or even Wand would work? Regalia is probably the closest) but cool regardless.Does the fan require that you hold it?
It *does* require that you have access to the ancestry, and that you have feathers, which can make the bit where you grab other cantrips a bit tricky.
Yeah just to follow up on the PFS note - activating a held item requires you to be wielding it if the activation requires Interacting - so this the intent is that it takes up a hand.
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Implement swapping feels a little weird when it comes to passive implements. Per the various examples, if my implements are Tome, Bell, and Chalice... I can have my Tome out, then on my enemy's turn switch to Bell to activate its reaction, then at the start of my turn switch to my Chalice and take a sip.
But then if I want to go back to holding my Tome, I have to either drop my Chalice on the floor and spend an action to draw the Tome, or spend an action to stow the Chalice and another to draw the Tome.
I guess the idea is that it adds a bit of a premium to the passive bonuses from those implements, but it feels weird imo that I can endlessly rotate between active/reactive implements at no cost, but switching back to a passive one takes most of my turn.
It also has the side effect of making two passive implements feel like categorically a bad decision.
Thinking about very different characters, for Cursed Effigy, would a leshy be ideal? Using wand as the first implement or another would be more interesting? (I have to stop following this discussion, every new post my character ideas change!!!!!)
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Implement swapping feels a little weird when it comes to passive implements. Per the various examples, if my implements are Tome, Bell, and Chalice... I can have my Tome out, then on my enemy's turn switch to Bell to activate its reaction, then at the start of my turn switch to my Chalice and take a sip.
But then if I want to go back to holding my Tome, I have to either drop my Chalice on the floor and spend an action to draw the Tome, or spend an action to stow the Chalice and another to draw the Tome.
I guess the idea is that it adds a bit of a premium to the passive bonuses from those implements, but it feels weird imo that I can endlessly rotate between active/reactive implements at no cost, but switching back to a passive one takes most of my turn.
It also has the side effect of making two passive implements feel like categorically a bad decision.
That feels like an oversight. I think the intention is that as long as you have one hand dedicated to it you can shuffle between your implements and esoterica without fail. There's no real reason switching implements to use a reaction should be harder than switching back to use a passive.
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That feels like an oversight. I think the intention is that as long as you have one hand dedicated to it you can shuffle between your implements and esoterica without fail. There's no real reason switching implements to use a reaction should be harder than switching back to use a passive.Implement swapping feels a little weird when it comes to passive implements. Per the various examples, if my implements are Tome, Bell, and Chalice... I can have my Tome out, then on my enemy's turn switch to Bell to activate its reaction, then at the start of my turn switch to my Chalice and take a sip.
But then if I want to go back to holding my Tome, I have to either drop my Chalice on the floor and spend an action to draw the Tome, or spend an action to stow the Chalice and another to draw the Tome.
I guess the idea is that it adds a bit of a premium to the passive bonuses from those implements, but it feels weird imo that I can endlessly rotate between active/reactive implements at no cost, but switching back to a passive one takes most of my turn.
It also has the side effect of making two passive implements feel like categorically a bad decision.
Yeah, I added this to the errata thread: it seems odd that some implements don't get the swap and even active ones might not get the swap like a weapon implement Striking [as it's action is a reaction].
Swapping to an implement to activate a reaction is specifically mentioned, though if we want to get pedantic, the free action to do so never uses the word trigger, which is potentially problematic.
The issue with passive implements definitely feels wrong, but it's a lot clearer and also exactly how the ability functioned in the playtest too. So maybe that's what Paizo wants from the ability.
Swapping to an implement to activate a reaction is specifically mentioned, though if we want to get pedantic, the free action to do so never uses the word trigger, which is potentially problematic.
When I mentioned Weapon, I was taking about swap not working for a normal strike on your turn but working on your reaction out of turn. I wasn't debating if the swap worked with the reaction.
It's your implement. As long as it's one handed, I don't see why it wouldn't work with empowerment. Jezail would work as long as you keep a free hand.Hold up, if you just have one implement and it is a weapon, how do you empower it? Can you trace mystic patterns with the weapon you're swinging?
I was pretty sure Jezails wouldn't work with Implement Empowerment but now I'm not so sure.
I guess what I'm hung up on is the tracing myself patterns at the same time as you're striking with the same object. It seems awfully convenient if those patterns also line up with hitting the enemy.
On the other hand, it would be bizarre if the weapon implement didn't benefit from the baseline feature for powering up implements.
Is no one else hung up on this? I'm having such a hard time picturing what is happening in fiction.
Is no one else hung up on this? I'm having such a hard time picturing what is happening in fiction.It's your implement. As long as it's one handed, I don't see why it wouldn't work with empowerment. Jezail would work as long as you keep a free hand.Hold up, if you just have one implement and it is a weapon, how do you empower it? Can you trace mystic patterns with the weapon you're swinging?
I was pretty sure Jezails wouldn't work with Implement Empowerment but now I'm not so sure.
I guess what I'm hung up on is the tracing myself patterns at the same time as you're striking with the same object. It seems awfully convenient if those patterns also line up with hitting the enemy.
On the other hand, it would be bizarre if the weapon implement didn't benefit from the baseline feature for powering up implements.
It doesn't really say that you trace them onto your weapon; it seems reasonable that you could trace sigils into the air every so often with your weapon to keep it empowered, rather than on it.
When you Strike, you can trace mystic
patterns with an implement you’re holding to empower
the Strike,
Where does that leave the fatal aim trait? Can you trace with your second handin the weird quasi 1 handed mode?
I guess what I'm hung up on is the tracing myself patterns at the same time as you're striking with the same object. It seems awfully convenient if those patterns also line up with hitting the enemy.
On the other hand, it would be bizarre if the weapon implement didn't benefit from the baseline feature for powering up implements.
I don't have the final book yet so there's a chance it changed, but I know the playtest version explicitly allowed drawing the symbols with a free hand, specifically so you could still get teh bonus if your first implement is a weapon you're actively using. It also explicitly forbade using the implement you're striking with so if you were dual-wielding you could Empower your offhand Strikes but not your Implement strikes. If something about that has been changed I welcome anyone with the book to correct.
Where does that leave the fatal aim trait? Can you trace with your second handin the weird quasi 1 handed mode?I don't see why not. The hand is still technically free even if it functions similarly to a 1+ handed weapon.
It’s possible to hold the stock of this weapon under one arm so you can fire it with a single hand as long as the other hand isn’t holding a weapon, shield, or anything else you would [bold]need to move and position,[/bold] to ensure the weapon doesn’t slip out from under your arm.
Tracing patterns requires moving and positioning, but technically you aren't holding anything to do it...
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you're still holding the jezail in one hand, even if it's also under your arm.
So you wiggle the barrel around and then shoot someone. Probably not the most elegant process, but it's there.
Jezail seems like kind of a terrible weapon for thaumaturges regardless though. GM is free to rule you can't hold a second implement while using one and you're never going to want to go into two-handed mode.