Premature discussion about the Thaumaturge


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Scarab Sages

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PAIZO officially let YouTuber Nonat1 reveal and review much of the Thaumaturge, seen HERE.. He doesn’t get get to the feats, but we now know how much of the class base chassis works. So. . .

Discussion time!

As a side note, using this video and the playtest I have been working on an unofficial PFS guide for the thaumaturge, so the alpha build should be ready as soon as the PDF is available for download.


A few things I love...

First of all, most of the implements are very flavorful. The class seems to have a very solid base to it (if a little squishy), so I don't think taking even the weakest implement choices is going to hurt you too much.

Second of all, and by far the most important, the demesne capstone feat is no longer a tiny 20x20 hut, but instead a 10,000 square feet sprawling mansion that far exceeds the space of the spell version.


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This reddit thread compiles the information and saves you from the agony of having to watch that video.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Even though we haven't seen most of the feats yet, I am very happy with the core features of the class and the implements. They added a lot and removed/changed very little. The only disappointment for me is probably how Exploit Vulnerability doesn't use Recall Knowledge. This class will heavily utilize Recall Knowledge on the majority of builds but the rules still haven't been cleared up.

Esoteric Lore is awesome.

They added an implement upgrade by default and it looks like there is still a feat that will get you adept on your 3rd implement, so that is great.

Intensify Vulnerability gives every implement a handy 1-action ability.

I'm totally stoked the bell implement actually debuffs and isn't the pseudo-counterspell I imagined from what was hinted at PaizoCon.

Automatically getting master in fortitude with the auto crit success on a success is great while keeping legendary in will saves.

All the new implements are awesome. They really allow this class to do anything well (maybe not great or the best but well). It's obviously a martial and then you can opt into "spellcasting", skills and utility, various facets of support, healing...it's just about got it all.

One thing that's not clear to me and maybe someone can answer it for me: Do you have to not have any base proficiency for the day-to-day skill proficiencies you choose for Tome. If so, that's pretty weak if you manage to get trained in most or all of the skills. I know Lore skills would still be available but those can be very situational and GM dependent on how they are used.


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John R. wrote:
One thing that's not clear to me and maybe someone can answer it for me: Do you have to not have any base proficiency for the day-to-day skill proficiencies you choose for Tome. If so, that's pretty weak if you manage to get trained in most or all of the skills. I know Lore skills would still be available but those can be very situational and GM dependent on how they are used.

I feel like just not aiming to be trained in all the skills when you're planning on taking Tome is the easiest way to get around this. Especially since not being trained in all the skills is actually quite easy to do, especially if you want anything above Trained (which is highly recommended).


Can someone explain the Wand to me? It seems like it would feel really bad to use compared to a cantrip.


I have seen many try to explain the wand. Try and fail.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
Can someone explain the Wand to me? It seems like it would feel really bad to use compared to a cantrip.

I think the wand sucks at the initiate level but once you get it to adept you are able to switch between two damage types and inflict a debuff or persistent damage on an enemy's normal failure, not just a critical failure like most cantrips. Once it gets to paragon level, its a spammable mini-fireball with adjustable damage types and rider effects. That sounds awesome to me but I'm still pretty green when actually playing the game.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Shinigami02 wrote:
John R. wrote:
One thing that's not clear to me and maybe someone can answer it for me: Do you have to not have any base proficiency for the day-to-day skill proficiencies you choose for Tome. If so, that's pretty weak if you manage to get trained in most or all of the skills. I know Lore skills would still be available but those can be very situational and GM dependent on how they are used.
I feel like just not aiming to be trained in all the skills when you're planning on taking Tome is the easiest way to get around this. Especially since not being trained in all the skills is actually quite easy to do, especially if you want anything above Trained (which is highly recommended).

Well my idea was I could do something like, get only trained in Medicine, enough to take Battle Medicine but let Tome take care of leveling it up when needed for the day, without having to actually invest in the higher proficiencies. That way I can get the higher healing from Medicine but only on days when I need it.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Saves got bumped up, they now start with two experts like other martials instead of two trained like a caster. Cool. They still seem kinda squishy though.

Disappointed they kept the 1h weapon restrictions. It's not the end of the world, but kinda just feels like it locks out certain concepts and builds and I'm not sure how that makes the game better.

Wand still seems kinda bad, like it's comparable to a cantrip but cantrips are a fallback feature for casters, not one of the main draws of the class like implements are for thaumaturges.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
Can someone explain the Wand to me? It seems like it would feel really bad to use compared to a cantrip.

Sure, but in turn you aren't using up a class feat to pick up said cantrip, and then picking up additional class feats to up your spellcasting to Master. You just get to pick it up as an implement option, and the Reflex save it causes goes against your Class DC (which caps at Master automatically). You could totally keep it at Initiate and it'll be a nice, reliable ranged option.

You could Trick Magic Item to use cantrips from a staff or a spellheart, and you can certainly do that with the extra skill proficiency you get in your class features. But you can easily switch to your Wand implement from your other implements thanks to the quick-switch mechanic, so it'll always be available for you to use on-the-fly. It's much more clunky if you plan to do that with TMI.

Choosing to upgrade it gets you more range, more damage types, more effects that proc on a failed Reflex save, and going to Paragon even lets you do it as a 20-foot burst. That's a lot of on-the-fly customization compared to a single cantrip, and without a single class feat spent (and you got 2 other implements to use alongside it).


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keftiu wrote:
Can someone explain the Wand to me? It seems like it would feel really bad to use compared to a cantrip.

1st level *is* pretty weak... but if you've already made your first attack for the round (possibly with a thrown weapon?) then it's a way to get an attack that's based on Class DC (which you have) rather than spellcasting DC (which you don't) and that isn't suffering from MAP. Not a strike, though, so no exploit vuln. The d6 version is... almost a cantrip? It's not amazing, but it's at least potentially usable. There might be helpful feats. Maybe.

Adept's version looks like it's competitive with cantrips, at least to my eyes. Paragon's version is well beyond that.

I suddenly have a desire to see how a kitsune wand thaum who MCd over to monk to get FoB on their foxfire would do. Grab Stunning Fist for extra humor value. Doesn't really hit its stride until level 10-12, and probably still not worth it if you don't have free archetype, but....

I do appreciate that you can go Bell, Book and Candle. That's nice.


I'm excited for the combo potential for implements. Like weapon + mirror will allow you to threaten spaces in your reach for both yourself and your reflection. Intensify implement for tome + weapon is great for crit fishing, getting your +1 from RK, +2 from intensify and getting a fortune roll before hand. But besides power gaming this class, it's got a really solid foundation. Find flaws being against a standard DC rather than a RK DC is much more manageable. A little disappointed in the lantern but the rest of the implements have a lot going for them.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think a lot of how well this works will come down to the feats that we can't see.

They talked about using Find Flaws as a support tool instead of just DPR. Will there be feats to play around with it, or is it just implement benefits they were talking about?

Esoteric Lore is interesting, but are there ways to expand or do anything interesting with it within feats? Or is it just kind of what you see is what you get?

There's a lot of room for potential here, but also some potential rough spots and I'm really curious how it'll shake out when we get the full picture.

Exploit Vulnerability being a standard DC instead of having rarity stuff applied to it is cool, but it being more limited than a real recall check means it might feel kinda bad against enemies that don't have interesting weakness/resistance information, since that's all you get to learn. A little bit of a shame, though not a huge deal.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

we're so hyped for the Thaumaturge. probably gonna rebuild our rogue to be a tome and lantern thaumaturge.


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Xenocrat wrote:
This reddit thread compiles the information and saves you from the agony of having to watch that video.

Thank you. I sat through the whole thing. Do not want to go through that again.


Ah, seems like intensify vulnerability only works on one implement at a time. A shame since weapon has the best intensity effect by a mile. Thought to combine it with tomes effect. That might have been too good.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
aobst128 wrote:
Ah, seems like intensify vulnerability only works on one implement at a time. A shame since weapon has the best intensity effect by a mile. Thought to combine it with tomes effect. That might have been too good.

The Tome does give you a +1/+2 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to an attack on a successful Recall Knowledge which is also given for free at the beginning of your turn and the Weapon's Intensify effect gives a +2 STATUS bonus to attack rolls. That's pretty good.

Scarab Sages

One thing that I think they need to errata though is implement empowerment:

The exact wording of implement empowerment is that:

“You don’t gain the benefit of implement empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.”

Because of this rather confusing wording, it is unclear if wielding a one-handed weapon implement counts as holding a single one-handed weapon, or if you can hold a weapon-implement, and another weapon at the same time. If latter, then you can have a weapon-implement (say, sword) and still wield a shield (shield-basing being a weapon). Also, if you read this strictly, then you can’t have, say, a pistol with a reinforced stock in one hand as that (kinda) 2 one-handed weapons in the SAME hand. Even if one of them is an implement.

Lastly: This may open up the thaumaturge to a pseudo two-handed build. Depending on how you read the above paragraph, it may be acceptable to wield a one-handed weapon with the two-handed trait as a weapon implement. It may be possible to wield a weapon-implement as, say, a bastard sword for d12 damage. After all, a bastard sword is still classified as a ‘one handed weapon’ that just does extra damage when wielded two handed. Each of your hands is holding a ‘one handed weapon’ (technically) and an implement.


John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Ah, seems like intensify vulnerability only works on one implement at a time. A shame since weapon has the best intensity effect by a mile. Thought to combine it with tomes effect. That might have been too good.
The Tome does give you a +1/+2 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to an attack on a successful Recall Knowledge which is also given for free at the beginning of your turn and the Weapon's Intensify effect gives a +2 STATUS bonus to attack rolls. That's pretty good.

Yeah. Your intensity effects do need to compete though. The weapons effect will probably be the better bet compared to the tome. Other implements have niche effects that could come in handy but the tome and weapon have to do directly with strikes. I don't know the math on this though. What's better, a fortune roll you can decide to use or not, or just a simple +2 to strikes?

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
aobst128 wrote:
John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Ah, seems like intensify vulnerability only works on one implement at a time. A shame since weapon has the best intensity effect by a mile. Thought to combine it with tomes effect. That might have been too good.
The Tome does give you a +1/+2 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to an attack on a successful Recall Knowledge which is also given for free at the beginning of your turn and the Weapon's Intensify effect gives a +2 STATUS bonus to attack rolls. That's pretty good.
Yeah. Your intensity effects do need to compete though. The weapons effect will probably be the better bet compared to the tome. Other implements have niche effects that could come in handy but the tome and weapon have to do directly with strikes. I don't know the math on this though. What's better, a fortune roll you can decide to use or not, or just a simple +2 to strikes?

It's not the same thing but my understanding of a "roll 2 and take the better result" effect is roughly equal to a +5 bonus.


John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Ah, seems like intensify vulnerability only works on one implement at a time. A shame since weapon has the best intensity effect by a mile. Thought to combine it with tomes effect. That might have been too good.
The Tome does give you a +1/+2 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to an attack on a successful Recall Knowledge which is also given for free at the beginning of your turn and the Weapon's Intensify effect gives a +2 STATUS bonus to attack rolls. That's pretty good.
Yeah. Your intensity effects do need to compete though. The weapons effect will probably be the better bet compared to the tome. Other implements have niche effects that could come in handy but the tome and weapon have to do directly with strikes. I don't know the math on this though. What's better, a fortune roll you can decide to use or not, or just a simple +2 to strikes?
It's not the same thing but my understanding of a "roll 2 and take the better result" effect is roughly equal to a +5 bonus.

It doesn't work exactly like that. When you spend the intensify action, you roll a d20 and you can decide to use that on your next attack or make another roll. So you can't pick the better one since you have to go with your second roll if you forgo the first roll. It works similarly to devise a strategem.


VampByDay wrote:

One thing that I think they need to errata though is implement empowerment:

The exact wording of implement empowerment is that:

“You don’t gain the benefit of implement empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.”

Because of this rather confusing wording, it is unclear if wielding a one-handed weapon implement counts as holding a single one-handed weapon, or if you can hold a weapon-implement, and another weapon at the same time. If latter, then you can have a weapon-implement (say, sword) and still wield a shield (shield-basing being a weapon). Also, if you read this strictly, then you can’t have, say, a pistol with a reinforced stock in one hand as that (kinda) 2 one-handed weapons in the SAME hand. Even if one of them is an implement.

Lastly: This may open up the thaumaturge to a pseudo two-handed build. Depending on how you read the above paragraph, it may be acceptable to wield a one-handed weapon with the two-handed trait as a weapon implement. It may be possible to wield a weapon-implement as, say, a bastard sword for d12 damage. After all, a bastard sword is still classified as a ‘one handed weapon’ that just does extra damage when wielded two handed. Each of your hands is holding a ‘one handed weapon’ (technically) and an implement.

My take on the wording is that you can dual wield now as long as one weapon is an implement. Using a bastard sword 2 handed and get the empowerment effect is a stretch though.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
aobst128 wrote:
John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Ah, seems like intensify vulnerability only works on one implement at a time. A shame since weapon has the best intensity effect by a mile. Thought to combine it with tomes effect. That might have been too good.
The Tome does give you a +1/+2 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to an attack on a successful Recall Knowledge which is also given for free at the beginning of your turn and the Weapon's Intensify effect gives a +2 STATUS bonus to attack rolls. That's pretty good.
Yeah. Your intensity effects do need to compete though. The weapons effect will probably be the better bet compared to the tome. Other implements have niche effects that could come in handy but the tome and weapon have to do directly with strikes. I don't know the math on this though. What's better, a fortune roll you can decide to use or not, or just a simple +2 to strikes?
It's not the same thing but my understanding of a "roll 2 and take the better result" effect is roughly equal to a +5 bonus.
It doesn't work exactly like that. When you spend the intensify action, you roll a d20 and you can decide to use that on your next attack or make another roll. So you can't pick the better one since you have to go with your second roll if you forgo the first roll. It works similarly to devise a strategem.

That's why I said it's not the same thing. Closest thing I could think of though.


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Well I'm not too excited with I see at moment. Many features that I disliked in playtest was kept.

Unfortunately the class kept Charisma as key stat. There was a great discussion about this during playtest about how strange this stat can be to such class concept. Yet we still have players that liked but I was hope after such discussion something more flexible that allows to select it from 3 mental stats instead, to allow more flexibility to allow a grater myriad of char concepts using supernatural knowledge/instinct/sense.

The class also suffer from great MAD problem probably even grater than that currently affect the alchemist. Your key stat is not used to attack with exception of wands, also you "must" have to put some dex to avoid a low AC or take sentinel dedication, also if you want to focus in some of the 4 basic item/creature RK skills to do other things except RK of creatures, curses and haunts (because RK a creature is better done using Esoteric Lore including...humans and other society based creatures! Yes, once the text says "a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge regarding haunts, curses and creatures of [u]any type[/u]") like for example investigate an exoteric item you probably have to deal that despite you have a good proficiency, your int/wis stats will probably be in the best cases mediocre, specially if you want to use a melee non-finesse weapon and want to have a good Con.

Wands still mee too. It's basically a cantrip with some little improvements but these improvements aren't enough to compensate that lack of Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis in the damage.

That said I liked the most class features, specially many Implements.

Exploit Vulnerability is something I liked. It's basically a "special RK" that allows you to know the creature greater weakness and that allow you to repeat each round until it give you a success or a critical success, also Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis and +2 damage from Implement's Empowerment, due MAD I'm already seeing some players using this to throwing things like tridents! kkkk

Implements:
Amulet: It's basically a Champion protection with extras that can be used to protect you too that improves a lot during the char progression. It's really good!
Lantern: It's a interesting all-rounder detector. Can be very useful and always on.
Tome: The Intensify Vulnerability of this implement is very good. Is basically an unlimited improved True Strike that you can use even to reactions.
Weapon: Other fantastic implement, add a concentration triggered AoO and the fail condition that still trigger Mortal Weakness!


John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Ah, seems like intensify vulnerability only works on one implement at a time. A shame since weapon has the best intensity effect by a mile. Thought to combine it with tomes effect. That might have been too good.
The Tome does give you a +1/+2 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to an attack on a successful Recall Knowledge which is also given for free at the beginning of your turn and the Weapon's Intensify effect gives a +2 STATUS bonus to attack rolls. That's pretty good.
Yeah. Your intensity effects do need to compete though. The weapons effect will probably be the better bet compared to the tome. Other implements have niche effects that could come in handy but the tome and weapon have to do directly with strikes. I don't know the math on this though. What's better, a fortune roll you can decide to use or not, or just a simple +2 to strikes?
It's not the same thing but my understanding of a "roll 2 and take the better result" effect is roughly equal to a +5 bonus.
It doesn't work exactly like that. When you spend the intensify action, you roll a d20 and you can decide to use that on your next attack or make another roll. So you can't pick the better one since you have to go with your second roll if you forgo the first roll. It works similarly to devise a strategem.
That's why I said it's not the same thing. Closest thing I could think of though.

Gotcha. I think the math on it is dependent on how you use it since you have the choice of how it works. If you keep the roll assuming it will hit and only reroll on misses, it decreases your miss chance but won't increase your crit chance much or at all, but if you reroll everytime even on rolls that would hit, you could increase your crit chance that way but weirdly enough, you increase your chance to miss at the same time.


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I like tome quite a lot. It makes for a very potent skill monkey and while intelligence isn't required thanks to esoteric lore, being able to prepare specific lores at high proficiency makes the int thaumaturge a possibility with direct combat utility at 7th level. Probably gotta keep charisma at 18 though.


I wonder about how your free interact to use your implements works with weapon implement. Would it effectively give you quick draw with your weapon implement or would it only effect your opportunity attack? Would be very relevant for one handed ranged weapons, many of which have the loaded property and need a free hand to function. Being able to swap your weapon for your secondary and then back to strike while keeping a free hand for reloading would be ideal. The example of ranged weapon was a hand crossbow so it should work like this right?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
YuriP wrote:

Well I'm not too excited with I see at moment. Many features that I disliked in playtest was kept.

Unfortunately the class kept Charisma as key stat. There was a great discussion about this during playtest about how strange this stat can be to such class concept. Yet we still have players that liked but I was hope after such discussion something more flexible that allows to select it from 3 mental stats instead, to allow more flexibility to allow a grater myriad of char concepts using supernatural knowledge/instinct/sense.

The class also suffer from great MAD problem probably even grater than that currently affect the alchemist. Your key stat is not used to attack with exception of wands, also you "must" have to put some dex to avoid a low AC or take sentinel dedication, also if you want to focus in some of the 4 basic item/creature RK skills to do other things except RK of creatures, curses and haunts (because RK a creature is better done using Esoteric Lore including...humans and other society based creatures! Yes, once the text says "a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge regarding haunts, curses and creatures of [u]any type[/u]") like for example investigate an exoteric item you probably have to deal that despite you have a good proficiency, your int/wis stats will probably be in the best cases mediocre, specially if you want to use a melee non-finesse weapon and want to have a good Con.

Wands still mee too. It's basically a cantrip with some little improvements but these improvements aren't enough to compensate that lack of Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis in the damage.

That said I liked the most class features, specially many Implements.

Exploit Vulnerability is something I liked. It's basically a "special RK" that allows you to know the creature greater weakness and that allow you to repeat each round until it give you a success or a critical success, also Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis and +2 damage from Implement's Empowerment, due MAD I'm...

Seems to be about as MAD as the Inventor. You basically need an ancestry with an inherent boost to either CHA or your physical to hit stat to be optimal, though that does a leave a pretty solid amount of options.

Scarab Sages

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Captain Morgan wrote:
YuriP wrote:

Well I'm not too excited with I see at moment. Many features that I disliked in playtest was kept.

Unfortunately the class kept Charisma as key stat. There was a great discussion about this during playtest about how strange this stat can be to such class concept. Yet we still have players that liked but I was hope after such discussion something more flexible that allows to select it from 3 mental stats instead, to allow more flexibility to allow a grater myriad of char concepts using supernatural knowledge/instinct/sense.

The class also suffer from great MAD problem probably even grater than that currently affect the alchemist. Your key stat is not used to attack with exception of wands, also you "must" have to put some dex to avoid a low AC or take sentinel dedication, also if you want to focus in some of the 4 basic item/creature RK skills to do other things except RK of creatures, curses and haunts (because RK a creature is better done using Esoteric Lore including...humans and other society based creatures! Yes, once the text says "a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge regarding haunts, curses and creatures of [u]any type[/u]") like for example investigate an exoteric item you probably have to deal that despite you have a good proficiency, your int/wis stats will probably be in the best cases mediocre, specially if you want to use a melee non-finesse weapon and want to have a good Con.

Wands still mee too. It's basically a cantrip with some little improvements but these improvements aren't enough to compensate that lack of Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis in the damage.

That said I liked the most class features, specially many Implements.

Exploit Vulnerability is something I liked. It's basically a "special RK" that allows you to know the creature greater weakness and that allow you to repeat each round until it give you a success or a critical success, also Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis and +2 damage from Implement's

...

It is . . . problematic at early levels. Because you will have trouble hitting, it's assumed you will put at least 16 into strength or dex (depending if you go Strength or switch-hitter thaumaturge) which leaves you with little room for constitution. As you level up, this becomes less of a problem as you can boost (Strength or dex), Con, Charisma, and any one ability you want (probably wisdom or Int).

Thaumaturges are glass canons, hit hard but they can't stand in a straight-up fight long unless they have solid healing back them up. For sure pick up toughness when you can and maybe consider starting play as a race with 10 starting HP (or 12 if a full orc!) just to get over that first hurdle to level 5!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
VampByDay wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
YuriP wrote:

Well I'm not too excited with I see at moment. Many features that I disliked in playtest was kept.

Unfortunately the class kept Charisma as key stat. There was a great discussion about this during playtest about how strange this stat can be to such class concept. Yet we still have players that liked but I was hope after such discussion something more flexible that allows to select it from 3 mental stats instead, to allow more flexibility to allow a grater myriad of char concepts using supernatural knowledge/instinct/sense.

The class also suffer from great MAD problem probably even grater than that currently affect the alchemist. Your key stat is not used to attack with exception of wands, also you "must" have to put some dex to avoid a low AC or take sentinel dedication, also if you want to focus in some of the 4 basic item/creature RK skills to do other things except RK of creatures, curses and haunts (because RK a creature is better done using Esoteric Lore including...humans and other society based creatures! Yes, once the text says "a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge regarding haunts, curses and creatures of [u]any type[/u]") like for example investigate an exoteric item you probably have to deal that despite you have a good proficiency, your int/wis stats will probably be in the best cases mediocre, specially if you want to use a melee non-finesse weapon and want to have a good Con.

Wands still mee too. It's basically a cantrip with some little improvements but these improvements aren't enough to compensate that lack of Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis in the damage.

That said I liked the most class features, specially many Implements.

Exploit Vulnerability is something I liked. It's basically a "special RK" that allows you to know the creature greater weakness and that allow you to repeat each round until it give you a success or a critical success, also Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis and

...

Which is basically the boat the Inventor is in. Both classes have some options you can take to boost defense, though, and also have damage bonuses that apply just fine to longbows if you want to go ranged. (Not ALL of the Thaumaturge's bonus damage applies to the long bow, but you still get a nice flat damage boost without the implement amplification or whatever it is called.)

I guess Inventor gets Shield Block, though actually accommodating shields into the action economy can be tricky.


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I wonder if the Thaumaturge is finally the martial I can get the whip-based character to work well with. Neither the Swashbuckler nor the Inventor really hit that sweet spot.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I wonder if the Thaumaturge is finally the martial I can get the whip-based character to work well with. Neither the Swashbuckler nor the Inventor really hit that sweet spot.

Implements empowerment gives it the average damage of a d8 weapon. Trip makes your opportunity attack more reliable. Sounds like it could be pretty good.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Seems like it could be functional. Decent static damage modifiers to compensate for the whip's low base damage, reach helps with your squishiness and synergizes with AoO.

Thaumaturge doesn't seem like it has a lot of inherent maneuver synergy though, and reach + trip is one of the big draws of the weapon, but you don't have any anti-synergies there so it's not really a problem either.


Unfortunate they decided to stay cha only rather than int/ cha, since it means justifying having int on your character more difficult such really diminishes any interest I have in playing the class.

But does seem better then the playtest version.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I wonder if the Thaumaturge is finally the martial I can get the whip-based character to work well with. Neither the Swashbuckler nor the Inventor really hit that sweet spot.

Sorry for detailing the thread for a spell. But laughing shadow Magus works well for that. Especially if you play with FA.

I've made a laughing shadow ant gnoll wielding a scorpion whip with FA rogue, as a backup char (gotta have a hyena laugh sound ready on my phone).

Most of your damg comes from SS and your improved cascade + sneak attacker, so the base d4 die isn't really an issue. Reach is awesome for mitigating potential AoO disruption. And if you get to later levels Gang up is great for easy flanking to enable the better cascade damg and sneak attacker. Haven't played him yet, but on paper it looks solid and very fun to play


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Backing to OP.

There's other weirdness about Thaumaturge's MAD that is the low incentive to invest in your Cha!

I say this because there's only 2 main uses for the stat that are Esoteric Lore and Exploit Vulnerability!

Exploit Vulnerability basically works even in failure giving Personal Antithesis. So especially against no weakness creature and even if a creature have a weakness stronger than Personal Antithesis even with low cha theres a good chance to pass in the check or you can simply retry next round.

The Esoteric Lore is useful to RK of creatures and more situational way haunts and curses. So it's primary use is to RK a creature but you still can RK of creatures in traditional way using Arcana, Occultism, Nature, Religion, Society so it's just make EL an interesting feature but not a killing one and to complete this due the limitation of RK's test cannot be retried in case of a failure and the fact that Exploit Vulnerability basically already gives the mostly useful info about the creatures that are their weaknesses and their exact amounts also having a chance to give their resistances, immunities, unusual weaknesses/vulnerabilities and haven't a retry limit like RK this easily eclipses the Esoteric Lore's utility is most cases.

Also we have only 2 implements that requires cha (chalice and wand) but if you don't plan to use them your cha stat doesn't matter.

This make me think "why I have to focus in the Thaumaturge key stat?" in many build concept isn't better to just ignore it and focus in other stats like str,dex,con or even int/wis if I want an expert of supernatural/magical things? Probably the char will be stronger and more versatile this way than a cha focused Thaumaturge.

This also make me think that probably (we yet don't know) the thaumaturge archetype will be more interesting in most characters concepts and build than a "true" thaumaturge build.

IMO the thaumaturge is currently very weird. Maybe some feats may help to make it more logic but based in what I saw in playtest I don't even expect this.


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I'm very happy to have the improvements we do. I actually think Thaumaturge occupies a great spot for knowledge checks that Wis or Int wouldn't support well. They are the expert on rare creatures, and weaknesses in particular, outperforming even Investigator by a lot. They're just as good as the combined efforts of a Wizard and Druid when it comes to identifying common creatures. But, of equal importance, they do so without overshadowing those other classes, which are going to be better at their respective general knowledge. You can have an Investigator, a Thaumaturge, and a Druid, in the same group, and they'll all have different specialties when it comes to knowledge.

Part of my enjoyment is that the class really allows what I wanted from the Bard. You can have a John Dee-esque character who blends religion and occultism, reading from a Tome implement with the supposed "language of the angels" that beard little resemblance to Celestial. You can have a charismatic fey-themed character with a pact and a looking glass Mirror implement from the First World that reflects another self.


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YuriP wrote:
Also we have only 2 implements that requires cha (chalice and wand) but if you don't plan to use them your cha stat doesn't matter.

Bell also uses it very substantially for the save DCs, and Regalia is bonuses to Charisma-based skills. On the other hand, Chalice only adds Cha at Adept, so it works as a tertiary option.


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We'll need to wait to see the feats to be sure, but so far it's looking like a thaumaturge can operate on the same level as non-fighter/thief CRB martials.

The thaumaturge unfortunately has some bad points to play around. D8 hp on a martial class, -1 accuracy for 50% of the game, manipulate traits on some of its implementes and some MADness.

We deal with MADness by either run a ranged build and sac str and int to 8 to boost con or take sentinel or champion dedication for heavy armor.

D8 hp can't be helped. You're already taking toughness but you might want it earlier. -1 accuracy is also something you just need to live with.

Like the magus, you also risk some embarrassing situations against enemies with AoO. Imagine yourself sipping from your cup only to get clobbered. Like the magus, the obvious solution is to play ranged or grab a reach weapon. Unlike the magus, you can't use a bow without Juggle so you're stuck with Returning throwing weapons or an air repeater. There are only a few 1-handed reach weapons and the king needs no introduction.

As a side note, I do wish personal antithesis worked like mortal weakness in that it worked against all enemies of the same type. Ranger-tier target switching feels bad.

I may have just outlined the bad points to keep in mind, but I'll reiterate that the class looks to be on the level of CRB martials even without being locked into a super specific build or action rotation. This is an excellent sign.


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gesalt wrote:
Unlike the magus, you can't use a bow without Juggle so you're stuck with Returning throwing weapons or an air repeater. There are only a few 1-handed reach weapons and the king needs no introduction.

Why not use a slide pistol? Thaum has martial proficiency. You trade out a slightly bigger magazine and agile for a bigger damage die, fatal, and concussive. Unlike moat classes, you don't even need to burn an action to reholster your gun to make use of the Immaculate Holsters if you're after a 3 action refill the whole thing ability aince you can just put it away for free if it's an implement, not to mention the higher level of synergy with single action reloads in existing feats


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John R. wrote:
It's not the same thing but my understanding of a "roll 2 and take the better result" effect is roughly equal to a +5 bonus.

That's not correct. It's +5 in the best-case scenario (targeting 11 or better)). It's more like +3 or +4 in the average-case scenario, not counting crits. For PF2, which cares about crits at the extremes as well as hits in the middle it's probably worth +2 or +3. Still good, but not nearly as good.

On the bright side, it stacks with everything, and it can reduce critfails to unrealistically low probabilities long before simple bonuses to hit could kick them off the bottom of the track.

gesalt wrote:
There are only a few 1-handed reach weapons and the king needs no introduction.

I want to pause here for a moment and note my amusement at how "the king needs no introduction" is used (accurately) to describe the gnomish flickmace. Ah, context.


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Alchemic_Genius wrote:
gesalt wrote:
Unlike the magus, you can't use a bow without Juggle so you're stuck with Returning throwing weapons or an air repeater. There are only a few 1-handed reach weapons and the king needs no introduction.
Why not use a slide pistol? Thaum has martial proficiency. You trade out a slightly bigger magazine and agile for a bigger damage die, fatal, and concussive. Unlike moat classes, you don't even need to burn an action to reholster your gun to make use of the Immaculate Holsters if you're after a 3 action refill the whole thing ability aince you can just put it away for free if it's an implement, not to mention the higher level of synergy with single action reloads in existing feats

Reload (which capacity requires) is a non-starter. There is no scenario, even on a gunslinger, where you want to use a reload weapon. It's why the only gunslinger build that operates at CRB level is a paired shots setup with the repeating hand crossbow.

Ideally, every martial needs to have the ability to strike twice each round and have an open action for movement or for some utility action. Reload simply doesn't allow it. Even the air repeater only gives you 3 rounds of that capability, but that is enough for most combats.


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Is Flickmace so good that it's worth spending a feat? I'm thinking about creating an Orc for HP using a whip for the maneuvers. Is this orc viable? The name would be Belmont obviously...


QuidEst wrote:

I'm very happy to have the improvements we do. I actually think Thaumaturge occupies a great spot for knowledge checks that Wis or Int wouldn't support well. They are the expert on rare creatures, and weaknesses in particular, outperforming even Investigator by a lot. They're just as good as the combined efforts of a Wizard and Druid when it comes to identifying common creatures. But, of equal importance, they do so without overshadowing those other classes, which are going to be better at their respective general knowledge. You can have an Investigator, a Thaumaturge, and a Druid, in the same group, and they'll all have different specialties when it comes to knowledge.

Part of my enjoyment is that the class really allows what I wanted from the Bard. You can have a John Dee-esque character who blends religion and occultism, reading from a Tome implement with the supposed "language of the angels" that beard little resemblance to Celestial. You can have a charismatic fey-themed character with a pact and a looking glass Mirror implement from the First World that reflects another self.

I thought he was very weird, because instead of the thaumaturge being a master of exoterism, he mechanically looks more like a master of creatures. As you said yourself, his mechanics in practice seem to be much closer to an experienced bard who has a great global knowledge about the different types of creatures in the world, than in fact someone who has delved into the exoteric as a whole.

Scarab Sages

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Wow, uh, okay, lot of hot takes here. Gotta get to work but:

You can choose a dueling pistol or hand crossbow to be your implement, then use it with a hand free to get the benefits of implement empowerment. Doesn't have any downsides until level 7 when you get your second implement, and in that case just have your second implement be an out-of-combat thing like the tome or chalice for out of combat healing.

Uh, I don't know why you HAVE to attack 2/round with a thaumaturge. I mean, not all combats happen in a blank field. Sometimes its better to get into position to give the rogue the flank. My Champion in extinction curse ends up usually only attacking 1/round, and that's because his main job is tanking and preventing damage to others, Thaumaturge can do that with the amulet.

Let's, uh, let's try to be creative here and not just declare what you 'have' to do with the thau and instead think of fun builds, not tear others' down.


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Having 2/round attacks is more efficient when you are focus in do a good DPR. But as VampByDay said that's not necessary the main focus of a build. Yet I also prefer to thrown a returning weapon instead of fire a reload weapon due the reload inefficiency. Reload weapon for me is just when playing a class with one shot per round benefit or that gain reload maneuvers.


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Slide pistol could be fun. With free archetype, you could go for risky reload to help with the action economy. By 10th level, you could go for pistolero's reload to demoralize with your high charisma.


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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Is Flickmace so good that it's worth spending a feat? I'm thinking about creating an Orc for HP using a whip for the maneuvers. Is this orc viable? The name would be Belmont obviously...

Depends on what you need it for. Flickmace gives you the best raw damage you'll get with a one-handed reach weapon. Whip drops two full points of damage per die in return for a bunch of traits that may not be useful. In particular, the fact that it gives finesse, disarm and trip is a bit of a kick in the face because using the finesse to go dex-based means that you're making yourself worse at the athletics moves that disarm and trip would support. The nonlethal could be cool or annoying but if you don't like it, you can go for a scorpion whip instead.

That said, a big part of the thaumaturge schtick is extra damage, which can make losing two die sizes less important. Also, if you go with the asp coil instead of the whip, you can get back up to d6 (at the cost of those traits).

In terms of raw effectiveness? I'd be hard-pressed to find a level 1 ancestry feat that would give me *better* than an extra die size on all melee attacks, and as a half-orc, unconventional weaponry is available to you. If you care about the flavor more, though, or if you want to go heavy into reach-tripping or something, then you can probably still have your thaum at a functional level even using the whip. They just won't be quite as strong as they could have been.

Worth noting that not all feats are created equal. In particular, class feats are the strongest, and ancestry tend to be stronger than general.

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