Premature discussion about the Thaumaturge


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
aobst128 wrote:

Rampaging form also doesn't list a tradition, so it's questionable if you could use your expert divine proficiency

from kitsune spell expertise with produce flame.

Rampaging form doesn't, but that's because it simply modifies an existing ability, Change Shape, that does have a tradition.

Though regardless I'm not sure it's an ability that really makes sense for this character.


Squiggit wrote:
aobst128 wrote:

Rampaging form also doesn't list a tradition, so it's questionable if you could use your expert divine proficiency

from kitsune spell expertise with produce flame.

Rampaging form doesn't, but that's because it simply modifies an existing ability, Change Shape, that does have a tradition.

Though regardless I'm not sure it's an ability that really makes sense for this character.

Now I want to know what your proficiency is gonna be with produce flame from the fiery body effect. Is there a general rule about unspecified innate spells? Or is it a dragon disciple situation that might need an errata?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
aobst128 wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
aobst128 wrote:

Rampaging form also doesn't list a tradition, so it's questionable if you could use your expert divine proficiency

from kitsune spell expertise with produce flame.

Rampaging form doesn't, but that's because it simply modifies an existing ability, Change Shape, that does have a tradition.

Though regardless I'm not sure it's an ability that really makes sense for this character.

Now I want to know what your proficiency is gonna be with produce flame from the fiery body effect. Is there a general rule about unspecified innate spells? Or is it a dragon disciple situation that might need an errata?

You are always at least trained in innate spells as per the Innate Spells rules, and I believe as Squiggit says because this is riding off Change Shape it is reasonable (if not RAW) to use the tradition there - which is Divine.

But since you are Animal Shaping as part of Rampaging Form, it is going to be difficult if not impossible to actually wield your implements. Not a great scenario for a Thaumaturge.


Xethik wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
aobst128 wrote:

Rampaging form also doesn't list a tradition, so it's questionable if you could use your expert divine proficiency

from kitsune spell expertise with produce flame.

Rampaging form doesn't, but that's because it simply modifies an existing ability, Change Shape, that does have a tradition.

Though regardless I'm not sure it's an ability that really makes sense for this character.

Now I want to know what your proficiency is gonna be with produce flame from the fiery body effect. Is there a general rule about unspecified innate spells? Or is it a dragon disciple situation that might need an errata?

You are always at least trained in innate spells as per the Innate Spells rules, and I believe as Squiggit says because this is riding off Change Shape it is reasonable (if not RAW) to use the tradition there - which is Divine.

But since you are Animal Shaping as part of Rampaging Form, it is going to be difficult if not impossible to actually wield your implements. Not a great scenario for a Thaumaturge.

makes sense as divine from change shape. Yeah, not great for thaumaturge but I always like to use the capstone ancestry feats for builds even if they're not great. It would cut you off from almost all of your class abilities, but that's true for a bunch of classes. I figured that find flaws could at least carry over to animal form assuming you change shape after. Only really helpful for strength builds though. Oh well.

Scarab Sages

Still can’t decide on my kitsune build. As fun as the foxfire thing is, I’m leaning strength just because it is more in line with what I have in mind.

In other news my guide is basically done with its alpha build. Four normal builds (Strength, dex, strength-shield-natural attack, and wand user) and four out there builds (Foxfire kitsune, 1/2 elf martial artist, Royal adventurer, and a surprise build based on a critical role character!)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Hmm can Handwraps be a Weapon Implement? If so that might be a way to work the Kitsune Foxfire.

Though Regalia as a crown or regal cape plus Wand as a scepter has a nice image for a Kitsune or Sprite who throws some natural unarmed fire and then also Wand attack for a second attack at no MAP.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ryuujin-sama wrote:

Hmm can Handwraps be a Weapon Implement? If so that might be a way to work the Kitsune Foxfire.

Though Regalia as a crown or regal cape plus Wand as a scepter has a nice image for a Kitsune or Sprite who throws some natural unarmed fire and then also Wand attack for a second attack at no MAP.

The handwraps can't be your weapon implement, but I just think that encourages going for a defensive reaction instead. You still can benefit from Implement Empowerment if you follow the other limitations.


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The foxfire build I was planning on was going to be a general that uses regalia, tome, and amulet, and uses marshal dedication plus inspiring marshal stance to give huge passive buffs. Tome lets me prepare important skills for the day's adventure, and regalia lets everyone Follow me at significant bonuses. Probably not the best personal dps, but my team gets a huge benefit for simply existing

Scarab Sages

Another thing that might need erattad. The Adept ability of the mirror doesn't give you a chance for it not to happen. So if you are flanking someone and they hit you, you shatter and have to spend a round setting up your mirror duplicate again. This arguably makes it worse than the initiate version as a smart enemy could tactically attack you to force you into a place based on which mirror duplicate they attacked.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
VampByDay wrote:
Another thing that might need erattad. The Adept ability of the mirror doesn't give you a chance for it not to happen. So if you are flanking someone and they hit you, you shatter and have to spend a round setting up your mirror duplicate again. This arguably makes it worse than the initiate version as a smart enemy could tactically attack you to force you into a place based on which mirror duplicate they attacked.

The mirror only lasts until the start of your next turn. It could come up with reactions and whatnot, but it would be nice if you could opt into it regardless.


VampByDay wrote:
Another thing that might need erattad. The Adept ability of the mirror doesn't give you a chance for it not to happen. So if you are flanking someone and they hit you, you shatter and have to spend a round setting up your mirror duplicate again. This arguably makes it worse than the initiate version as a smart enemy could tactically attack you to force you into a place based on which mirror duplicate they attacked.

My handling of this as a GM would be that the decision is made when you spend the action. That way, it still doesn't need to be a reaction, but if you know you'd be worse off for the upgrade, you can choose not to use it. I think "making a significant off-turn decision" is something that should generally stay a reaction.


so assuming no one hits me, do i have to activate the mirror again every round?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
so assuming no one hits me, do i have to activate the mirror again every round?

It lasts until the start of your next turn.

Scarab Sages

Xethik wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
so assuming no one hits me, do i have to activate the mirror again every round?
It lasts until the start of your next turn.

Still, a smart enemy could ready an action to attack as soon as a mirror turns up which could really shut you down, especially in close quarters. I dunno, just something that I noticed.


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VampByDay wrote:
Xethik wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
so assuming no one hits me, do i have to activate the mirror again every round?
It lasts until the start of your next turn.
Still, a smart enemy could ready an action to attack as soon as a mirror turns up which could really shut you down, especially in close quarters. I dunno, just something that I noticed.

A smart enemy? They're spending two actions and a reaction to mess with one action, they take automatic damage in the process, and you can just use the mirror implement again with your second action if it's important.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Xethik wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
so assuming no one hits me, do i have to activate the mirror again every round?
It lasts until the start of your next turn.
Still, a smart enemy could ready an action to attack as soon as a mirror turns up which could really shut you down, especially in close quarters. I dunno, just something that I noticed.
A smart enemy? They're spending two actions and a reaction to mess with one action, they take automatic damage in the process, and you can just use the mirror implement again with your second action if it's important.

It'll depend on how many enemies there are in this hypothetical situation VS how many PCs there are. If there's fewer enemies than there are PCs, then it's an utter wash. If there's more enemies than there are PCs, then that might end up as a net advantage for the enemy group.


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Ezekieru wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Xethik wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
so assuming no one hits me, do i have to activate the mirror again every round?
It lasts until the start of your next turn.
Still, a smart enemy could ready an action to attack as soon as a mirror turns up which could really shut you down, especially in close quarters. I dunno, just something that I noticed.
A smart enemy? They're spending two actions and a reaction to mess with one action, they take automatic damage in the process, and you can just use the mirror implement again with your second action if it's important.
It'll depend on how many enemies there are in this hypothetical situation VS how many PCs there are. If there's fewer enemies than there are PCs, then it's an utter wash. If there's more enemies than there are PCs, then that might end up as a net advantage for the enemy group.

If there are more enemies, just have your mirror image show up next to somebody who didn't only spend one action on their turn. Readying an action is really expensive, and pretty telegraphed.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Since we're discussing the mirror, could you dismiss the effect without having to move from your current space, perhaps by swapping implements, no longer having the mirror in hand?


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John R. wrote:
Since we're discussing the mirror, could you dismiss the effect without having to move from your current space, perhaps by swapping implements, no longer having the mirror in hand?

No*. Mirror would be really bad if swapping implements dismissed the effect, and it would also imply things like Chalice's temporary hitpoints should disappear upon swap. The two end conditions listed are "move" and "start of your next turn".

*Yes. If you have one copy move, but declare the other one real, you can dismiss it without moving from your square.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
John R. wrote:
Since we're discussing the mirror, could you dismiss the effect without having to move from your current space, perhaps by swapping implements, no longer having the mirror in hand?
*Yes. If you have one copy move, but declare the other one real, you can dismiss it without moving from your square.

I thought the reflection mimicked the actions of your true self, therefore the real you would have to actually be moving.

I'm basically trying to think of an efficient way of hiding behind trees and moving from tree to tree using the mirror. I also thought about maybe needing Call Implement after maybe dropping the mirror to dismiss the effect(?). Probably wouldn't work for the same reasons swapping implements wouldn't work.


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John R. wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
John R. wrote:
Since we're discussing the mirror, could you dismiss the effect without having to move from your current space, perhaps by swapping implements, no longer having the mirror in hand?
*Yes. If you have one copy move, but declare the other one real, you can dismiss it without moving from your square.

I thought the reflection mimicked the actions of your true self, therefore the real you would have to actually be moving.

I'm basically trying to think of an efficient way of hiding behind trees and moving from tree to tree using the mirror. I also thought about maybe needing Call Implement after maybe dropping the mirror to dismiss the effect(?). Probably wouldn't work for the same reasons swapping implements wouldn't work.

Good point, I think you're right. I keep thinking of the "pick which one of you effects come from" part and applying it to actions.

The implement doesn't say what happens if you use it multiple times in a round, and given how all the language refers to "both" copies of you, I imagine you'll be able to get rid of one image by making another.


Cursed effigy doesn't work with foxfire. Bummer. Has to deal physical damage. Was looking forward to pairing that with wand to be a pseudo spell slinger.

Dark Archive

John R. wrote:


I'm basically trying to think of an efficient way of hiding behind trees and moving from tree to tree using the mirror. I also thought about maybe needing Call Implement after maybe dropping the mirror to dismiss the effect(?). Probably wouldn't work for the same reasons swapping implements wouldn't work.

Nothing stops you from repeatedly mirror-blinking to and from cover, as long as the breaks in said cover are not greater than 15ft at a time. Plus, if you are behind cover and create a mirror duplicate that's in the open, you can have fun pantomiming what you would do.

Dark Archive

Also, PDF's should start landing with subs from later today. So this thread will no longer be premature!


Tome Implement: How will this interact with the Raise a Tome Magus class feat and improved feats? Not seeing why I could not take Magus Dedication and snag the feat and at level 12 get Shield Tome. This will allow my Tome Implement to have good hardness if I wanted to shield block.

Anyone know if there are any ways to get skill feats similar to the fighters feat Combat Flexibility.


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dmnewearth2100 wrote:
Anyone know if there are any ways to get skill feats similar to the fighters feat Combat Flexibility.

Bribe the GM. But more seriously, no. Even Rogue and Investigator don't get anything like that, so I don't really expect it outside of some sort of capstone-esque feat eventually.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm planning a skeleton Thaumaturge for Blood Lords with Regalia and Tome. I sort of want to go guns with the Talisman feat, because Adaptive Cog seems to let you make one gun into any gun. But the reload seems harsh on a class that wants to be landing multiple hits.

Scarab Sages

Captain Morgan wrote:
I'm planning a skeleton Thaumaturge for Blood Lords with Regalia and Tome. I sort of want to go guns with the Talisman feat, because Adaptive Cog seems to let you make one gun into any gun. But the reload seems harsh on a class that wants to be landing multiple hits.

Firing off 3 shots every 2 rounds isn't too bad. Plus, think of all those nice jucy crits.

Also, remember that as a thaumaturge, your accuracy isn't going to be that great, so multiple attacks may not hit.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
VampByDay wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
I'm planning a skeleton Thaumaturge for Blood Lords with Regalia and Tome. I sort of want to go guns with the Talisman feat, because Adaptive Cog seems to let you make one gun into any gun. But the reload seems harsh on a class that wants to be landing multiple hits.

Firing off 3 shots every 2 rounds isn't too bad. Plus, think of all those nice jucy crits.

Also, remember that as a thaumaturge, your accuracy isn't going to be that great, so multiple attacks may not hit.

I'm also less likely to crit though. I have a hard time feeling motivated to use deadly or fatal weapons without fighter or gunslinger accuracy.


QuidEst wrote:
dmnewearth2100 wrote:
Anyone know if there are any ways to get skill feats similar to the fighters feat Combat Flexibility.
Bribe the GM. But more seriously, no. Even Rogue and Investigator don't get anything like that, so I don't really expect it outside of some sort of capstone-esque feat eventually.

I can see it as a 17th capstone Ancestry feat for the Elf feat line that lets you move around a pair of skill proficiencies. Seems like a logical conclusion to how they work out. Also I think there is/was one method, but I can't remember where exactly it was found


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Just noticed something from the reddit boil-down linked on page 1 abotu exploit vulnerability.

"You retrieve Esoterica as part of the action, then empower it with your Implement and apply it to your weapon to exploit weaknesses."

Are we sure that it even works on foxfire?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sanityfaerie wrote:

Just noticed something from the reddit boil-down linked on page 1 abotu exploit vulnerability.

"You retrieve Esoterica as part of the action, then empower it with your Implement and apply it to your weapon to exploit weaknesses."

Are we sure that it even works on foxfire?

I don't see that text in Dark Archive. You can see the full text in NoNat1s video if needed, but there is nothing weapon specific about Exploit Vulnerability.

Scarab Sages

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Just noticed something from the reddit boil-down linked on page 1 abotu exploit vulnerability.

"You retrieve Esoterica as part of the action, then empower it with your Implement and apply it to your weapon to exploit weaknesses."

Are we sure that it even works on foxfire?

The full text of implement empowerment reads: reads:

"The power of your implement can also be turned to the more common task of combat, its power adding and amplifying the effects of runes and other magical empowerment. When you strike you can trace mystic patterns with an implement you're holding to empower the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per weapon damage die. Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefits of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."

Source: Pause the screen on NoNat1's first thaumaturge video, pause the video and read what is on screen.

Strikes work for both armed (weapon) strikes and unarmed strikes.


VampByDay wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:

Just noticed something from the reddit boil-down linked on page 1 abotu exploit vulnerability.

"You retrieve Esoterica as part of the action, then empower it with your Implement and apply it to your weapon to exploit weaknesses."

Are we sure that it even works on foxfire?

The full text of implement empowerment reads: reads:

"The power of your implement can also be turned to the more common task of combat, its power adding and amplifying the effects of runes and other magical empowerment. When you strike you can trace mystic patterns with an implement you're holding to empower the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per weapon damage die. Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefits of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."

Source: Pause the screen on NoNat1's first thaumaturge video, pause the video and read what is on screen.

Strikes work for both armed (weapon) strikes and unarmed strikes.

I didn't say Implement Empowerment. I said Exploit Vulnerability.

Scarab Sages

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I'm not going to type out the entirety of exploit vulnerability + Mortal Weakness+personal antithisis but both mortal weakness and personal antithesis specifically call out that it works with unarmed OR weapon strikes. You can confirm by Screen pausing and reading the full text starting at this time stamp.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:

Just noticed something from the reddit boil-down linked on page 1 abotu exploit vulnerability.

"You retrieve Esoterica as part of the action, then empower it with your Implement and apply it to your weapon to exploit weaknesses."

Are we sure that it even works on foxfire?

The full text of implement empowerment reads: reads:

"The power of your implement can also be turned to the more common task of combat, its power adding and amplifying the effects of runes and other magical empowerment. When you strike you can trace mystic patterns with an implement you're holding to empower the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per weapon damage die. Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefits of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."

Source: Pause the screen on NoNat1's first thaumaturge video, pause the video and read what is on screen.

Strikes work for both armed (weapon) strikes and unarmed strikes.

I didn't say Implement Empowerment. I said Exploit Vulnerability.

it's on the same page exactly at the timestamped that it was posted.

that reads "your unarmed and weapon strikes...", at least for the mortal weakness part which was what was viewable at the frame paused (i assume the language to be the same personal antithesis too, no reason not to)


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Okay. Cool. Sorry for troubling people. I'm not currently in a situation where running videos is wise.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So does using an agile weapon (say, a hatchet) offset dropping from d8 to d6? I feel like it should with all those damage buffs (there's a reason barbarians halve their rage damage with agile) but I suck at DPR calculations.

I keep trying to figure out ways to make guns work but fatal just feels so wasted when I'm +3 behind a gunslinger and I'm leery of reloading. Repeating hand crossbow might be worth it... But it feels like the best move for ranged/switch hurting is thrown weapons. Probably with hatchets and light hammers, though I'm still contemplating finesse.


Captain Morgan wrote:

So does using an agile weapon (say, a hatchet) offset dropping from d8 to d6? I feel like it should with all those damage buffs (there's a reason barbarians halve their rage damage with agile) but I suck at DPR calculations.

I keep trying to figure out ways to make guns work but fatal just feels so wasted when I'm +3 behind a gunslinger and I'm leery of reloading. Repeating hand crossbow might be worth it... But it feels like the best move for ranged/switch hurting is thrown weapons. Probably with hatchets and light hammers, though I'm still contemplating finesse.

Pistol is not bad once you can intensity with either the weapon or tome effect. Until then, thrown weapons are the best bet.

I can see hatchet being a good choice for melee. Lot of bonus damage to work with that agile will help to get out fast. Sweep for when dealing with a bunch of the same type of creatures.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Was really hoping to go for a Wand focused Thaumaturge, possibly with Kitsune/Spirit for a ranged unnarmed strike to keep the ranged elemental damage flinger theme. I just am not sure how to actually make it viable. Especially since the Thaumaturge class DC doesn't scale like spellcaster spell DCs.

I found a grand total of one feat, unless I missed something, that could help Wand so long as you are attacking the target of your Exploit Vulnerability. But Exploit Vulnerability doesn't help Wand otherwise, and this feat requires a physical Strike to trigger which wouldn't work with Foxfire or Sprite's Spark.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ryuujin-sama wrote:

Was really hoping to go for a Wand focused Thaumaturge, possibly with Kitsune/Spirit for a ranged unnarmed strike to keep the ranged elemental damage flinger theme. I just am not sure how to actually make it viable. Especially since the Thaumaturge class DC doesn't scale like spellcaster spell DCs.

I found a grand total of one feat, unless I missed something, that could help Wand so long as you are attacking the target of your Exploit Vulnerability. But Exploit Vulnerability doesn't help Wand otherwise, and this feat requires a physical Strike to trigger which wouldn't work with Foxfire or Sprite's Spark.

Once wand gets to adept, think of it like unlimited Alchemist's Fire/Bottled Lightning/Frost Vial but with better damage at the cost for 2 actions. It inflicts debuffs/persistent damage on a regular failure (vs needing crit fail for most cantrip rider effects).


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Ryuujin-sama wrote:

Was really hoping to go for a Wand focused Thaumaturge, possibly with Kitsune/Spirit for a ranged unnarmed strike to keep the ranged elemental damage flinger theme. I just am not sure how to actually make it viable. Especially since the Thaumaturge class DC doesn't scale like spellcaster spell DCs.

I found a grand total of one feat, unless I missed something, that could help Wand so long as you are attacking the target of your Exploit Vulnerability. But Exploit Vulnerability doesn't help Wand otherwise, and this feat requires a physical Strike to trigger which wouldn't work with Foxfire or Sprite's Spark.

That's my problem exactly. Cursed effigy is great for wand. I figured I would have to settle with a thrown weapon to use it. Foxfire would still be there but would just be an option rather than the standard. You could also simply use a fist attack to activate cursed effigy if you wanted to.


I'm thinking the solution might just be to carry a rapier and use foxfire for switch hitting.


Hello guys, so, a question about Thaum more front line, we know that HP via class, we can't change, so in this case the AC that is more flexible, what would be the ideal AC in the first levels so that a Thaum could survive shall we say at the beginning of your career? I really don't want to get stuck with the human, so I'm thinking about orc,(HP), and getting Sentry on the second level. What, along the levels, means "survive", HP, AC, saving throws? Grateful!


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Hello guys, so, a question about Thaum more front line, we know that HP via class, we can't change, so in this case the AC that is more flexible, what would be the ideal AC in the first levels so that a Thaum could survive shall we say at the beginning of your career? I really don't want to get stuck with the human, so I'm thinking about orc,(HP), and getting Sentry on the second level. What, along the levels, means "survive", HP, AC, saving throws? Grateful!

AC ain't that flexible either. Get the armor +Dex cap of 5, or get splint mail or half plate. You can't use shields, but you could use the shield spell if you pick it up from an ancestry.

Orc is a good ancestry for survivability. Hold Scarred, Orc Ferocity, and Superstition all help. Dwarves get similar options but also take a Charisma penalty so they aren't ideal. And toughness obviously helps.


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Hello guys, so, a question about Thaum more front line, we know that HP via class, we can't change, so in this case the AC that is more flexible, what would be the ideal AC in the first levels so that a Thaum could survive shall we say at the beginning of your career? I really don't want to get stuck with the human, so I'm thinking about orc,(HP), and getting Sentry on the second level. What, along the levels, means "survive", HP, AC, saving throws? Grateful!

Sentinel dedication at 2 upgrades you to scaling heavy armor, toughness at 3 gives you more hp and a reach weapon will help curb enemy attacks by forcing them to spend an action each turn moving back towards you while triggering your weapon reaction (the faster they die the less damage you take).


thanks, I've seen that ranged weapon has been the goal, but I'm trying to avoid spending on feats to have weapons like this, and whip with d4, it hurts... even with the extra damage. but thanks for the tips!


Another question, this one of a more general scope, but I would use it on my Thaum if I went this way, but let's say I go with a normal whip, and I knock out my enemy, a humanoid for you to understand the scenario better, in case I kill him later , would that be an "act of evil"? We will have a champion in the group, (Paladina or Redeemer),... can this be a problem?


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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Another question, this one of a more general scope, but I would use it on my Thaum if I went this way, but let's say I go with a normal whip, and I knock out my enemy, a humanoid for you to understand the scenario better, in case I kill him later , would that be an "act of evil"? We will have a champion in the group, (Paladina or Redeemer),... can this be a problem?

The Redeemer is going to want to give them another chance, at least. At the same time, if they can be successful at redeeming foes, then that can be quite useful.

Paladin has nothing specific against this.

If killing them would be "an evil act" then Champions following the Tenets of Good aren't allowed to do it themselves, but in many cases, if they were recently trying to kill you, it wouldn't be. If the enemy is an "innocent", then it gets thornier, but that starts getting pretty improbable.

...and, of course, you need to deal with their deity's anathema, though that's unlikely to matter too much.

In general, this can be a problem if the GM and/or the Champion in question decide to make it a problem. There's no reason it has to be, and a Redeemer who's allowed to be successful (rather than having a GM force them into the narrative role of "why we have to keep letting our enemies get away so that they can do more bad things") can be pretty cool. You're going to have to judge for yourself whether your table's Champion and/or GM is likely to behave this way.

Liberty's Edge

Sanityfaerie wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Another question, this one of a more general scope, but I would use it on my Thaum if I went this way, but let's say I go with a normal whip, and I knock out my enemy, a humanoid for you to understand the scenario better, in case I kill him later , would that be an "act of evil"? We will have a champion in the group, (Paladina or Redeemer),... can this be a problem?

The Redeemer is going to want to give them another chance, at least. At the same time, if they can be successful at redeeming foes, then that can be quite useful.

Paladin has nothing specific against this.

If killing them would be "an evil act" then Champions following the Tenets of Good aren't allowed to do it themselves, but in many cases, if they were recently trying to kill you, it wouldn't be. If the enemy is an "innocent", then it gets thornier, but that starts getting pretty improbable.

...and, of course, you need to deal with their deity's anathema, though that's unlikely to matter too much.

In general, this can be a problem if the GM and/or the Champion in question decide to make it a problem. There's no reason it has to be, and a Redeemer who's allowed to be successful (rather than havaing a GM force them into the narrative role of "why we have to keep letting our enemies get away so that they can do more bad things") can be pretty cool. You're going to have to judge for yourself whether your table's Champion and/or GM is likely to behave this way.

Also the anathema, tenets, ... apply only to the Champion. Not to the rest of the party.

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