Premature discussion about the Thaumaturge


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The free swap is for the implement's action. For a weapon implement, that's Implement's Interruption. So you need to make sure your gun is loaded whenever you put it away and hope you trigger a reaction to pull it back out.

IDK that just sounds like way more hassle than its worth considering the jezail's downsides when you could just use a clan pistol or something instead.


Squiggit wrote:

The free swap is for the implement's action. For a weapon implement, that's Implement's Interruption. So you need to make sure your gun is loaded whenever you put it away and hope you trigger a reaction to pull it back out.

IDK that just sounds like way more hassle than its worth considering the jezail's downsides when you could just use a clan pistol or something instead.

I'm not sure if that's the best interpretation of implement swapping. It makes passive implements much more difficult to use and makes it unreasonable to have 2 passives and still hold a weapon. Having the class feature not function for 1/3 of the subclasses seems like not the intention.


aobst128 wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

The free swap is for the implement's action. For a weapon implement, that's Implement's Interruption. So you need to make sure your gun is loaded whenever you put it away and hope you trigger a reaction to pull it back out.

IDK that just sounds like way more hassle than its worth considering the jezail's downsides when you could just use a clan pistol or something instead.

I'm not sure if that's the best interpretation of implement swapping. It makes passive implements much more difficult to use and makes it unreasonable to have 2 passives and still hold a weapon. Having the class feature not function for 1/3 of the subclasses seems like not the intention.

I 100% agree with this but I also have to point out it's problematic the other way too: If you make a Recall check and you have a Tome and a Lantern, can you then pull out both as a free action as both affect those checks?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
aobst128 wrote:
I'm not sure if that's the best interpretation of implement swapping. It makes passive implements much more difficult to use and makes it unreasonable to have 2 passives and still hold a weapon. Having the class feature not function for 1/3 of the subclasses seems like not the intention.

I agree with you completely. I just don't see a way to read "the implement's action" as intending to mean "any action the implement gives a bonus to." The use of 'the' seems to point to a specific action.

If that was the intent, obviously that would be a lot better, but I think the text could be much clearer on that.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I believe the passive implements are balanced around not getting the best of both worlds, i.e. you can't also use that hand to briefly grab an amulet to use the reaction and shuffle back.
The weapon is in a bit more of an awkward place since it does have the reaction, but I would say both RAW and RAI is that you need to trigger the reaction to free swap it.

I would find it less of an issue if you could easily swap your implements as one Interact action, but I don't believe that option exists.


Squiggit wrote:

you're still holding the jezail in one hand, even if it's also under your arm.

So you wiggle the barrel around and then shoot someone. Probably not the most elegant process, but it's there.

Jezail seems like kind of a terrible weapon for thaumaturges regardless though. GM is free to rule you can't hold a second implement while using one and you're never going to want to go into two-handed mode.

I guess it depends on how high you value a d8 damage die vs. d6 + the Fatal trait. Thaumaturges probably aren’t going to be landing critical hits super often since their key ability isn’t Dexterity, so a more damage on regular hits could be valuable.


Well, putting the hard mechanics of actions aside for a moment, just for the sake of image and fun, would a Thaumaturge work with a wand in one hand and a firearm in the other? Would a wand really be a good first implement for this creation? (I love the illustration of that iconic pistol from the first edition!)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Well, putting the hard mechanics of actions aside for a moment, just for the sake of image and fun, would a Thaumaturge work with a wand in one hand and a firearm in the other? Would a wand really be a good first implement for this creation? (I love the illustration of that iconic pistol from the first edition!)

It seems ok though finding actions to reload will get awkward.


Just the air repeater from what I've seen, but d4, (even with the extra damage from Thaumaturge), looks kind of meh... to cause d4 it seems better to go with leshy and shoot seeds in the other's faces, but d4 is really ugly ...but going from leshy, can I use that glove the monks use to get runes?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Xethik wrote:

I believe the passive implements are balanced around not getting the best of both worlds, i.e. you can't also use that hand to briefly grab an amulet to use the reaction and shuffle back.

The weapon is in a bit more of an awkward place since it does have the reaction, but I would say both RAW and RAI is that you need to trigger the reaction to free swap it.

I would find it less of an issue if you could easily swap your implements as one Interact action, but I don't believe that option exists.

Yeah, I assume that's probably the intent, but like I said it feels a little too punitive that it's so much harder to draw a passive implement out. Using the reading I outlined, if I'm holding my Bell, I can spend one action to switch to my Chalice and use it. If I want to instead put my bell away, switch to my Lantern, and Recall Knowledge, that takes my entire turn.

That just seems too bad to be true, even though I also acknowledge that the language seems reasonably clear. Additionally, as I said, it makes having multiple passive implements uniquely terrible, while there's no guidance in the book to really push players away from that until you dig into the swap mechanics.

Even if it doesn't appears rules consistent to me, allowing you to draw a passive implement as part of using a skill it improves seems like a really clean solution. After all the whole point of the swap is so you aren't stuck fumbling with your inventory and dropping items at your feet all combat, so it feels bad to bring it back by making passive implements too clunky.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Where does that leave the fatal aim trait? Can you trace with your second handin the weird quasi 1 handed mode?

When you have it 1h, you can. When you have it 2h you can't.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Hmm probably no good way to get Wild Winds Stance on a Thaumaturge at a reasonable level. Otherwise that could get them a ranged unarmed attack that does bludgeoning damage and has propulsive so they could even add some Strength to the damage. Hmm Agile but not Finesse so would need to be a Thaumaturge with decent strength anyway.


Ryuujin-sama wrote:
Hmm probably no good way to get Wild Winds Stance on a Thaumaturge at a reasonable level.

16th level.

Ryuujin-sama wrote:
Hmm Agile but not Finesse so would need to be a Thaumaturge with decent strength anyway.

Ranged is always dex by default: Finesse is for melee weapons/unarmed attacks.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Ah yeah of course.

So Leshy Seedpod gives a ranged unarmed strike at 1st level, not much range or damage but at least it can trigger Cursed Effigy and leaves a hand free for two, non weapon, Implements.

A few other options give ranged unarmed strikes but none that I can think of can trigger Cursed Effigy except the Wild Winds Stance. But an 8th level Monk feat is only available at 16th level or higher which is the worst option as far as when you can get them.

Mind Smith can get a ranged strike with your otherwise melee mind weapon at 8th level which seems to be a fairly common level for gaining ranged options. Max 30 feet though, no range increments, then again most of the natural ranged unarmed attacks have no range increments.

Champion archetype can grab Divine Ally at level 6 for Blade Ally which can get Returning on a weapon. Or you could just have a thrown weapon already that you then get a Returning rune on.

Could also get a one handed ranged weapon, though a lot of those will have problem with having a free hand to reload and/or requiring actions to reload.

A lot of these options, except maybe a gun, don't really take advantage of the long range of a Wand Implement, especially as you get higher levels and advance the Wand to getting better and better range. Don't see a range restriction on Cursed Effigy other than your last action was a successful strike that did physical damage to them.

Of the options I wish Sprite would work for Cursed Effigy but Leshy with Seedpod might be good for a Thaumaturge with a Wand and either a Regalia or Bell. Regalia adding damage to the Wand eventually or Bell potentially lowering enemy Reflex Saves. If willing to give up the second implement a Mind Smith at level 8 or Champion archetype at level 6 can give either a ranged strike or a thrown returning weapon. Thematically Mind Smith sounds better but mechanically is probably not as good as Champion Divine Ally Blade.


Ryuujin-sama wrote:

Ah yeah of course.

So Leshy Seedpod gives a ranged unarmed strike at 1st level, not much range or damage but at least it can trigger Cursed Effigy and leaves a hand free for two, non weapon, Implements.

A few other options give ranged unarmed strikes but none that I can think of can trigger Cursed Effigy except the Wild Winds Stance. But an 8th level Monk feat is only available at 16th level or higher which is the worst option as far as when you can get them.

Mind Smith can get a ranged strike with your otherwise melee mind weapon at 8th level which seems to be a fairly common level for gaining ranged options. Max 30 feet though, no range increments, then again most of the natural ranged unarmed attacks have no range increments.

Champion archetype can grab Divine Ally at level 6 for Blade Ally which can get Returning on a weapon. Or you could just have a thrown weapon already that you then get a Returning rune on.

Could also get a one handed ranged weapon, though a lot of those will have problem with having a free hand to reload and/or requiring actions to reload.

A lot of these options, except maybe a gun, don't really take advantage of the long range of a Wand Implement, especially as you get higher levels and advance the Wand to getting better and better range. Don't see a range restriction on Cursed Effigy other than your last action was a successful strike that did physical damage to them.

Of the options I wish Sprite would work for Cursed Effigy but Leshy with Seedpod might be good for a Thaumaturge with a Wand and either a Regalia or Bell. Regalia adding damage to the Wand eventually or Bell potentially lowering enemy Reflex Saves. If willing to give up the second implement a Mind Smith at level 8 or Champion archetype at level 6 can give either a ranged strike or a thrown returning weapon. Thematically Mind Smith sounds better but mechanically is probably not as good as Champion Divine Ally Blade.

So at the moment there are these two options for a Thaumaturge using wand, as the first implement I believe: Leshy or Thaum/Champion. Which one would be better, btw, is it worth the leshy's wand damage+unarmed damage compared to a d6 or d8 weapon? And why Regalia or Bell? Which would be better as a second and third implement? Grateful.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So normally Exploit Vulnerability doesn't really benefit the Wand. There is an 8th level feat called Cursed Effigy that lets you use an Action when your last previous action was a strike that did physical (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) against the target of your Exploit Vulnerability. So long as the target remains the target of your Exploit Vulnerability it takes a -2 Status penalty to its saves vs your Thaumaturge abilities like the Wand's Fling Magic.

So to make use of the feat you need some kind of physical strike at least once per Exploit Vulnerability target. The Champion feat, or a Mind Smith feat, or the Leshy's Seedpod give a ranged attack so you don't have to be in melee with an enemy that you want to later Fling Magic at. Of course one could just grab a thrown weapon and slap a Returning rune on it, or a onehanded range weapon but those have their own issues.

As for Regalia or Bell? Regalia's adept benefit, earliest for a 2nd implement is 11th level, does a few things but for the purposes of Wand it gives you and allies within your 15ft aura a +2 Status bonus to damage. Actually +3 at 11th level and +4 at 17th level. The Regalia is a passive Implement and you need to have it in your "hand" to gain its bonus. Can't really use it and Wand at the same time if you have an actual weapon in hand.

Bell on the other is a Reaction based Implement and so can switch between it and the Wand as a free action once a round when using the Bell's reaction or the Wand's Fling Magic. The Reaction is only against the target of your Exploit Vulnerability. It does two different things depending on if the target of your Exploit Vulnerability makes a Strike or Spell. If it was a spell then they must make a Fort save or be stupefied until the end of your next turn. If a strike they must succeed at a Will save or be either clumsy or enfeebled until the end of your next turn. It is your choice. But Clumsy means they have a penalty to their Reflex saves which makes your Wand's Fling Magic more likely to Succeed/Crit. Adept on Bell lets the Stupefied/Clumsy/Enfeebled last 3 rounds instead of until the end of your next turn.

If going for a build where you don't need to hold a weapon, like Leshy Seedpod, I could see going Wand, then Regalia for the Adept at 11th, then Bell at 15th since the 1 round penalty is baked in to the Initiate level. Then switch between Bell and Wand as needed. I guess you could also do the same with a weapon but you would need to switch the weapon out for one of your Implements after you use Cursed Effigy. Mind Smith would probably make that easier. Or the Juggler archetype.


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As a leshy, that item that monks use to enhance their unarmed attacks, Handwarp, I think so the name, would have any implications for me to use even if my seeds came out of another place in my body, (no personal evil!),? In theory dealing 2d4+2 Personal Antithesis,+2 Implement's Empowerment,+4 Charisma, using wand at 1st level, is it good damage and is it worth investing in that damage over the course of levels?


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
+2 Implement's Empowerment

Implement's Empowerment is for strikes and wands don't use strikes.

PS: Mortal Weakness/Personal Antithesis works for strikes too.


graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
+2 Implement's Empowerment
Implement's Empowerment is for strikes and wands don't use strikes.

Hmm, so from what I've seen it doesn't work in the attack with the seed..


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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
+2 Implement's Empowerment
Implement's Empowerment is for strikes and wands don't use strikes.
Hmm, so from what I've seen it doesn't work in the attack with the seed..

The seed in an unarmed attack and you Strike with those so they are good to go. Are you talking about a full round with a wand attack and a seed attack? If so then that works: I thought you where talking about just the wand attack.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That works so long as you already did Exploit Vulnerability on the target before hand. Of course if they already had a vulnerability higher than +2 you can go Mortal Weakness instead of Personal Antithesis. And if they happen to have a vulnerability specifically to the element of your Wand you can do well.

Also yeah Handwraps can work on all unarmed attacks including the Leshy's Seedpod.


graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
+2 Implement's Empowerment
Implement's Empowerment is for strikes and wands don't use strikes.
Hmm, so from what I've seen it doesn't work in the attack with the seed..
The seed in an unarmed attack and you Strike with those so they are god to go. Are you talking about a full round with a wand attack and a seed attack? If so then that works: I thought you where talking about just the wand attack.

Yes, exactly, the idea is at the beginning to use Explore Vulnerability, maybe move and do some other action, attack maybe... but it would just be to "start the events", my tactic would be this, use the seeds and then the wand, but I saw that Implement's Empowerment uses the term "causing it to deal 2 additional damage per

weapon damage die." Are the seeds considered "weapon"? Would they receive this damage bonus from Implement's Empowermet?


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
+2 Implement's Empowerment
Implement's Empowerment is for strikes and wands don't use strikes.
Hmm, so from what I've seen it doesn't work in the attack with the seed..
The seed in an unarmed attack and you Strike with those so they are god to go. Are you talking about a full round with a wand attack and a seed attack? If so then that works: I thought you where talking about just the wand attack.

Yes, exactly, the idea is at the beginning to use Explore Vulnerability, maybe move and do some other action, attack maybe... but it would just be to "start the events", my tactic would be this, use the seeds and then the wand, but I saw that Implement's Empowerment uses the term "causing it to deal 2 additional damage per

weapon damage die." Are the seeds considered "weapon"? Would they receive this damage bonus from Implement's Empowermet?

For a "start the events" for me would be a Demoralize, Exploit Vulnerability and a weapon/unarmed attack. Then I'd switch to wand and weapon.

Dark Archive

LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
+2 Implement's Empowerment
Implement's Empowerment is for strikes and wands don't use strikes.
Hmm, so from what I've seen it doesn't work in the attack with the seed..
The seed in an unarmed attack and you Strike with those so they are god to go. Are you talking about a full round with a wand attack and a seed attack? If so then that works: I thought you where talking about just the wand attack.

Yes, exactly, the idea is at the beginning to use Explore Vulnerability, maybe move and do some other action, attack maybe... but it would just be to "start the events", my tactic would be this, use the seeds and then the wand, but I saw that Implement's Empowerment uses the term "causing it to deal 2 additional damage per

weapon damage die." Are the seeds considered "weapon"? Would they receive this damage bonus from Implement's Empowermet?

That’s a point actually. Seed pods are unarmed Attacks, which aren’t weapon attacks as per the trait.

I don’t have the Book yet so I don’t know if it covers unarmed as well.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Implement's Empowerment merely requires you to Strike. There's no weapon requirement.


"When you Strike, you can trace mystic
patterns with an implement you’re holding to empower
the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per
weapon damage die."
This excerpt is from the book, this last part made me doubt...


graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
+2 Implement's Empowerment
Implement's Empowerment is for strikes and wands don't use strikes.
Hmm, so from what I've seen it doesn't work in the attack with the seed..
The seed in an unarmed attack and you Strike with those so they are god to go. Are you talking about a full round with a wand attack and a seed attack? If so then that works: I thought you where talking about just the wand attack.

Yes, exactly, the idea is at the beginning to use Explore Vulnerability, maybe move and do some other action, attack maybe... but it would just be to "start the events", my tactic would be this, use the seeds and then the wand, but I saw that Implement's Empowerment uses the term "causing it to deal 2 additional damage per

weapon damage die." Are the seeds considered "weapon"? Would they receive this damage bonus from Implement's Empowermet?
For a "start the events" for me would be a Demoralize, Exploit Vulnerability and a weapon/unarmed attack. Then I'd switch to wand and weapon.

Ah yes, Demoralize is a great addition, this would be my first date action sequence!


Wait, does the Scared penalty affect the standard DC I have to overcome with Esoteric Lore check?


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Wait, does the Scared penalty affect the standard DC I have to overcome with Esoteric Lore check?

Well, let's look at the rules for frightened: "You’re gripped by fear and struggle to control your nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal to this value to all your checks and DCs. Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1."

So... maybe?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Wait, does the Scared penalty affect the standard DC I have to overcome with Esoteric Lore check?

No; Exploit Vulnerability uses the standard DC for the level of a creature. It is not based on the statistics of the creature - you just use the level as the lookup for a table.


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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:

"When you Strike, you can trace mystic

patterns with an implement you’re holding to empower
the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per
weapon damage die."
This excerpt is from the book, this last part made me doubt...

Unarmed attacks still have weapon damage die, go and look at Handwraps of Mighty Blows, they refer to weapon damage dice.

"For example, +1 striking handwraps of mighty blows would give you a +1 item bonus to attack rolls with your unarmed attacks and increase the damage of your unarmed attacks from one weapon die to two"


Automaton Armament says that a part of my body is designed for combat, but it doesn't specify which part exactly, so could I have an appendage that would only function as such a weapon? For example a tail with pincers to deal 1d6 piercing damage and thus free my two hands. It would be possible?


Another thing I was looking at right now is the tailed goblin, with the hard tail feat I wouldn't take the extra damage from Implement's Empowerment, but it would deal 1d6+ Strength modifier + Personal Antithesis or Deadly Weakness, and allow me to have my hands free to two implements, one being the wand. Yes I know I run the risk of suffering an attack of opportunity, but in case I don't want to get Champion or some other option to have a ranged weapon attack, this would be a good option for me to become fit for Cursed Effigy? Now another thing I've seen, using the wand is two actions, attacking takes an action and Cursed Effigy also costs an action. Does Cursed Effigy's action have to be on the turn I attacked or can it be on the next turn? Say, wand, attack, end of my turn, next turn, Cursed Effigy, Wand. It is possible? And if so, is it worth it? Sorry for several questions, but I really can't draw all these techniques that you guys have. Grateful!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
I wouldn't take the extra damage from Implement's Empowerment

Why wouldn't you? It's basically free as long as you have a hand open/wielding an implement... and you just said you wanted to hold two impelements anyways.


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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Automaton Armament says that a part of my body is designed for combat, but it doesn't specify which part exactly, so could I have an appendage that would only function as such a weapon? For example a tail with pincers to deal 1d6 piercing damage and thus free my two hands. It would be possible?

No. It would specifically let you know if a body part that only works on a limb gives you an extra limb. Now you COULD make an argument for a pair of mouth pinchers giving you a bite but you'd have to get your DM to allow it as they can easily rule it's meant to be a hand pincer. It'd most likely be easier to just take Martial Artist Dedication.

LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
hard tail feat

Why take a feat when you can take the Razortooth Goblin heritage and get a 1d6 piercing, finesse bite? Then you could spend that feat on Fang Sharpener and turn that bite into a 1d8 piercing [no finesse] bite that causes bleed on a crit?

LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Does Cursed Effigy's action have to be on the turn I attacked or can it be on the next turn?

It works "As

long as you are Exploiting Vulnerability against that creature". Exploiting Vulnerability works "until you Exploit Vulnerabilities again."


Squiggit wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
I wouldn't take the extra damage from Implement's Empowerment
Why wouldn't you? It's basically free as long as you have a hand open/wielding an implement... and you just said you wanted to hold two impelements anyways.

It's because it says it's +2 per weapon die, and unarmed strike is not considered a weapon, (manufactured), from what I understand...


graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Automaton Armament says that a part of my body is designed for combat, but it doesn't specify which part exactly, so could I have an appendage that would only function as such a weapon? For example a tail with pincers to deal 1d6 piercing damage and thus free my two hands. It would be possible?

No. It would specifically let you know if a body part that only works on a limb gives you an extra limb. Now you COULD make an argument for a pair of mouth pinchers giving you a bite but you'd have to get your DM to allow it as they can easily rule it's meant to be a hand pincer. It'd most likely be easier to just take Martial Artist Dedication.

LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
hard tail feat

Why take a feat when you can take the Razortooth Goblin heritage and get a 1d6 piercing, finesse bite? Then you could spend that feat on Fang Sharpener and turn that bite into a 1d8 piercing [no finesse] bite that causes bleed on a crit?

Oh gosh, for some reason I forgot about this goblin lol! I really think it's a nicer sight to see a goblin clinging to someone!

LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Does Cursed Effigy's action have to be on the turn I attacked or can it be on the next turn?

It works "As

long as you are Exploiting Vulnerability against that creature". Exploiting Vulnerability works "until you Exploit Vulnerabilities again."

Hmm, I must have misunderstood, some things get confusing when I translate them into Portuguese, so from what I understand, I just trigger Cursed Effigy once per combat, right? That is, in the Exploit Vulnerability target obviously...


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
I wouldn't take the extra damage from Implement's Empowerment
Why wouldn't you? It's basically free as long as you have a hand open/wielding an implement... and you just said you wanted to hold two impelements anyways.
It's because it says it's +2 per weapon die, and unarmed strike is not considered a weapon, (manufactured), from what I understand...

Weapon die is a generic term, it's even used in the description for handwraps, as described in a post right before yours.


Squiggit wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
I wouldn't take the extra damage from Implement's Empowerment
Why wouldn't you? It's basically free as long as you have a hand open/wielding an implement... and you just said you wanted to hold two impelements anyways.
It's because it says it's +2 per weapon die, and unarmed strike is not considered a weapon, (manufactured), from what I understand...
Weapon die is a generic term, it's even used in the description for handwraps, as described in a post right before yours.

I really find this "difference" at least strange, (after all, high level martial artists are easily considered weapons...), I even saw a post on Reddit that dealt with this and some people said it was not the same thing, (weapon /unarmed strike), but I've even seen later that in a goblin feat, it says I do 1 bleed damage per weapon die, that's in an unarmed strike feat. Thanks for clarifying.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
I wouldn't take the extra damage from Implement's Empowerment
Why wouldn't you? It's basically free as long as you have a hand open/wielding an implement... and you just said you wanted to hold two impelements anyways.
It's because it says it's +2 per weapon die, and unarmed strike is not considered a weapon, (manufactured), from what I understand...
Weapon die is a generic term, it's even used in the description for handwraps, as described in a post right before yours.
I really find this "difference" at least strange, (after all, high level martial artists are easily considered weapons...), I even saw a post on Reddit that dealt with this and some people said it was not the same thing, (weapon /unarmed strike), but I've even seen later that in a goblin feat, it says I do 1 bleed damage per weapon die, that's in an unarmed strike feat. Thanks for clarifying.

Yes, they did make a distinction between a weapon attack and unarmed attack, but they didn't make a distinction of weapon dice. Very odd choice by Paizo in wording. However as you pointed out many unarmed strikes still reference weapon dice, as do the handwraps.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Invictus Fatum wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
I wouldn't take the extra damage from Implement's Empowerment
Why wouldn't you? It's basically free as long as you have a hand open/wielding an implement... and you just said you wanted to hold two impelements anyways.
It's because it says it's +2 per weapon die, and unarmed strike is not considered a weapon, (manufactured), from what I understand...
Weapon die is a generic term, it's even used in the description for handwraps, as described in a post right before yours.
I really find this "difference" at least strange, (after all, high level martial artists are easily considered weapons...), I even saw a post on Reddit that dealt with this and some people said it was not the same thing, (weapon /unarmed strike), but I've even seen later that in a goblin feat, it says I do 1 bleed damage per weapon die, that's in an unarmed strike feat. Thanks for clarifying.
Yes, they did make a distinction between a weapon attack and unarmed attack, but they didn't make a distinction of weapon dice. Very odd choice by Paizo in wording. However as you pointed out many unarmed strikes still reference weapon dice, as do the handwraps.

It makes a bit more sense if you read it from the Core Rulebook directly, where there is some additional leadup. I think it was just too word-count costly to say weapon or unarmed everywhere, so there is some special callouts saying "if you read weapon, it means weapon or unarmed attack". Specifically for the damage dice, it states that unarmed attacks calculate damage dice just like a weapon and that more specifically:

Quote:
Each weapon lists the damage die used for its damage roll. A standard weapon deals one die of damage, but a magical striking rune can increase the number of dice rolled, as can some special actions and spells. These additional dice use the same die size as the weapon or unarmed attack’s normal damage die.


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This is really good, so I can really benefit from Implement's Empowerment with unarmed strikes! Which makes me wonder which way to go: leshy gives me the "safety" of a ranged attack, but the damage is less. Orc gives me durability but the damage is average. Goblin does more damage but is more fragile. It's really something to think about...there are other ancestries with unarmed attacks, so I'll be studying some...but as I want to have my hands free (for implements...), I'll look for bites. Thank you all, I'm glad you can help me!

Liberty's Edge

Kitsune can get bite and foxfire.

Automaton or Sprite + Dhampir can get bite and ranged unarmed too. Also Goblin + Dhampir.


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The Raven Black wrote:

Kitsune can get bite and foxfire.

Automaton or Sprite + Dhampir can get bite and ranged unarmed too. Also Goblin + Dhampir.

It's not just Dhampirck: Ganzi for Smashing Tail, Beastkin for free attack[bite/beak/mandibles/ect], Tiefling for Form of the Fiend [Hoof, Jaws or Tail].


They are good options, but I found the damage to be very low in view of the iruxi that has d8. Am I missing something that compensates for a d4 or d6 of these mentioned?


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
They are good options, but I found the damage to be very low in view of the iruxi that has d8. Am I missing something that compensates for a d4 or d6 of these mentioned?

There are differences in damage type and traits: most don't matter for a str attack that's only going to be used 1/round and/or vs a single target so it's down to piercing vs bludgeoning. For instance, you're fighting a skeleton soldier, that d6 tail doesn't have to worry about the resist 2 vs piercing.

Other than that, there is the limitation of playing a lizardfolk: it's not for everyone.


Sorcerer multiclass seems excellent on Thaumaturge, and the class is a better bloodrager base than barbarian.

I like the idea of gnoll with the demonic bloodline for glutton's jaw. Get those temporary hit points while hitting your enemies, and I'd probably combine it with amulet to make them properly tanky.


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Just to confirm, and make it clear, but if I use a bite as an attack, and I already have three implements available, I can always leave the Regalia in one of my hands, and thus always enjoy its benefits, and the other two implements use/exchange on the other hand right?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Just to confirm, and make it clear, but if I use a bite as an attack, and I already have three implements available, I can always leave the Regalia in one of my hands, and thus always enjoy its benefits, and the other two implements use/exchange on the other hand right?

Yep.


Thanks!

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