Premature discussion about the Thaumaturge


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Scarab Sages

RE: The tome

So again, i don't want to be a nitpicking Nancy, but if you stop and read the adept text for the tome . . . it doesn't actually say you get the recall knowledge check for free . . . Nonat1 got it wrong (It is kind of implied, but not spelled out.) It also doesn't say you can opt out of it.

So, TECHNICALLY, RAW, if you have your tome out with the adept benefit, you HAVE to spend your first action OF EVERY ROUND doing a recall knowledge check. Even if not in combat . . . just striding down the road, your LG thaumaturge has to be constantly thinking of how to best stab their elf friend in the back because the elf's in front of him.

I am 100% Sure that is NOT what Paizo was thinking when the made that ability, but it is something I noticed while building my guide. Just like you can't choose NOT to have your mirror duplicate shatter when attacked with the adept benefit.


VampByDay wrote:

RE: The tome

So again, i don't want to be a nitpicking Nancy, but if you stop and read the adept text for the tome . . . it doesn't actually say you get the recall knowledge check for free . . . Nonat1 got it wrong (It is kind of implied, but not spelled out.) It also doesn't say you can opt out of it.

So, TECHNICALLY, RAW, if you have your tome out with the adept benefit, you HAVE to spend your first action OF EVERY ROUND doing a recall knowledge check. Even if not in combat . . . just striding down the road, your LG thaumaturge has to be constantly thinking of how to best stab their elf friend in the back because the elf's in front of him.

I am 100% Sure that is NOT what Paizo was thinking when the made that ability, but it is something I noticed while building my guide. Just like you can't choose NOT to have your mirror duplicate shatter when attacked with the adept benefit.

"At the start of your turn each round" is not something you add to a feature that is supposed to take an action. Pretty obvious to me the text is just missing the word "free" somewhere.

Also, out of combat you can just not hold it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

We’ve seen “at the start of your turn” language in plenty of other places already, and it’s never been taken to mean anything other than what’s stated happens.

For example, a Fighter with boundless reprisals doesn’t have to automatically use the reaction they gain every enemies turn, but on every enemies turn they do gain a reaction, Etc.

Scarab Sages

Again, I'm 100% sure paizo did not mean that, but like I said earlier, for a game that seems to pride itself for being as pedantic and spelled-out as possible, being as nit-picky and ticky-tacky as they can, this sticks out like a sore thumb.


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VampByDay wrote:
Guntermench wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:
If you are using it two hands, you are using it in two hands. If you are using it in one hand, you are using it in one hand. That is the thing we will check.
If you have something in two hands, it counts as two handed. If you have something in one hand, it counts as one...

Um, that's not what that says. That says 'If you are using it in two hands-both hands are used up. If you are using it in one hand, one hand is used up.

One-handed weapon is a CATEGORY of weapons, just like weapons with one bulk.

Listen, I'm not trying to be a bad guy here or stupid. I agree that the intent was probably not to let thaumaturge's implement empower with a one handed weapon held in two hands. But for a system that seems to pride itself on being extremely clear on the rules, there are several issues with the thaumaturge that aren't clear. For example, implement empowerment says that each hand should can only hold 'a single one handed weapon.' Does that mean your hand crossbow can't have a reinforced stock? Because a hand crossbow and a reinforced stock are two different weapons held by the same hand, then I guess it technicaly doesn't work, but I doubt that was the intent.

I think the intent would be:

"For implement empowerment to work, the thaumaturge must be holding at least one of their implements, and cannot be holding anything more than one-handed weapons, esoterica, and/or implements. Implement empowerment does not work if the thaumaturge is wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands, including weapons with the 1+ hands property."

This is not the case, but it is understandably confusing. One-handed weapon is not a category of weapon when we are talking about wielding, it is a state.

It is extra confusing because when the game is talking about selecting a weapon from the Equipment section, or defining a weapon that is not-yet-wielded, it will refer to the hands required as "one-handed" or "two-handed". But as soon as it is being wielded, the game really only cares about how you are wielding it rather than the number of hands required - unless it actually says the number of hands required to wield like the Shifting rune does.
Here is another post on the topic from Michael Sayre.

I can't really comment on the whole reinforced stock/attached items/combination weapons bit, as that is fairly unclear and I don't believe there is a clear RAW. But the hand part is concrete in the eyes of the designers.


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Tome/mirror + weapon seems like the best combat potential. Tome + regalia has incredible utility potential. You can make sure that you as well as your party are gonna succeed at just about any check with your flexible skills and follow the expert bonuses. Amulet + chalice makes you a pseudo champion with a lot of sustain. Bell + wand to force a lot of saves and get foes flatfooted and clumsy. Lots of combo potential with this class. Very excited.

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John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
With how much specific investment you would need for bombs, including the 14 intelligence, you might be better off using a dragon mouth pistol for splash damage purposes.
Yeah, I was mainly considering MCing into Alchemist for the support and utility from elixirs and alchemical tools but having to sacrifice physical stats, I was hoping the bombs' splash damage would trigger EV to make up for the lack of accuracy and damage. I was worried it'd be too cheesy and strong but yeah...after doing the math, you are right, it is definitely not worth the investment if one was to focus on bombs.

A Dual Classed Thaum/Alchemist would actually be incredibly strong. Cognitive Mutagen is one of the few things I can think of that gives a bonus to Lore checks on a whole, not just when used to recall knowledge. This is of course offset by the combat penalty, but that’s going to be something a high level alchemist can avoid.

Plus all the supplemental benefits of the class.


Guys, something that happened to me and I didn't understand, but I'm sure it's in my face and I didn't see it, but if I choose mirror as an implement and create my copy, if an enemy attacks me, does he know which I am real? Or does this somehow hinder the enemy's attack? Grateful!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
John R. wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
With how much specific investment you would need for bombs, including the 14 intelligence, you might be better off using a dragon mouth pistol for splash damage purposes.
Yeah, I was mainly considering MCing into Alchemist for the support and utility from elixirs and alchemical tools but having to sacrifice physical stats, I was hoping the bombs' splash damage would trigger EV to make up for the lack of accuracy and damage. I was worried it'd be too cheesy and strong but yeah...after doing the math, you are right, it is definitely not worth the investment if one was to focus on bombs.

A Dual Classed Thaum/Alchemist would actually be incredibly strong. Cognitive Mutagen is one of the few things I can think of that gives a bonus to Lore checks on a whole, not just when used to recall knowledge. This is of course offset by the combat penalty, but that’s going to be something a high level alchemist can avoid.

Plus all the supplemental benefits of the class.

Yeah, I think that would be incredibly strong simply because it does what Paizo suggests avoiding, being doubling up on a particular character role, both being item creation characters. Heck, does an Alchemist even really NEED a high intelligence outside of the few items and Toxicologist relying on class DC?

Dark Archive

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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Guys, something that happened to me and I didn't understand, but I'm sure it's in my face and I didn't see it, but if I choose mirror as an implement and create my copy, if an enemy attacks me, does he know which I am real? Or does this somehow hinder the enemy's attack? Grateful!

It doesn’t matter as both are “you” for the sake of effects which target you. You get to chose which one is you for most things, but which one an enemy hits doesn’t make a difference.

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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Guys, something that happened to me and I didn't understand, but I'm sure it's in my face and I didn't see it, but if I choose mirror as an implement and create my copy, if an enemy attacks me, does he know which I am real? Or does this somehow hinder the enemy's attack? Grateful!

I'm pretty sure the only time both instances of your character are not "real" is when you take an action, which you then decide which instance of you the action is originating from. Otherwise, it does not matter which instance of your character an enemy attacks, it will still take the effect of a successful attack.

The mirror image doesn't seem to be meant to distract or confuse as much as much as set up flanks and strategize positioning, possibly helping a bit in action economy, particularly when it comes to Stride actions.


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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Guys, something that happened to me and I didn't understand, but I'm sure it's in my face and I didn't see it, but if I choose mirror as an implement and create my copy, if an enemy attacks me, does he know which I am real? Or does this somehow hinder the enemy's attack? Grateful!

Basically, you decide which one is the real copy whenever you make a move action. If you take the adept benefit at 7th level, the real version is decided when one of them shatters, the one remaining is the real one. So both and neither are the real version. It's something of a superposition.


Xethik wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Guntermench wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:
If you are using it two hands, you are using it in two hands. If you are using it in one hand, you are using it in one hand. That is the thing we will check.
If you have something in two hands, it counts as two handed. If you have something in one hand, it counts as one...

Um, that's not what that says. That says 'If you are using it in two hands-both hands are used up. If you are using it in one hand, one hand is used up.

One-handed weapon is a CATEGORY of weapons, just like weapons with one bulk.

Listen, I'm not trying to be a bad guy here or stupid. I agree that the intent was probably not to let thaumaturge's implement empower with a one handed weapon held in two hands. But for a system that seems to pride itself on being extremely clear on the rules, there are several issues with the thaumaturge that aren't clear. For example, implement empowerment says that each hand should can only hold 'a single one handed weapon.' Does that mean your hand crossbow can't have a reinforced stock? Because a hand crossbow and a reinforced stock are two different weapons held by the same hand, then I guess it technicaly doesn't work, but I doubt that was the intent.

I think the intent would be:

"For implement empowerment to work, the thaumaturge must be holding at least one of their implements, and cannot be holding anything more than one-handed weapons, esoterica, and/or implements. Implement empowerment does not work if the thaumaturge is wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands, including weapons with the 1+ hands property."

This is not the case, but it is understandably confusing. One-handed weapon is not a category of weapon when we are talking about wielding, it is a state.

It is extra confusing because when the game is talking about selecting a weapon from the Equipment section, or defining a weapon that is not-yet-wielded, it will refer to the hands required as "one-handed" or...

Ah, that's a quote I was looking for but couldn't find.

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aobst128 wrote:
It's something of a superposition.

This makes the mirror sound so much cooler than it already was.


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Another combo is mirror + regalia. You can duplicate your aura.

Scarab Sages

Xethik wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Guntermench wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:
If you are using it two hands, you are using it in two hands. If you are using it in one hand, you are using it in one hand. That is the thing we will check.
If you have something in two hands, it counts as two handed. If you have something in one hand, it counts as one...

Um, that's not what that says. That says 'If you are using it in two hands-both hands are used up. If you are using it in one hand, one hand is used up.

One-handed weapon is a CATEGORY of weapons, just like weapons with one bulk.

Listen, I'm not trying to be a bad guy here or stupid. I agree that the intent was probably not to let thaumaturge's implement empower with a one handed weapon held in two hands. But for a system that seems to pride itself on being extremely clear on the rules, there are several issues with the thaumaturge that aren't clear. For example, implement empowerment says that each hand should can only hold 'a single one handed weapon.' Does that mean your hand crossbow can't have a reinforced stock? Because a hand crossbow and a reinforced stock are two different weapons held by the same hand, then I guess it technicaly doesn't work, but I doubt that was the intent.

I think the intent would be:

"For implement empowerment to work, the thaumaturge must be holding at least one of their implements, and cannot be holding anything more than one-handed weapons, esoterica, and/or implements. Implement empowerment does not work if the thaumaturge is wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands, including weapons with the 1+ hands property."

This is not the case, but it is understandably confusing. One-handed weapon is not a category of weapon when we are talking about wielding, it is a state.

It is extra confusing because when the game is talking about selecting a weapon from the Equipment section, or defining a weapon that is not-yet-wielded, it will refer to the hands required as "one-handed" or...

So I can buy a light bulk cold iron dagger, grip it in two hands, and use the transformation rune to turn it into a 2 bulk cold iron greatsword? I guess?!


VampByDay wrote:
Xethik wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Guntermench wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:
If you are using it two hands, you are using it in two hands. If you are using it in one hand, you are using it in one hand. That is the thing we will check.
If you have something in two hands, it counts as two handed. If you have something in one hand, it counts as one...

Um, that's not what that says. That says 'If you are using it in two hands-both hands are used up. If you are using it in one hand, one hand is used up.

One-handed weapon is a CATEGORY of weapons, just like weapons with one bulk.

Listen, I'm not trying to be a bad guy here or stupid. I agree that the intent was probably not to let thaumaturge's implement empower with a one handed weapon held in two hands. But for a system that seems to pride itself on being extremely clear on the rules, there are several issues with the thaumaturge that aren't clear. For example, implement empowerment says that each hand should can only hold 'a single one handed weapon.' Does that mean your hand crossbow can't have a reinforced stock? Because a hand crossbow and a reinforced stock are two different weapons held by the same hand, then I guess it technicaly doesn't work, but I doubt that was the intent.

I think the intent would be:

"For implement empowerment to work, the thaumaturge must be holding at least one of their implements, and cannot be holding anything more than one-handed weapons, esoterica, and/or implements. Implement empowerment does not work if the thaumaturge is wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands, including weapons with the 1+ hands property."

This is not the case, but it is understandably confusing. One-handed weapon is not a category of weapon when we are talking about wielding, it is a state.

It is extra confusing because when the game is talking about selecting a weapon from the Equipment section, or defining a weapon that is not-yet-wielded, it will refer to the hands required as
...

You don't get any benefit by doing so, so functionally you can't 2-hand it even if you say so.


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VampByDay wrote:
So I can buy a light bulk cold iron dagger, grip it in two hands, and use the transformation rune to turn it into a 2 bulk cold iron greatsword? I guess?!

No, and he addresses that in a post two posts down. Shifting is limited to "another melee weapon that requires the same number of hands to wield".

Michael Sayre wrote:
Yeah, that's the key clause there. You can wield a dagger in two hands, but it only requires one. Shifting looks at the minimum requirements rather than the active state.

It's literally the next two posts.


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Thanks for the clarification folks!


Now I'm in doubt: gun or mirror as the first implement? I want to go up to the crowd and hit!

Scarab Sages

Guntermench wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
So I can buy a light bulk cold iron dagger, grip it in two hands, and use the transformation rune to turn it into a 2 bulk cold iron greatsword? I guess?!

No, and he addresses that in a post two posts down. Shifting is limited to "another melee weapon that requires the same number of hands to wield".

Michael Sayre wrote:
Yeah, that's the key clause there. You can wield a dagger in two hands, but it only requires one. Shifting looks at the minimum requirements rather than the active state.
It's literally the next two posts.

That just makes things weirder. So a weapon implement HAS to be a one-handed implement. So let's say you take a Khakkara as your weapon implement, understandable as it is one of the few B/P weapons out there. So it works just fine as an implement, but then as soon as you wield it in two hands . . . what? All its implement powers shut off? It ceases to exist? It teleports out of your hand? It physically prevents you from putting a second hand on it? Since your implement HAS to be a one handed weapon, what happens if you choose one and then wield it two handed?

Ugh. I love the thaumaturge but I think it needed another pass or three through the editors.


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Maybe, but I also think most of the issues you brought up aren't really issues and read more like... trying to come up with GOTCHA scenarios that aren't really an issue with RAW or RAI.

I hope you aren't going to fill your guide up with these sorts of things.


I on the other hand won’t read your guides unless the phrase “ticky-tacky” appears at least three times.


Only way I could see utilizing a 1-2 handed weapon implement like the bastard sword is to pair it with another active implement and have a free hand for dual handed assault which only just edges out damage compared to empowered one handed attacks. Even then, probably not worth the hefty investment just for one attack per round that only has a little bit better average damage.


VampByDay wrote:
So let's say you take a Khakkara as your weapon implement, understandable as it is one of the few B/P weapons out there. So it works just fine as an implement, but then as soon as you wield it in two hands . . . what? All its implement powers shut off? It ceases to exist? It teleports out of your hand? It physically prevents you from putting a second hand on it? Since your implement HAS to be a one handed weapon, what happens if you choose one and then wield it two handed?

None of the above.

You just can't "trace patterns with an implement to empower it" (lacking a free hand to do so) and so will not benefit from Implement's Empowerment.

Everything else will work!


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rainzax wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
So let's say you take a Khakkara as your weapon implement, understandable as it is one of the few B/P weapons out there. So it works just fine as an implement, but then as soon as you wield it in two hands . . . what? All its implement powers shut off? It ceases to exist? It teleports out of your hand? It physically prevents you from putting a second hand on it? Since your implement HAS to be a one handed weapon, what happens if you choose one and then wield it two handed?

None of the above.

You just can't "trace patterns with an implement to empower it" (lacking a free hand to do so) and so will not benefit from Implement's Empowerment.

Everything else will work!

Yup. As mentioned, when you are looking solely at the equipment in any non-wielded sense, they generally refer to the hands required.

Otherwise, the hands used in wielding is how you determine if a wielded weapon is one-handed or two-handed. Even if you are two-handing a bastard sword, the number of hands required is still just one.

Liberty's Edge

Implement's Empowerment is here to boost your 1h-weapon damage to 2h-weapon numbers. Not to stack with those.

Similar to Deadly simplicity for Simple vs Martial weapon damage.

Scarab Sages

rainzax wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
So let's say you take a Khakkara as your weapon implement, understandable as it is one of the few B/P weapons out there. So it works just fine as an implement, but then as soon as you wield it in two hands . . . what? All its implement powers shut off? It ceases to exist? It teleports out of your hand? It physically prevents you from putting a second hand on it? Since your implement HAS to be a one handed weapon, what happens if you choose one and then wield it two handed?

None of the above.

You just can't "trace patterns with an implement to empower it" (lacking a free hand to do so) and so will not benefit from Implement's Empowerment.

Everything else will work!

If you screenshot in Nonat1, under the weapon implement (before it gets to initiate, it say you can choose ONLY one-handed weapons as your weapon implement.

@Squiggit My guide has maybe four side notes that discuss potential rules problems, and all of them end up saying 'talk to your GM until officially erattad. I wouldn't say it's full of them, and they are highlighted as notes so they are easy to ignore.

@LandSwordBear Stole that from the legal youtuber LegalEagle I'll. . . see if I can work them in (:P)

"Ticky-Tacky Objection"


A question. Paired link says that you can use touch abilities and spells at 30 feet with one guy of your team you pick etc. Does this work with the chalice? It is not very clear since it says "an adjacent ally" and does not present a range.

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RaptorJesues wrote:
A question. Paired link says that you can use touch abilities and spells at 30 feet with one guy of your team you pick etc. Does this work with the chalice? It is not very clear since it says "an adjacent ally" and does not present a range.

Chalice doesn't look to have an an actual range to augment. So I think its safe to say that Pair Linked doesn't interact with Chalice.

Scarab Sages

Hmmm, designing my Kitsune thaumaturge and I am having a hard time deciding between the unarmed foxfire build or my original strength-based melee beatstick one-handing a Kharraka.


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Kitsune Thaumaturge? Hmm, tell me more about it? I love exotic races and honestly, human enough is enough for me lol! But I take the opportunity to ask a few questions: the scroll feat and the ability to use the ability for any Recall test, (sorry I'm without the video now, I forgot the name of both ...), are they worth having both? I'm going human just for that...which one is better? Could you give me a glimpse, however superficial, of your kitsune creation? Grateful!


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VampByDay wrote:
Hmmm, designing my Kitsune thaumaturge and I am having a hard time deciding between the unarmed foxfire build or my original strength-based melee beatstick one-handing a Kharraka.

No idea what a kharraka is, but when you are playing a Kitsune and have the ability to make foxfire actually something remotely approaching decent, I'd say go for it.


So, I was looking through the books here and I came across Spined Azarketi, and I also saw the Hydraulic Deflection feat, which costs one action. I know it might not be the most powerful, but would it be a viable build? At least funny...

Scarab Sages

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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Kitsune Thaumaturge? Hmm, tell me more about it? I love exotic races and honestly, human enough is enough for me lol! But I take the opportunity to ask a few questions: the scroll feat and the ability to use the ability for any Recall test, (sorry I'm without the video now, I forgot the name of both ...), are they worth having both? I'm going human just for that...which one is better? Could you give me a glimpse, however superficial, of your kitsune creation? Grateful!

The idea I had, which I guess may clash with Lore a bit, was that there was a clan of Kitsune in charge of a sacred cave. Once a generation, a member of the clan was chosen to enter the cave and be ‘tested.’ If found acceptable, the spirit would grant them power, turning them into an Oracle.

My Kitsune was was the chosen one for this generation. She was schooled constantly, and her parents trained her rigorously in all the folk tales and any bit of knowledge she would need to be accepted by the spirit, but when her time came and she entered the sacred cave. . . Nothing. She found nothing, no spirit, no test. Her mother assumed that she was somehow ‘unworthy’ of even being tested and disowned her, banishing her from the clan. Now she wonders the land with her little to no magical skills but excess of magical training trying to make her way in the world.

Khakkara, misspelled it before


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I'm particularly interested in the foxfire build. The thaumaturge is likely going to be the best at utilizing it with your great consistent bonus damage. Pair it with a wand and be a pseudo spell slinger with martial proficiencies.


Interesting way to use kitsune, I really saw that foxfire can be very useful, despite the damage dice being low, the extra damage of the Thaumaturge more than compensates. Can Foxfire be chosen as a weapon implement? I'm thinking of mirror first, weapon second and maybe I'll take it last. But I also considered the Azarketi.


Now we have to figure out the flavor of what your handwraps are gonna look like when using foxfire.

Scarab Sages

LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Interesting way to use kitsune, I really saw that foxfire can be very useful, despite the damage dice being low, the extra damage of the Thaumaturge more than compensates. Can Foxfire be chosen as a weapon implement? I'm thinking of mirror first, weapon second and maybe I'll take it last. But I also considered the Azarketi.

Unarmed attacks are specifically NOT weapons, so no, can’t make it a weapon implement. But you can take regalia, which gives you (and all friend within 15’) a +2 (eventually 3, then 4) bonus to all strike damage, in addition to everything g else, and that works with foxfire.


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It's a shame, I was really hoping there'd be some unarmed support for WA, but the alternatives aren't bad either.

Foxfire is still kind of a crummy weapon, but if anyone can make it work... I mean, empowerment almost doubles its damage by itself.


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Squiggit wrote:

It's a shame, I was really hoping there'd be some unarmed support for WA, but the alternatives aren't bad either.

Foxfire is still kind of a crummy weapon, but if anyone can make it work... I mean, empowerment almost doubles its damage by itself.

My hot take is that it isn't worth focusing on Foxfire (and similar like Energy Beam) as your primary damage tool, but it is a nice fallback option for when you can't make it into range on an unarmed Thaumaturge. You can even use it as a weapon Thaumaturge, but you'll want to keep up with handwraps which is a big cost.

That's already a usage for other unarmed characters, but the fact that the Thaumaturge can pretty much autoqualify for the implement empowerment bonus damage is significant.


Squiggit wrote:

It's a shame, I was really hoping there'd be some unarmed support for WA, but the alternatives aren't bad either.

Foxfire is still kind of a crummy weapon, but if anyone can make it work... I mean, empowerment almost doubles its damage by itself.

It's not bad once you can put a damaging property rune on it compared to thrown weapons. Best to pair it with either 2 passive implements or a passive and an active. Otherwise, having a free hand might tempt you to just pick up a chakram until then. The property rune will close the gap almost entirely assuming you don't have a positive strength modifier.


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aobst128 wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

It's a shame, I was really hoping there'd be some unarmed support for WA, but the alternatives aren't bad either.

Foxfire is still kind of a crummy weapon, but if anyone can make it work... I mean, empowerment almost doubles its damage by itself.

It's not bad once you can put a damaging property rune on it compared to thrown weapons. Best to pair it with either 2 passive implements or a passive and an active. Otherwise, having a free hand might tempt you to just pick up a chakram until then. The property rune will close the gap almost entirely assuming you don't have a positive strength modifier.

Yeah until we get a way to add runes to reload 0 thrown weapons like shurikens (c'mon Treasure Vault), you should be up a damage property rune compared to a returning thrown weapon for a cost in gold, which averages to 3.5 damage, or some other form of utility.

You can somewhat get around the returning rune issue for a chakram and similar with two feats of Champion (blade ally) but I'd only recommend that if you also want the champion reaction - you won't get a ton from heavy armor as a Dex prioritized character (dex to hit). Or maybe with something like ancient elf.


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Xethik wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

It's a shame, I was really hoping there'd be some unarmed support for WA, but the alternatives aren't bad either.

Foxfire is still kind of a crummy weapon, but if anyone can make it work... I mean, empowerment almost doubles its damage by itself.

My hot take is that it isn't worth focusing on Foxfire (and similar like Energy Beam) as your primary damage tool, but it is a nice fallback option for when you can't make it into range on an unarmed Thaumaturge. You can even use it as a weapon Thaumaturge, but you'll want to keep up with handwraps which is a big cost.

That's already a usage for other unarmed characters, but the fact that the Thaumaturge can pretty much autoqualify for the implement empowerment bonus damage is significant.

Earthly Wilds Kitsune heritage gets you a d6 finesse jaws unarmed attack. That can be Implement Empowered, right?


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Xethik wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

It's a shame, I was really hoping there'd be some unarmed support for WA, but the alternatives aren't bad either.

Foxfire is still kind of a crummy weapon, but if anyone can make it work... I mean, empowerment almost doubles its damage by itself.

My hot take is that it isn't worth focusing on Foxfire (and similar like Energy Beam) as your primary damage tool, but it is a nice fallback option for when you can't make it into range on an unarmed Thaumaturge. You can even use it as a weapon Thaumaturge, but you'll want to keep up with handwraps which is a big cost.

That's already a usage for other unarmed characters, but the fact that the Thaumaturge can pretty much autoqualify for the implement empowerment bonus damage is significant.
Earthly Wilds Kitsune heritage gets you a d6 finesse jaws unarmed attack. That can be Implement Empowered, right?

Yup.


Xethik wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

It's a shame, I was really hoping there'd be some unarmed support for WA, but the alternatives aren't bad either.

Foxfire is still kind of a crummy weapon, but if anyone can make it work... I mean, empowerment almost doubles its damage by itself.

It's not bad once you can put a damaging property rune on it compared to thrown weapons. Best to pair it with either 2 passive implements or a passive and an active. Otherwise, having a free hand might tempt you to just pick up a chakram until then. The property rune will close the gap almost entirely assuming you don't have a positive strength modifier.

Yeah until we get a way to add runes to reload 0 thrown weapons like shurikens (c'mon Treasure Vault), you should be up a damage property rune compared to a returning thrown weapon for a cost in gold, which averages to 3.5 damage, or some other form of utility.

You can somewhat get around the returning rune issue for a chakram and similar with two feats of Champion (blade ally) but I'd only recommend that if you also want the champion reaction - you won't get a ton from heavy armor as a Dex prioritized character (dex to hit). Or maybe with something like ancient elf.

Hadn't considered champion archetype for blade ally. Even better damage output. I only thought about ranger just for gravity weapon. Doubles your empowerment bonus.


The biggest benefit of the foxfire build is definitely getting to play at ranged while skipping out on the weapon implement. Bell+Wand has a certain appeal to it.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
The biggest benefit of the foxfire build is definitely getting to play at ranged while skipping out on the weapon implement. Bell+Wand has a certain appeal to it.

For me Wand/Regalia on a Dark Fields Kitsune. I just dislike the class having Dubious Knowledge hard wired into it. :(


The unfortunate thing about the foxfire build is rampaging form won't be good if you don't have strength to replace your attack modifier with. If only rampaging form allowed for foxfire along with produce flame.


Rampaging form also doesn't list a tradition, so it's questionable if you could use your expert divine proficiency
from kitsune spell expertise with produce flame.

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