John R.'s page

John R. wrote:

Again, I think the issue with AI is it produces a sub-par product and can easily be outsourced for less cost. In union terms, it's essentially anti-union work and Paizo, as a union, should be against it and hold firm against it creeping its way through until it can be properly regulated and negotiated around.

Properly regulated by whom?

Hey now, I think that question is pushing this conversation to get too political. Lol. But short answer: the government.

Again, I think the issue with AI is it produces a sub-par product and can easily be outsourced for less cost. In union terms, it's essentially anti-union work and Paizo, as a union, should be against it and hold firm against it creeping its way through until it can be properly regulated and negotiated around.

Completely free, no ad, 100% Turing complete AI only. If an AI system can believably play through an entire campaign over multiple platforms with ever changing schedules, maybe even missing a game themselves from time to time while not trying to convince me of buying anything, yeah, sure, AI can get involved.

Currently, AI is mostly lazy and far too derivative and inauthentic and will likely be primarily used as a tool for monetization and advertising. It's just not a good fit for the hobby at the moment.

WotC will likely always be the leader in the hobby and already has a bad reputation in business practices so of course they'll use AI. Paizo is likely 2nd in the industry and it's on them to set an example for the rest on whats acceptable for the hobby because WotC has been dropping the ball and only gets by as well as it does due to capital and branding.

I didn't participate in the playtest but this is probably the baseline information to go off of here.

https://paizo.com/blog/impossible-playtest-debrief (the link doesn't work for some reason, so maybe copy/paste)

Are you referring to how the necromancer and runesmith might end up or what other new classes we might get?

I forgot you already mentioned stances which is a great example of why, yes, RAW, if it can only apply to a single "weapon", sure, fist strikes while in such a stance wouldn't work but it's SO dumb for it to work that way. Like...the divine power within you just gets shut off from a part of you that it could normally access if you change the position of your feet and hands in a perfectly healthy manner.

Ok, sounds like my last 2 questions are pretty clearly answered and explained by Hammerjack.

The 1st still seems iffy. Now, I'm wondering, if I choose my fist, is it one fist or both? What happens if that same appendage shapeshifts? And how is that different from physically modifying my natural hand from anything ranging from losing a finger to grafts? I definitely agree there's a lot of GM fiat involved with this one.

Ultimately, yes, The Raven Black, we need shifter badly. This system's limitations, while required for balance, just makes trying to build one with what we currently have too much of a square-peg-in-round-hole issue.

Moved this to Advice for you, John! I hope you get the help you need!

Thanks! I figured it'd get pushed to rules but whatever you think is best.

I'm trying to throw together an exemplar with druid archetype that utilizes untamed form and I'm not sure how it interacts with some other abilities so I have a few questions:

- If I take Hands of the Wildling, does that apply to ALL my unarmed attacks or just my default (fists) or can I at least choose an unarmed attack I'd gain from untamed form?

- If I take Energized Spark (earth [bludgeoning]) can that allow any of my unarmed attacks qualify for Titan's Breaker?

- Last, I'm a bit confused on this rule:

Your ikons can be etched with runes, upgraded, or otherwise modified as normal for items of their type. A body or worn ikon can have runes etched on it to apply to your unarmed attacks as though it were handwraps of mighty blows, though only one of your ikons can have these runes and no ikon can have both these and armor or weapon runes.

Does this mean I can only ever have weapon runes on a single ikon, even if I have multiple weapon ikons?

Maybe make a general feat that requires an extra action like Trick Magic Item but requires no skill check to cast beyond the first use. Then maybe add a flat DC 5 check to see if the wand becomes non-functional for the day or breaks altogether.

I don't think the animist's reactions are all that great. Most are weak and very limited. I think most Champion' Reactions beat out what animist has to offer. The reactive strike from embodiment of battle is nice but it still costs you an action. I think the status bonus to attacks is the only reliable appeal of the spell as you can grab weapon proficiency with a general feat or maybe make due with whatever proficiencies your ancestry can grant. I think going that direction and taking champion (justice) dedication might be better than relying on embodiment of battle. Then lay on hands is a good, reliable single target heal that compliments garden of healing's AoE.

But yeah, this still doesn't feel like it's going for as much of a pure striking/tanking martial role but more of a support/off-tank, like a warpriest. I could see the animist out-striking the champion occasionally but that's not really the champion's strength. Tanking on the other hand seems like the animist's biggest weakness after legitimate skills (ignoring using spells as stand-ins). I don't think you'll ever outshine a champion there unless you REALLY lean into it to the point that you may as well just play an actual heavy armor martial.

I like the current animist overall. I wanted a 2nd edition shaman and medium and I got both in a single package. I wanted my medium to be a bit more martial leaning like in 1e, but I can't complain too much.

I'm still not sure if it's too powerful. The liturgist needs knocked down a peg or the other practices need a buff to catch up. Some late level feats are definitely pushing some boundaries. I'm coming to the conclusion that if you put the animist in the hands of a power gamer with a group of non-power gamers, there's gonna be a lot of feel bad moments....but the same might be said of some other classes as well so..... It'll probably never be something I can 100% confidently decide on.

I think if a player that already has a hard time with complexity isn't ready to buy into the class from the start, yes, it's going to be way too complicated. Like, if a GM says, "the animist is the perfect class for your concept" but that player is leaning more toward druid or witch or something else that's simpler than the animist, they're going to have a bad time and might even be turned off from the system entirely if they're new.

Yeah, the thread more or less started off as "how does the animist hold up as a jack-of-all-trades and compare to something like thaumaturge?" and almost immediately turned into "but sorcerer!".

I'd like to retract this previous statement and correct it with:

"...and [the thread was] necro-ed into "but sorcerer!"

Upon reviewing, there was actually a lot of good varied material throughout before it died off.

Yeah, the thread more or less started off as "how does the animist hold up as a jack-of-all-trades and compare to something like thaumaturge?" and almost immediately turned into "but sorcerer!".

it's never about assessing the complete picture, or seeing how the Animist performs overall, it's always about claiming that the Animist can't possibly be overtuned, because they don't beat the literal best at X at the thing they're best at.

This is where I'm at with the discussion. I don't really care whether or not the animist is outshined in any role like damage where we have to find such specific white room examples to prove one side or the other. I mean, it SHOULD probably be outshined in every role but that's not the point....

It's like, every class is getting As in 1 or 2 subjects but failing everything else (which is a good thing in this system). The animist on the other hand is getting all Bs and Cs and maybe a couple Ds. That's the issue at hand - whether that's a good thing or not and if that aspect needs to be balanced.

Does the animist have a significantly higher role GPA than the rest of the classes (a class of classes :P )?

I'd like to add that Cardinal Guardians is basically ancestral memories that you can just freely add onto an apparition spell.

Also, on the topic of the spell slots, ignoring all other things, it seems to come down to a "would you prefer to be a psychic with additional spells from the witch dedication (non-occult) or a sorcerer?" sort of situation.

I just started a similar build (fighter with druid) using unlimited free archetype. I'm only level 6 and I've only played 2 or 3 sessions so a lot of this is still theory but....

My main takeaway is that you're suffering lowered AC for increased reach and improved movement and senses. I doubt the temp hp is going to make up for loss in AC.

Later you can get Rip and Tear or heightened untamed shift can help add some persistent damage, 2 types if you take Insect Shape while keeping a good AC.

Spell slots will probably be able to add more utility when needed, maybe ranged cantrips if you can't manage to fly. If you have adequate time before a fight, there's plenty of options to buff yourself beforehand. Enlarge lasts 5 minutes so that's fairly easy for a pre-buff. Resist energy and mountain resilience also have long enough durations so you can save them for a big fight for the day while ensuring they last throughout the fight but also not spend much if any actions during the fight on casting them.

Fighter is nice because you get to use most of your feats in untamed form still. I looked at monk as well and was really heavily considering it. If monk is quickened while not polymorphed, they can do something like Flurry of Blows, stride a long distance or just strike again or use a maneuever and then cast something like electric arc. It really came down to action economy and higher defenses (mountain stance) versus accuracy, MAP reduction and what I find to be more interesting feats, most of which only mattered while NOT polymorphed.

I believe The Raven Black is referring to how the Martial Artist archetype no longer contains the following:

"Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in all unarmed attacks."

Therefore, you can no longer have a constantly crazy high attack bonus while polymorphed with untamed form, such as if you were a fighter multiclassed into druid followed by Martial Artist.

I'd buy 3rd party for hybrid material. I'd almost buy such 3rd party exclusively if they went really gonzo style with it.

This could be part of the problem. As the only tanky character, the repetition of '(1) EV, stride, raise shield, (2) step, strike, raise shield' is not really being caused by your class, it's being caused by your role in the party.

This is a great point. Thaumaturge is generally not a tank. It's another rogue-type of class. If you do want it to act as a tank, you don't even have the right implement, being the amulet or shield. You probably need to either re-build your character or just not tank anymore. You're likely no more suited to tank than the party rogue....or even the gunslinger. In fact, the rogue can actually wield a shield without it being a detriment to their class's functionality.

We might still get this book next gencon... Hopefully.

I really don't expect it to take that long. The playtest was released Dec. 2024. I expect the book to release Q1 or early Q2. A whole year and a half sounds WAY to long. So far I think books have usually released 13-14 months after playtest, not 18.

I just realized the playtest explicitly states that the book will be released in 2026, so that has me less confused and concerned on why we haven't gotten much new info on this yet.

John R. wrote:

From my end, it looks like you need to adjust some spacing or something on pages 6 and 10. A whole half or full page starts on the far right edge but is severely cut off.

That's a running issue with the Homebrewery; depending on your browser size and resolution it can cause text to go over the readable columns. I've asked the developers about this, and the workaround is so clunky and manual as to not really be feasible unfortunately.

Yup, just switched from phone to PC and it reads fine now. Will look it over.

From my end, it looks like you need to adjust some spacing or something on pages 6 and 10. A whole half or full page starts on the far right edge but is severely cut off.

I thought they maybe didn't want it to overshadow SF2's launch but...not even an announcement on the title...yeah, very confusing and almost concerning.

Kinda glad this topic came up because it addresses a concern I had. I have a character that I want to give heavy wooden armor purely to keep up with a druidic ascetic but it seems like the downside should be its lack of durability. If it's common practice to just ignore equipment durability, is taking the lighter bulk and benefits of the wood armor group just cheesing the system at that point? Is this something I should be concerned about? I'd rather not influence the use of exploits.

I'd say for one last shot, try to get your GM to run using proficiency without level. It's probably the only way to get closer to what you want with summons. It can make games more swingy however.

Oh this isn't an issue nor does it need clarifying errata. The abilities interact exactly as they say they do with Foundry also having this fully automated. You have also accurately found the reason why.

Fighter gets a proficiency bump when using a certain weapon group, And not all unarmed attacks are in the brawling weapon group nor is there anything that would put them in said weapongroup unless otherwise stated. Infact of the top of my head I know of like a dozen unarmed attacks from the Sling, Dart, club and knife groups. And even those lacking categories entirely.

Ugh. I'm not very familiar with unarmed attacks granted from ancestries since I usually play humans but those are some pretty damning examples. Thank you. Not happy with the answer but it's pretty convincing.

I was building a fighter with the druid dedication. I was pretty confident it would work, then the automation on Foundry wasn't upgrading my proficiency for my battle form unarmed attacks. I looked into it and I guess since these unarmed attacks aren't explicitly in the brawling group, they don't qualify for the upgrade.

It looks like this is an issue others have ran into but I can't find any official clarification. Has this been errata'd or clarified yet or do we have to assume fighters can't advance all unarmed attacks early based on wording?

John R. wrote:

If I ran with a player using Annoint Ally as an exploration activity, I'd probably give them drained 1. Otherwise, I don't see any issue with spending an action to slap it on an ally before they open every door with a potential threat on the other side.

This can get more and more hilarious. Days have passed, the sorc is pale, drained 3, feels terrible, his pals all have blood runes all over them.

Sorc is begging for rests and is eating as much food as he can.

As they reach the entrance to the dungeon, the fighter is carrying the pale, unconscious sorcerer who has drained all his blood to keep the ally anointed.

___

Yeah. I'm not allowing that. The rules may allow it, but it looks crazy in play. Too strange.

XD

Keeping a continually open wound such that you lose even as little as a drop of blood per second will have you lose over 2 liters in half a day, which is usually the amount considered to be fatal. It’s the same principle as when you’re told to fix leaks in your pipes and faucets even if it seems like a slow drip: it adds up, and quicker than you think.

So I think your point here is that, unless the sorcerer has some means of magically extracting a drop of blood without breaking skin, the sorcerer is going to either need to create an open wound significant enough that it won't heal without intervention to regularly supply blood OR they will end up riddled with hundreds of pin pricks over the course of a day which in themselves will likely lead to infection or maybe exhaust the body through forcing it to actively heal multiple small injuries (not sure if that's really a thing). Yeah, I can see that.

Oh, but further:

Generally, a person can lose up to 10% of their blood volume (approximately 500 milliliters) without feeling any significant effects.

And:

The average adult human body contains about 5 liters of blood, though this volume varies by factors like weight, age, and sex.

So 10% of 5000 mL is 500 mL which is far more than the 50 mL produced in a 24 hr period....

So maybe, the character actually wouldn't suffer any adverse effects from a very slow continuous bleed (1 drop/minute).

Forgive me for using Google AI answers:

Trying to define "a drop":

A single drop of water typically has a volume of approximately 0.05 milliliters (mL).

The new cells are formed in the bone marrow and transported through fine bones to the bloodstream. On a normal basis the rate of loss and reproduction is about 50 millilitres per 24 hours.

That translates to roughly 0.035 mL of blood produced a minute.

Yeah, a drop of blood a minute would actually actively slowly exhaust a typical human of their blood overtime.... I think after an extended period, a realistic penalty is warranted.

I think the key point is that Defend is an exploration activity, Annoint Ally is not. Defend gives the benefit of having your shield raised but is not the same as Raise Shield. Same relationship between Search and Seek. Annoint Ally does not have an exploration activity that keeps it up at all times.

However, there is this sub-section of exploration activities:

"Improvising New Activities

If a player wants to do something not covered by other rules, here are some guidelines. If the activity is similar to an action someone could use in an encounter, such as Avoid Notice, it usually consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute (such as using the Sneak action 10 times) or an alternation of actions that works out similarly (such as Search, which alternates Stride and Seek). An activity using a quicker pace, corresponding to roughly 20 actions per minute, might have limited use or cause fatigue, as would one requiring intense concentration.

You might find that a player wants to do something equivalent to spending 3 actions every 6 seconds, just like they would in combat. Characters can exert themselves to this extent in combat only because combat lasts such a short time—such exertion isn’t sustainable over the longer time frame of exploration."

So I think using Annoint Ally as an exploration activity can be ran as RAW but its still early and my coffee hasn't woken my brain up completely yet.

If I ran with a player using Annoint Ally as an exploration activity, I'd probably give them drained 1. Otherwise, I don't see any issue with spending an action to slap it on an ally before they open every door with a potential threat on the other side.

John R. wrote:

I think the other practices just need another minor action to ride on sustaining as well. Recall knowledge or seek for seer, strike for medium and command familiar for shaman all seem fine to me.

Famously minor action Strike.

Considering you can currently pull off a free sustain with Skirmish Strike, I don't think a single strike is too far fetched, especially if they reversed the order with the bonus action triggered by the sustain and not the other way around, as it currently is.

What's weird is that in the playtest the Animist had Sustaining Dance, a 2nd-level class feat that let you Step or Leap and Sustain in one action. Although the effect was already considered very strong back then, it was still a lot less prone to abuse than Dancing Invocation, and had the benefit of being available to Animists of any practice. An assortment of different feats that let you Sustain a vessel spell at the same time as some small action, like Recalling Knowledge or even Demoralizing, could definitely help Animists get their action economy in a way that could cater to a variety of flavors and builds.

Yeah...it's almost like they went in the completely wrong direction with it...other than making it a 9th level ability...

I think the other practices just need another minor action to ride on sustaining as well. Recall knowledge or seek for seer, strike for medium and command familiar for shaman all seem fine to me.

Not gonna lie, the real reason I don't like liturgist is the narrative. I don't want all my animist characters hopping and dancing around. It's the minstrel bard trope all over again. Lol.

I see, access means you’d have to pick when you make your character what apparitions are even in your potential pool of apparitions.

Yes.

That makes option 1 really bad and makes it almost impossible for them to use feats that burn apparitions throughout the day. It also removes the class narrative of the Animist being the class that can come to the river and reach out to commune with the spirits of the river because it is there, and then reach out to commune with other spirits as they encounter them in the world.

The only one that would be able to play that way is locked in to one primary apparition all the time and that doesn’t really make sense.

Again, this is a hastily thought up idea for an overhaul that would require a lot more work to flesh out properly, both mechanically and narratively. It's not like I'm throwing out ideas and expecting them to be top-selling 3rd party material.

There is also the fact that 10 secondary apparitions turns your abilities that burn them into nearly limitless resources. When you first hit apparition’s quickening, you’d be able quicken almost every apparition spell that could be quickened.

If you're referring to my alternate practice idea, read it again. I never suggested having 10 attuned apparitions at once. Also, if the class were to ever be overhauled THAT much, I'm sure there would be major changes to some feats as well.

You know your whole spell list with no effort nor cost

That's something I've taken for granted that is a big deal, especially when mixed in with all the signature spontaneous spells animists get. It seems minor but I think it's a subtle but major strength of the class.

John R. IIRC gave examples a while back of practices that would let you choose a larger number of permanent apparitions versus a smaller number of daily apparitions, which would allow fans of either type of model to be happy. Alternatively, rather than offer more fixed apparitions, practices could offer some equally powerful benefit as an alternative to daily apparitions, such as a version of Dancing Invocation at level 1 or something equally build-defining.

Yeah, it was in another thread and I also threw out the idea during playtest (perhaps further fleshed out). The only issue with that is it would add a lot more complexity to the class's entirety and I'm not sure if simplifying other aspects would still overcome that added complexity to generate a net positive in favor of simplification. It'd make it simpler to play AFTER building a character but it'd be a nightmare for some looking to build one for the first time.

Here's that last post about it:

Another idea I had that I suggested during playtest was having the subclass dictate different allowances in the number of accessible apparitions, limit of attunable apparitions, primary apparitions and ease of swapping primaries and/or attuned apparitions. It'd be way more complex but allow for possibly the most diverse class.

For example:

Practice 1 - access to 10 apparitions, can attune to 2 max, stuck with 1 primary each day and can't swap primary

Practice 2 - access to 6 apparitions, can attune to 3 max, 1 primary, able to swap primary during refocus

Practice 3 - access to 4 apparitions, can attune to all 4, attuned apparitions are always primary

I'm sure there could be 1 or 2 other variations but yeah...I thought it was a cool idea but probably broken on what's acceptable for complexity.

Oh yeah...forgot about Channel Smite. That looks like a mighty tasty multiclass for a melee animist now...

How do we feel the animist compares to warpriest on martial capability, keeping polymorph options in mind (not that they necessarily matter)?

I think Easl might be expressing that the animist's slot progression feels like a psychic with a non-occult witch multiclass (but with a faster progression). Since you only get 2 slots per rank of occult and 2 slots per rank of whatever other tradition, you miss out on the ability to spam particular spells as much as a bard or sorcerer might enjoy in exchange for the versatility.

Aside from the flexibility, I like the animist because it adds a ton of flavor to divine spellcasting which I find to be very bland. The cleric and oracle are definitely effective but they don't have the flair I get from arcane and animist adds that.

in practice, that power doesn't necessarily translate to enjoyment so much as annoyance.

"With great power comes great responsibility." - Some Buzzkill

To me, it falls into the pattern that I see generally in the Animist. You do competetive things in your role as a mostly divine caster as you should, and you have a solid chassis, but if you branch out into other roles like martial or crafter/skill monkey, you never reach the overall effectiveness of a specialist of another class in that role.

Yeah, this is where I'm at but where I can sympathize with Teridax as well. Animist doesn't have the raw power of a specialist but can also copy their gimmicks which I think is what Teridax is after.

For example, yes, at level 1, an animist can pull off 2 reactive strikes....but they have to spend 3 actions prepping to do so (embodiment of battle, Circle of Spirits, store time).

So it's kinda like:
"Look what I can do guys!"
"Pfft...yeah, I can do that too...just gimme a minute...almost there...*pop* There we go! (Not so special now are we?)"

I think it really just depends on the group or player on if copying a gimmick is OK if it's balanced out with extra action cost (which liturgist then often violates).

John R. wrote:

Have you read my animist guide and the section on how the animist can cover the function of a lot, if not most, basic skill actions with their apparitions?

Yeah, and I fundamentally disagree with your view of lore skills, like a lot of people in the comments IIRC.

Thinking that circus lore can allow you to replace acrobatics or forest lore can allow you to replace survival is just something that doesn't happen.

If your GM does it this way (or if you're the GM and you do it this way) then more power you, and it certainly gives a huge power boost to the animist.

I'm talking mostly through spells. Your spells can accomplish the goals of a lot of basic skill actions if not more.