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If I had to guess on Diverse Lore, it would just let you use Esoteric Lore on any topic, but perhaps at a penalty if it isn't a creature/hazard/haunt, filling a gap of the playtest feat Esoteric Lore.I am curious how the Ammunition Thaumaturgy feat will work - it might be key for playing a ranged weapon Thaumaturge - but I'm not sure if it will let you use 1+ hand weapons. Totally could, though? Yeah, I'm guessing that or tacking on additional knowledge on Exploit Vulnerability, like how Find Flaws worked with Recall Knowledge.
I am curious how the Ammunition Thaumaturgy feat will work - it might be key for playing a ranged weapon Thaumaturge - but I'm not sure if it will let you use 1+ hand weapons. Totally could, though? NoNat just posted an image of it on Twitter. It lets you reload using the same hand that is holding your implement. Edit: Oh and now I see some feat called Diverse Lore right below that one so now I'm really curious what THAT feat is about.
It doesn't work exactly like that. When you spend the intensify action, you roll a d20 and you can decide to use that on your next attack or make another roll. So you can't pick the better one since you have to go with your second roll if you forgo the first roll. It works similarly to devise a strategem.It's not the same thing but my understanding of a "roll 2 and take the better result" effect is roughly equal to a +5 bonus.Yeah. Your intensity effects do need to compete though. The weapons effect will probably be the better bet compared to the tome. Other implements have niche effects that could come in handy but the tome and weapon have to do directly with strikes. I don't know the math on this though. What's better, a fortune roll you can decide to use or not, or just a simple +2 to strikes?Ah, seems like intensify vulnerability only works on one implement at a time. A shame since weapon has the best intensity effect by a mile. Thought to combine it with tomes effect. That might have been too good.The Tome does give you a +1/+2 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to an attack on a successful Recall Knowledge which is also given for free at the beginning of your turn and the Weapon's Intensify effect gives a +2 STATUS bonus to attack rolls. That's pretty good. That's why I said it's not the same thing. Closest thing I could think of though.
Yeah. Your intensity effects do need to compete though. The weapons effect will probably be the better bet compared to the tome. Other implements have niche effects that could come in handy but the tome and weapon have to do directly with strikes. I don't know the math on this though. What's better, a fortune roll you can decide to use or not, or just a simple +2 to strikes?Ah, seems like intensify vulnerability only works on one implement at a time. A shame since weapon has the best intensity effect by a mile. Thought to combine it with tomes effect. That might have been too good.The Tome does give you a +1/+2 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to an attack on a successful Recall Knowledge which is also given for free at the beginning of your turn and the Weapon's Intensify effect gives a +2 STATUS bonus to attack rolls. That's pretty good. It's not the same thing but my understanding of a "roll 2 and take the better result" effect is roughly equal to a +5 bonus.
Ah, seems like intensify vulnerability only works on one implement at a time. A shame since weapon has the best intensity effect by a mile. Thought to combine it with tomes effect. That might have been too good. The Tome does give you a +1/+2 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to an attack on a successful Recall Knowledge which is also given for free at the beginning of your turn and the Weapon's Intensify effect gives a +2 STATUS bonus to attack rolls. That's pretty good.
One thing that's not clear to me and maybe someone can answer it for me: Do you have to not have any base proficiency for the day-to-day skill proficiencies you choose for Tome. If so, that's pretty weak if you manage to get trained in most or all of the skills. I know Lore skills would still be available but those can be very situational and GM dependent on how they are used.I feel like just not aiming to be trained in all the skills when you're planning on taking Tome is the easiest way to get around this. Especially since not being trained in all the skills is actually quite easy to do, especially if you want anything above Trained (which is highly recommended). Well my idea was I could do something like, get only trained in Medicine, enough to take Battle Medicine but let Tome take care of leveling it up when needed for the day, without having to actually invest in the higher proficiencies. That way I can get the higher healing from Medicine but only on days when I need it.
Can someone explain the Wand to me? It seems like it would feel really bad to use compared to a cantrip. I think the wand sucks at the initiate level but once you get it to adept you are able to switch between two damage types and inflict a debuff or persistent damage on an enemy's normal failure, not just a critical failure like most cantrips. Once it gets to paragon level, its a spammable mini-fireball with adjustable damage types and rider effects. That sounds awesome to me but I'm still pretty green when actually playing the game.
Even though we haven't seen most of the feats yet, I am very happy with the core features of the class and the implements. They added a lot and removed/changed very little. The only disappointment for me is probably how Exploit Vulnerability doesn't use Recall Knowledge. This class will heavily utilize Recall Knowledge on the majority of builds but the rules still haven't been cleared up. Esoteric Lore is awesome. They added an implement upgrade by default and it looks like there is still a feat that will get you adept on your 3rd implement, so that is great. Intensify Vulnerability gives every implement a handy 1-action ability. I'm totally stoked the bell implement actually debuffs and isn't the pseudo-counterspell I imagined from what was hinted at PaizoCon. Automatically getting master in fortitude with the auto crit success on a success is great while keeping legendary in will saves. All the new implements are awesome. They really allow this class to do anything well (maybe not great or the best but well). It's obviously a martial and then you can opt into "spellcasting", skills and utility, various facets of support, healing...it's just about got it all. One thing that's not clear to me and maybe someone can answer it for me: Do you have to not have any base proficiency for the day-to-day skill proficiencies you choose for Tome. If so, that's pretty weak if you manage to get trained in most or all of the skills. I know Lore skills would still be available but those can be very situational and GM dependent on how they are used.
Does the Psychic class have a broader psychic lore chapter wrapped around it, or is it just the class? I’d love to hear a little on their place in the setting beyond the broad strokes (big in Vudra, tied to aberrations, etc).Know Direction will do a deep-dive int the psychic on Monday. Anybody assigned the deep-dive on the Thaumaturge?
Not really sure this would qualify as an errata but.... So, the Fighter Dedication pretty much just gives proficiency in all but advanced weapons. The Champion Dedication gives proficiency in all armor types and all the cause/anathema baggage that comes with being a Champion. Other than that, these dedications only give training in a single skill and the class DC. My issue is. if I already have a class like the Ranger which automatically has proficiency in all but advanced weapons, taking the initial Fighter Dedication feels like a complete waste of a class feat. If I am a Fighter and take the Champion Dedication, again, I am getting nothing worth a class feat. (Just about nobody is going to be happy with trading a class feat for training in one skill). Does anyone else find this to be a problem for which Paizo should compensate some classes for already having the appropriate proficiencies or is it something that's not worth the attention in future revisions? Are Fighter and Champion feats good enough to justify the dedication as is and it's not even a problem and I'm just dumb? Edit: Ok, so Champion Dedication gives a whopping 2 trained skills!....Still, not worth the class feat IMO.
I see the Thaumaturge as a version of Bard that dropped the occult spellcasting and performance and amped up their knowledge of particular subjects from Bardic Lore (creatures, curses and haunts - becoming Esoteric Lore) and their martial capabilities. They are still a pseudo-magical jack-of-all-trades like the more traditional Bard but takes it from a different angle: less artsy and more lore-centric. This is my internal reasoning for "why charisma?". I think Mios's bio here reflects that.
From the Dark Archives Q&A: “What are some of your favorite new psychic spells?” James Case:
I think they were just cracking a joke, bud.If you are indirectly asking if anything was spoiled for a new Medium, the closest thing we got is an archetype called Living Vessel that involves an entity (examples: aberration, demon, fey) housing itself in your body and if you are taken down to 0 HP, it takes over your body, possibly as an NPC. You never know. Didn't want it to go ignored.
If you are indirectly asking if anything was spoiled for a new Medium, the closest thing we got is an archetype called Living Vessel that involves an entity (examples: aberration, demon, fey) housing itself in your body and if you are taken down to 0 HP, it takes over your body, possibly as an NPC.
Here's the conscious minds and what I understood to be their "thing": Distant Grasp - telekinesis
There was not, in fact, a secret playtest announcement in the playtesting panel. Logan posted a picture of a magic 8 ball reading "Signs point to yes!" when asked if there was going to be a playtest this year. Didn't specifically say if it was PF or SF or if it was a playtest that already ran but.....it may be something at least.
LocalDisasterTourGuide just put out this video that helps give answers for some or most of the classes.
I also hope that Thaums get legendary class DC though. It would help the MADness at the top end. Maybe if they drop the free skill bumps (somewhat unneeded now) there’s room in the class budget for the additional class DC bump. I think you mentioned this earlier and I wanted to say I agree. I thought about bringing it up during the playtest but thought, "Nah....no other class gets anything like that (other than spellcasters with spells). Why would the Thaumaturge? Why bother bringing it up?" Now I kinda regret not suggesting it. Lol.
Build I was using before Thaumaturge playtest released: Idea: Magical Monster Hunter
I guess the Thaumaturge takes advantage of the connection to bring the hurt to the creature. It is not an illusion or a merely mental effect. It is an attack supported by the fundamental threads that constitute the reality of the target. This works for me. Like, you're not turning your weapon into silver nor are you convincing the werewolf your weapon is silver when it's not but instead imbuing the proper spiritual/psychic essence that makes silver deadly against werewolves into the weapon.
On that last point, it is exactly how the Illusion spell Illusory Creature works. And half the damage is still there even if the werewolf successfully disbelieves.I think I can get behind this idea the most. Nothing implying that you might be omnipotent nor something as awkward as tricking something like a werewolf into taking damage from silver when not actually coming into contact with silver.I'll being back up my Persona reference and say that the Thaumaturge is using magic like the Phantom Thieves in Mementos. They aren't convincing the universe itself per se, but convincing the target so hard the universe sorta warps/molds under the pressure and reality slightly rewrites itself to make the thing the thaum is doing the case. They're a less insane version of the Orks of Warhammer, minor reality benders who subvert the RULES OF NATURE! to make what they believe real, no matter how improbable it may seem. "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"That's still convincing the universe since those things aren't psychosomatic. Kinda glad you pointed that out because the damage dealt is in the form of mental damage, which makes sense and I'd be more comfortable with. But then how would that work for mindless creatures?
I'll being back up my Persona reference and say that the Thaumaturge is using magic like the Phantom Thieves in Mementos. They aren't convincing the universe itself per se, but convincing the target so hard the universe sorta warps/molds under the pressure and reality slightly rewrites itself to make the thing the thaum is doing the case. They're a less insane version of the Orks of Warhammer, minor reality benders who subvert the RULES OF NATURE! to make what they believe real, no matter how improbable it may seem. "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"That's still convincing the universe since those things aren't psychosomatic. I think I can get behind this idea the most. Nothing implying that you might be omnipotent nor something as awkward as tricking something like a werewolf into taking damage from silver when not actually coming into contact with silver.
“…a passive implement that mysteriously writes down information about everything around you to assist you…”
“…inspire and lead your allies…”
“…debuff your enemies…”
“…misleads your enemies’ attacks…”
“Our plan is to disentangle Esoteric Antithesis from Recall Knowledge, instead just flat-out forcing your will on the universe with a check to establish a connection…even on a failure, you can forge a connection, but a success or critical success will give you more.”
“…we’re looking at offering multiple benefits a thaumaturge can pick from when you successfully forge a connection. This separates out the benefit where you apply a creature’s highest weakness and the benefit where you create a new weakness as two options…It also allows you to gain new benefits, for instance, when you might prefer a special buff or debuff instead of simply more damage…having a different connection for each implement…”
I’m very surprised nothing was mentioned about the idea of changing up the KAS. Even if they decided against it, it seemed heavily requested. Maybe it was a forum only topic. I’m still not keen on the idea of “convincing the universe to do stuff”. It comes off as if the universe is a creature you can manipulate to your will and feels awkward if you can pull that off relatively easily, yet countless beings within the universe still pose a challenge to you. I just hope there is some lore clarification that works it out as something else and not how I’m currently understanding it.
The last two playtests had an analysis 2 weeks after the playtest end if that helps.
Because nowhere in the scrolls or wands does it say you need access to the "spellcasting class feature." They always call out "Cast a Spell" activity. But they do say so on page 532 which I quoted earlier:
Why would they state the part I put in bold when the initial lvl 2 feat (the part that gives the cast a spell activity) is a prerequisite for the basic spellcasting feat?
But you also have to have the spellcasting class feature to activate such items. You specifically gain this feature from the basic spellcasting feat of a spellcasting dedication as per page 219: "A spellcasting archetype allows you to use scrolls, staves, and wands in the same way that a member of a spellcasting class can, and the basic spellcasting feat counts as having a spellcasting class feature." I don't think they would have specified that last part if it wasn't significant.
Thanks to each of you. Yeah, the rules are kind of hidden all over the place but things are much more limited than I thought now. I also found further clarification under the rules for "Activate an Item": CAST A SPELL
Thank you. Reading over the various rules on all of this in all the different locations has definitely made this all more complex. Alright, so to sum up: Something like a Champion would need to take Trick Magic Item to use ANY spellcasting item, even for divine spells. A non-spellcasting class that takes something like the Wizard dedication could begin using arcane spellcasting items as soon as they take the first dedication feat. Do I have that right? Now, I also have a player who is taking the Eldritch Researcher dedication and taking on an occult cantrip from it. How would they treat occult spellcasting items? I'm guessing they would still need to take Trick Magic Item even for occult spells as well, correct?
I was under the impression that Champions, Ki Monks and Rangers with warden spells could use scrolls, wands and staves as long as the item's spells were in the same tradition they were trained in to cast their focus spells. Then I found this: If you get focus spells from a class or other source that doesn’t grant spellcasting ability (for example, if you’re a monk with the Ki Strike feat), the ability that gives you focus spells also provides your proficiency rank for spell attack rolls and spell DCs, as well as the magical tradition of your focus spells. You gain the ability to Cast a Spell and use any spellcasting actions necessary to cast your focus spells (see below). However, you don’t qualify for feats and other rules that require you to be a spellcaster." Can anybody clarify if this means these classes can't use these spellcasting items without taking on an actual spellcasting multiclass or not?
It's too late for the survey but I figured I'd get in one last quick summary of my most recent experience with a level 3 Thaumaturge that was able to actually get in some serious combat. The fights were against lower level threats. The biggest fight was a party of 5 against a group of 6 foes at party level -3 plus a complex level 5 haunt that incapacitated one PC mid-fight. Find Flaws/Esoteric Lore: I got some pretty high rolls with Find Flaws and managed a couple critical successes when used with Esoteric Lore. It feels like metagaming when I gain access to that much information on an enemy and yet it feels awesome and I am not complaining. It helped my party make the best of a bad situation instead of making a major threat trivial. I really love these together and I'm sure they'll taper off in later levels but that's fine.....cuz it'll just get even better with Know-It-All Esoteric Antithesis/Implement's Empowerment: The damage from Esoteric Antithesis and Implement's Empowerment also feels strong but balanced. I am using spiked gauntlets so the damage is lower than what it could be but all the extra damage is enough to feel effective before I need to pull back due to the lower survivability of the class. Wand Implement: The damage feels pretty good. It's reliable when not used against enemies with the right resistances. It'll be exciting to see what it feels like once it gets improved. It's also very nice to have another option to both target a different defense and also deal a different type of damage than what you might normally be stuck with for your usual martial. Scroll Thaumaturgy: I will probably NEVER play a Thaumaturge without this feat. Being able to use any scroll my party comes upon has already proven extremely useful. I'm not proficient in divine spells and I don't plan to be but I've cast 2 or 3 such spells with this feat in only a couple sessions. It's amazing. Dubious Knowledge: It came up once. The information I got was a bit of a "it's either this way or that way", so it feels nice when the party has a couple options to work with instead of guessing blindly on how to fight an enemy.
If it's any consolation, it's not very anime-y, just the style. Honestly gives me a lot of dresden/Constantine vibes but she's definitely more stoicYou know, I've never been an anime person and my closest friends are always recommending a ton of them to me but with this one being so short, I might take you up on that. Thanks.TreseTrese? I watched Trese and a few animated DC movies with Constantine over the weekend. Trese is DEFINITELY a Thaumaturge. Constantine has similar vibes but has significant spellcasting abilities outside of what the Thaumaturge can offer on its own. I can understand the debate on if Constantine is a good example of the class.
If you are using the [commonly used] house rule of being able to ask X questions, then yes. I think it is intentional that it is supposed to be that strong though. As far as the negating the "secret" aspect of critical failures, I think they should specify that Recall Knowledge checks with Find Flaws no longer give false information on critical failures. Maybe treat them as normal failures with the 1 true/1 false of Dubious Knowledge. I think most everyone is in agreement that Find Flaws needs tweaking and/or Recall Knowledge needs a much needed clarification.
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