Premature discussion about the Thaumaturge


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I tend to equate whether a creature is redeemable to how they respond to Glimpse of Redemption. Might be worth discussing that point with your group and making sure everyone aligns on the point.

If a creature is redeemable you shouldn't kill them if you want to remain good, and a Redeemer shouldn't allow you to kill them either.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Also the anathema, tenets, ... apply only to the Champion. Not to the rest of the party.

...mostly true.

"You must never knowingly harm an innocent, or allow immediate harm to one through inaction when you know you could reasonably prevent it." is applicable to the rest of the party, even if it technically only applies to the Champion.

More broadly than that, the pragmatics of the matter are more about your table in specific than the letter of the law. Like, it would be entirely reasonable for a Redeemer to say "I'm not going to let you just kill prisoners without giving them a chance." Technically their tenets don't require them to, but that doesn't mean that they're not inclined to. Now, if you're willing to go along with that, that's cool. If you're down for some good old-fashioned intraparty strife (and everyone else is as well), then that can be good clean fun. Alternately, it can get ugly.

Basically my read is that the question was "I'm considering a whip. My party has a Paladin/Redeemer in it. Is having unconscious enemies at the end fo a fight rather than dead ones going to be a problem for me?" The answer is "That's an excellent question, and the answer depends entirely on your party and your GM and how the table dynamic is going to go. You need to ask them and not us." The question of what Champions are required to do by RAW is only the first of the questions that need to be answered here.

Captain Morgan wrote:

I tend to equate whether a creature is redeemable to how they respond to Glimpse of Redemption. Might be worth discussing that point with your group and making sure everyone aligns on the point.

If a creature is redeemable you shouldn't kill them if you want to remain good, and a Redeemer shouldn't allow you to kill them either.

...and this sounds exactly like the sort of person-specific interpretation that you need to get from both the GM and the Champion in question.

Of course, you also need to get it from yourself. In character, as the Thaumaturge, what do you think is appropriate behavior with people who are no longer a threat because you've knocked them unconscious? Is it okay to slit their throats? Is it okay to loot them and leave them destitute and defenseless in the wilderness? Is it okay to sacrifice them to Zon-Kuthon in hours-long torture rituals? Is it more okay to do these things if they're gnomes? These are questions only you can answer.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'll also note a variety of creatures are immune to non-lethal damage, including undead and constructs, so you'd take a -2 to attack them. If you're not actually interested in taking people alive, you're better off with a scorpion whip. Or better yet, the new Asp Coil if you don't plan on tripping and are strength based. Both have reach.


Thank you for the tips!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Hmm haven't really looked at Leshy much for a character, but their Seedpod feat at least does physical damage for Cursed Effigy. Though that does only have a 10 ft range increment.

Looking around a bit and in addition to Sprite and Kitsune there is also the Automaton for ranged unarmed attacks, though again fire damage so no Cursed Effigy.


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Ryuujin-sama wrote:

Hmm haven't really looked at Leshy much for a character, but their Seedpod feat at least does physical damage for Cursed Effigy. Though that does only have a 10 ft range increment.

Looking around a bit and in addition to Sprite and Kitsune there is also the Automaton for ranged unarmed attacks, though again fire damage so no Cursed Effigy.

Don't overlook the seedpod because of the range increment: sprite and kitsune have a range of 20', not a range increment so they are unable to fire at 25'+. This leads to things like being unable to use starlit span's spellstrike with sprite and kitsune unarmed ranged attacks because that have no range increment and being in the first increment is a requirement. It's a shame all the range increment penalty reduction feats do not work on unarmed attacks. Even a Sharpshooter Automaton's Automaton Aim doesn't do anything for Energy Beam feat: Automatons DO win out because they have a range increment of 20 with their energy beam, though they are limited to fire damage so that can be a minus or plus over the others. Of course you can also get Core Cannon for a 120' range increment unarmed attack as long as you don't mind being immobile.


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So is this discussion still premature now that the book is out? :)

Dark Archive

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Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
So is this discussion still premature now that the book is out? :)

Books not out for everyone yet! Street date is the 27th, and for us international subs... @paizo, put the order in the box please!

Scarab Sages

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I've got an eratta thread that I want to start concerning a bunch of iffy things about the thaumaturge. But I think I'll wait for the 27th


VampByDay wrote:
I've got an eratta thread that I want to start concerning a bunch of iffy things about the thaumaturge. But I think I'll wait for the 27th

Same here for a couple of things I've seen in the book (and have subsequently forgotten :), but I too think that would be for the best.


Which of these feats do you think is more advantageous, (or if you think both), in a character from Age of Ashes, Diverse Lore or Scroll Thaumaturge? I really like both (and that's the only reason I'm considering human), but is it really worth having both, or which one would be better? If only one is better, I will create an orc, (or other ancestry), and go with a whip, then I choose implement, (still in doubt between Weapon and Mirror), thank you!

Dark Archive

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VampByDay wrote:

I've got an eratta thread that I want to start concerning a bunch of iffy things about the thaumaturge. But I think I'll wait for the 27th

Start it now sure. You might save some people a lot of googling come release day.


Old_Man_Robot wrote:
VampByDay wrote:

I've got an eratta thread that I want to start concerning a bunch of iffy things about the thaumaturge. But I think I'll wait for the 27th

Start it now sure. You might save some people a lot of googling come release day.

I agree, it would be very helpful.

Scarab Sages

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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
VampByDay wrote:

I've got an eratta thread that I want to start concerning a bunch of iffy things about the thaumaturge. But I think I'll wait for the 27th

Start it now sure. You might save some people a lot of googling come release day.
I agree, it would be very helpful.

I started, over in the gameplay and rules section.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Which of these feats do you think is more advantageous, (or if you think both), in a character from Age of Ashes, Diverse Lore or Scroll Thaumaturge? I really like both (and that's the only reason I'm considering human), but is it really worth having both, or which one would be better? If only one is better, I will create an orc, (or other ancestry), and go with a whip, then I choose implement, (still in doubt between Weapon and Mirror), thank you!

The two feats are doing very different things really come down to party composition.

The scroll feat chain is a pretty stellar way to make up for not having spell casters. Being able to prepare utility spells across every tradition will open doors for martial parties. But if you're in a party with 3 casters of different traditions already, you don't need it nearly as much.

Diverse Lore basically makes you into the single best fountain of knowledge in the game. But if you're partied with a Shisk rune witch and Gnome Investigator then you don't really to focus on that.

So who are you going to be partying with?


Captain Morgan wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Which of these feats do you think is more advantageous, (or if you think both), in a character from Age of Ashes, Diverse Lore or Scroll Thaumaturge? I really like both (and that's the only reason I'm considering human), but is it really worth having both, or which one would be better? If only one is better, I will create an orc, (or other ancestry), and go with a whip, then I choose implement, (still in doubt between Weapon and Mirror), thank you!

The two feats are doing very different things really come down to party composition.

The scroll feat chain is a pretty stellar way to make up for not having spell casters. Being able to prepare utility spells across every tradition will open doors for martial parties. But if you're in a party with 3 casters of different traditions already, you don't need it nearly as much.

Diverse Lore basically makes you into the single best fountain of knowledge in the game. But if you're partied with a Shisk rune witch and Gnome Investigator then you don't really to focus on that.

So who are you going to be partying with?

So, we will play Age of Ashes, we will have a spellcaster but he still hasn't defined what exactly, but it will be between Wizard, Cleric or Sorcerer, a Redeemer Champion or Paladin, a Ranger and a Rogue.

Other than me from Thaum, everyone will use classes and ancestry from the Basic Book, and at first, no Free Archetype.


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Which of these feats do you think is more advantageous, (or if you think both), in a character from Age of Ashes, Diverse Lore or Scroll Thaumaturge? I really like both (and that's the only reason I'm considering human), but is it really worth having both, or which one would be better? If only one is better, I will create an orc, (or other ancestry), and go with a whip, then I choose implement, (still in doubt between Weapon and Mirror), thank you!

The two feats are doing very different things really come down to party composition.

The scroll feat chain is a pretty stellar way to make up for not having spell casters. Being able to prepare utility spells across every tradition will open doors for martial parties. But if you're in a party with 3 casters of different traditions already, you don't need it nearly as much.

Diverse Lore basically makes you into the single best fountain of knowledge in the game. But if you're partied with a Shisk rune witch and Gnome Investigator then you don't really to focus on that.

So who are you going to be partying with?

So, we will play Age of Ashes, we will have a spellcaster but he still hasn't defined what exactly, but it will be between Wizard, Cleric or Sorcerer, a Redeemer Champion or Paladin, a Ranger and a Rogue.

Other than me from Thaum, everyone will use classes and ancestry from the Basic Book, and at first, no Free Archetype.

If the spellcaster is going to be a Sorcerer, I’d say go with the scroll feats. That way the sorcerer can focus on blasting and general-use utility spells while you can prepare more specialized utility spells depending on the day’s situation.


A question about the amulet implement. At level 7 do I get both benefits? And the resistance offered by the Adept perk, is it against the chosen damage of all targets, or just the target of Exploit Vulnerability? I didn't quite understand how both work together... Thank you.


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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
A question about the amulet implement. At level 7 do I get both benefits? And the resistance offered by the Adept perk, is it against the chosen damage of all targets, or just the target of Exploit Vulnerability? I didn't quite understand how both work together... Thank you.

it's when you use the level 1 ability, so yes, you do get both benefits.

The resistance is specifically against one type (whatever either you or your ally chooses) that was dealt by the triggering attack.

---

To make it simple:

your target of Exploit vulnerability makes an attack.
You use your reaction and you give resist all X to the target of the attack.
That's the level 1 benefit.

With the level 7 benefit, in addition to the above, either you, or the one you shielded, chooses one typoe of damage that was dealt by this attack, and until the start of your next turn, he gets Resist Y against that.

---

Take note that the way this "extra resistance" is given, it doesn't matter if you get it before or after the actual strike damage, it will always be lower than the Resist All value that triggered it to begin with, and since resistances do not stack, it wouldnt make a difference (even if you would get it before the strike damage, you would always choose the Resist All value instead of the resist 5/10)


Thanks!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Question: Is using Esoteric Lore to do the Exploit Vulnerability action considered a "knowledge check" or not? I'm looking to see if there is a way to boost that check a bit and wondering if something like a Brooch of Inspiration would work to give a better chance at Exploit Vulnerability.

As a related situation, if it is a Recall Knowledge check it would also impact whether we could try again on the same creature. According to RAW, a failed knowledge check means you cannot try another knowledge check on the same target.


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Invictus Fatum wrote:

Question: Is using Esoteric Lore to do the Exploit Vulnerability action considered a "knowledge check" or not? I'm looking to see if there is a way to boost that check a bit and wondering if something like a Brooch of Inspiration would work to give a better chance at Exploit Vulnerability.

As a related situation, if it is a Recall Knowledge check it would also impact whether we could try again on the same creature. According to RAW, a failed knowledge check means you cannot try another knowledge check on the same target.

It's a skill check rather than a RK check. Since it's against a standard DC.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
aobst128 wrote:
Invictus Fatum wrote:

Question: Is using Esoteric Lore to do the Exploit Vulnerability action considered a "knowledge check" or not? I'm looking to see if there is a way to boost that check a bit and wondering if something like a Brooch of Inspiration would work to give a better chance at Exploit Vulnerability.

As a related situation, if it is a Recall Knowledge check it would also impact whether we could try again on the same creature. According to RAW, a failed knowledge check means you cannot try another knowledge check on the same target.

It's a skill check rather than a RK check. Since it's against a standard DC.

Yup, no Recall Knowledge. It is its own thing that loosely resembles RK. Brooch of Inspiration won't help, and you mostly just need to avoid crit failure and you can do it again next round.

The item would still be a solid choice, especially if you take Diverse Lore, because you can still use Esoteric Lore to Recall Knowledge.


By the way, if I use Diverse Lore in other topics instead of RK, does it get the "secret" trait or does it still count as Esoteric Knowledge?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
By the way, if I use Diverse Lore in other topics instead of RK, does it get the "secret" trait or does it still count as Esoteric Knowledge?

Recall Knowledge still has the secret trait regardless of Diverse Lore. Exploit Vulnerability doesn't have the secret trait but that is a distinct action from RK. Nothing removes the secret trait from Recall Knowledge in Esoteric Lore.

Scarab Sages

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Captain Morgan wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
By the way, if I use Diverse Lore in other topics instead of RK, does it get the "secret" trait or does it still count as Esoteric Knowledge?
Recall Knowledge still has the secret trait regardless of Diverse Lore. Exploit Vulnerability doesn't have the secret trait but that is a distinct action from RK. Nothing removes the secret trait from Recall Knowledge in Esoteric Lore.

I will note that Diverse Lore is the sleeper on the list and is just gross. Basically makes you better at recalling knowledge than an investigator (they only get to recall knowledge equal to your level, this is essentially equal to your esoterica lore skill at one less level of proficiency. Level 3+ you are basically trained in all lore skills (without the benifit of the DC decrees for lore, which, lets face it, half the authors forget.)


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VampByDay wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
By the way, if I use Diverse Lore in other topics instead of RK, does it get the "secret" trait or does it still count as Esoteric Knowledge?
Recall Knowledge still has the secret trait regardless of Diverse Lore. Exploit Vulnerability doesn't have the secret trait but that is a distinct action from RK. Nothing removes the secret trait from Recall Knowledge in Esoteric Lore.
I will note that Diverse Lore is the sleeper on the list and is just gross. Basically makes you better at recalling knowledge than an investigator (they only get to recall knowledge equal to your level, this is essentially equal to your esoterica lore skill at one less level of proficiency. Level 3+ you are basically trained in all lore skills (without the benifit of the DC decrees for lore, which, lets face it, half the authors forget.)

An investigator that nails specific lores is a little ahead of diverse lore considering the -5 modifier to RK dc vs the -2 on general lore skills. Diverse lore will outpace it at 7th level however since keen recollection doesn't scale.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Investigator also gets a circumstance bonus to knowledge checks most of the time from Pursue a Lead where the Thaumaturge takes a penalty.

But yeah, it is still really good, and a low investment.


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Of course, if you want to build for lore, a tome thaumaturge can definitely outpace an investigator if you know what lores you're gonna need that day and prepare them at max proficiency. Plan ahead for what you need and use diverse lore as a fall back.


So is Diverse Lore worth picking up?


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
So is Diverse Lore worth picking up?

I'd say so. If you're not interested in the feint like ability or scrolls, it's a solid choice.

Dark Archive

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Captain Morgan wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Invictus Fatum wrote:

Question: Is using Esoteric Lore to do the Exploit Vulnerability action considered a "knowledge check" or not? I'm looking to see if there is a way to boost that check a bit and wondering if something like a Brooch of Inspiration would work to give a better chance at Exploit Vulnerability.

As a related situation, if it is a Recall Knowledge check it would also impact whether we could try again on the same creature. According to RAW, a failed knowledge check means you cannot try another knowledge check on the same target.

It's a skill check rather than a RK check. Since it's against a standard DC.

Yup, no Recall Knowledge. It is its own thing that loosely resembles RK. Brooch of Inspiration won't help, and you mostly just need to avoid crit failure and you can do it again next round.

The item would still be a solid choice, especially if you take Diverse Lore, because you can still use Esoteric Lore to Recall Knowledge.

The only item I can think of that would boost it directly would be a Cognitive Mutagen, since it gives its bonus separately to Lore checks and checks to recall knowledge.


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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
So is Diverse Lore worth picking up?

Absolutely. Being able to consolidate all of RK in one skill for one character is an amazing benefit.

Let us look at a sample build that I totally didn't steal from someone else:

Ancestry feats:
Ageless patience (circumstance bonus)

Class feats
1 Diverse lore
2 free
4 sleepwalker dedication
6 vision of foresight
8 know it all (optional overspecialization)

Skill feats
Unmistakable lore (negate crit failure)

Items
Pendant of the occult (grants guidance as an innate spell)

Assuming no party assistance, at level 8 this gives you a +21 (+19 with the -2 penalty) to recall something while letting you roll twice and take the higher result with unlimited daily uses. Not really worth doing in combat, but good for pulling out information you might need when you have a breather.

You can boost the value further with cognative mutagens but the drawback on those means you don't want to use them unless you're sure you won't see combat anytime soon.


Very interesting, although I would have to be an elf or half-elf at best, I'm going as a half orc because of the hit points, if I followed your train of thought, (which is really valid!), I'd have to rethink my build. Although I'm aiming for Diverse Lore, I'm thinking about "going to the front line", (I'm thinking about getting Sentry on the second level), but I'll think about your idea! Thanks!


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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Very interesting, although I would have to be an elf or half-elf at best, I'm going as a half orc because of the hit points, if I followed your train of thought, (which is really valid!), I'd have to rethink my build. Although I'm aiming for Diverse Lore, I'm thinking about "going to the front line", (I'm thinking about getting Sentry on the second level), but I'll think about your idea! Thanks!

You don't have to be an elf: Adopted Ancestry. Ageless Patience doesn't have an age restriction like Ancestral Linguistics and Ancestral Longevity has so a 1/2 orc could take it.


graystone wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Very interesting, although I would have to be an elf or half-elf at best, I'm going as a half orc because of the hit points, if I followed your train of thought, (which is really valid!), I'd have to rethink my build. Although I'm aiming for Diverse Lore, I'm thinking about "going to the front line", (I'm thinking about getting Sentry on the second level), but I'll think about your idea! Thanks!
You don't have to be an elf: Adopted Ancestry. Ageless Patience doesn't have an age restriction like Ancestral Linguistics and Ancestral Longevity has so a 1/2 orc could take it.

You could also just rely on your party for that part. There are a few ways to Aid without having esoteric lore (inspire competence, one for all, untrained improvisation maybe). Ageless patience is only needed to be entirely self contained.


Personally I prefer to be self-sufficient, but this build looks tempting, although I like that "know-it-all" flavor (at least in theory), I really like being on the front lines, and I can't imagine a half-orc half- elf, it seems too bizarre to me... and I don't know if the GM would accept it... I'm going to use the ideas as a construction line and see how close I can get, it really seems like a very powerful skill, and how are we going to play Age of Ashes, something tells me that Knowledge in this campaign is very important. But thanks for the help, it's very important to me!


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LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
I can't imagine a half-orc half- elf

It's not 1/2 elf though: it can be 'born into [another ancestry’s culture and traditions], earned through rite of passage, or bonded through a deep friendship or romance.' So it can be that you had an elf adoptive parent, or an elf friend or girl/boy friend. There really just has to be an elf that is an important part of your backstory.


Unmistakable lore can be used in Esoteric Knowledge?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Unmistakable lore can be used in Esoteric Knowledge?

Yes, but not for Exploit Vulnerability.

Also, you don't NEED Ageless Patience to use Diverse Lore. It is still a banger of a feat, and there are other ways to get circumstance bonuses.

On thing worth establishing with your GM: will they use the unspecific lore DC reduction? Archive of Nethys has sort of established a standard where the answer would be yes, but universal lores go against the spirit of that.

Dark Archive

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gesalt wrote:

You can boost the value further with cognative mutagens but the drawback on those means you don't want to use them unless you're sure you won't see combat anytime soon.

All you need the mutagen for is that initial roll, so if you have the alchemist dedication for a supply of the mutagen, you could also pick up the Revivifying Mutagen feat to ends its effects.


Is it possible to make a viable fake caster thaumaturge who dumps STR and only attacks with a wand? This is something I always wanted to play, but the wand implement does not impress me at all so far.


I’ve seen wand/gun (air repeater) builds that do good damage.

Dark Archive

Xenocrat wrote:
I’ve seen wand/gun (air repeater) builds that do good damage.

I see a lot of people mention the air repeater, but I think I'm missing the draw of it in particular. Why does it seem to be the go-to for ranged weapons?


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Old_Man_Robot wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I’ve seen wand/gun (air repeater) builds that do good damage.
I see a lot of people mention the air repeater, but I think I'm missing the draw of it in particular. Why does it seem to be the go-to for ranged weapons?

1 handed, 0 reload, agile.

but mostly for the 1 handed 0 reload aspect.


Yes, with wand you need a one handed ranged/thrown strike that you can do every turn without an additional action cost.


Old_Man_Robot wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I’ve seen wand/gun (air repeater) builds that do good damage.
I see a lot of people mention the air repeater, but I think I'm missing the draw of it in particular. Why does it seem to be the go-to for ranged weapons?

Repeating hand crossbow looks like the best posible weapon for a ranged Thaum due to the 5 shots without reloading.

For a class with that much flat damage, an average of 1 less damage per damage die is not a big deal at all.


roquepo wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I’ve seen wand/gun (air repeater) builds that do good damage.
I see a lot of people mention the air repeater, but I think I'm missing the draw of it in particular. Why does it seem to be the go-to for ranged weapons?

Repeating hand crossbow looks like the best posible weapon for a ranged Thaum due to the 5 shots without reloading.

For a class with that much flat damage, an average of 1 less damage per damage die is not a big deal at all.

It is better. It's also Advanced though, so need more feat expenditure.

Dark Archive

shroudb wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I’ve seen wand/gun (air repeater) builds that do good damage.
I see a lot of people mention the air repeater, but I think I'm missing the draw of it in particular. Why does it seem to be the go-to for ranged weapons?

1 handed, 0 reload, agile.

but mostly for the 1 handed 0 reload aspect.

The reload is indeed the part I overlooked! Getting 6 shots in before you need to reload is pretty solid. I’m not thrilled with the weapon dice and the loss of strength to the flat damage though.

Scarab Sages

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While building out my thaumaturge guide, and looking for archetypes that synergies well, I found the Drow Shootist. They have a level 6 feat (only requires the dedication as a prerequisite) and allows you to reload and shoot a hand crossbow as a single action. Seems to solve our action economy problem with hand crossbows no? And leaves room free for a wounding rune or fire rune or whatever.

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