I'd kind of prefer it if the "Primal Martial" didn't require your character be based on shapeshifting. There's other ways to "fight with the power of nature" than turning into things.
I'd rather be able to "stand in the middle of a tornado that is centered around me" than "turn into a tornado."
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The Warden was really cool and really unique. It's not something I expect Paizo to get anywhere near, but I'd be really excited to see something like that. The idea of manipulating the world around you and controlling space, but doing so in a kind of martially-coded way that felt distinct from druidic spellcasting is very cool.
Have to agree with the above here too. I don't dislike shapeshifting, but I feel like it's an area of the game that already has a lot of room dedicated to it, and if we get another primal class I'd like to see it touch upon new area.
... And similarly, if we do get a 2e shifter, I'd rather it not sit in that blatantly primal/druidic design space. Shapeshifting covers a lot of topics and imo the biggest weakness of the 1e Shifter was that it just retread the same ground as the Druid.
I know Paizo has said they don't do checklists, but it is conspicuous that as of DA we've got one new caster of each tradition post-core (along with a couple of pick-a-list) except for Primal.
What would you want from a 2e primal book? It would need more than just two classes, but it’s a thematic space I never reach for myself.
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A 2e shifter that is more like the adaptive shifter archetype from 1e would be a ton of fun. It could specialize more into the morph trait, turning their limbs into natural weapons, growing wings, spinnerets, udders, whatever the heck. It would be a fun take on a primal martial.
What would you want from a 2e primal book? It would need more than just two classes, but it’s a thematic space I never reach for myself.
I dunno. I don't really think Paizo's likely to do books themed around a single tradition.
I could see a new primal class slotting in nicely in a book about exploration though.
What would you want from a 2e primal book? It would need more than just two classes, but it’s a thematic space I never reach for myself.
I would love to see a primal wave caster and a Shifter or Kineticist.
I'm starting to wonder if paizos vision for the Shaman might involve a spontaneous primal wave caster with some large mechanic at its center.
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What would you want from a 2e primal book? It would need more than just two classes, but it’s a thematic space I never reach for myself.
I'd imagine a section of the book focused around the material plane, a section focused on the elements (which seems like a good place to reintroduce the Kineticist class), and a section focused on the fey.
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What would you want from a 2e primal book? It would need more than just two classes, but it’s a thematic space I never reach for myself.I'd imagine a section of the book focused around the material plane, a section focused on the elements (which seems like a good place to reintroduce the Kineticist class), and a section focused on the fey.
Ayyyyy I'd be all about that! Roll in shaman as the material plane class and throw in extras for dms/players and it sounds like a great book!
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The thing worth keeping in mind about the primal tradition is that it has three big and pretty distinct thematic buckets (some of which are also shared with other traditions): the natural world, the fey, and the elements.
And frankly, each one of these could be a basis for a book unto itself (2e reimagining of Ultimate Wilderness, a fey bestiary+player options, and an elemental bestiary+player options), especially since some like the fey and the elements also cross over into other traditions and can also just be nonmagical entirely.
Druids do tap into the fey and elements a bit, but are kinda chiefly themed around nature more than anything, so I feel like there's absolutely room for a full-on fey-themed class (Charisma-based, potentially? Like what if fey sorcerer/summoner were full classes), or an elemental one (kineticist, or some re-imagining thereof, much like what happened with the thaumaturge).
Kineticist is pretty distinctly different both mechanically and thematically.
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So my favorite 4e class was the Warden, which was an incredibly tanky (because of the power of nature to curate life) primal class was also very sticky because they could make difficult terrain by like controlling roots, making the ground swampy, etc.
If we're going to have a martial primal class, I would prefer that to a shifter redux.
Give a class a huge HP pool, some self healing, natural reach, the ability to prevent people from getting away from them, and give them the ability to use stones, roots, thorns, etc. to fight.
I'd kind of prefer it if the "Primal Martial" didn't require your character be based on shapeshifting. There's other ways to "fight with the power of nature" than turning into things.
I'd rather be able to "stand in the middle of a tornado that is centered around me" than "turn into a tornado."
The Warden was really cool and really unique. It's not something I expect Paizo to get anywhere near, but I'd be really excited to see something like that. The idea of manipulating the world around you and controlling space, but doing so in a kind of martially-coded way that felt distinct from druidic spellcasting is very cool.
Kineticist.
So my favorite 4e class was the Warden, which was an incredibly tanky (because of the power of nature to curate life) primal class was also very sticky because they could make difficult terrain by like controlling roots, making the ground swampy, etc.
If we're going to have a martial primal class, I would prefer that to a shifter redux.
Give a class a huge HP pool, some self healing, natural reach, the ability to prevent people from getting away from them, and give them the ability to use stones, roots, thorns, etc. to fight.
I'd kind of prefer it if the "Primal Martial" didn't require your character be based on shapeshifting. There's other ways to "fight with the power of nature" than turning into things.
I'd rather be able to "stand in the middle of a tornado that is centered around me" than "turn into a tornado."
The Warden was really cool and really unique. It's not something I expect Paizo to get anywhere near, but I'd be really excited to see something like that. The idea of manipulating the world around you and controlling space, but doing so in a kind of martially-coded way that felt distinct from druidic spellcasting is very cool.Kineticist.
No. Very much not.
- The warden was almost pure melee. They were massive slabs of beef that were big on having lots and lots of HP backed by okay armor and inviting enemies to hit them in the face. They had basically no range ability at all. Standing in the middle of a tornado was totally a thing that they'd do, but it was standing in the middle of a tornado for the incidental benefits while hitting the enemy with a very large weapon, and possibly carrying a shield. Kineticists are more likely to be at range than up close, and when they are up close they're much more damage-focused than they are defense-focused. A kineticist with a personal whirlwind is trying to discourage enemies from getting close. A Warden with a personal whirlwind is trying to further punish enemies that they've successfully caught in the tarpit.
- Ironically, Warden was one of the most transformation-based classes in 4e. Every daily power they had came packaged with a transformation effect. Those were all things that added on, though, rather than replacing.
- As far as your implied claim that the Kineticist is martial.... This is a "new classes" thread. Let's not make it yet another "warring camps arguing about what the kineticist should look like" thread. Seriously. We had those. We'll surely have them again. Let it rest for right now.
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Not technically a completely "new" class, but I would like to see a warlock-type class. I know the witch is supposed to cover that fantasy, but it fails to do so for me in terms of mechanics and for the most part the vibe as well. Too much "regular spellcaster with some charms and a familiar" and not enough pacts with entities you [i]really[i] shouldn't be borrowing power from. Much more of a Rachel Morgan-style witch than what I'd be looking for.
But this isn't supposed to be an anti-witch post (and please don't treat as such!), so here is what I would be looking for:
Most important of all, your patron should be integral to your entire class and how it plays. They are the one you borrowed your magic from, after all. Patrons are not organized in terms of type of entity, but the purpose you borrowed your power for, i.e. your playstyle.
While it could work as either a full spellcaster or something more strange, the latter seems more appropriate. Your power is burrowed and therefore limited in scope, so you will have to make up the gap with other things. Not 5e eldritch blast spam, that is a bit silly, but something more in the direction the psychic is going. Playing around with cantrips and things that are technically spellcasting, but not from slots. Or maybe a caster equivalent to the magus?
Not a very well worked out concept, but hey, it's all I got ^^
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Personally I would like to see a class dedicated to Martial maneuvers/powers such as a spinzaku kick that where you jump 30ft and kick everyone in a straight line to your destination. Or the 5 finger exploding heart technique or first of the North Star stuff for high level.
How's stuff Monk already has not covering that? You have Quivering Palm and One-Milimeter Punch or Explosive Death Drop all doing the over-the-top-anime-inspired martial combat stuff already.
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Your talking about late level stuff that a lot of players never see, whereas I would like a class whose main focus would be on their martial powers so they could realise the concept a lot earlier.Personally I would like to see a class dedicated to Martial maneuvers/powers such as a spinzaku kick that where you jump 30ft and kick everyone in a straight line to your destination. Or the 5 finger exploding heart technique or first of the North Star stuff for high level.How's stuff Monk already has not covering that? You have Quivering Palm and One-Milimeter Punch or Explosive Death Drop all doing the over-the-top-anime-inspired martial combat stuff already.
I don’t know how much room “stronger Monk” has for design space.
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Your talking about late level stuff that a lot of players never see, whereas I would like a class whose main focus would be on their martial powers so they could realise the concept a lot earlier.Personally I would like to see a class dedicated to Martial maneuvers/powers such as a spinzaku kick that where you jump 30ft and kick everyone in a straight line to your destination. Or the 5 finger exploding heart technique or first of the North Star stuff for high level.How's stuff Monk already has not covering that? You have Quivering Palm and One-Milimeter Punch or Explosive Death Drop all doing the over-the-top-anime-inspired martial combat stuff already.
A lot of Monk "anime" stuff comes in way earlier. Hadouken...I mean, ki blast? Level 6. Flying kick? Level 4. Water Step? Level 6. Blazing Streak? Level 10.
The design concept of PF2 is that "Whoah" stuff comes in at later levels. If you're looking for a game that lets you do that earlier, it's not 1PP Pathfinder. All martial classes get their "holy crap" stuff later in their career.
I don’t know how much room “stronger Monk” has for design space.
A lot of their power budget is in their mobility and action efficiency right? Might be room for an alternate class path that trades speed and Flurry of Blows for highly impactful martial 2-actions or something.
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TBH, I get the desire for stuff like that, but I think the answer is less a new class and more that Paizo was pretty conservative with creating unique activities in the CRB and that hopefully we'll see more special actions for Monks (and all other martials) if they ever publish a bunch of class feats again.
I don’t know how much room “stronger Monk” has for design space.A lot of their power budget is in their mobility and action efficiency right? Might be room for an alternate class path that trades speed and Flurry of Blows for highly impactful martial 2-actions or something.
Hmmm... and if you made many of the powers oddly shaped and/or otherwise positioning dependent, you could get some interesting gameplay where your regular turn is to set off one of your powers after positioning to best effect.
I'm pretty sure you'd need some sort of flavor underneath that wasn't just "monk, but awesome", though, in order to fit it into the world properly.
TBH, I get the desire for stuff like that, but I think the answer is less a new class and more that Paizo was pretty conservative with creating unique activities in the CRB and that hopefully we'll see more special actions for Monks (and all other martials) if they ever publish a bunch of class feats again.
Not if we're trying to eat the FoB part of the power budget. Like, you could almost get there by making it a two-action flourish, but....
I've brought up an idea a long time ago (it's not super well thought out) for a class that's more of a caster monk. It would be to monk what a cleric is to champion; the class would ditch the martial aspects of the class, gain spellcasting, and do things like fire blasts of ki as their regular attacks. It might be a bit more difficult with psychic coming out now, however, which takes up some of that design space (at least how I envision it)
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Really, you'd need it to be a new class. The Monk action-efficiency thing is baked all through it with feats like winding flow and such. Also, this idea is one that very much wants to be able to spend its feats making its two-action unleash powers that much more awesome.
Possibly... possibly make it something like the swashbuckler has with panache? You have some on/off resource that you start in the "off" position. Generally, you're going to have to build up and unleash on two separate turns. Like, you start with a "build up" action that's a one-action flourish that just gives you a charge, and an "unleash" action that's a two-action flourish that consumes that charge. Various feats or class features could let you do something useful when you build up, but part of the point is that you can't unleash more than every other turn regardless.
With that kind of action/usage economy, you could fit some pretty impressive booms into that unleash and still not be too OP.
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I admit I'm double-posting, but also it's been 7 days.
Personally, I'm really excited about the Thaumaturge - not for the class itself (interesting enough, looks cool, no complaints, but I don't know if I'd ever get around to playing one) but for the implement system. I'd love to see another class or two that would expand on that in general - like, basically look at the Thaumaturge and say "Ah! It's my melee hybrid." It wouldn't necessarily be for the specific implements themselves, but for the idea of this big chunky thing that you'd start at level 1 with one or two of and end at level 20 with maybe 3 to 5 of, and have chances to upgrade one by one to higher power tiers along the way. Want some healing ability? There's an implement for that. Want some ranged damage? There's an implement for that. Mix and match the ones that you like and then pour in class feats and other limited resources to make specific ones better. Basically, I've wanted some sort of non-spell-slot magic-primary character out of PF2 since I started looking at PF2 at all, and I honestly think that a class that spent basically all of its build budget on implements and making those implements awesome would be great for that.
Just in general there's a lot of interesting ways to work with the system, too. Like Medium - I think that medium could be really cool as a wave caster with spirits-as-implements for its other half. I've already talked about my Host idea with symbiotes-as-implements. I'd suggest the Intercessor try some sort of blessings-as-implements schtick, but that gets too close to the Thaumaturge, unfortunately. It'd be cool, but there isn't space for it. I feel like it would fit with witches really well on a thematic level, but we already have the witch. I just feel like it's rich with possibilities in general.
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I know Kineticist & Inquisitor are both probably at the top of the list (and I'd like them too), the one I really want is SHIFTER
I was pretty disappointed how the Shifter turned out (mechanically, not conceptually) in 1e, but I'm confident they were just ahead of their time and really needed a ruleset like 2e to shine.
Please, give me a true Shifter class that specializes in morphing parts of their body to fit the situation. I'd love to see maybe a little less nature theme (less lyconthrope light) and more adaptability from the class. No magic, no using versions of form spells, but ability based.
One direction could be to take the chassis of the Thaumaturge's implements and have class choices that focus special attention to certain body parts. For example, you could be particularly adept at shifting your legs to meet the needs and give options such as increased land speed, incredible leaping abilities, unarmed attacks of various kinds (hooves, claws, talons, etc.), climbing bonuses, swim bonuses (gives fins), etc.
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Having had the chance to read Dark Archive, personally, I would like to see a couple new martial classes, maybe a Warlord-like class that is to the Marshal what the Monk is to the Martial Artist...
Could be nice to touch upon the mundane after SoM, BotD and DA (I know G&G was not magic, but it was technological, so, not mundane, in a sense) with feats for martial classes, mass combat rules and the like.
I've also been looking at the APG previews for the Pathfinder Savage Worlds game and a few extra feats and orders for the Cavalier archetype wouldn't be bad to include with this product as well.
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I know Kineticist & Inquisitor are both probably at the top of the list (and I'd like them too), the one I really want is SHIFTER
I was pretty disappointed how the Shifter turned out (mechanically, not conceptually) in 1e, but I'm confident they were just ahead of their time and really needed a ruleset like 2e to shine.
Please, give me a true Shifter class that specializes in morphing parts of their body to fit the situation. I'd love to see maybe a little less nature theme (less lyconthrope light) and more adaptability from the class. No magic, no using versions of form spells, but ability based.
One direction could be to take the chassis of the Thaumaturge's implements and have class choices that focus special attention to certain body parts. For example, you could be particularly adept at shifting your legs to meet the needs and give options such as increased land speed, incredible leaping abilities, unarmed attacks of various kinds (hooves, claws, talons, etc.), climbing bonuses, swim bonuses (gives fins), etc.
While I sort of doubt it would happen, I would love something that's a mix of adaptive shifter from 1e and evolutionist. Being able to pick and choose to morph parts of ones body on a whim to suit combat would be so cool.
Eventually when the stars align I plan to have a character in 2e that has earthy, blasty powers like kineticist and play that character for a campaign. At the end of the campaign the character gets petrified and ends up on either akiton or castrovel, and then in the starfinder age a scientist stumbles upon the statue, realizes it's not just a simple statue, and experiment on the character and they become an evolutionist.
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So, a long time ago, I listed what I was looking for in a slotless caster, potentially with 1 class focusing on each:
1. Blasting
2. Terrain Control
3. Restoration and Buffs
4. Debuffs
When I made that post, I 100% assumed blasting would be covered by the kineticist when we got it. So it is with some mild surprise to realize that of the 4, the only one Kineticists can't specialize in is blasting, as all but like 3 impulses are multitarget, and most of their damage effects have riders that make them one of the other 3 options, and often stronger at those.
So, since its possible Kineticists won't be the blaster of many of our fantasies, I think another class might fill the gap.
Utilizing Impulses (but NOT overflow), this class trades the kineticist's focus on AoE options for options that are basically "Screw YOU in particular." Blasting, curses, poisons, debuffs galore, almost all single target and so budgeted accordingly. Probably on a caster chassis so as to better utilize the 4 degrees of success.
I want to try and use: my idea about Fortune/Misfortune effects, a blaster/debuff/buff focus, and access to Void, Aethereal, and Positive energy plane. I have a half-baked idea to make it Dream focused, with your dream alignment being towards Nightmares, Prophecy, and Fantasy.
Michael Sayre has talked about wanting to rework the Shaman from the ground up, pulling more from real-world religious practices than any 1e mechanic, and that's probably the new class I want to see most. If it could cannibalize some of what the 1e Medium had going on, and potentially offer some sort of option for interfacing with the dead, even better.
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Michael Sayre has talked about wanting to rework the Shaman from the ground up, pulling more from real-world religious practices than any 1e mechanic, and that's probably the new class I want to see most. If it could cannibalize some of what the 1e Medium had going on, and potentially offer some sort of option for interfacing with the dead, even better.More divine classes. Could absolutely see a divine focused book with shaman + inquisitor.
That’s the dream! If Paizo announced that and an Arcadia book for the LO line, they’d be most of the way to shutting me up for good :p
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That’s the dream! If Paizo announced that and an Arcadia book for the LO line, they’d be most of the way to shutting me up for good :p
But we like you. We don't want to see you silenced.
I have several dozen hours of Blood on the Clocktower videos behind me, so right now I have the strong need for a class that is based mostly on information, guessing and the Deception skill for its core mechanics. But since the investigator thematically leans very strongly into some of that, I doubt that will happen. That said, though, with Diverse Lore thaumaturge is already way more useful than an investigator in the combat info department so it is not totally out of the question.
No idea how you would pull a coherent and effective class out of that, though.
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Cold magic!
I've had a player who's had a real itch to play an ice mage and an aversion to homebrew for a while. First he heard about elemental sorcerers getting to element swap their spells and wanted to play one of those, but no, fire or bludgeoning only. Elementalists getting a unique spell list perked his interested, but Cold isn't a trait they get to inherit. Osciliating Wave is kind of cool, but he plays BLM when we do Savages he doesn't want to play it again in tabletop and would rather focus on ice.
Kineticist was his ultimate pipe dream... but there's no ice blast, only a couple of cold options mixed in with bludgeoning water.
... It sounds kind of goofy, but what started as kind of a silly joke is starting to genuinely frustrate him because of how frequently Paizo is choosing to skirt around themed elemental casters that aren't Fire-based.
I have several dozen hours of Blood on the Clocktower videos behind me, so right now I have the strong need for a class that is based mostly on information, guessing and the Deception skill for its core mechanics. But since the investigator thematically leans very strongly into some of that, I doubt that will happen. That said, though, with Diverse Lore thaumaturge is already way more useful than an investigator in the combat info department so it is not totally out of the question.
No idea how you would pull a coherent and effective class out of that, though.
Genuinely curious, what do you feel about this concept can't be emulated well in the current system? I feel like if a player came to me with this idea I'd point them toward the investigator, rogue, or thaumaturge... or maybe bard/sorcerer if they wanted to be more magical and I'm curious what falls short with those ideas.
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Cold magic!
I've had a player who's had a real itch to play an ice mage and an aversion to homebrew for a while. First he heard about elemental sorcerers getting to element swap their spells and wanted to play one of those, but no, fire or bludgeoning only. Elementalists getting a unique spell list perked his interested, but Cold isn't a trait they get to inherit. Osciliating Wave is kind of cool, but he plays BLM when we do Savages he doesn't want to play it again in tabletop and would rather focus on ice.
Kineticist was his ultimate pipe dream... but there's no ice blast, only a couple of cold options mixed in with bludgeoning water.
... It sounds kind of goofy, but what started as kind of a silly joke is starting to genuinely frustrate him because of how frequently Paizo is choosing to skirt around themed elemental casters that aren't Fire-based.
Yes! As I've said before it's kind of frustrating that the only options to focus on cold and ice are generally attached to very specific concepts, like the Winter Witches of Irrisen and Baba Yaga, or with white and silver dragons for sorcerers (and kobolds), and maybe some specific types of sylphs and undines. For the divine casters you're pretty much limited to chaotic forces like Algenweis, Pulura and Uvuko, evil ones like Hshurha and Kostchtchie or nature deities for whom it's largely an afterthought like Gozreh and Yamatsumi.
Genuinely curious, what do you feel about this concept can't be emulated well in the current system? I feel like if a player came to me with this idea I'd point them toward the investigator, rogue, or thaumaturge... or maybe bard/sorcerer if they wanted to be more magical and I'm curious what falls short with those ideas.I have several dozen hours of Blood on the Clocktower videos behind me, so right now I have the strong need for a class that is based mostly on information, guessing and the Deception skill for its core mechanics. But since the investigator thematically leans very strongly into some of that, I doubt that will happen. That said, though, with Diverse Lore thaumaturge is already way more useful than an investigator in the combat info department so it is not totally out of the question.
No idea how you would pull a coherent and effective class out of that, though.
With that loose a concept it is hard to formulate a good answer, but the best I have is that while each of those fulfil a good part of that idea, none get all of it. They'll do, but I want more and especially more active interaction with these systems, if that makes sense.
Scoundrel rogue has the smoke and mirrors aspect down, but nothing else. Great active interaction with the Deception skill, though.
Mastermind gets regularly screwed by the erratic and very one-off Recall Knowledge system and isn't even particularly good at it. So, limited information warfare and nothing else, really. He gets to interact with Recall Knowledge beyond getting the info, though, which is very important for what I want.
Investigator, who has the strongest theme tie-in, is a bit better at Recall Knowledge and general information business, but cannot really leverage that beyond figuring out the plot. Again, unmodified Recall Knowledge has serious reliability issues and he has very little that really does anything with Recall beyond getting the raw info. Additionally, the investigator is generally extremely GM-dependent (how wide can you frame your lead and therefore how often can you get DaS for free) and lacks good combat capability even in the best-case scenario. Basically nothing in the deception department, as well.
The thaumaturge has the weakest theme match, but is by far the strongest practical information gatherer. As far as in-combat information goes, he is easily the strongest class and the only one who can reliably leverage that for a strong advantage beyond getting the raw info. Exactly the type of interactivity I want. Very little deception - literal smoke an mirrors with the mirror implement and that's kinda it - and no particular benefits from guessing, though.
Occult casters like the bard are ok, but only interact with the Deception aspect in a limited capacity - only via spells - and not particularly with anything else.
Covering all those areas to the degree I want is probably too much for a single class to have going on. If you had to juggle the active use of the Deception skill, a thaumaturge-esk lore ability that you can use to find stuff out and then somehow have guessing as an integral part of your playstyle, that sounds like it would be the definition of "spreading yourself thin". So my idea would probably be terrible, but hey, the urge is there ^^
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Sidenote, I wouldn't mind if instead of some sort of "warlord" or "battlemaster" style marshal class, they gave those sort of "tactical command support" abilities back to fighter.
(fighter historically started out as that kind of class, hence why they used to get castles for free as they leveled up :'D Eventually they kinda evolved into "super beatstick", but would be fun to give them feat options to be that kind of fight expert once again)
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I’m not sure how you’d do that without revising the fighter class. If its just a matter of feats, Marshall is right there, along with free archetype.
The appeal of a dedicated class is getting 4–8 Marshall abilities baked into the class chassis, letting you do new stuff with your aura.
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Honestly wouldn't mind if all classes got retroactively added some "sub class" options. I'm still saying I want to see alternate monk with legendary unarmed instead even at expense of master only unarmored profiency because currently you can make fighter with monk multiclass that is technically better at unarmed fighting than monk is xD
But yeah, one way to do it is adding fighter feats that are also marshall feats(same way how many of archetypes are mix of "New original feats and theme fitting feats from one class"), but fighter marshall is easiest way to replicate that yeah. Either way, lot of fighter feats are variant of different ways of hitting people, so giving them some extra support options even without giving them alternate chassis could still be fitting.
I personally always wanted to play a nonmagical pure support character. A mentally strong, physically weak "martial" without any weapon proficiencies who gets zero features related to making strikes and is primarily there to support and assist the blaster caster in dealing damage.
How are they helping the blaster caster with damage without any weapons or spells, exactly?
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I personally always wanted to play a nonmagical pure support character. A mentally strong, physically weak "martial" without any weapon proficiencies who gets zero features related to making strikes and is primarily there to support and assist the blaster caster in dealing damage.How are they helping the blaster caster with damage without any weapons or spells, exactly?
Being EXTREMELY good at aid another checks is one possibility. I’ve often thought that teamwork feats could be a series of feats that allows you to use a single action to Aid Another in specific ways after specific actions on your part, such as firing an arrow at a creature and then using a 1 action Aid Another to give an ally a bonus to their next ranged attack.
But to be honest, Shredder’s idea sounds more like “Familar, the class”. Which isn’t an unreasonable idea, just difficult to make fun for the familiar in question.