What New Classes do you want to see in PF2?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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I don’t know that I want a second musical class, but a nonmagical support is something I would welcome, something like 4e’s Warlord or Starfinder’s Envoy. I’ve seen the name Herald tossed out for such a thing in PF2 before, and I quite like that.


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I certainly wouldn't object to such a thing, but I don't think you can afford to make them caster support to the exclusion of all else. In particular, you can assume that in (almost) any party there are going to be at least one or two martials because you need to have someone in the front playing meat shield. You can't necessarily assume that about casters, and the idea of a class that basically blanks itself if it shows up in the wrong party (or if the one wizard goes down) seems like a really bad idea.

Moreover, I think that having an exclusively support class is a mistake. We don't have one of those currently. Even the Cloistered Cleric can function on their own, though not nearly as well.

So... a dedicated support martial who's got enough martial skill to toss out cantrip-tier damage (or maybe even a little lower) with a reasonably heavy focus on save-debuffing? I could see it. Possibly have the "heavy focus on save-debuffing" be one of the class paths, and the others focus on other aspects of the support player experience.


Heaving to make weapon strikes would really ruin this class concept for me, being a useful party member just through your great wisdom, charisma and intelligence without any direct combat abilities is the whole appeal to me. The class should be able to reliably support everyone, but being able to turn your partys caster from a decent to a great damage dealer would just be the coolest thing ever.


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I don't mean to say it can't be done, but it feels like the class would need some way to stand on its own, too. Unless like a Summoner and eidolon you have a minion you could support as well, there'd be no way to play the class on its own.

A class that is wholly reliant on making others more powerful is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how it would fit within the framework of the game as it exists currently.

Then again, I suppose a Bard theoretically could spend every single turn casting inspire courage and another buffing cantrip/shield while never contributing to combat directly themselves, so a mundane version of that isn't an impossibility. It wouldn't entirely be necessary to make weapon attacks though no doubt they would still gain the ability (not like a wizard makes much use of their weapon attacks past early game, either, for example).

But this isn't the "Why this class idea wouldn't work" thread, so I'll keep my reservations down. It's a neat idea, I just think it's missing a little meat to flesh it out into a full concept.


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Our current Bard has music and a nice theme of cantrips but mechanically it is a Bard crossed with an occult caster. Which is just wrong for many fantasy Bards. Yes they did it in D&D but that doesn't mean it was a good idea. Most of the Bards you hear about in stories are not major spell casters

I would like to see a Bard crossed with a Rogue, or a Bard crossed with a Fighter. As in a full martial with Bard focus cantrips and feats but no occult spells.

As it stand you can sort of do it by multiclassing into Bard, but its not the same and is mechanically clunky. The character sees themself as a Bard not a caster.

In a similar vein please flesh the Marshal archetype out into a full class.


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I've been advocating for a martial, bounded Bard since the Magus playtest came out. It should be easy to implement as a class archetype, I believe just changing proficiencies, class ability boost and casting style would be enough.


_shredder_ wrote:

Heaving to make weapon strikes would really ruin this class concept for me, being a useful party member just through your great wisdom, charisma and intelligence without any direct combat abilities is the whole appeal to me. The class should be able to reliably support everyone, but being able to turn your partys caster from a decent to a great damage dealer would just be the coolest thing ever.

What could be done instead, if have strikes be a party of it, but instead of damage they focus on maneuvers and other thing like that. Instead of aiming for the torso to do more damage, they aim for the kneecap to inflict flat-footed, or feinting on behalf of their party members. Maybe hey smacky smack, find a loose joint in the armor/scales/whatever and you get the Infinite Eye precision damage buff.

You can make great sage advice a feature, but part of that is "watch and replicate", like the coat rack in the Karate Kid reboot


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_shredder_ wrote:

Heaving to make weapon strikes would really ruin this class concept for me, being a useful party member just through your great wisdom, charisma and intelligence without any direct combat abilities is the whole appeal to me. The class should be able to reliably support everyone, but being able to turn your partys caster from a decent to a great damage dealer would just be the coolest thing ever.

It's not that they have to make weapon attacks. It's entirely reasonable to have a martial support class with builds that would prefer to never pull a weapon... but they have to be able to. Everyone has to be able to stand on their own at least to some degree.

It doesn't even have to be a weapon. That's jsut hte simplest way to handle things for a martial. There's any number of ways to flavor it, and any number of mechanics you could hang off of it, but at the end of the day, if you put this character in a room with only what they have on their own character sheet, they have to be able to fight a monster by themselves to some degree. They don't have to be great at it, but they have to be able to do it.

"If I have no friends, then I am completely useless in a fight" simply isn't going to fly as part of a class concept unless your class inherently comes with some friends baked in.

Now, if you wanted to do something like start with a summoner, and cash in all of the spellcasting for pure partial support abilities? That's much more workable.


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I don’t understand the “no weapons” insistence. The closest play experience to what I’m seeing floated was 4e’s Warlord, who had lots of abilities flavored as shouting commands and tactics to their party… but they were also absolutely in the thick of things, in good armor and swinging a weapon around. Heck, much of their support keyed off of them making attacks that opened opportunities for allies to do things off their normal turns!

It was a blast, and I’d sooner see something like that in a game this tactical than trying to make a noncombatant class work.


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keftiu wrote:

I don’t understand the “no weapons” insistence. The closest play experience to what I’m seeing floated was 4e’s Warlord, who had lots of abilities flavored as shouting commands and tactics to their party… but they were also absolutely in the thick of things, in good armor and swinging a weapon around. Heck, much of their support keyed off of them making attacks that opened opportunities for allies to do things off their normal turns!

It was a blast, and I’d sooner see something like that in a game this tactical than trying to make a noncombatant class work.

My read: They've got a fantasy in their head of someone who's not magical, and not using a weapon - just helping. They don't want to be awesome. They want to help other people be awesome. Adding to the damage pressure themselves taints the fantasy, especially if it's something that they're expected to do regularly.

I think this is solvable, actually. In particular, if we lean into the debuff side of things, and allow, for example, a buffed form of Bon Mot that deals a bit of psychic damage on the side, and perhaps similar "significant debuff plus a bit of damage" effects in other ways, that could work, especially if each of them involved a degree of investment and was only once per turn.

Admittedly, at this point it starts wandering into the territory of [url-https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43n2y?Lets-get-stranger-ideas-for-new-classes#1]the other "new classes" thread[/url].

The problem with that, though, is mindless foes. Their fantasy is pure martial, after all. That basically means that it's the moviotns you make with your body and the words coming out of your mouth, and that's pretty much it. If you won't allow any sort of magical access at all, then there's no real justifiable way to damage mindless creatures other than crude physical assault. I think that in order to really make it workable, you'd have to accept something at least as magical as, say, a barbarian. If you're willing to go that far, and your'e willing to have them destroy enemies with the power of their hurtful, hurtful words, then it turns back into something that at least can be built.

Class Feature: Insult Anything. There is nothing in the whole of the world that is truly safe from the vicious edge of your sharpened tongue. You can target even mindless foes and terrain features with verbal and emotional attacks. Temporarily making an an iron grate self-conscious enough to penalize its will save may not necessarily achieve all that much, but you can do it. You likewise ignore any resistance or immunity to psychic damage that your targets may possess.

...and something about Withering Invective, which attacks against Fortitude, and deals negative energy damage.

Admittedly, at this point it starts wandering into the territory of the other New Classes thread.


I feel like anyone looking for this fantasy should take a peek at how Paizo has done it before, with Starfinder's Envoy class... they have plenty of barking orders and slinging insults, but it's ultimately still a class that starts with three weapon proficiencies and has a part to play in any fight. Within the fiction, any adventurer with nothing to defend themself with but words is going to be laughed out of the tavern - or fall to the first golem or zombie that crosses their path.

I'm sympathetic, I truly am! I ran an incredibly nonviolent campaign of Songs for the Dusk, and have a deeply troubled relationship with how core doing violence is in our games and entertainment. That doesn't stop PF2 from being a game played on a combat grid, and I think a pure talker just isn't going to last there.


For me the fantasy isn't really about being a talker or a pacifist, but about being a mentally strong, physically weak character who doesn't need magic to be useful.

Think of a frail old gnome who obsessively studied the art of combat but sucks at using weapons on her own. She tells the fighter how to land the biggest hit, reminds the magus to evade an arrow and shows the sorcerer where a ray of frost would hurt the most.

Think of an arrogant noble elf who never learned how to fight because he always just payed hirelings to do the dirty work. He orders the champion to raise her shield and then the cleric to heal him while leaving a snarky comment about the enemys lack of class.

Think of an adorable poppet who was made to assist a witch but later thrown away for a better familiar. They never developed any magical powers on their own but are still obsessed with their creators style of spellcasting and will gladly remind lesser experienced casters how to use magic the right way and the martials how to evade and resist spells

These are the types of characters I would like to be able to play with the class I suggested. None of them should wear armor or ever equip any weapons


I am pretty sure we won't ever see a class meant to be played in a passive way ( I too don't understand the no weapons part).

Given the fact every class can support other classes in several ways, how much they decide to support is up to them.

A new class may end up being more defensive/support oriented rather than offense oriented ( like the champion or the bard) but they'd also include a way to deal damage.


Huh. There's nothing inherent to the idea of "Martial character with both str and dex as dump stats" that's incompatible with the current system (other than, perhaps, keeping your AC up) but I'm not sure how I'd actually pull it off in a satisfying way.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Huh. There's nothing inherent to the idea of "Martial character with both str and dex as dump stats" that's incompatible with the current system (other than, perhaps, keeping your AC up) but I'm not sure how I'd actually pull it off in a satisfying way.

It is possible to do this with the Investigator as is.


AC is pretty important for a frontliner, so I'm pretty sure you're going to want medium armor and 4increases between Str and Dex to max out your AC, but that's not a huge ask since you get 11-12 at chargen. You can be fine with your 14 str and dex forever with scale mail (or 16 and 12 with a breastplate, or 12 and 16 with a chain shirt).

It's just that when a frontliner doesn't have medium armor proficiency, that dex becomes a huge priority.

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