What New Classes do you want to see in PF2?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Sanityfaerie wrote:
scary harpy wrote:
Shorten it to Warlock.
Those two are very, very different things. Please do not conflate them. Also, "Warlock" is in the bit of 3.x that *wasn't* under the OGL. Paizo has all sorts of good legal reasons to not want to open *that* can of worms.

The warlock is in the 5e SRD though, which is just as much open content as the 3.5e SRD Pathfinder 1 was based on. Not all the sub-classes are (they learned their lesson from Pathfinder), but the core class and the Fiend patron is.


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David knott 242 wrote:
A Wizard with Cleric archetype (or vice versa) can have access to 10th level spells in his primary class and 8th level spells in his secondary class. That is actually better than what a PF1 Mystic Theurge can get.

That's at level 19.


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Squiggit wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
A Wizard with Cleric archetype (or vice versa) can have access to 10th level spells in his primary class and 8th level spells in his secondary class. That is actually better than what a PF1 Mystic Theurge can get.
That's at level 19.

OK, let's compare the PF1 Mystic Theurge to a PF2 wizard sinking as many class feats as possible into cleric multi-classing. That means their 2nd, 4th, 8th, 12th, and 18th level class feats.

The PF1 theurge needs six levels to get going. They can take these in whatever order, but the end result is that at 7th level, you are a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Theurge 1 with 2nd level spells of each class, and at 8th level you go up to 3rd level in each class. This is when the theurge starts paying off its slow start.

The PF2 wizard gets cleric cantrips at 2nd level, and 1st level cleric spells at 4th (which is the same as if they had gone Wiz 3/Clr 1). At 6th level, Basic Spellcasting goes up to 2nd-level spells (and at this point you're also casting 3rd-level wizard spells), and at 8th level you get 3rd-level spells (same level you'd get them as a mystic theurge). You're not getting as many slots, but you're compensating for that by having better wizard spells. At 8th level, you're getting two cleric spell slots at each level other than your two highest.

Then the PF2 character starts falling behind a little in clericosity, because Expert cleric spellcasting is a 12th level feat. And finally you get Master casting at 18th, keeping pace with Expert.

This all gets you the following spell levels (assuming you go to 3rd level in one class, then 3rd level in the next, and then go theurge):

Spoiler:
Level PF1 W/C PF2 W/C
1 1/- 1/-
2 1/- 1/cantrip
3 2/- 2/cantrip
4 2/1 2/1
5 2/1 3/1
6 2/2 3/2
7 2/2 4/2
8 3/3 4/3 (Breadth comes online)
9 3/3 5/3
10 4/4 5/3
11 4/4 6/3
12 5/5 6/4
13 5/5 7/4
14 6/6 7/5
15 6/6 8/5
16 7/7 8/6 (final Mystic Theurge level)
17 7/7 9/6
18 8/7 9/7
19 8/7 10/7
20 9/7 10/8

So we see that (just using the top spell level available—I'll freely admit that the theurge gets LOTS more slots, but PF1 casters get more slots in general so that's not exactly a fair comparison) the PF2 character is equal or better up to level 9, while still being 1-2 spell levels ahead as a wizard. From level 10 to level 17, the PF2 character is one spell level behind in cleric casting, but keeps being 1-2 spell levels ahead as a wizard. Finally, the PF2 caster catches up on the cleric front at level 18 (because at that point the theurge PRC has run its course and now we catch up from the level 10-11 slowdown).

TL;DR: PF2 caster will consistently be 1-2 spell levels ahead in their main class. In their off class, they cast equal level spells up to level 9, is then one level behind until level 17, and catches up again at level 18.


Staffan Johansson wrote:

So we see that (just using the top spell level available—I'll freely admit that the theurge gets LOTS more slots, but PF1 casters get more slots in general so that's not exactly a fair comparison) the PF2 character is equal or better up to level 9, while still being 1-2 spell levels ahead as a wizard. From level 10 to level 17, the PF2 character is one spell level behind in cleric casting, but keeps being 1-2 spell levels ahead as a wizard. Finally, the PF2 caster catches up on the cleric front at level 18 (because at that point the theurge PRC has run its course and now we catch up from the level 10-11 slowdown).

TL;DR: PF2 caster will consistently be 1-2 spell levels ahead in their main class. In their off class, they cast equal level spells up to level 9, is then one level behind until level 17, and catches up again at level 18.

This ignores that PF2 spells have far less impact than PF1 spells had. So the PF1 Theurg is doubling their ways to end a battle in a spell or two. You could make a build that just picked all save or die spells in their arcane slots and all day long buffing spells with the divine slots. This is way more effective than a PF2 character that needs to spend combat rounds buffing and where arcane spells lack the ability to end a fight against anything worth using spell slots against.


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Verdyn wrote:
This ignores that PF2 spells have far less impact than PF1 spells had. So the PF1 Theurg is doubling their ways to end a battle in a spell or two. You could make a build that just picked all save or die spells in their arcane slots and all day long buffing spells with the divine slots. This is way more effective than a PF2 character that needs to spend combat rounds buffing and where arcane spells lack the ability to end a fight against anything worth using spell slots against.

That's not a Theurge thing though, that's a general game thing. As to whether it's a good or a bad thing is a discussion for another thread, and I believe we already had a few dosen of those.


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Reminder: Samurai and Ninja are not truly new, as they are existed in PF1.

But Lac wants return of Samurai and Ninja also, in Japan-esque themed book.


AnimatedPaper wrote:

Warlock was also already a PF1 archetype with a very different focus. That would not be a terrible name for the weapon summoning class/archetype many have wanted to see to keep true to the pathfinder version.

Even better if the item was intelligent.

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Warlock was also already a PF1 archetype with a very different focus. That would not be a terrible name for the weapon summoning class/archetype many have wanted to see to keep true to the pathfinder version.

Even better if the item was intelligent.

Okay...how about Warloghe?

I think Pathfinder should have it's own version of the warlock...nothing like D&D's warlock.


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Bringing this over from a different thread.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
Anyone where a significant part of their overall power is in the form of truly magical abilities that are strongly themed to the point of having significant limits on breadth. That's a *large* design space. It covers everything from "all I can do is mind-affecting magic" to "all I can do is wield fire" to "all I can do is muck about with necromancy" and so forth. Yeah, I hear that the kineticist is going to cover some of that space, but at least for the moment, there are four traditions of magic to draw on. Every magic-primary character out there gets one of those traditions, and gets access to pretty much every spell of that tradition. We don't have the mystic theurge "I get to draw from more than one" and we don't have any way to limit a character to only a subset other than just choosing to deny ourselves certain options.

I'm generally in favor of the consolidation of spell lists, but the fact that you no longer have themed casters is kind of a big deal.

Wizards have the potential to step into this gap with their school mechanic, but at the moment the examples aren't impressive.

I would definitely like a class, or even a class archetype, that doubles and triples down on the "school" idea by cherry picking spells with the same trait from every list. Call it a Theorist.

Mind, I would have preferred 5 essences to make 5 lists, but that's out of the barn.


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I would really like to see a warlord/enabler (I no the battle bard gets a bit of that but I would like some more).

A class with some modes, the solarian being the obvious but something like the 13th age monk who could move between opening move, flow moves and finishing moves in that order would be cool.


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scary harpy wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:

Warlock was also already a PF1 archetype with a very different focus. That would not be a terrible name for the weapon summoning class/archetype many have wanted to see to keep true to the pathfinder version.

Even better if the item was intelligent.

Okay...how about Warloghe?

I think Pathfinder should have it's own version of the warlock...nothing like D&D's warlock.

Yes, I remember.

scary harpy wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
scary harpy wrote:

I'm hoping for a Warlock class.

Not a copy of the D&D Warlock; I want Pathfinder to have a new class name Warlock.

I really don't want the D&D Warlock and the Pathfinder Warlock to be similar in any way.

I just want to play a warlock in Pathfinder.

A little curious what you mean by this. What kind of inspiration or mechanics would you center the class on?
I have neither inspiration nor mechanics. I'll leave that to people-who-know-what-they-are-doing.

If all you need is the name, then renaming basically any of the classes will serve you. For something more official, since they've already used that name, they're not likely to follow it up with something that is totally different. Possible; they reused early archetype names for full classes built along different lines before, but I don't think it is likely.

The PF1 warlock had some superficial similarities to the 3.5 warlock, with the 4e and 5e Binder-Warlock flavor taken up by the Medium, Shaman, and Summoner classes. And of course both aspects (at-will casting and binding) used by the Witch class, which makes sense as the Witch seems to be a direct response to the Warlock, remade to better fit with Paizo's design sensibilities at the time (specifically, they seemed to dislike fully at-will casting, always wanting to place a daily limit of some kind).

There's other stuff to be mined though. An Ur-Priest effectively broke with their deity, right? Something that had a broken pact as their start point could lead to a class revolving around blended Theurge-esque casting. It could be called a Warlock, but I'm not sure if it will be.


siegfriedliner wrote:

I would really like to see a warlord/enabler (I no the battle bard gets a bit of that but I would like some more).

A class with some modes, the solarian being the obvious but something like the 13th age monk who could move between opening move, flow moves and finishing moves in that order would be cool.

The Marshal archetype (https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=66) looks like it was designed to fill the Warlord gap. Slap that on a bard, and you'll have a fair bit of juice for buffing up your allies.

...or if you (like me) just don't want to play a class that runs on spell slots, then try ranger. Comboing the Marshall feats with things like Monster Hunter, Warden's Boon, and the associated follow-on feats should give you *plenty* of the good old Warlord feel. Of course, it'll need some party optimization to really shine, but that's to be expected of a warlord build, really.


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Staffan Johansson wrote:
This all gets you the following spell levels (assuming you go to 3rd level in one class, then 3rd level in the next, and then go theurge:

One point I think you forgot is that there are only 10 levels in the Mystic Theurge class. Once you get to Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10, the remaining levels must be either Cleric or Wizard. This is where the PF2 caster starts catching up again.


Its theoretically possible to get more levels via the same mechanism that allows 21 level. By using something like Evangelist (Mystic Theurge).


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*cracks knuckles*

Alrighty, A mystic theurge. Possibly balanced even.

You gain 1 divine, 1 arcane slot each time you gain access to a new spell level. Starting at 3rd level, you also gain a Theurge slot, allowing you to cast either an arcane or divine spell in that slot (sort of how halcyon spells work). Each time you gain access to a new spell level, you gain a Theurge slot at the your second highest spell level, so 1st level at 3rd, 2nd at 5th, 3rd at 7th, and so on.

Your proficiencies for both traditions scale at the same rate. Class feats center on a "Broken" and "Binding" Oaths; you get one of each for free at 1st level, but can pick up more as you level.

This could be expanded to cover more than just Arcane and Divine; any combination should work. I would in fact like the possibility of being able to switch up traditions along the way; your initial binding Oath can be broken, and a new oath sworn (class feat retrained, basically).

To separate this out from the Witch, the creature type of your oath should be specified, and focus cantrips should not be on the table. Focus spells like crazy, sure, but not cantrips.

I do not have the energy to write this out fully, but that would be my initial pitch.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
siegfriedliner wrote:

I would really like to see a warlord/enabler (I no the battle bard gets a bit of that but I would like some more).

A class with some modes, the solarian being the obvious but something like the 13th age monk who could move between opening move, flow moves and finishing moves in that order would be cool.

The Marshal archetype (https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=66) looks like it was designed to fill the Warlord gap. Slap that on a bard, and you'll have a fair bit of juice for buffing up your allies.

...or if you (like me) just don't want to play a class that runs on spell slots, then try ranger. Comboing the Marshall feats with things like Monster Hunter, Warden's Boon, and the associated follow-on feats should give you *plenty* of the good old Warlord feel. Of course, it'll need some party optimization to really shine, but that's to be expected of a warlord build, really.

Sure, but there's 14 feats to the Marshall Archetype. It would be nice to get those into a class that gets 7 of them for free via class features (note, 7 is the average number of class features for a martial), so you can expand the concept further.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Your proficiencies for both traditions scale at the same rate. Class feats center on a "Broken" and "Binding" Oaths; you get one of each for free at 1st level, but can pick up more as you level.

Okay. This sounds really interesting... so, basically, you'd have Feat A (the "binding" oath) which gave you some power but restricted your behavior in some way, and Feat B (the "broken" oath) that required Feat A, but then both cancelled it and in some meaningful way reversed its effects? Or would it be that the oaths were all available at 1st level, but that different feats would respond in different ways depending on which oaths you had binding or broken?

It seems a bit strange to me that you'd be required to have a broken oath from the beginning - suggests that it's something like the Oracle, who gains at least part of their power specifically from the dissonance generated by twisting underlying systems of magic. Also, what happens if you've broken all of the available oaths?

I mean, this is good stuff. Don't get me wrong. It's just that there are some really strange implications along the edges.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:

*cracks knuckles*

Alrighty, A mystic theurge. Possibly balanced even.

You gain 1 divine, 1 arcane slot each time you gain access to a new spell level. Starting at 3rd level, you also gain a Theurge slot, allowing you to cast either an arcane or divine spell in that slot (sort of how halcyon spells work). Each time you gain access to a new spell level, you gain a Theurge slot at the your second highest spell level, so 1st level at 3rd, 2nd at 5th, 3rd at 7th, and so on.

Your proficiencies for both traditions scale at the same rate. Class feats center on a "Broken" and "Binding" Oaths; you get one of each for free at 1st level, but can pick up more as you level.

This could be expanded to cover more than just Arcane and Divine; any combination should work. I would in fact like the possibility of being able to switch up traditions along the way; your initial binding Oath can be broken, and a new oath sworn (class feat retrained, basically).

To separate this out from the Witch, the creature type of your oath should be specified, and focus cantrips should not be on the table. Focus spells like crazy, sure, but not cantrips.

I do not have the energy to write this out fully, but that would be my initial pitch.

I remember bringing up the possibility of a caster with access to multiple lists but only being able to prep each list in certain slots in the witch playtest, with the idea that every witch would get the occult list but would also gain access to a second list. I could definitely see this working for a mystic theurge class/class archetype.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:

It seems a bit strange to me that you'd be required to have a broken oath from the beginning - suggests that it's something like the Oracle, who gains at least part of their power specifically from the dissonance generated by twisting underlying systems of magic. Also, what happens if you've broken all of the available oaths?

I mean, this is good stuff. Don't get me wrong. It's just that there are some really strange implications along the edges.

Correct, yes.

You can always just swear an oath to someone new. Even if you ticked off that Genie, you can swear to a dragon and maintain your access to the Arcane list.

For a fuller explanation, I got this idea from Scary Harpy asking for a Warlock-Mystic Theurge upthread. Since one of the definitions of warlock means "oath breaker", going the Ur-Priest route seemed interesting.


Arachnofiend wrote:
I do really think making the Shifter a budget Druid was a mistake. So many polymorph-focused concepts that just weren't possible for the Polymorph Class to do with those restrictions.

Yeah. Actually you can probably roll in the weapon shifting concepts here too? Like some instances are warping their body, others warp their gear.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:


This could be expanded to cover more than just Arcane and Divine; any combination should work. I would in fact like the possibility of being able to switch up traditions along the way; your initial binding Oath can be broken, and a new oath sworn (class feat retrained, basically).

Yes. Yes, please.


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Dubious Scholar wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
I do really think making the Shifter a budget Druid was a mistake. So many polymorph-focused concepts that just weren't possible for the Polymorph Class to do with those restrictions.
Yeah. Actually you can probably roll in the weapon shifting concepts here too? Like some instances are warping their body, others warp their gear.

I think the inventor is intended to cover that, but I'd dig a magical-ized version.


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I'd really dig a "warp your own body" class that doesn't turn into animals/monsters, etc. but instead warps their own body for beneficial effects- your arms grow longer, your skin hardens, you become unusually flexible, etc.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:

It seems a bit strange to me that you'd be required to have a broken oath from the beginning - suggests that it's something like the Oracle, who gains at least part of their power specifically from the dissonance generated by twisting underlying systems of magic. Also, what happens if you've broken all of the available oaths?

I mean, this is good stuff. Don't get me wrong. It's just that there are some really strange implications along the edges.

Correct, yes.

You can always just swear an oath to someone new. Even if you ticked off that Genie, you can swear to a dragon and maintain your access to the Arcane list.

For a fuller explanation, I got this idea from Scary Harpy asking for a Warlock-Mystic Theurge upthread. Since one of the definitions of warlock means "oath breaker", going the Ur-Priest route seemed interesting.

Hmm...

So, if the whole oath thing is all about finding and then betraying patrons, this effectively becomes a tie-in to the Witch (the people who are actually loyally serving those patrons, and thus creating the market in which patrons might be willing to support people). Or something? Basically, this class is *constantly* making deals in bad faith with more powerful beings and then betraying them. The only way to make that work is to somehow be able to lie about it convincingly. So... charisma as a casting stat, I guess. I don't know hat I'd want that to be the basis of the core Mystic Theurge, though. It seems more like the sort of thing you might see with a class with heavy spellthief influences.

Still, the question remains... how are you going to keep coming up with powerful patrons who are also deeply gullible? What are they getting out of the deal that would make it worthwhile for them?


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*shrug* whatever works for you and your DM I suppose. I would imagine the class feats could be used to flesh this out. Something like "fulfilled oath" that closes out a previous agreement and gives you a small bonus. The Anathema mechanic seems appropriate as well.

I don't have the entire class figured out, and like I said don't really have the energy to truly pursue it right now.

If this particular idea doesn't work for you, what idea do you have?


I'm wondering what a psychic class class would look like with the occult and arcane list having so many psychic spells already


WWHsmackdown wrote:
I'm wondering what a psychic class class would look like with the occult and arcane list having so many psychic spells already

I could see "Psychic" being a class archetype you can apply to any class that gets spells. So you replace "Somatic/Material" components with "Thought/Emotion" components and have things like Phrenic Amps available as archetype feats.


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Related:

James Jacobs wrote:
The whole point of us including an occultism wing of magic was to build in room for the occult classes from 1st edition, such as the psychic, even though we knew we weren't going to be putting them in the Core rules. We might tinker and change how some of those classes work if/when we update to 2nd edition, but turning them into a point-based system like psionics isn't something that's really on the table.

Source


AnimatedPaper wrote:

Related:

James Jacobs wrote:
The whole point of us including an occultism wing of magic was to build in room for the occult classes from 1st edition, such as the psychic, even though we knew we weren't going to be putting them in the Core rules. We might tinker and change how some of those classes work if/when we update to 2nd edition, but turning them into a point-based system like psionics isn't something that's really on the table.
Source

Ooooooooo neat!


There is definitely a symmetry argument for doing a prepared and a spontaneous caster from each of the four traditions, as well as a prepared (witch) and spontaneous (sorcerer) "pick-a-list" class.

So we need a prepared occult caster to complement the bard, a spontaneous primal caster to complement the druid, and a spontaneous arcane caster to complement the wizard. Hypothetically those could be the Psychic, Shaman, and Arcanist.


AnimatedPaper wrote:

*shrug* whatever works for you and your DM I suppose. I would imagine the class feats could be used to flesh this out. Something like "fulfilled oath" that closes out a previous agreement and gives you a small bonus. The Anathema mechanic seems appropriate as well.

I don't have the entire class figured out, and like I said don't really have the energy to truly pursue it right now.

If this particular idea doesn't work for you, what idea do you have?

Please allow me to be clear. I wasn't trying to cut on or undermine the idea at all. I think there's some real meat to it, and it could be awesome. I also think that there are some challenges. I think that coming up with the right sort of answers to the challenges could make it even more awesome. I was attempting to help this process by identifying the challenges.

So... I think there's some really juicy design space for a class that's all about, effectively, robbing and defrauding the gods (or equivalent beings). It's got a bit of Sha'ir, a bit of Ur-Priest, a bit of spellthief. It could have some interesting downtime tasks around building up credibility with various entities, and then exploit those in the moment for... basically a payoff that would be balanced against equivalent gold value in potions/scrolls/alchemical devices, except more flexible and perhaps drawn from a different set of stuff. You'd have the powers that you could get for maintaining a pact (useful, but not super-powerful, and generally not as combat-oriented), the powers you could get at the moment of betrayal (this is where your big guns are) and the powers you could draw after the betrayal, when you were no longer being subtle (brutal, effective, but with increasing costs until you abandon the link). Then you've got some mechanic about how or why those entities keep forgetting about you and letting you do it again (the thing that lets you refresh).

I wouldn't make that the mystic theurge, though. The mystic theurge is a diplomat, rather than a thief. Their schtick is that they're effectively a diplomatic link between the powers... and the powers are fickle. So you get your baseline abilities on both sides (a set of spells known and spell slots for each, somewhat limited, split appropriately) but you also get randomly generated tasks for each side when you wake up in the morning, and doing those things can gain you favor - which can give you extra spell slots, boost your save DC on the appropriate kind of spell a bit, and/or hand out other little patron-specific bonuses. Basically, this is a guy who gets a fair chunk of his power by pandering to his bosses, but they're a bit erratic, and sometimes at odds. There are good days, and there are bad days. It also means that this is a character who grows stronger over the course of the day.

Now neither of those is the new class that I personally want to see, because they're both a bit too wrapped around the idea of vancian casting for me, but I think they'd be interesting classes to play.


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Deleted and rewording to be less harsh.

I encourage you to pursue those ideas if they are of interest to you. But they aren't to me, and I don't see those classes, or the original idea I posted, the same way you describe.

As I said, I'm not terribly interested in developing this, so how awesome it can be or not is of little value to me. I doubt I'll homebrew this, and if I do I certainly won't be posting it now. I regret posting anything at all, now.


David knott 242 wrote:
One point I think you forgot is that there are only 10 levels in the Mystic Theurge class. Once you get to Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10, the remaining levels must be either Cleric or Wizard. This is where the PF2 caster starts catching up again.

That's only true if you didn't plan for how to fill those last 4 levels. You could, for example, use the practiced spellcaster feat to do something like going wizard (or cleric) only for those last levels using the feat to fill in the caster level gap for the other class. This sort of thing, even in a simple wizard 7/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10 style build really helps unlock the potential of the build.


Squiggit wrote:

A big part of the mystic theurge's concept though was blending arcane and divine elements together, theoretically in a co-equal fashion to some degree.

A level 10 wizard who has one third level cleric spell slot doesn't really feel like it encapsulates that very well.

This.

The Mystic Theurge blends a both types of magic together...as opposed to a wizard dabbling in druidic magic.


I definetly agree on that. Mystic theurge could be an awesome idea, especially if you could combine any two Branches of magic.

However, i think personally the class needs something unique, instead of just wearing two different hats. Even Druid, Wizard, Bard and cleric feel different From each other.

How about some sort of a "Magical overload" mechanic, to represent the two methods clashing in the caster?


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Mass Kneebreaker wrote:
How about some sort of a "Magical overload" mechanic, to represent the two methods clashing in the caster?

You could make it like the oracle's curse mechanic. Obviously it would have to work differently, but I think I see how it could. One discipline would be the "safe" discipline (spells cast don't trigger the overload), and the other discipline would trigger the overload.

Use of focus spells trigger the oracle's curse, so it should be use of regular spells that trigger the overload. I would exclude cantrips from triggering the overload; it should be an actual spell that does it.

Also, you would have to determine which tradition ends up being which. You could do it on a daily basis (i.e., whichever spell you cast first that day determines the safe discipline, and cantrips don't count), or it could be a locked part of each player's build. The second route is easier for bookkeeping, but the first is more interesting to me.

Finally, you'd have to decide if the overload is a set thing, or if it depends on the tradition that sets off the overload (so an Arcane overload, Divine overload, etc.). The first is easier for bookkeeping, but the second is more interesting to me.


Mass Kneebreaker wrote:

I definetly agree on that. Mystic theurge could be an awesome idea, especially if you could combine any two Branches of magic.

However, i think personally the class needs something unique, instead of just wearing two different hats. Even Druid, Wizard, Bard and cleric feel different From each other.

How about some sort of a "Magical overload" mechanic, to represent the two methods clashing in the caster?

Agreed.

1 spell slot for arcane magic,
1 spell slot for divine magic,
1 spell slot for magical synthesis (whatever that would be...)


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The Halcyon archetypes basically are a primal/arcane Theurge. Could easily just tweak to swap Primal for Divine and you have something super close.


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Verdyn wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
One point I think you forgot is that there are only 10 levels in the Mystic Theurge class. Once you get to Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10, the remaining levels must be either Cleric or Wizard. This is where the PF2 caster starts catching up again.
That's only true if you didn't plan for how to fill those last 4 levels. You could, for example, use the practiced spellcaster feat to do something like going wizard (or cleric) only for those last levels using the feat to fill in the caster level gap for the other class. This sort of thing, even in a simple wizard 7/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10 style build really helps unlock the potential of the build.

The D&D 3.5 feat Practiced Spellcaster and the Pathfinder trait Magical Aptitude improve caster level only -- they don't grant access to higher level spells.


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David knott 242 wrote:
The D&D 3.5 feat Practiced Spellcaster and the Pathfinder trait Magical Aptitude improve caster level only -- they don't grant access to higher level spells.

Very true, but the feat is still extremely useful for such a build if it wants a little bit of specialization without crippling the class that ends up with fewer levels.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

A couple other ideas I've had, consolidated here to be on the same topic:

1. Mistweaver - Basically a port of the Nanocyte from Starfinder, but flavored very differently. Fog/Mist/Clouds are used to cover a lot of thematic ground, used for healing, aoe, walls, acid attacks, and conjuring items.
Your baseline "mist" might even be able to be flavored around, so an android could have a nanite cloud while an Azerketi or Sylph calls a fogbank and a Kobold twists smoke.

2. Akashic - I'm coming to the conclusion that my initial idea for the medium, flexible multiclassing, might not be the best way to go about it. But I do still like the idea of being able to tap into the abilities of someone else, perhaps using their memories.
So, perhaps not as ambitious, this class could be a prepared occult spellcaster that is able, as part of their daily preparations, to select 3-5 multiclass feats to apply to themselves, channeling an akashic echo or a past life. Probably still a support chassis though, to allow for the ability to be at least somewhat competent in either a martial or caster role.


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I just want a class that lets me Bone of my Sword people and who's primary focus is rotating through several weapons in a fight to maximize confusion and style. It'd probably have to be a caster of some kind, but I want it to be primarily martial in function, pulling out throwing knives and javelins to chuck at people instead of cantrips, summoning a big ol' axe just to break it on someone's neck before conjuring a sword to stab a guy. It'd be hard to play, what with all the different die sizes and traits you'd be rotating through, but I personally would love that. Also I'd like the Arcanist back as the "spontaneous" arcane, using the neo-vancian prepared spells known for spontaneous slots, with a focus metamagic that lets them heighten stuff beyond normal, but that's for another thread.


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Some sort of an aura/cowling/spirit-channeler class. The core of the class is in some really generic class-specific cantrips, and a set of overpowered focus spells that give temporary buffs and tuning. So, for exampe, you might have a two-action Spirit Strike cantrip that does base 1d8 damage at range 3. That's kind of anemic, but if you channel a spirit of Fear, it also inflicts Frightened 1 on a crit, and you get an aura preventing enemies from losing the frightened condition while you're adjacent. At higher levels, channeling the spirit of fear might give you bonuses against frightened foes... or something. Once you get a second focus point, you can be channeling two spirits at once, and your spirit strike power gets the buffs from *both* focus spells.

I'm not going to pretend that I can make this thing balanced sitting here thinking about it on the fly, but the basic idea is that you can essentially customize your combat loadout for every fight by deciding which augmenting spirits to call on, and they both give you useful ongoing effects (probably mostly auras, for the thematics) and provide various improvements to various spells.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

yeah this would be cool. I always wanted to see a class or archetype that somehow used "spirits" as a resource. Not sure in what capacity but there were numerous haunt based archetypes in PF1 and I thought it would be interesting if something sort of expanded on that theme


I hope the channeling thoughts/emotions archetype in SoM will let me make a serviceable psychic out of a wizard, or bard, or sorc.


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With the Magus there's an Arcane Fighter now and the monk and paladin are occult/divine fighters leaving a hole that is a primal fighter.
Which could be the shifter but wholly elemental themed would be nice too.

Other than that it's difficult to come up with something that couldn't be an archetype or class archetype instead.


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Schreckstoff wrote:

With the Magus there's an Arcane Fighter now and the monk and paladin are occult/divine fighters leaving a hole that is a primal fighter.

Which could be the shifter but wholly elemental themed would be nice too.

Other than that it's difficult to come up with something that couldn't be an archetype or class archetype instead.

The Ranger is at least as much the primal fighter as the monk is occult, and Barbarian gets a taste of that too. I'm not saying that there's not space for a more heavily primal-themed martial or semi-martial class, but I don't think the "occult fighter" slot is filled all that well either.


Verdyn wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
The D&D 3.5 feat Practiced Spellcaster and the Pathfinder trait Magical Aptitude improve caster level only -- they don't grant access to higher level spells.
Very true, but the feat is still extremely useful for such a build if it wants a little bit of specialization without crippling the class that ends up with fewer levels.

Surely any 3.5 Mystic Theurge is typically going to take Practiced Spellcaster for both their base classes, in which case it will do nothing to "close the gap".

EDIT: Technically I should have said "little" rather than "nothing". Practiced Spellcaster provides up to four caster levels - one side will get the full four while the other will be capped at three, to it will close the gap by one level. Still, pretty insignificant compared with two extra spell levels!

_
glass.


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3.5 Mystic Theurge is not about high spell level. It was about sheer quantity of spells. Specially because 3.5 spells scaled by caster level so even a low level spell could be huge late game.

For it to work in PF2 it would need a lot of considerations. The fact spell level masters more than caster level means that just having quantity doesn't mean much. But then again buff and debuff spells don't have to be high level, and that is right up the ally for a Mystic Theurge.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I don't think there is much reason for a "mystic theurge" class in PF2 with the multiclass archetypes and other options such as Eldritch Researcher, Halcyon Speaker, etc. dedications; especially with the Free Archetype variant from the Gamemastery Guide (or even the Dual-Class variant, with a restriction that at least one class must be a spellcaster).

Re: 3.5 mystic theurge

The "best" (most spellcasting) mystic theurge in 3.5 was by going mystic theurge after druid 4/wizard 3 (or druid 3/wizard 4)/arcane hierophant 10. Arcane hierophant was also +3/4 BAB and d6 HD, which made it a bit easier to "switch-hit" between CoDzilla and pure spellcasting.

For cleric/wizard mystic theurge, one decent route was cleric 3/wizard (Conjurer*) 3/mystic theurge 4/thaumaturgist 2/[mystic theurge +4 and thaumaturgist +2 in whatever desired order]/[either mystic theurge +1 or thaumaturgist +1]**; with Divine Metamagic (plus possibly Extra Turning) and Quicken Spell to go with Contingent Conjuration, the character can have three summon monster spells activate in a single round (although the Quickened one must be from the wizard spell slots). With heroism up as a middle duration buff, divine favor (possibly Quickened) or divine power at the start of combat, and a +X twilight feycraft mithral breastplate (0% arcane failure chance), they are also OK as a secondary combatant on a limited basis (not quite CoDzilla, but not hopelessly "squishy" either).

Re: PF1 mystic theurge

Lack of easily exploitable options (such as Divine Metamagic) and the existence of other ways to add spells normally found on other lists (samsaran with Mystic Past Life, Magaambyan initiate or white mage arcanist, witch class patrons, Fey Spell Lore and Fey Versatility feats, etc.) make mystic theurge less of a "need" to realize many concepts in PF1.

Personally, I found it less useful for two 9/9 spellcasting classes (the "classic" mystic theurge) and more useful for characters like magus 5/cleric (channel negative energy***) 1/magus +1 (Broad Study)/cleric +1/magus +1/cleric +1/mystic theurge 10, paladin 7/bard 1/dragon disciple 4/paladin +2/mystic theurge 6, or other combinations using a 6/9 caster with either a 9/9 caster or 4/9 caster.

*- Rapid Summoning variant
**- depending on how important Planar Cohort is to the character
***- for spontaneous casting of inflict spells to add more potential spell slots to use with Spellstrike; cleric also adds some additional buff spells


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Dragonchess Player wrote:
I don't think there is much reason for a "mystic theurge" class in PF2 with the multiclass archetypes and other options such as Eldritch Researcher, Halcyon Speaker, etc. dedications; especially with the Free Archetype variant from the Gamemastery Guide (or even the Dual-Class variant, with a restriction that at least one class must be a spellcaster).

Doesn’t need to be a reason for something to have it in game.

“That people might enjoy playing it” is reason enough.

It’s a not a zero-sum proposition. They can add as many classes to the game as they have page space and we’re willing to spend money on. “Priority” is a fairer argument, but I think the kineticist would be the final priority class whose play style cannot be adequately replicated by the current classes. Everything else exists for the joy of it.

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