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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Intrigue (PFRPG)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Intrigue (PFRPG)
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Words Cut Deep

In the right setting, a single scathing word can prove deadlier than a poisoned dagger. Behind the scenes of heroic battles and magical realms lies a seething underbelly of danger and deception. This world of intrigue holds endless possibilities for adventure, as heroes duel with words instead of steel, plot daring heists, and engage in battles of wills against relentless nemeses. A high-stakes game of shadows and secrets is yours to master—if you have the wits!

Whether the heroes are taming the blood-soaked back alleys of their favorite metropolis or jockeying for the queen's favor alongside highborn nobles, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue is an invaluable companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue includes:

  • The vigilante, a new character class that lives two lives—that of an unassuming member of the community, and a cloaked crusader with his own agenda!
  • New archetypes for alchemists, bards, druids, hunters, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, slayers, spiritualists, and more!
  • New feats and magic items for characters of all sorts, granting mastery of street-smart combat, impenetrable disguises, and misdirection.
  • Dozens of spells to manipulate tense social settings, whether to reveal adversaries' secrets or hide the truth.
  • A complete system of influence, providing new goals and rewards to challenge players and link their fortunes to nonplayer characters and organizations.
  • Systems and advice to help Game Masters introduce a variety of new encounters into their games­—daring heists, extended pursuits, and tense searches for buried secrets.
  • Rules for social combat and verbal duels, allowing characters to use words as weapons to sway hearts and humiliate foes.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-826-7

Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:

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A Must-Have for Heavy RP Games

5/5 —

Okay, let's get into Ultimate Intrigue! As the title implies, the purpose of this book is to help flesh out more subtle elements of the game: things like spreading rumors, rallying a crowd, stealing secrets, and other classic cloak-and-dagger stuff. I've used bits and pieces of it in previous campaigns, but read through it carefully (and incorporated a fair bit of it) for my current Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign, as that adventure path is designed around urban political strife. Boiled down to brass tacks, the book is a 256 page hardcover comprised of six chapters. The full-colour artwork is very strong throughout, and the cover is great (though Merisiel's legs are like three times longer than her torso!). There's a very short two-page introduction that summarises each chapter--which is what I'm going to do anyway.

Chapter 1 is "Classes" (60 pages). The big deal here is a new base case, the Vigilante. The concept is that the character has both a normal (social) identity and a masked identity, with certain class options only working while in the associated guise. There are also several safeguards to help keep anyone from figuring out that Bruce Wayne is really Batman. I have a Vigilante character in Pathfinder Society, and one of my players runs one in Curse of the Crimson Throne. I think the class is perfect for an urban campaign mostly set in a single city (especially with lots room for intrigue), but it doesn't work as well with the more traditional "travelling adventuring party" campaign. It's a bit too obvious when five newcomers arrive in town, only for one of them to "disappear" and a new costumed avenger show up. I know there are also some gamers who dislike what can seem like the awkward introduction of comic book super heroes into their fantasy role-playing. For me, I think the concept works well--though as I said, only in particular types of campaigns.

A large chunk of the chapter is devoted to new archetypes for other classes. More specifically, alchemists, bards, cavaliers, druids, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, skalds, spiritualists, swashbucklers, and vigilantes get some love. Frankly, a lot of the archetypes are fairly forgettable, but there are exceptions--for example, a Daring General Cavalier would be great in military campaigns, the Dandy Ranger could be really useful in an urban campaign, and a couple of the vigilante archetypes are perfect if you want to play the Hulk or Spider-Man. Although the rogue archetypes aren't very good, there are several excellent rogue talents that focus on making the character harder to track through divination, etc. It's worth nothing that this book came out during the period when the hardcover line was still setting-neutral, so there won't be any Golarion-specific flavour with the archetypes (for better or worse depending on your preferences).

Chapter 2 is "Feats" (24 pages). There's something like 110 new feats in the chapter, and probably something for everyone. Given the book's theme, many of the feats are related to sneaking around, hiding and disguising spells, stealing stuff, making plans, figuring out when you're being to lied to, etc. A few that I particularly like include Brilliant Planner (giving you the chance to have just what you need just when you need it), Call Truce (giving a slim chance to actually end combat peacefully when its underway), and Drunkard's Recovery (silly but fun). A couple of important feats are Conceal Spell (which hides the pesky manifestations that spells create in Pathfinder) and Fencing Grace (adding Dex to damage with rapiers, a favourite of swashbucklers everywhere). Overall, I thought the options presented were well-written and plausible in terms of desirability.

Chapter 3 is "Mastering Intrigue" (68 pages). This is probably the most important chapter in the book for GMs. It offers tons of useful advice, as well as clarification on some tricky game mechanics, to help run intrigue-based games. The pages about how common magic spells can be handled while still preserving mysteries, secrets, and misdirection is pure gold. The chapter also introduces seven new rules sub-systems, any or all of which can be incorporated into a campaign to flesh out certain aspects of gameplay. "Influence" is a sub-system that deepens the process of persuading a person or organisation to support you. Instead of a simple single Dipomacy check, PCs need to make certain skill checks to learn a person's interests and weaknesses, and then other skill checks to take advantage of what they've learned. The process operates through multiple phases of tracked successes and failures, and can be tied to mechanical favours and benefits. It's become a very popular facet of many Pathfinder Society scenarios, and I think it's a pretty clever way to handle things--though it can be a bit clunky at first. "Heists" is a sub-system that contains some excellent advice to GMs on how to structure things so players don't obsess over unimportant trivia and are willing to violate that old canard of "don't split the party." "Infiltration" contains some quick advice, but that's about it. "Leadership" deepens the feat of the same name, adding lots of rules for interacting with other sub-systems both in this book and in Ultimate Campaign. I'm personally still not persuaded that the Leadership feat chain is a good inclusion to the game. "Nemeses" is all about adding a recurring villain; I think it's trying to systematise something that could be handled just fine without it. Though there are some fun suggestions on evil plots to foil. "Pursuit" is a little like the Chase sub-system from the GameMastery Guide but stretched out over hours and days cross-country instead of in minutes through alleyways. I could imagine using it. "Research" is probably my favourite of the sub-systems, and one I've used in multiple campaigns. In essence, it gives the PCs a reason to use things like libraries and archives by giving them bonuses to their Knowledge checks, but then makes gaining different thresholds of information the result of multiple successful checks. Overall, a great chapter--I wish the Influence and Research sub-systems had been in the Core Rulebook, because they really add a lot to the non-combat aspects of the game.

Chapter 4 is "Social Combat" (25 pages). The idea here is to present GMs with options on how to handle social conflicts--things like debates, trials, cutting repartee, etc. There's also a "verbal duels" sub-system. I'm just not sure about it--it's something I'd have to see in practice. However, a really useful part of the chapter is advice to the GM on how to handle the various social skills in the game--Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive--as well as the intrigue skills like Disguise, Perception, and Stealth. The advice here is excellent, and I just stopped in the middle of this review to reread it.

Chapter 5 is "Spells" (40 pages). You can judge from the length of the chapter that there's a ton of new spells, and every spellcasting class will find something. One of the fun things the chapter introduces is a new "ruse" descriptor for spells, which means the spell is easily mistaken for another even by observers trained in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana). It's a good way to mislead folks who have played way too much Pathfinder. There are some really clever spells in this section, with a couple of my favourites including false resurrection (instead of bringing back a soul, you stuff a demon into the body!) and the hilarious shamefully overdressed.

Chapter 6 is "Gear and Magic Items" (22 pages). There are some new mundane pieces of equipment (weapons like the cool wrist dart launcher, alchemical items, etc.) but most of the chapter is new magic items with an intrigue theme. The one that really stuck out at me was the launcher of distraction, which is perfect for assassination attempts because it makes it seem like the attack is coming from somewhere else.

Overall, I think Ultimate Intrigue is an excellent book. It's pretty much a must-have in my opinion for any campaign that's going to involve a lot of role-playing or that moves beyond traditional dungeon crawling and wilderness encounters. Even readers not involved in "intrigue campaigns" per se are sure to find plenty of material they can use.

1/5 —

Don't get me wrong I love Paizo books, I love their work, and I'm proud to own almost all of their publications.

However, Ultimate Intrigue is the one book I regret buying. It's even more than that, it's the one book i regret they ever published.

We need rules and systems, ok. We need a magic system because magic isn't a real thing. We need a combat system otherwise playing with your grilfriend become home abuse. But we don't need a social system because it's a ROLEPLAYING game. Either you want intrigue heavy campaign and you roleplay them, or you want to dungeon crawl or investigate (that's fine too) and you don't play intrigues. You can even do both and it's great.

Aside from that massive problem, the book suffers from "a turn normal actions into feats/class ability" syndrome. I can't count the number of time where players made me fighters to wizards or rogues with a dual identity. We didn't need the Vigilante, and still don't. And I loved when wizard use to get clever and ask for linguistics/bluff roll to blend a spell into a phrase. Now you need a feat for it. Thanks, Ultimate Intrigue. If that was not enough, some of these nonsense feat are built in feat tax chains.

But the one thing I hate the most about this book is the stupid FAQ it bestowed upon us to promote itself (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tza). That makes a whole school of magic (illusion) utterly useless, and destroys a lot of others (enchantment).

Now I know I can just refuse to use it. But i use to love pathfinder for the clarity and perfect sense with out need to houserule much.

Now it's gone.

I'm tired of paizo trying to stuff this book down our face

1/5 —

If I was playing a home campaign this book might be more fitting,

For society play this verbal debate and other ideas for this book really bog down the game play. I like social aspect of games and role playing but as I said society play it slows the game way down to try and get people up to snuff on the mechanics

An amazing new class in a hit and miss supplement

4/5 —

So, Ultimate Intrigue took a long time for me to come to a complete opinion on.

The Vigilante class introduced in this book is, in my opinion, easily the best non-spellcasting class Paizo has ever created. It breaks up its social options and combat options in such a way that you have a great character able to participate in all areas of the game without having to choose whether you want to be competent in combat or in the myriad other facets of the game like exploration, social encounters, etc. It has deep and well-designed talents that allow you to pick any of a variety of different ways to participate in combat, with or without weapons, and numerous tools for allowing players to influence the story with safe houses, contacts, and more.

At PAX Prime 2016 I had the opportunity to visit Paizo's Pathfinder demo area and play their pregenerated vigilante character. I honestly didn't expect it to go terribly well; after all, the vigilante is a class built around balancing two identities and moving between different social strata, so you'd think that this would require a more controlled environment where you know the other players in advance and have time to plan out how your character fits into the game world with your GM ahead of time, right? Turns out, I was wrong. The vigilante class is well-crafted enough that even while playing a 1st level pregen I was able to easily deal with situations in and out of combat, and it took me about 60 seconds of conversation to establish with the group that I had a secret identity they were privy to and might need them to cover for my character from time to time if he needed to swap identities. It didn't hurt matters that the only downside to anyone learning a vigilante's secret identity is that, well, they know his or her secret identity. You can go all Tony Stark if you want, announce that you are Iron Man, and carry on as normal. Very few of the vigilante's abilities actually require you to maintain truly secret identities, and the only real hit you take is that you're a bit easier to find by magical means (though even this can be addressed with clever use of the Safe House Social Talent).

The book also elaborates on the intent behind numerous spells that often prove problematic for GMs in games where they want to have a focus on gritty investigation of mystery, such as the various detect spells, speak with dead, etc.

I think my biggest disappointments with the book, and the reason I can't give it 5 stars, lie in the feats and archetypes. I'll start with the feats, and a bit about why I see most of them as representative of missed opportunities.

To start with, Pathfinder's skill system is heavily dated. When Paizo brought it over from 3.5, they combined a few extraneous skills, but otherwise did little to update things, meaning the core area of the rules covering everything in the game that isn't casting spells or hitting things is now well over a decade old and out of date. Several skills don't even actually work, or work well, as written, have interactions you're just supposed to kind of assume or make up (Ride and Handle Animal are a mess, Stealth requires one to check out FAQs and blog posts online to use as intended, Bluff and Diplomacy have more than a few vague areas and inconsistencies, etc.), so what better book to address, update, and expand these core components of the game than a book about playing skill and intrigue heavy campaigns? Unfortunately, Paizo chose not to go that route, instead relying on feats to stretch skills over their gaps and issues, leading to many of the feats in the this book providing skill uses that I've seen GMs at hundreds of tables houserule as basic functions of those skills to begin with. Instead of formalizing intuitive uses of existing skills into their basic function, they added a feat tax to allow characters to do things many people already thought they could do. While there is a section in the book going over several of the vague areas in a few key skills, these are primarily common sense clarifications instead of the full address the skills could have used.

The archetypes, like many Paizo hardcovers, are all over the place. Some of them are interesting and dynamic, like the Masked Performer bard archetype, some show an attempt at embodying a cool and modern concept but fail to achieve that concept in the actual execution, like the Magical Child vigilante archetype, and some are just plain bad, so obviously terribly designed that you almost wonder if the person who wrote them has ever actually played Pathfinder, like the Brute vigilante archetype.

Now, don't let the above wall of negativity mislead you; there is a lot of great stuff in this book, including perhaps the most inspired and well-crafted class Paizo has ever produced, a class that introduces really interesting design concepts, plays with components of the class chassis we haven't seen classes treat as quite so malleable before, and is a genuinely fun and interesting class to play in and of itself. Despite many of the feats ranging from useless to frustrating, there are still quite a few that are interesting and viable, and while the archetypes are very hit or miss, that's generally true of Paizo books in general and probably shouldn't be held against this one in particular.

My final verdict on Ultimate Intrigue is 4 stars, and a strong recommendation to pick it up, if for no other reason than to add the Vigilante class to your game (though there definitely are other reasons to add this book to your collection).

Pathfinder presents Batman!

4/5 —

No seriously. The vigilante class is freaking batman. Look at the art for chapter one and for the character. HE'S BATMAN. Of course they also have archetypes if you want to make Hulk, Sailor Moon, even He-Man. With the archetypes from other books the list goes on.
My favorite part, and I cannot wait to test this properly in a game, is the social combat. It works a lot like playing craps or roulette. You get a pool of Determination points which you use to place a bet then you roll off with your social skills check! Seriously it sounds like lots of fun!

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I have to admit really it does sound like a fun new book. The change to Fencing Grace is a little depressing. Then again I just find the spell combat restrictions annoying.
CBDunkerson wrote:
Throne wrote:
The slashing grace 'fix' (in the fashion that you get your cat fixed by the vet) wasn't errata. It was just a plain old nerf to feed someone on staff's personal bugbear. But we still had Fencing Grace that wasn't going to get errata'd because it was in a Companion, so 'hey, let's reprint it and screw that one too!'. Smells like good old petty spite.
Actually, to me it seemed pretty clear that the errata version was the intent all along... all the way back to Dervish Dance. Just wasn't worded clearly enough to prevent all the exceptions people wanted to introduce. ...

If it was a blanket rule that applied to Dervish Dance as well, then it wouldn't bother me so much. I might dislike such a global design decision, but at least I could understand the rationale. It's the fact that Scimitars work but nothing else does that I find frustrating. Rapiers are no more powerful than Scimitars (they arguably are less powerful), and as finesseable weapons it actually makes more sense that Rapiers could get Dex to damage. I really don't understand why we can have a Dervish Dance for Scimitars, but not a similar feat for Rapiers. And having had one for a while, and then having it taken away just emphasizes the Scimitar favoritism.

Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Cruel Illusion wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Throne wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:
It'd be nice for them to explain WHY when they make such controversial decisions.
We know the answer. Goes something like "Whoops! Martials got a nice thing! Get back in your 2-handed Fighter box and stay there."

You've already decided the conclusion is unacceptable. What possible justification could Paizo give that would make you feel better about it?

Giving the 'justification' for a controversial decision just encourages people to argue with it - either out of the sheer principle of the thing or a misguided belief that if they shout loud enough the decision will be reversed.

Probably true, but is arguing such a bad thing? It proves people ccare enough about the game to be bothered when they feel something is wrong with it.

When I stopped complaining about D&D 4th, that was because I stopped playing it.

I would also be interested in hearing the rationale behind limiting two-weapon-fighting dex-to-damage to the rogue. In particular, I'm curious about the magus, because it really feels, thematically, like a class that should support fencing builds. I don't even play a magus!

That said, it's been pretty obvious that TWF-dex-to-damage is not something that Paizo is interested in supporting outside of the unchained rogue class. While it's a little surprising that there was a nerfed reprint of a splatbook feat, getting angry about it isn't going to change anything. Nobody likes reading angry feedback and we're more likely to win the hearts and minds of the development team if we keep our feedback civil and rational.

And besides, it sounds like there's a lot of other good stuff in here. Don't let one feat ruin it for you!
Liberty's Edge
Throne wrote:
Interesting claim... what part of the original Slashing Grace wording gave you the impression that the other hand had to remain empty and inactive?

"When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed..."

This could, and apparently did, refer to the one-handed combat style (cf. one-handed weapon tricks) as easily as 'not two-handed'.
2 people marked this as a favorite.
Terminalmancer wrote:

Nobody likes reading angry feedback and we're more likely to win the hearts and minds of the development team if we keep our feedback civil and rational.

And besides, it sounds like there's a lot of other good stuff in here. Don't let one feat ruin it for you!

See, I tend to come at it from the other direction; I'm not interested in winning the hearts and minds of the dev team, because I don't believe it's possible if you're not vociferously agreeing with everything they do.

But, when they're trying to sell a product the meat of which is legally and morally freely available, they should probably try to avoid actively disincentivising people from purchasing it, which is the effect that 'errata' which isn't actually fixing errors but making ham-fisted balance changes with no rhyme or reason has; why would I buy their books when I fully expect that I'm not going to be able to use them in 2 months time, because of changes that made what I liked useless, or so drastically different that I have to use the SRD anyway?

If they provided an adequate level of customer service, explained the changes and actually showed an interest in helping people understand where they come from so they might better be able to predict what's going to just be castrated later anyway and avoid buying something they won't get much use out of people might be less frustrated.
But also wouldn't buy the bait & switch content, which I expect is the reason they don't do that.

(Am I being a tiny bit ungenerous towards the staff? Perhaps.
Is it the product of experience and thus entirely earned? Youbetcha.)
Shadow Lodge
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You should go look and see how well that strategy worked for Frank Trollman.
1 person marked this as a favorite.
CBDunkerson wrote:
Throne wrote:
Interesting claim... what part of the original Slashing Grace wording gave you the impression that the other hand had to remain empty and inactive?

"When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed..."

This could, and apparently did, refer to the one-handed combat style (cf. one-handed weapon tricks) as easily as 'not two-handed'.

Right, I got it as 'not two-handed', no problem.

But 'wielding a weapon one handed' is a specific thing, and that specific thing doesn't discount doing anything with the other hand except wielding that same weapon.

From the link you posted yourself, 'You can use these tricks only while wearing light or no armor, wielding a light or one-handed manufactured weapon in one hand, and holding nothing in your off hand';
If wielding a weapon in one hand automatically meant keeping the other free, then there'd be no need for the 'and holding nothing in your off hand' part. This isn't the only time that caveat appears (Dervish Dance also pairs the 'wielding with one hand' requirement with the 'no weapon/shield in the off hand' caveat). If you were mentally adding that yourself because you assumed that was the intent, that's fine, but it's not suggested in the original feat, and it's not 'wanting to introduce exceptions' to not use it that way.
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Take the debate elsewhere, lads and lasses! This is a product discussion thread. People want to read what is NEW, not your rehashed hatred of the past.

Well, it looks like Xenok got what he asked for way back in the Blood of Shadows product discussion: the Shadow Caller! Very nice Spiritualist archetype. Thus far, my fav in the book. Excellent art for it too--who was the artist?
Deflect Blame is such a fun spell--essentially, you can act/attack and say "He/She did it!"
A Will Save is necessary to see through the ruse.
Liberty's Edge
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Is "Ready for Anything" the victim of a missing comma, or does the feat really have four prerequisite feats?
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
DrSwordopolis wrote:
Is "Ready for Anything" the victim of a missing comma, or does the feat really have four prerequisite feats?

Is it a feat or is it simply an acknowledgement that once you qualify for the feat, you are in fact ready for anything?

(sorry, just still waiting for my copy to ship so I can read the pretty pretty PDF...)

Totally unrelated to the Fencing Grace debate, what's the word on the Gray Paladin. I'm hearing conflicting reports about exactly what changes it makes, and if it makes the changes I prefer I will be a very happy ferret.

Maybe the "Ready for Anything" was supposed to have a ";"?

Gray Paladin changes alignment, skills, smite, aura of courage, resolve, righteousness. It gets rid of aura of good and divine grace. Conduct and ex get replaced. Same with divine health. Smite is altered and channel is replaced. Aura of justice is replaced. Loosely in that order according to the text.
Designer
FedoraFerret wrote:
Totally unrelated to the Fencing Grace debate, what's the word on the Gray Paladin. I'm hearing conflicting reports about exactly what changes it makes, and if it makes the changes I prefer I will be a very happy ferret.

The report that it gets a flexible smite and constant nondetection for self and nearby allies, has a much more flexible code that lets you do a lot more before you fall (and be LN or NG), gains some of the more intriguey social skills, and then loses divine grace and flat-out immunities (keeping the +4 from the aura, though, so you still have really high saves against those things) was correct.

Mark Seifter wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Totally unrelated to the Fencing Grace debate, what's the word on the Gray Paladin. I'm hearing conflicting reports about exactly what changes it makes, and if it makes the changes I prefer I will be a very happy ferret.
The report that it gets a flexible smite and constant nondetection for self and nearby allies, has a much more flexible code that lets you do a lot more before you fall (and be LN or NG), gains some of the more intriguey social skills, and then loses divine grace and flat-out immunities (keeping the +4 from the aura, though, so you still have really high saves against those things) was correct.

So that means the report that it's an Any Good archetype was wrong. *sigh* Mark, will my dreams of a Paladin of Milani ever come true?

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FedoraFerret wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Totally unrelated to the Fencing Grace debate, what's the word on the Gray Paladin. I'm hearing conflicting reports about exactly what changes it makes, and if it makes the changes I prefer I will be a very happy ferret.
The report that it gets a flexible smite and constant nondetection for self and nearby allies, has a much more flexible code that lets you do a lot more before you fall (and be LN or NG), gains some of the more intriguey social skills, and then loses divine grace and flat-out immunities (keeping the +4 from the aura, though, so you still have really high saves against those things) was correct.
So that means the report that it's an Any Good archetype was wrong. *sigh* Mark, will my dreams of a Paladin of Milani ever come true?

Well. You can have a Sentinal of Milani. A Warpriest/Evangelist of Milani too.

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Can't you be 1 step from CG (NG) and then worship Milani?

But as a player with a Paladin of Freedom in an active 3.5 game...

Give us freedom or give us death!
Designer
Xethik wrote:

Can't you be 1 step from CG (NG) and then worship Milani?

But as a player with a Paladin of Freedom in an active 3.5 game...

Give us freedom or give us death!

You still need to worship a LG, LN, or NG deity for gray paladin. But this will let you match your deity entirely for LN or NG.

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Alright who made the spiderman archetype? I now got that song stuck in my head now!
Designer
zergtitan wrote:
Alright who made the spiderman archetype? I now got that song stuck in my head now!

That was Amanda. She did all the vigilante archetypes except Cabalist, Warlock, and Zealot!

Skeld et al,

Any updates available on the Investigator?

Any new Talents? New Archetypes?

If you could please share a bit of that information, with some insight into what each does, I would very much appreciate the feedback! Also, thank you all, again, for sharing.
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Lanitril wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
So that means the report that it's an Any Good archetype was wrong. *sigh* Mark, will my dreams of a Paladin of Milani ever come true?
Well. You can have a Sentinal of Milani. A Warpriest/Evangelist of Milani too.

Yes, but that's not what I want to build :x

Mark Seifter wrote:
Xethik wrote:

Can't you be 1 step from CG (NG) and then worship Milani?

But as a player with a Paladin of Freedom in an active 3.5 game...

Give us freedom or give us death!

You still need to worship a LG, LN, or NG deity for gray paladin. But this will let you match your deity entirely for LN or NG.

Se we can have Paladins besides Lawful Good?

Silver Crusade
FedoraFerret wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
FedoraFerret wrote:
Totally unrelated to the Fencing Grace debate, what's the word on the Gray Paladin. I'm hearing conflicting reports about exactly what changes it makes, and if it makes the changes I prefer I will be a very happy ferret.
The report that it gets a flexible smite and constant nondetection for self and nearby allies, has a much more flexible code that lets you do a lot more before you fall (and be LN or NG), gains some of the more intriguey social skills, and then loses divine grace and flat-out immunities (keeping the +4 from the aura, though, so you still have really high saves against those things) was correct.
So that means the report that it's an Any Good archetype was wrong. *sigh* Mark, will my dreams of a Paladin of Milani ever come true?

No, because a character that is not lawful good cannot be a paladin, by definition. Unless of course they decide to chuck in something like the old Forgotten Realms exception where Sune would sponsor (still LG) paladins because she fancied them. :P

Shadow Lodge
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Renegade Paladin wrote:
No, because a character that is not lawful good cannot be a paladin, by definition.

Well, they can now.

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Mark, are Secret Brokers supposed to still have outside contact?
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Wyrmfoe wrote:

Skeld et al,

Any updates available on the Investigator?

Any new Talents? New Archetypes?

If you could please share a bit of that information, with some insight into what each does, I would very much appreciate the feedback! Also, thank you all, again, for sharing.

No new talents.

Several new archetypes: Cipher, Conspirator, Forensic Physician, Hallucinist, and Majordomo.
Renegade Paladin wrote:
No, because a character that is not lawful good cannot be a paladin, by definition. Unless of course they decide to chuck in something like the old Forgotten Realms exception where Sune would sponsor (still LG) paladins because she fancied them. :P

>points to the paladin archetype in this book that we're literally discussing right now.

Silver Crusade
TOZ wrote:
Renegade Paladin wrote:
No, because a character that is not lawful good cannot be a paladin, by definition.
Well, they can now.

No, now we have posers pretending at the role. There's a difference. :P

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Renegade Paladin wrote:
No, because a character that is not lawful good cannot be a paladin, by definition.

1. If your going by proper meaning on Paladin, then lawful good has nothing to do with it.

2. If your going with the games meaning of Paladin, then yes you can, you take the archetype.

3. If your going by a different meaning of Paladin, then that meaning only exists in your head.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Xethik wrote:

Can't you be 1 step from CG (NG) and then worship Milani?

But as a player with a Paladin of Freedom in an active 3.5 game...

Give us freedom or give us death!

You still need to worship a LG, LN, or NG deity for gray paladin. But this will let you match your deity entirely for LN or NG.

Ah right. That was stated and I flushed it from my mind. Oops.

Silver Crusade
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Milo v3 wrote:
Renegade Paladin wrote:
No, because a character that is not lawful good cannot be a paladin, by definition.

1. If your going by proper meaning on Paladin, then lawful good has nothing to do with it.

2. If your going with the games meaning of Paladin, then yes you can, you take the archetype.

3. If your going by a different meaning of Paladin, then that meaning only exists in your head.

I'm using the definition of the Pearl Poet as recorded in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and translated by Brian Stone in 1974. Gawain's behavior that caused the Green Knight to say that he "truly seem[ed] to be the most perfect paladin ever to pace the earth" was the epitome of knightly and chivalric virtue; honesty, forthrightness, courage, fidelity, and faithfulness to his word. Slackers who don't want to live up to that don't get to claim the title.

Grand Lodge
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Take it up with Gary then.
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Renegade Paladin wrote:
I'm using the definition of the Pearl Poet as recorded in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Gawain's behavior that caused the Green Knight to say that he "truly seem[ed] to be the most perfect paladin ever to pace the earth" was the epitome of knightly and chivalric virtue; honesty, forthrightness, courage, fidelity, and faithfulness to his word. Slackers who don't want to live up to that don't get to claim the title.

Ah yes, knightly and chivalry virtues... The type of morals where butchering people just because your lord says so is virtuous. :P

Silver Crusade
Milo v3 wrote:
Renegade Paladin wrote:
I'm using the definition of the Pearl Poet as recorded in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Gawain's behavior that caused the Green Knight to say that he "truly seem[ed] to be the most perfect paladin ever to pace the earth" was the epitome of knightly and chivalric virtue; honesty, forthrightness, courage, fidelity, and faithfulness to his word. Slackers who don't want to live up to that don't get to claim the title.
Ah yes, knightly and chivalry virtues... The type of morals where butchering people just because your lord says so is virtuous. :P

You may notice that the Green Knight did not call knights who did such things perfect paladins, and is heavily implied in the story to have a long history of chopping the heads off of ones who had failed his tests. That things were done does not mean that those things were commonly considered virtuous.

The books sounds pretty good from what I've read here.

By the way, can I get some information on that 'Matchmaker' spell I seem to recall hearing about? Like the duration, is there a chance to resist, how does it work, etc.?

Have there been any new Investigator Talents since Advanced Class Origins?

Are Ultimate Intrigue's Rogue Talents an option for Investigators?
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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Eric Hinkle wrote:

The books sounds pretty good from what I've read here.

By the way, can I get some information on that 'Matchmaker' spell I seem to recall hearing about? Like the duration, is there a chance to resist, how does it work, etc.?

Spoiler:
1 hour/level, will save, and some amazing art on p218 that depicts the spell in action.
Eric Hinkle wrote:

The books sounds pretty good from what I've read here.

By the way, can I get some information on that 'Matchmaker' spell I seem to recall hearing about? Like the duration, is there a chance to resist, how does it work, etc.?

Enemies get a big bonus on their save, and it won't change sexual preferences or other limitations- it'll "fail over" to platonic in that case.

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Yeah but most everyone on Golarion is bisexual unless otherwise stated, so that is not much of a limit.
1 person marked this as a favorite.
TOZ wrote:
Renegade Paladin wrote:
No, because a character that is not lawful good cannot be a paladin, by definition.
Well, they can now.

To be fair, RP's stance is pretty much identical to what James Jacobs/Paizo's stance has been up to this point.

Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Wyrmfoe wrote:
Are Ultimate Intrigue's Rogue Talents an option for Investigators?

No, since they would have to be specifically made available as Investigator talents and this book contains no new Investigator talents.

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Quandary wrote:
To be fair, RP's stance is pretty much identical to what James Jacobs/Paizo's stance has been up to this point.

I find it strange how other classes are allowed to have archetypes that changes the concept but somehow if you make a paladin archetype that makes it not the horrible cliche they're not real paladins.

So, gotta ask, any Brawler archies?

I am curious if, even house-ruling, the Gray Paladin Archetype could be trivially combined with Anti-Paladin or Tyrant.
(fleshing out each corner's adjacent alignments)
Or if Paizo now does a CG Alt-Class of Paladin, if it would work with many Paladin Archetypes?
Secret Wizard wrote:
So, gotta ask, any Brawler archies?

Nothing.

No new Investigator talents? In an Ultimate Intrigue book?

I am starting to be more surprised at the lack of focus on classes that deserve the "intrigue" goodies above all others than I am at what's in the book.

Well, we do have Spymaster's Handbook coming up so maybe that will fill in some gaps?
Barachiel Shina wrote:

No new Investigator talents? In an Ultimate Intrigue book?

I am starting to be more surprised at the lack of focus on classes that deserve the "intrigue" goodies above all others than I am at what's in the book.

Well, we do have Spymaster's Handbook coming up so maybe that will fill in some gaps?

Investigator does get 5 archetypes, so it's not like they were completely forgotten.

Would you please share info on the five investigator archetypes?

Also, any feats perhaps particularly relevant to investigators?
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:
So, gotta ask, any Brawler archies?

If you're interested, I listed the archetypes in this book here.

What exactly is the Urushiol Druid?
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