Enjoying this product now.
Quick question for feedback:
Am I wrong in thinking "Oath of the Skyseeker" is actually quite impressive and offers a distinct "flavor" for dwarven paladins?
Previous to this product, dwarven paladins had the Stonelord archetype (which almost constituted an alternate class in and of itself), but otherwise had fewer options with which to distinguish their paladin-themes from what I suggest are the more dominant themes inherent in human demon/dragonslayer and undead bane concepts.
While Oath Against Savagery was nice (and, frankly I think, far too underutilized), it was neither necessarily dwarven-specific, nor potentially worth playing as a dwarf given that race's Charisma penalty.
However, the options of "Oath of the Skyseeker" seem to make up for the potential (and, admittedly, minor) difficulties of playing a dwarf teamed with a Charisma-based caster, given that one can now effectively treat Smite Evil as targeting an entire class of creature each battle (provided distance permits). This seems to be a great balance mechanically, as well as accentuating the different flavor of dwarf paladins versus their more common knight of virtue human analogs.
Any thoughts on the Oath of the Skyseeker? Do people like it?
Thank you very much for these!
Any additional information available on what they do?
"Scry Slip" requires those targeting the rogue with scrying effects that permit a Will save to first succeed on caster level check vs. 15+rogue's level. "Scry Slip" wards both the rogue and any objects the rogue is wearing or carrying.
"Hidden Mind" wards the rogue with a constant "Nondetection" effect, which enacts the same requirement of a successful caster level check vs. 15+rogue's level, but impacts more categories of divination than just scrying effects.
My question is whether these two talents stack?
A follow-up: if not, is there a reason to get them both?
Is there something "Scry Slip" provides, that "Hidden Mind"'s "Nondetection" effect doesn't cover?
Is there a limit to how many times a Phantom Thief can take a vigilante social talent in lieu of a rogue talent?
The wording from Phantom Thief is as follows:
"Finally, she can select a vigilante social talent instead of a rogue talent, except for social grace and vigilante social talents that would require her to be a craftsman or professional."
Is the above meant conversationally, in that whenever I might take "a rogue talent," I may take social talents, or is that meant to limit the option to "a" single rogue talent?
Luthorne and QuidEst, thank you very much for the feedback.
I am intrigued by "Guise of Undeath," but unsure of its applications. If some here are interested and willing, I very much welcome your thoughts on the following. My apologies in advance if such is beyond the scope of this thread, though I do think the conversation might help shed light on how the new material in the book is applied to larger Pathfinder series and world.
So, I'm working on a Zealot Vigilante of Pharasma, who hunts necromancers and the unquiet dead. I'm wondering, would "Guise of Unlife" be useful for such a character? If so, how?
It seems that the talent allows a Vigilante to masquerade effectively as an undead creature. If so, how does the additional social identity work?
Do I simply pick a generic creature type for my Vigilante to mimic (a la the "Many Guises" social talent), using the form to better infiltrate a necromancer's lair? Do I masquerade as a specific creature, a particular vampire perhaps (similar to the "Everyman" social talent), thereby gaining an entire identity and role among vampiric courts and society?
Would someone mind spoiling a bit more about the Investigator and Vigilante talents?
While I would love to know more about each one, I'm particularly interested in "Guise of Life" and especially "Guise of Unlife."
The latter is of great interest (working on a Zealot Vigilante of Pharasma who hunts necromancers and the unquiet dead). Anyone willing to flesh "Guise of Unlife" (and hopefully more) out a bit more for us?
I am attempting to find uses for these two feats. I'm not concerned with critiquing them, as much as I truly hope to find some application for their powers.
However, I can't seem to envision when either is superior to just using the prerequisite Channel Smite itself.
I imagine Lingering Smite might provoke concentration checks each round, due to ongoing damage, but if the target is still up, wouldn't I be attacking it anyway (and thus forcing the same checks)? While the damage buff is (d6s to d8s), spreading the damage over as many rounds seems less helpful than a single blast at full strength. While damage-over-time is helpful in games like World of Warcraft, I'm not certain I see how such is useful in Pathfinder.
Likewise, Greater Channel Smite splits up my channel damage for each of my iterative attacks. The only use I currently see is to let each attack hopefully bypass particularly high damage reduction. However, if that was the case, wouldn't I still be better off with one large blast on my first attack? Is the presumption that, since missed attacks don't count against the pool, should the first attack fail due to some unforeseen power I can still benefit from the damage boost on following attacks?
I understand there is a sizable population that do not like these feats at all, perhaps for the above reasons. Acknowledging that from the onset, are there any uses for the above that might overcome these alleged deficiencies?
Can a Zealot Vigilante with the "Channel Energy" talent take feats that require the "Channel Energy class feature?"
Is that requirement different from "Ability to channel energy," as listed under Alignment Channel?
More specifically, can a Zealot with "Channel Energy" take Quick Channel and Channel Smite?
Would anyone mind sharing a bit more about the Harsh Judgment vigilante talent for Zealots?
How many times per day can it be used? Which judgments are included? How many judgments are included? At what rate (if any) do they scale?
I'm working on a Zealot for PFS, so the information is greatly appreciated!
So, is there consensus regarding my concerns for the Zealot listed above?
If so, is there any route around those concerns? Is there a way of building a Zealot to play to its strengths?
For instance, is Smite necessary? Are the other talents solid enough to provide a mechanical base, should a character concept still fit a Vigilante Zealot best (over against the Inquisitor or Warpriest)?
First and foremost, the guide is a great resource thus far. Thank you for it.
I think the comments on the Zealot seem correct. The MAD nature of the Zealot makes it difficult to really make it competitive, when the same (or substantially close to) character concept can be mechanically expressed by the Inquisitor or the Warpriest.
I'm wanting to make an "undercover" enforcer of Pharasma. He'd maintain a public persona of polite pillar of the communuity, while spending his nights hunting down necromancers and the undead. Black robes, mask in the shape of either a gargoyle or skull, dagger as weapon of choice (given Pharasma's "Deific Obedience," the "Weapon of the Chosen" feat tree, and just for the sake of style).
Yet, while this sounds like Vigilante should be the class best suited to supporting the concept, I keep having to consider an Exorcist Inquisitor or (less likely) a Cult Leader Warpriest. Each can support the concept in ways as robust as the Zealot Vigilante, while in some key areas offering even more diverse options.
I really want to like the Zealot. I think the archetype has immense potential. Really, keying "Zealot Smite" to Wisdom would be a big step. As it is, do others agree that it seems somewhat lackluster in its current form, especially given the niche it seems intended to fill (presumably over against the Inquisitor and Warpriest)?
By the way, if I'm reading this correctly, the combination of the Toilsome Chant dwarf spell and the Ringleader Bard archetype culminates in the following for a 15th level dwarf bard:
* As a swift action, costing a single round of daily bardic performances and a first level spell, the dwarf can give an ally +5 competence bonuses to three different skills
* This ally can also take 10 on these skills, even if stressed or distracted
* These bonuses last for up to 15 hours (one hour/level) or until the first time they are used
This seems strong to me, even if Inspiring Mentor does not interact with the above. Start the day by giving the party pretty substantial bonuses to Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device (or whatever other skills the party finds useful). With a party of five, the daily cost is only five rounds of bardic performance and five 1st level spells cast.
Any thoughts on this? Does this seem nice?
Got my copy. Greatly enjoying the book. Recommend it.
Am I correct in thinking that, thanks to Ultimate Intrigue, Dwarf Bards can now be quite impressive, Charisma penalty be damned?
They have a potential combination starting at 3rd level of the Inspire Competence bardic performance + Inspiring Mentor feat + Toilsome Chant 1st level bard spell, which seems strong.
Could a few of you take a look at these three items copied below and let me know if I'm correct in thinking that could provide a pretty helpful and versatile party bonus?
Or, rather, will the spell still only affect one member of the party, regardless of the feat's expansion of the bardic performance benefit? Can I cast Toilsome Chant again, without needing to start a new performance?
Combined with this book's new Ringleader archetype, which further expands Inspire Competence's utility, and am I correct in thinking the Dwarf Bard came up a good bit with this book? Even if Toilsome Chant doesn't interact substantively with Inspiring Mentor, does the spell augment the Ringleader's abilities?
Here are the write-ups:
* INSPIRE COMPETENCE (Su):
Certain uses of this ability are infeasible, such as Stealth, and may be disallowed at the GM's discretion. A bard can't inspire competence in himself. inspire competence relies on audible components.
* INSPIRING MENTOR:
Prerequisites: Cha 13, inspire competence bardic performance.
Benefit: Inspire competence now affects all allies within 30 feet who can hear your performance, as long as they are attempting the skill you’ve selected.
* TOILSOME CHANT:
Casting Time see text
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
You can cast this spell as part of the action to begin an inspire competence bardic performance. The benefit of inspire competence persists for as long as is necessary to complete the target's next skill check using the chosen skill (up to a maximum of 1 hour per caster level), even if you cease your bardic performance.
The Consigliere sounds really cool. Is the teamwork sharing ability at 10th level written up like the cavalier's tactician power or is the Consigliere's writeup rather unique to itself?
Can a Consigliere share any teamwork feat possessed? Do allies need to meet prerequisites?
Thinking about finally building a dwarven merchant PFS character with this archetype. Use the "Stoic Negotiator" alternate racial trait, "Cunning Liar" and "Clever Wordplay" traits to key Bluff and Diplomacy off Wisdom and Intelligence.
The best part for this archetype might be its opportunity to buy a Commander's Helm (from Inner Sea Races) to give out even more teamwork feats.
I figure that with the "Paired Opportunist" and "Improved Feint Partner" teamwork feats, a dwarf unchained rogue could be strong mechanically, while being very flavorful and setting appropriate.
Shame rogues don't have proficiency in sword canes...
Anyway, thank you very much for the info thus far, and please do let us know more about the sharing of teamwork feats ability, as well as the ability to aid others to hit the same opponent.
Thank you for the clarification regarding Unchained Rogues. Is that listed in the book itself? Just want to know if I need to bookmark this post, so to have it as reference later.
What is the nature of the other Consigliere powers, in terms of abilities or skills used? At what levels are things gained, especially the teamwork feats and powers?
Can an Unchained Rogue take the Consigliere archetype? I ask because of the "Charmer" talent, which seems normally unavailable to Unchained Rogues.
At what levels are the powers gained? What's the nature of the Diplomacy bluff? Could you/someone share the aid ally ability and the teamwork feat ability?
Quick two questions that I think haven't been asked:
1: Does this book offer a list of suggested Inquisitions for the minor deities, similar to what was provided for the major deities in each Inquisition's original listing?
2: Does this book offer suggested archetypes for each minor deity, similar to the listings for major deities in "Inner Sea Gods"?
While I'm particularly interested in further info on Hanspur, I'm curious if all the deities received such treatment.
Just wondering what people think of the Cardinal in comparison to the already available Cloistered Cleric archetype?
In terms of outcomes, the Cardinal gains Bluff and Intimidate over against the Cloistered Cleric, while the latter gains Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), and Knowledge (nature).
While the Cardinal gains an additional two skill points per level, the Cloistered Cleric gains a bonus equal to half class level on all Knowledge checks, plus a few other (admittedly minor) benefits to occasionally relevant situations (saves vs. symbols, aid another checks, Scribe Scroll feat, etc.).
In terms of costs, though, I'm not certain which is pays more for their trade-off. Both only gain one domain, so that's a wash. Both lose Medium Armor Proficiency, with the Cloistered Cleric also losing proficiency with shields and several weapons. On the other hand, the Cardinal loses more points of actual BAB.
Yet, it seems spellcasting is where both archetypes get hit most. Both only gain access to a single domain, so that's a wash between them. However, while the Cloistered Cleric loses a spell per level, the Cardinal loses spontaneous cure spells, which seems like a bigger deal, given the Cleric's usual (if cliched) role as party healer.
What does everyone think about comparisons of the two? Granted, the Cloistered Cleric is the more "knowledge-monkey" of the options, while the Cardinal is the more "party face" option, but are both equally beneficial to a "skills based" cleric build?
What (if anything) does each provide, functionally exclusive to itself, that the other does not? Are there more substantive avenues for play provided by the Cardinal that I am seemingly not seeing, which the Cloistered Cleric did not already, adequately address?
Any movement on this topic? Anyone aware of any new guidance that might be relevant to such things?
Interested in playing this archetype as a cleric of Hanspur, traveling the rivers, so feedback would be helpful.
Is there a duration to the ability's use, or is it operative (potentially over days, weeks, months, etc.) until a different group is targeted?
I recommend giving Abadar a chance, if you're going for the Monster Tactician.
Mechanically, a human Monster Tactician can take Abadar's feat, "Divine Dignity," at 1st level. This feat allows its possessor to cast three harmless or domain divine spells per day without provoking attacks of opportunity from the casting.
The Monster Tactician can already cast Summon Monster as a standard action. This means that, at the start of combat, Abadar's inquisitor could move up to the enemy as the move action, cast Summon Monster as the standard action and position summoned creatures for flanking bonuses (flanking being crucial to several teamwork feats), all without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Thematically, I'm playing mine as an Andoran census-taker and keeper of the register. The concept of the stalwart citizen, flush with zeal and certain that the truly free are never alone... I really rather like that concept.
So, give Abadar a look. I think it might work well. Very much interested in your thoughts, too.
Completely understand and I very much appreciate the feedback and the outreach to your playerbase. Thank you for both!
Regarding design and vision for the product, are the concepts I raised interesting and/or reasonable, in light of future projects and supplements?
I understand that the above are not particularly flashy, especially when compared to combat options, expansion of magic systems, or even social skill/intrigue development. Further, in addition to providing us a fun and wonderful hobby, you and your associates are in business and must allocate resources to what the market demands... I which I expect is the above, far before some of the other options I suggested.
Nonetheless, I do hope there is a place for some additional focus on the above in future supplements, spread out perhaps over the course of books so to ensure market viability. I think there is something to be said for the "everyday hero" who, while perhaps swept up on fantastic adventures, brings a skill/feat/trait set of the everyman to whatever task might lay at hand.
In addition to the dashing swashbuckler, the noble cleric, and the cunning warrior, I would simply welcome the opportunity to more thoroughly resource the more humbler adventurer archetypes/concepts. With a bit more setting information and mechanics support, I think that could be very, very fun... as well as uniquely marketable.
Does any of this resonate or make sense? Do you have any thoughts on the matter, whether in concept or in reference to future products (that you might be able to plug now... :) )?
In response to your question about desires for the book, I think any reply probably requires both a setting response and a mechanics response.
In terms of the setting, I would really like to hear more about how trade routes work (and/or fail to work) in Golarion, so that black markets and underworld channels become necessary for certain goods and services. How do the various nation-states conduct and enable trade, in the midst of their wars, various supernatural calamities, and other fantastic issues. Do dragons simply sweep down upon caravans... or do they, too, involve themselves in commerce and trade? How does a dwarven market differ from an elven one? How are the racial and alignment characteristics of each population manifest in how each respectively employs, feeds, clothes, and otherwise maintains its people? How do various biases, cultural values, and insufficiencies of supply produce black markets that meet otherwise unmet demands?
In terms of the mechanics, please provide traits, archetypes, and feats that engage non-combat, non-explicitly social skills. Appraise, Linguistics, Profession... all of these could use more options, in order to round out characters that are merchants, tradesmen, bureaucrats, engineers, civil servants, and all the other "heroes" that keep civilization going... as well as their counterparts on the other side of the law.
For instance, and to my current knowledge, there is no +2/+4 at 10 ranks Feat option for Appraise and Linguistics. Something that simple could go a long way to enabling more diverse character types, as higher Appraise and Linguistics scores now have some relevance given recent Skill Unlock options out of Occult Adventures and Pathfinder Unchained.
So, if we could have more focus on how the economies of the various populations work, along with mechanics that enable play within those structures, I think this book could be very unique and quite essential to your playerbase.
I'm not quite certain which ridiculous mental image is more relevant to this conceptually wonderful and mechanically well-crafted spell:
* Upon a critical hit, ahem, "MONEY, SON!"
* Any reference to the gold goblin in the Diablo games.
As for the spell itself, I actually like it best for Unchained Rogues that take the Major Magic Rogue Talent. Being able to access dependable ranged weaponry, several times a day, all without having to carry bows/crossbows and the like, is quite nice and flavorful. It is not overly powerful, while conceivably useful in several different contexts.
I could imagine myself having to seriously consider choosing between this and "Protection from Evil" and the other longstanding 1st level options. All in all, well done!