Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Intrigue (PFRPG)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Intrigue (PFRPG)
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Words Cut Deep

In the right setting, a single scathing word can prove deadlier than a poisoned dagger. Behind the scenes of heroic battles and magical realms lies a seething underbelly of danger and deception. This world of intrigue holds endless possibilities for adventure, as heroes duel with words instead of steel, plot daring heists, and engage in battles of wills against relentless nemeses. A high-stakes game of shadows and secrets is yours to master—if you have the wits!

Whether the heroes are taming the blood-soaked back alleys of their favorite metropolis or jockeying for the queen's favor alongside highborn nobles, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue is an invaluable companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue includes:

  • The vigilante, a new character class that lives two lives—that of an unassuming member of the community, and a cloaked crusader with his own agenda!
  • New archetypes for alchemists, bards, druids, hunters, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, slayers, spiritualists, and more!
  • New feats and magic items for characters of all sorts, granting mastery of street-smart combat, impenetrable disguises, and misdirection.
  • Dozens of spells to manipulate tense social settings, whether to reveal adversaries' secrets or hide the truth.
  • A complete system of influence, providing new goals and rewards to challenge players and link their fortunes to nonplayer characters and organizations.
  • Systems and advice to help Game Masters introduce a variety of new encounters into their games­—daring heists, extended pursuits, and tense searches for buried secrets.
  • Rules for social combat and verbal duels, allowing characters to use words as weapons to sway hearts and humiliate foes.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-826-7

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A Must-Have for Heavy RP Games

5/5

Okay, let's get into Ultimate Intrigue! As the title implies, the purpose of this book is to help flesh out more subtle elements of the game: things like spreading rumors, rallying a crowd, stealing secrets, and other classic cloak-and-dagger stuff. I've used bits and pieces of it in previous campaigns, but read through it carefully (and incorporated a fair bit of it) for my current Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign, as that adventure path is designed around urban political strife. Boiled down to brass tacks, the book is a 256 page hardcover comprised of six chapters. The full-colour artwork is very strong throughout, and the cover is great (though Merisiel's legs are like three times longer than her torso!). There's a very short two-page introduction that summarises each chapter--which is what I'm going to do anyway.

Chapter 1 is "Classes" (60 pages). The big deal here is a new base case, the Vigilante. The concept is that the character has both a normal (social) identity and a masked identity, with certain class options only working while in the associated guise. There are also several safeguards to help keep anyone from figuring out that Bruce Wayne is really Batman. I have a Vigilante character in Pathfinder Society, and one of my players runs one in Curse of the Crimson Throne. I think the class is perfect for an urban campaign mostly set in a single city (especially with lots room for intrigue), but it doesn't work as well with the more traditional "travelling adventuring party" campaign. It's a bit too obvious when five newcomers arrive in town, only for one of them to "disappear" and a new costumed avenger show up. I know there are also some gamers who dislike what can seem like the awkward introduction of comic book super heroes into their fantasy role-playing. For me, I think the concept works well--though as I said, only in particular types of campaigns.

A large chunk of the chapter is devoted to new archetypes for other classes. More specifically, alchemists, bards, cavaliers, druids, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, skalds, spiritualists, swashbucklers, and vigilantes get some love. Frankly, a lot of the archetypes are fairly forgettable, but there are exceptions--for example, a Daring General Cavalier would be great in military campaigns, the Dandy Ranger could be really useful in an urban campaign, and a couple of the vigilante archetypes are perfect if you want to play the Hulk or Spider-Man. Although the rogue archetypes aren't very good, there are several excellent rogue talents that focus on making the character harder to track through divination, etc. It's worth nothing that this book came out during the period when the hardcover line was still setting-neutral, so there won't be any Golarion-specific flavour with the archetypes (for better or worse depending on your preferences).

Chapter 2 is "Feats" (24 pages). There's something like 110 new feats in the chapter, and probably something for everyone. Given the book's theme, many of the feats are related to sneaking around, hiding and disguising spells, stealing stuff, making plans, figuring out when you're being to lied to, etc. A few that I particularly like include Brilliant Planner (giving you the chance to have just what you need just when you need it), Call Truce (giving a slim chance to actually end combat peacefully when its underway), and Drunkard's Recovery (silly but fun). A couple of important feats are Conceal Spell (which hides the pesky manifestations that spells create in Pathfinder) and Fencing Grace (adding Dex to damage with rapiers, a favourite of swashbucklers everywhere). Overall, I thought the options presented were well-written and plausible in terms of desirability.

Chapter 3 is "Mastering Intrigue" (68 pages). This is probably the most important chapter in the book for GMs. It offers tons of useful advice, as well as clarification on some tricky game mechanics, to help run intrigue-based games. The pages about how common magic spells can be handled while still preserving mysteries, secrets, and misdirection is pure gold. The chapter also introduces seven new rules sub-systems, any or all of which can be incorporated into a campaign to flesh out certain aspects of gameplay. "Influence" is a sub-system that deepens the process of persuading a person or organisation to support you. Instead of a simple single Dipomacy check, PCs need to make certain skill checks to learn a person's interests and weaknesses, and then other skill checks to take advantage of what they've learned. The process operates through multiple phases of tracked successes and failures, and can be tied to mechanical favours and benefits. It's become a very popular facet of many Pathfinder Society scenarios, and I think it's a pretty clever way to handle things--though it can be a bit clunky at first. "Heists" is a sub-system that contains some excellent advice to GMs on how to structure things so players don't obsess over unimportant trivia and are willing to violate that old canard of "don't split the party." "Infiltration" contains some quick advice, but that's about it. "Leadership" deepens the feat of the same name, adding lots of rules for interacting with other sub-systems both in this book and in Ultimate Campaign. I'm personally still not persuaded that the Leadership feat chain is a good inclusion to the game. "Nemeses" is all about adding a recurring villain; I think it's trying to systematise something that could be handled just fine without it. Though there are some fun suggestions on evil plots to foil. "Pursuit" is a little like the Chase sub-system from the GameMastery Guide but stretched out over hours and days cross-country instead of in minutes through alleyways. I could imagine using it. "Research" is probably my favourite of the sub-systems, and one I've used in multiple campaigns. In essence, it gives the PCs a reason to use things like libraries and archives by giving them bonuses to their Knowledge checks, but then makes gaining different thresholds of information the result of multiple successful checks. Overall, a great chapter--I wish the Influence and Research sub-systems had been in the Core Rulebook, because they really add a lot to the non-combat aspects of the game.

Chapter 4 is "Social Combat" (25 pages). The idea here is to present GMs with options on how to handle social conflicts--things like debates, trials, cutting repartee, etc. There's also a "verbal duels" sub-system. I'm just not sure about it--it's something I'd have to see in practice. However, a really useful part of the chapter is advice to the GM on how to handle the various social skills in the game--Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive--as well as the intrigue skills like Disguise, Perception, and Stealth. The advice here is excellent, and I just stopped in the middle of this review to reread it.

Chapter 5 is "Spells" (40 pages). You can judge from the length of the chapter that there's a ton of new spells, and every spellcasting class will find something. One of the fun things the chapter introduces is a new "ruse" descriptor for spells, which means the spell is easily mistaken for another even by observers trained in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana). It's a good way to mislead folks who have played way too much Pathfinder. There are some really clever spells in this section, with a couple of my favourites including false resurrection (instead of bringing back a soul, you stuff a demon into the body!) and the hilarious shamefully overdressed.

Chapter 6 is "Gear and Magic Items" (22 pages). There are some new mundane pieces of equipment (weapons like the cool wrist dart launcher, alchemical items, etc.) but most of the chapter is new magic items with an intrigue theme. The one that really stuck out at me was the launcher of distraction, which is perfect for assassination attempts because it makes it seem like the attack is coming from somewhere else.

Overall, I think Ultimate Intrigue is an excellent book. It's pretty much a must-have in my opinion for any campaign that's going to involve a lot of role-playing or that moves beyond traditional dungeon crawling and wilderness encounters. Even readers not involved in "intrigue campaigns" per se are sure to find plenty of material they can use.


1/5

Don't get me wrong I love Paizo books, I love their work, and I'm proud to own almost all of their publications.

However, Ultimate Intrigue is the one book I regret buying. It's even more than that, it's the one book i regret they ever published.

We need rules and systems, ok. We need a magic system because magic isn't a real thing. We need a combat system otherwise playing with your grilfriend become home abuse. But we don't need a social system because it's a ROLEPLAYING game. Either you want intrigue heavy campaign and you roleplay them, or you want to dungeon crawl or investigate (that's fine too) and you don't play intrigues. You can even do both and it's great.

Aside from that massive problem, the book suffers from "a turn normal actions into feats/class ability" syndrome. I can't count the number of time where players made me fighters to wizards or rogues with a dual identity. We didn't need the Vigilante, and still don't. And I loved when wizard use to get clever and ask for linguistics/bluff roll to blend a spell into a phrase. Now you need a feat for it. Thanks, Ultimate Intrigue. If that was not enough, some of these nonsense feat are built in feat tax chains.

But the one thing I hate the most about this book is the stupid FAQ it bestowed upon us to promote itself (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tza). That makes a whole school of magic (illusion) utterly useless, and destroys a lot of others (enchantment).

Now I know I can just refuse to use it. But i use to love pathfinder for the clarity and perfect sense with out need to houserule much.

Now it's gone.


I'm tired of paizo trying to stuff this book down our face

1/5

If I was playing a home campaign this book might be more fitting,

For society play this verbal debate and other ideas for this book really bog down the game play. I like social aspect of games and role playing but as I said society play it slows the game way down to try and get people up to snuff on the mechanics


An amazing new class in a hit and miss supplement

4/5

So, Ultimate Intrigue took a long time for me to come to a complete opinion on.

The Vigilante class introduced in this book is, in my opinion, easily the best non-spellcasting class Paizo has ever created. It breaks up its social options and combat options in such a way that you have a great character able to participate in all areas of the game without having to choose whether you want to be competent in combat or in the myriad other facets of the game like exploration, social encounters, etc. It has deep and well-designed talents that allow you to pick any of a variety of different ways to participate in combat, with or without weapons, and numerous tools for allowing players to influence the story with safe houses, contacts, and more.

At PAX Prime 2016 I had the opportunity to visit Paizo's Pathfinder demo area and play their pregenerated vigilante character. I honestly didn't expect it to go terribly well; after all, the vigilante is a class built around balancing two identities and moving between different social strata, so you'd think that this would require a more controlled environment where you know the other players in advance and have time to plan out how your character fits into the game world with your GM ahead of time, right? Turns out, I was wrong. The vigilante class is well-crafted enough that even while playing a 1st level pregen I was able to easily deal with situations in and out of combat, and it took me about 60 seconds of conversation to establish with the group that I had a secret identity they were privy to and might need them to cover for my character from time to time if he needed to swap identities. It didn't hurt matters that the only downside to anyone learning a vigilante's secret identity is that, well, they know his or her secret identity. You can go all Tony Stark if you want, announce that you are Iron Man, and carry on as normal. Very few of the vigilante's abilities actually require you to maintain truly secret identities, and the only real hit you take is that you're a bit easier to find by magical means (though even this can be addressed with clever use of the Safe House Social Talent).

The book also elaborates on the intent behind numerous spells that often prove problematic for GMs in games where they want to have a focus on gritty investigation of mystery, such as the various detect spells, speak with dead, etc.

I think my biggest disappointments with the book, and the reason I can't give it 5 stars, lie in the feats and archetypes. I'll start with the feats, and a bit about why I see most of them as representative of missed opportunities.

To start with, Pathfinder's skill system is heavily dated. When Paizo brought it over from 3.5, they combined a few extraneous skills, but otherwise did little to update things, meaning the core area of the rules covering everything in the game that isn't casting spells or hitting things is now well over a decade old and out of date. Several skills don't even actually work, or work well, as written, have interactions you're just supposed to kind of assume or make up (Ride and Handle Animal are a mess, Stealth requires one to check out FAQs and blog posts online to use as intended, Bluff and Diplomacy have more than a few vague areas and inconsistencies, etc.), so what better book to address, update, and expand these core components of the game than a book about playing skill and intrigue heavy campaigns? Unfortunately, Paizo chose not to go that route, instead relying on feats to stretch skills over their gaps and issues, leading to many of the feats in the this book providing skill uses that I've seen GMs at hundreds of tables houserule as basic functions of those skills to begin with. Instead of formalizing intuitive uses of existing skills into their basic function, they added a feat tax to allow characters to do things many people already thought they could do. While there is a section in the book going over several of the vague areas in a few key skills, these are primarily common sense clarifications instead of the full address the skills could have used.

The archetypes, like many Paizo hardcovers, are all over the place. Some of them are interesting and dynamic, like the Masked Performer bard archetype, some show an attempt at embodying a cool and modern concept but fail to achieve that concept in the actual execution, like the Magical Child vigilante archetype, and some are just plain bad, so obviously terribly designed that you almost wonder if the person who wrote them has ever actually played Pathfinder, like the Brute vigilante archetype.

Now, don't let the above wall of negativity mislead you; there is a lot of great stuff in this book, including perhaps the most inspired and well-crafted class Paizo has ever produced, a class that introduces really interesting design concepts, plays with components of the class chassis we haven't seen classes treat as quite so malleable before, and is a genuinely fun and interesting class to play in and of itself. Despite many of the feats ranging from useless to frustrating, there are still quite a few that are interesting and viable, and while the archetypes are very hit or miss, that's generally true of Paizo books in general and probably shouldn't be held against this one in particular.

My final verdict on Ultimate Intrigue is 4 stars, and a strong recommendation to pick it up, if for no other reason than to add the Vigilante class to your game (though there definitely are other reasons to add this book to your collection).


Pathfinder presents Batman!

4/5

No seriously. The vigilante class is freaking batman. Look at the art for chapter one and for the character. HE'S BATMAN. Of course they also have archetypes if you want to make Hulk, Sailor Moon, even He-Man. With the archetypes from other books the list goes on.
My favorite part, and I cannot wait to test this properly in a game, is the social combat. It works a lot like playing craps or roulette. You get a pool of Determination points which you use to place a bet then you roll off with your social skills check! Seriously it sounds like lots of fun!


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
London Duke wrote:

@Skeld, thanks for all the spoilers, you are the best. :-)

Can someone shed some light on:

Warlord (Skald)
Instigator (Skald)
Velvet Blade (Slayer)

Also I would love a general feel for the combat potential for the Vigilante. Are there pretty clear trap options? How flexible is it? What Tier would you put it? Are the non-casting options as strong as the casting archetypes? Could you imagine a party made entirely of Vigilantes?

The warlord is a leader who controls his allies and minions through fear and intimidation.

The instigator stirs up people to action without controlling them -- the classic rabble rouser.

The velvet blade mingles with the aristocracy and occasionally kills them when nobody is looking.


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David knott 242 wrote:


The velvet blade mingles with the aristocracy and occasionally kills them when nobody is looking.

:D

That made me laugh.


30th?? Thats a long wait...

Care to shed some light on the hunter archtypes? And which classes get wildshape archtypes?


Do the warlocks mystic bolts still work with conductive?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
Do the warlocks mystic bolts still work with conductive?

I think it has the same wording as the playtest but does have a part that says you need to have a free hand to make the bolt. It is a supernatural ability so that part is still good.

Edit:
Just check the playtest and it has the same wording.
So, if it work in the playtest it should still work now.


Xethik wrote:
Skeld wrote:
djones wrote:

Oh, phantom thief sounds intriguing, if you'll excuse the pun.

Without going into mechanics, what's the concept of the archetype?

** spoiler omitted **

-Skeld

Oh, hrm. Not what I expected but definitely cool. Sounds like a mix of Vigilante for the Rogue. Thanks!

Unrelated, but is the Fencing Grace feat essentially an errata to the Fencing Grace feat from Advanced Class Origins?

Yes, good question. Did they make their own iconic character Jirelle illegal, by also prohibiting her from using a buckler?

Liberty's Edge

magnuskn wrote:
Yes, good question. Did they make their own iconic character Jirelle illegal, by also prohibiting her from using a buckler?

Not if they used the same text as Slashing Grace, which would be my bet for how it works.


Protoman wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
Does the reprint of Fencing grace have any changes?
The Fencing Grace feat has the same limitations as Slashing Grace: You must have a hand free, no TWF or flurry of blows, and no spell combat.

Oh, for... did they at least make it bit less restrictive, i.e. did they allow bucklers or that you can use a weapon in the off-hand, but it simply doesn't receive the DEX-to-damage bonus, instead of also denying that bonus to the main hand?

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Not if they used the same text as Slashing Grace, which would be my bet for how it works.

Yes, that is also my fear. Slashing Grace was vastly overnerfed. They should have just denied the DEX-to-damage bonus to the off-hand and bucklers should have been allowed, since they are (literally, in the case of Jirelle) iconic to the Swashbuckler class.

Liberty's Edge

magnuskn wrote:
Yes, that is also my fear. Slashing Grace was vastly overnerfed. They should have just denied the DEX-to-damage bonus to the off-hand and bucklers should have been allowed, since they are (literally, in the case of Jirelle) iconic to the Swashbuckler class.

Huh? The current version of Slashing Grace allows bucklers. Bucklers don't occupy a hand.


Brew Bird wrote:
The absence of a core RPG line Dex to damage option for that weapon is criminal, in my opinion. I'm hoping the "agile" enchantment gets reprinted.

Hahaha, don't worry, if it ever does, I'm pretty sure that they will put overnerfed restrictions on that one, too, unless of course you are forced into a miniscule archetype which contains the words "dervish". :-/

Barachiel Shina wrote:
It'd be nice for them to explain WHY when they make such controversial decisions.

As if. If people question the inexplicable decisions they clam up and refuse to answer. :(

Ross Byers wrote:

Oh, by all means, voice your opinions. My point was that I don't see the point in arguing over the justification and the decision instead of just the decision itself.

This is the internet - where people are happy to pick apart an argument point-by-point, and attack the weakest, most-poorly-worded point, possibly out of context, as if it were the entire argument.

That is a terrible argument. Giving explanations to decisions gives context to them. The developers shouldn't clam up, like they often do, when their controversial decisions come up, but instead offer a rationale and accept feedback.

Slashing Grace was vastly overnerfed and doing the same to Fencing Grace makes Jirelle suddenly have a terrible build. Yes, full DEX-to-damage for TWF is too good, IMO. I get to see that first-hand in my RotRL campaign with our TWF Urban Barbarian. But not allowing anything in the off-hand, nor bucklers, kills so many possible iconic Swashbuckler builds.

The best solution would (pretty obviously, IMO) to allow off-hand weapons, but deny them the DEX-to-damage bonus. Also, allow bucklers, because they are so iconic to Swashbucklers. If the Magus is a concern, make an exception for it.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Yes, that is also my fear. Slashing Grace was vastly overnerfed. They should have just denied the DEX-to-damage bonus to the off-hand and bucklers should have been allowed, since they are (literally, in the case of Jirelle) iconic to the Swashbuckler class.
Huh? The current version of Slashing Grace allows bucklers. Bucklers don't occupy a hand.

I was pretty sure that someone of the devs had said that bucklers also count as something which "occupies the hand". If that isn't the case and I am wrong, half my objections are gone and I abjectly apologize for my wrongness. No, seriously.

However, I still think you could let characters use the other hand and just deny the off-hand DEX-to-damage and it would be totally fine.


I just want to have some variety with dexterity-based builds that doesn't involve dipping 3 levels in Unchained Rogue or going Sarenite. [weapon] Grace doesn't do this for Magi. Paizo has made it clear they're simultaneously open to and terrified by Dex-To-Damage. Nothing more need be said.

Liberty's Edge

magnuskn wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
The absence of a core RPG line Dex to damage option for that weapon is criminal, in my opinion. I'm hoping the "agile" enchantment gets reprinted.
Hahaha, don't worry, if it ever does, I'm pretty sure that they will put overnerfed restrictions on that one, too, unless of course you are forced into a miniscule archetype which contains the words "dervish".

Then you'd be wrong.

It was reprinted in AP 100 a few months ago. No nerf.

Quote:
Slashing Grace was vastly overnerfed and doing the same to Fencing Grace makes Jirelle suddenly have a terrible build. Yes, full DEX-to-damage for TWF is too good, IMO. I get to see that first-hand in my RotRL campaign with our TWF Urban Barbarian. But not allowing anything in the off-hand, nor bucklers, kills so many possible iconic Swashbuckler builds.

It has already been pointed out, several times, that slashing/fencing grace do not prohibit bucklers. The text of the buckler states that it allows the hand to be used for various other things and there is no contradictory FAQ that I am aware of. Jirelle's build is completely unchanged.


Azouth wrote:

I think it has the same wording as the playtest but does have a part that says you need to have a free hand to make the bolt. It is a supernatural ability so that part is still good.

Edit:
Just check the playtest and it has the same wording.
So, if it work in the playtest it should still work now.

Brilliant to hear, I was worried they'd close it off.


magnuskn wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Yes, that is also my fear. Slashing Grace was vastly overnerfed. They should have just denied the DEX-to-damage bonus to the off-hand and bucklers should have been allowed, since they are (literally, in the case of Jirelle) iconic to the Swashbuckler class.
Huh? The current version of Slashing Grace allows bucklers. Bucklers don't occupy a hand.
I was pretty sure that someone of the devs had said that bucklers also count as something which "occupies the hand". If that isn't the case and I am wrong, half my objections are gone and I abjectly apologize for my wrongness. No, seriously.

This FAQ should reassure you on the buckler issue.

FAQ wrote:
Slashing Grace does not allow most shields, but bucklers work because they don’t occupy the hand. ...


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Darctos wrote:
Care to shed some light on the hunter archtypes? And which classes get wildshape archtypes?

The Courtly Hunter has a smarter animal companion that has the intelligence of a familiar of equal level and that can assume a Tiny form. This archetype is designed to function in cities rather than the wilderness.

The Roof Runner is basically what you would expect from its name. They give up medium armor proficiency and some wilderness oriented abilities to move easily across the tops of buildings.

Neither of these archetypes gain wild shape abilities. In fact, I could not find any archetypes that granted any wild shape ability to any class that did not already have it -- a couple of Druid archetypes altered or replaced that ability.


Bucklers not occupying the hand is just a weird bit in Pathfinder, its sort of like if you read Ultimate Combat's description of how a revolver works.


The Greater Break spell states in the block that it does not allow a Fortitude save. But the spell description states that objects do receive a Fortitude save. I am guessing the stat block is wrong. The original Break spell does allow Fortitude save and is mentioned in both entries.

My question is, I thought nonmagical unattended objects don't make Fortitude saves? I take it the saving throw entry to mean if the items are either possessed by a creature or if they are magical?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

In the alchemist spell list on page 192 it list the spell Voluminous Vocabulary as 5th but in the spell it is 3rd. I think it should be 3rd as the other class have it at that level.


Reading over the Eyebiter archetype, I feel I must have missed something, how do we determine the Wisdom and Charisma of the Eyeball familiar?


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Renegade Paladin wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Quandary wrote:
To be fair, RP's stance is pretty much identical to what James Jacobs/Paizo's stance has been up to this point.
I find it strange how other classes are allowed to have archetypes that changes the concept but somehow if you make a paladin archetype that makes it not the horrible cliche they're not real paladins.

Sure you can! Just call it something else. Note that Tyrant is in the same book and I haven't had a peep of complaint about that; in fact I'm rather excited. Had they cribbed Unearthed Arcana and called it "paladin of tyranny," though, I'd have blown a gasket. :P Antipaladin is a ham-handed design (there should be more to a champion of Evil than just inverting the paladin, if nothing else because offensive abilities and inflicting status effects are inherently more powerful than cures and removing status effects), but that's a separate problem.

The problem is that words have meanings, and titles especially do. You don't call any schlub who took a first aid course Doctor, you don't call a county councilman Senator, and you don't call some random guy with a sword out for himself a paladin or a knight (and if the setting you're playing in is a chivalric and aristocratic society, heaven help you if you called him Sir). If you want a CG-aligned champion of freedom class, Liberator or something would be appropriate, and I would totally play one, especially if it had abilities that appropriately reflect championing freedom rather than a direct port of the paladin's skill set. But if you start calling any champion class of every alignment "paladin of X," the word ceases to have meaning, or at least meaning beyond "can smite people he disagrees with."

Except by that definition, all of the Paladins in Golarion are imposters since none of them were one of the 12 foremost warriors in Charlemagne's court.


Did the Witch class received a firearms-type Archetype in this book?

Silver Crusade

Berselius wrote:
Did the Witch class received a firearms-type Archetype in this book?

Nope, no Witch archetypes, firearms enabled or otherwise, in this book.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Berselius wrote:
Did the Witch class received a firearms-type Archetype in this book?

They do get a good amount of spells.

edit: what Rysky said.

Silver Crusade

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Azouth wrote:
Berselius wrote:
Did the Witch class received a firearms-type Archetype in this book?

They do get a good amount of spells.

edit: what Rysky said.

Yeah, false resurrection is nasty!

No firearm related spells though.


Does the Vox Mesmerist have new "bold stares" ??? or does it just add a verbal component to any existing bold stares you take ?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
nighttree wrote:
Does the Vox Mesmerist have new "bold stares" ??? or does it just add a verbal component to any existing bold stares you take ?

It only changes the way hypnotic stare work, doesn't change bold stare at all.


Gisher wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Yes, that is also my fear. Slashing Grace was vastly overnerfed. They should have just denied the DEX-to-damage bonus to the off-hand and bucklers should have been allowed, since they are (literally, in the case of Jirelle) iconic to the Swashbuckler class.
Huh? The current version of Slashing Grace allows bucklers. Bucklers don't occupy a hand.
I was pretty sure that someone of the devs had said that bucklers also count as something which "occupies the hand". If that isn't the case and I am wrong, half my objections are gone and I abjectly apologize for my wrongness. No, seriously.

This FAQ should reassure you on the buckler issue.

FAQ wrote:
Slashing Grace does not allow most shields, but bucklers work because they don’t occupy the hand. ...

Excellent, then I apologize for that part. I still think the FAQ should be amended to allow for weapons in the off-hand, only that they don't receive the DEX-to-damage benefit.


Rysky wrote:
Azouth wrote:
Berselius wrote:
Did the Witch class received a firearms-type Archetype in this book?

They do get a good amount of spells.

edit: what Rysky said.

Yeah, false resurrection is nasty!

Is that the one that brings someone back, but with their actual life force/soul replaced by a demon or devil?

May I get information on just what level it is? Part of me hopes that it's lower level than the normal resurrection spell, so that the caster can con someone into accepting it for their deceased loved one and then surprise them with a demon?

Dark Archive

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Yes, that's the one that replaces the life force with an Advanced Shadow Demon.

False Resurrection is Cleric 7 / Shaman 8 / Witch 8.

Shadow Lodge

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Salafax wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
That said, Arachnid Wildsoul is awesome! Can build Spiderman, or maybe Spiderdrow...
Doc -- This sounds really interesting. Can you expand a bit on what makes the Arachnid Wildsoul so awesome? Thanks!

Np and sorry about the delay. So the long and short of it is there are vigilantes who use the power of wild animals to fight. These "Wildsouls" must pick an animal from a tiny list and it grants you powers based on it. One of these is arachnid which, in short, lets you be Spiderman. You get Spidey Sense at second, web shooters at 6th, wall crawling and web shooting ropes at 12th, and full web swinging at 18th. Note I'm not a fan of the delay to get some of these abilities but it has been my biggest pleasant surprise so far from the archetypes presented so far for the vigilante and is far better than the other 2 Wildsouls options and the Ursine one in particular (it's pretty bad).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
doc the grey wrote:


Np and sorry about the delay. So the long and short of it is there are vigilantes who use the power of wild animals to fight. These "Wildsouls" must pick an animal from a tiny list and it grants you powers based on it. One of these is arachnid which, in short, lets you be Spiderman. You get Spidey Sense at second, web shooters at 6th, wall crawling and web shooting ropes at 12th, and full web swinging at 18th. Note I'm not a fan of the delay to get some of these abilities but it has been my biggest pleasant surprise so far from the archetypes presented so far for the vigilante and is far better than the other 2 Wildsouls options and the Ursine one in particular (it's pretty bad).

So what are the other "superheroes" in the book? Is there a more comprehensive list? I must admit that, even if I never use it, the adaptation of super hero style characters is pretty cool.

Wildsoul (Arachnid) = Spiderman
Wildsoul (Bird) = Hawkman/Falcon/Angel/etc.
Brute = Hulk

What else? Please, keep selling me on this book!


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doc the grey wrote:
You get Spidey Sense at second, web shooters at 6th, wall crawling and web shooting ropes at 12th, and full web swinging at 18th.

... So by the time you have webswinging everyone already had flight for 11 levels. That's sincerely horrible.


doc the grey wrote:
Salafax wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
That said, Arachnid Wildsoul is awesome! Can build Spiderman, or maybe Spiderdrow...
Doc -- This sounds really interesting. Can you expand a bit on what makes the Arachnid Wildsoul so awesome? Thanks!

Np and sorry about the delay. So the long and short of it is there are vigilantes who use the power of wild animals to fight. These "Wildsouls" must pick an animal from a tiny list and it grants you powers based on it. One of these is arachnid which, in short, lets you be Spiderman. You get Spidey Sense at second, web shooters at 6th, wall crawling and web shooting ropes at 12th, and full web swinging at 18th. Note I'm not a fan of the delay to get some of these abilities but it has been my biggest pleasant surprise so far from the archetypes presented so far for the vigilante and is far better than the other 2 Wildsouls options and the Ursine one in particular (it's pretty bad).

What is so bad about the ursine wildsoul? It was probably my favorite. I don't have the book so I can only go off what's spoiled

Dark Archive

jedi8187 wrote:
What is so bad about the ursine wildsoul? It was probably my favorite. I don't have the book so I can only go off what's spoiled

At will in vigilante identity :

Claws at 2nd level
Bite at 6th level
+1 Natural armor at 12th level (+1 at 16th and 20th)
Bear form at 18th level


Under the spell Instant Fake, I find the description funny mentioning a "suit of chainmail" as an example, which is 40 lbs, but the spell only affects an object of 1 lb/level (best bet is a mithral suit of chainmail at CL 20th).

I take it either the writer intended it to be 10 lbs/level and it got changed, or it's a typo and it's supposed to affect 10 lbs/level and not 1 lb/level.


Ulfhedinn wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
What is so bad about the ursine wildsoul? It was probably my favorite. I don't have the book so I can only go off what's spoiled

At will in vigilante identity :

Claws at 2nd level
Bite at 6th level
+1 Natural armor at 12th level (+1 at 16th and 20th)
Bear form at 18th level

What I'm hearing is, it's not genuinely bad, because a full set of natural attacks from class features is pretty damn nifty, but compared to, say, being Spiderman, it's kind of subpar.


FedoraFerret wrote:
Ulfhedinn wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
What is so bad about the ursine wildsoul? It was probably my favorite. I don't have the book so I can only go off what's spoiled

At will in vigilante identity :

Claws at 2nd level
Bite at 6th level
+1 Natural armor at 12th level (+1 at 16th and 20th)
Bear form at 18th level

What I'm hearing is, it's not genuinely bad, because a full set of natural attacks from class features is pretty damn nifty, but compared to, say, being Spiderman, it's kind of subpar.

That's about my reaction, except as much as I love Spider-man I prefer the natural attack play style.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

Am I wrong to think that ursine wildsoul could create Sir Bearington?

Silver Crusade

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Am I wrong to think that ursine wildsoul could create Sir Bearington?

Do eet.

Shadow Lodge

Ulfhedinn wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:
What is so bad about the ursine wildsoul? It was probably my favorite. I don't have the book so I can only go off what's spoiled

At will in vigilante identity :

Claws at 2nd level
Bite at 6th level
+1 Natural armor at 12th level (+1 at 16th and 20th)
Bear form at 18th level

Homeboy here is underselling it a bit so let me illuminate a bit.

At 2nd you get 2 claw attacks for a d4 at medium, at 6th you get a d4 bite, at 12th you get +1 nat armor that increases to +3 at max by 20th, finally you get to be a bear at 18th. It's just a grizzly bear, has only d6's, and is the only form you can take.

In essence you take 18 levels to do what a changeling druid could do at 5th, an alchemist can do at like 2nd with feral mutagen, and hell the metamorph can do all of it mechanically at second for hours at a time. And for all this you lose your specialization and 4 of your 10 vigilante talents.

Shadow Lodge

Oh is the crit range for the new folding knife a misprint? It seems of that a dagger would have an x2 crit rather than a 19-29/x2.

Silver Crusade

doc the grey wrote:
At 2nd you get 2 claw attacks for a d4 at medium, at 6th you get a d4 bite, at 12th you get +1 nat armor that increases to +3 at max by 20th, finally you get to be a bear at 18th. It's just a grizzly bear, has only d6's, and is the only form you can take.

Doc -- In your opinion, how does this stack up against the Arachnid Wildsoul? Does the arachnid still need a weapon or does he get some sort of special attack? I'm trying to figure out his combat options while I wait for the PDF. Thanks again!

Liberty's Edge

doc the grey wrote:

Homeboy here is underselling it a bit so let me illuminate a bit.

At 2nd you get 2 claw attacks for a d4 at medium, at 6th you get a d4 bite, at 12th you get +1 nat armor that increases to +3 at max by 20th, finally you get to be a bear at 18th. It's just a grizzly bear, has only d6's, and is the only form you can take.

In essence you take 18 levels to do what a changeling druid could do at 5th, an alchemist can do at like 2nd with feral mutagen, and hell the metamorph can do all of it mechanically at second for hours at a time. And for all this you lose your specialization and 4 of your 10 vigilante talents.

I thought you didn't lose your specialization with Wild Soul?

That's what other people said, and I'd expect you to get something at 1st if you did.

Because if you lose specialization, yeah, that sucks. But 3 Talents for an AC buff and 3 Natural attacks isn't bad at all, and the Bear form is a bit crappy, but hey, it's at 18th. Most games don't get there anyway.

Designer

You don't lose your specialization.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
You don't lose your specialization.

Thanks for the info Mark! :)

And yeah, in that case, that sounds reasonable given what I know of how good Vigilante Talents are. Each of those (the claws, bite, and then natural armor) is a bit better than a Feat.


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On a slightly tactical note...Featherweight Darts:Can I use them to deliver potions/infusions to allies, or can they be only used for poisons?


doc the grey wrote:
At 2nd you get 2 claw attacks for a d4 at medium, at 6th you get a d4 bite, at 12th you get +1 nat armor that increases to +3 at max by 20th, finally you get to be a bear at 18th. It's just a grizzly bear, has only d6's, and is the only form you can take.

Okay I stand corrected, I can have better than that at level one just by being a skinwalker.

On a different note, someone fill me in on the influence system. I'm big on roleplaying and dealing with NPCs so it has my attention

Liberty's Edge

FedoraFerret wrote:
Okay I stand corrected, I can have better than that at level one just by being a skinwalker.

Sure, but those can stack. A Ragebred Wild Soul can have 5 natural attacks at level 2. Then 6 at level 6.

Alchemists can already pull that trick, but it remains a very nice trick. Especially on a Full BAB Class (which, remember, Vigilante can be).


I gotta say, I am really liking the Ruse spells in this book. I hope to see more of them in the future.

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