Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Intrigue (PFRPG)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Intrigue (PFRPG)
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Words Cut Deep

In the right setting, a single scathing word can prove deadlier than a poisoned dagger. Behind the scenes of heroic battles and magical realms lies a seething underbelly of danger and deception. This world of intrigue holds endless possibilities for adventure, as heroes duel with words instead of steel, plot daring heists, and engage in battles of wills against relentless nemeses. A high-stakes game of shadows and secrets is yours to master—if you have the wits!

Whether the heroes are taming the blood-soaked back alleys of their favorite metropolis or jockeying for the queen's favor alongside highborn nobles, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue is an invaluable companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue includes:

  • The vigilante, a new character class that lives two lives—that of an unassuming member of the community, and a cloaked crusader with his own agenda!
  • New archetypes for alchemists, bards, druids, hunters, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, slayers, spiritualists, and more!
  • New feats and magic items for characters of all sorts, granting mastery of street-smart combat, impenetrable disguises, and misdirection.
  • Dozens of spells to manipulate tense social settings, whether to reveal adversaries' secrets or hide the truth.
  • A complete system of influence, providing new goals and rewards to challenge players and link their fortunes to nonplayer characters and organizations.
  • Systems and advice to help Game Masters introduce a variety of new encounters into their games­—daring heists, extended pursuits, and tense searches for buried secrets.
  • Rules for social combat and verbal duels, allowing characters to use words as weapons to sway hearts and humiliate foes.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-826-7

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A Must-Have for Heavy RP Games

5/5

Okay, let's get into Ultimate Intrigue! As the title implies, the purpose of this book is to help flesh out more subtle elements of the game: things like spreading rumors, rallying a crowd, stealing secrets, and other classic cloak-and-dagger stuff. I've used bits and pieces of it in previous campaigns, but read through it carefully (and incorporated a fair bit of it) for my current Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign, as that adventure path is designed around urban political strife. Boiled down to brass tacks, the book is a 256 page hardcover comprised of six chapters. The full-colour artwork is very strong throughout, and the cover is great (though Merisiel's legs are like three times longer than her torso!). There's a very short two-page introduction that summarises each chapter--which is what I'm going to do anyway.

Chapter 1 is "Classes" (60 pages). The big deal here is a new base case, the Vigilante. The concept is that the character has both a normal (social) identity and a masked identity, with certain class options only working while in the associated guise. There are also several safeguards to help keep anyone from figuring out that Bruce Wayne is really Batman. I have a Vigilante character in Pathfinder Society, and one of my players runs one in Curse of the Crimson Throne. I think the class is perfect for an urban campaign mostly set in a single city (especially with lots room for intrigue), but it doesn't work as well with the more traditional "travelling adventuring party" campaign. It's a bit too obvious when five newcomers arrive in town, only for one of them to "disappear" and a new costumed avenger show up. I know there are also some gamers who dislike what can seem like the awkward introduction of comic book super heroes into their fantasy role-playing. For me, I think the concept works well--though as I said, only in particular types of campaigns.

A large chunk of the chapter is devoted to new archetypes for other classes. More specifically, alchemists, bards, cavaliers, druids, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, skalds, spiritualists, swashbucklers, and vigilantes get some love. Frankly, a lot of the archetypes are fairly forgettable, but there are exceptions--for example, a Daring General Cavalier would be great in military campaigns, the Dandy Ranger could be really useful in an urban campaign, and a couple of the vigilante archetypes are perfect if you want to play the Hulk or Spider-Man. Although the rogue archetypes aren't very good, there are several excellent rogue talents that focus on making the character harder to track through divination, etc. It's worth nothing that this book came out during the period when the hardcover line was still setting-neutral, so there won't be any Golarion-specific flavour with the archetypes (for better or worse depending on your preferences).

Chapter 2 is "Feats" (24 pages). There's something like 110 new feats in the chapter, and probably something for everyone. Given the book's theme, many of the feats are related to sneaking around, hiding and disguising spells, stealing stuff, making plans, figuring out when you're being to lied to, etc. A few that I particularly like include Brilliant Planner (giving you the chance to have just what you need just when you need it), Call Truce (giving a slim chance to actually end combat peacefully when its underway), and Drunkard's Recovery (silly but fun). A couple of important feats are Conceal Spell (which hides the pesky manifestations that spells create in Pathfinder) and Fencing Grace (adding Dex to damage with rapiers, a favourite of swashbucklers everywhere). Overall, I thought the options presented were well-written and plausible in terms of desirability.

Chapter 3 is "Mastering Intrigue" (68 pages). This is probably the most important chapter in the book for GMs. It offers tons of useful advice, as well as clarification on some tricky game mechanics, to help run intrigue-based games. The pages about how common magic spells can be handled while still preserving mysteries, secrets, and misdirection is pure gold. The chapter also introduces seven new rules sub-systems, any or all of which can be incorporated into a campaign to flesh out certain aspects of gameplay. "Influence" is a sub-system that deepens the process of persuading a person or organisation to support you. Instead of a simple single Dipomacy check, PCs need to make certain skill checks to learn a person's interests and weaknesses, and then other skill checks to take advantage of what they've learned. The process operates through multiple phases of tracked successes and failures, and can be tied to mechanical favours and benefits. It's become a very popular facet of many Pathfinder Society scenarios, and I think it's a pretty clever way to handle things--though it can be a bit clunky at first. "Heists" is a sub-system that contains some excellent advice to GMs on how to structure things so players don't obsess over unimportant trivia and are willing to violate that old canard of "don't split the party." "Infiltration" contains some quick advice, but that's about it. "Leadership" deepens the feat of the same name, adding lots of rules for interacting with other sub-systems both in this book and in Ultimate Campaign. I'm personally still not persuaded that the Leadership feat chain is a good inclusion to the game. "Nemeses" is all about adding a recurring villain; I think it's trying to systematise something that could be handled just fine without it. Though there are some fun suggestions on evil plots to foil. "Pursuit" is a little like the Chase sub-system from the GameMastery Guide but stretched out over hours and days cross-country instead of in minutes through alleyways. I could imagine using it. "Research" is probably my favourite of the sub-systems, and one I've used in multiple campaigns. In essence, it gives the PCs a reason to use things like libraries and archives by giving them bonuses to their Knowledge checks, but then makes gaining different thresholds of information the result of multiple successful checks. Overall, a great chapter--I wish the Influence and Research sub-systems had been in the Core Rulebook, because they really add a lot to the non-combat aspects of the game.

Chapter 4 is "Social Combat" (25 pages). The idea here is to present GMs with options on how to handle social conflicts--things like debates, trials, cutting repartee, etc. There's also a "verbal duels" sub-system. I'm just not sure about it--it's something I'd have to see in practice. However, a really useful part of the chapter is advice to the GM on how to handle the various social skills in the game--Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive--as well as the intrigue skills like Disguise, Perception, and Stealth. The advice here is excellent, and I just stopped in the middle of this review to reread it.

Chapter 5 is "Spells" (40 pages). You can judge from the length of the chapter that there's a ton of new spells, and every spellcasting class will find something. One of the fun things the chapter introduces is a new "ruse" descriptor for spells, which means the spell is easily mistaken for another even by observers trained in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana). It's a good way to mislead folks who have played way too much Pathfinder. There are some really clever spells in this section, with a couple of my favourites including false resurrection (instead of bringing back a soul, you stuff a demon into the body!) and the hilarious shamefully overdressed.

Chapter 6 is "Gear and Magic Items" (22 pages). There are some new mundane pieces of equipment (weapons like the cool wrist dart launcher, alchemical items, etc.) but most of the chapter is new magic items with an intrigue theme. The one that really stuck out at me was the launcher of distraction, which is perfect for assassination attempts because it makes it seem like the attack is coming from somewhere else.

Overall, I think Ultimate Intrigue is an excellent book. It's pretty much a must-have in my opinion for any campaign that's going to involve a lot of role-playing or that moves beyond traditional dungeon crawling and wilderness encounters. Even readers not involved in "intrigue campaigns" per se are sure to find plenty of material they can use.


1/5

Don't get me wrong I love Paizo books, I love their work, and I'm proud to own almost all of their publications.

However, Ultimate Intrigue is the one book I regret buying. It's even more than that, it's the one book i regret they ever published.

We need rules and systems, ok. We need a magic system because magic isn't a real thing. We need a combat system otherwise playing with your grilfriend become home abuse. But we don't need a social system because it's a ROLEPLAYING game. Either you want intrigue heavy campaign and you roleplay them, or you want to dungeon crawl or investigate (that's fine too) and you don't play intrigues. You can even do both and it's great.

Aside from that massive problem, the book suffers from "a turn normal actions into feats/class ability" syndrome. I can't count the number of time where players made me fighters to wizards or rogues with a dual identity. We didn't need the Vigilante, and still don't. And I loved when wizard use to get clever and ask for linguistics/bluff roll to blend a spell into a phrase. Now you need a feat for it. Thanks, Ultimate Intrigue. If that was not enough, some of these nonsense feat are built in feat tax chains.

But the one thing I hate the most about this book is the stupid FAQ it bestowed upon us to promote itself (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tza). That makes a whole school of magic (illusion) utterly useless, and destroys a lot of others (enchantment).

Now I know I can just refuse to use it. But i use to love pathfinder for the clarity and perfect sense with out need to houserule much.

Now it's gone.


I'm tired of paizo trying to stuff this book down our face

1/5

If I was playing a home campaign this book might be more fitting,

For society play this verbal debate and other ideas for this book really bog down the game play. I like social aspect of games and role playing but as I said society play it slows the game way down to try and get people up to snuff on the mechanics


An amazing new class in a hit and miss supplement

4/5

So, Ultimate Intrigue took a long time for me to come to a complete opinion on.

The Vigilante class introduced in this book is, in my opinion, easily the best non-spellcasting class Paizo has ever created. It breaks up its social options and combat options in such a way that you have a great character able to participate in all areas of the game without having to choose whether you want to be competent in combat or in the myriad other facets of the game like exploration, social encounters, etc. It has deep and well-designed talents that allow you to pick any of a variety of different ways to participate in combat, with or without weapons, and numerous tools for allowing players to influence the story with safe houses, contacts, and more.

At PAX Prime 2016 I had the opportunity to visit Paizo's Pathfinder demo area and play their pregenerated vigilante character. I honestly didn't expect it to go terribly well; after all, the vigilante is a class built around balancing two identities and moving between different social strata, so you'd think that this would require a more controlled environment where you know the other players in advance and have time to plan out how your character fits into the game world with your GM ahead of time, right? Turns out, I was wrong. The vigilante class is well-crafted enough that even while playing a 1st level pregen I was able to easily deal with situations in and out of combat, and it took me about 60 seconds of conversation to establish with the group that I had a secret identity they were privy to and might need them to cover for my character from time to time if he needed to swap identities. It didn't hurt matters that the only downside to anyone learning a vigilante's secret identity is that, well, they know his or her secret identity. You can go all Tony Stark if you want, announce that you are Iron Man, and carry on as normal. Very few of the vigilante's abilities actually require you to maintain truly secret identities, and the only real hit you take is that you're a bit easier to find by magical means (though even this can be addressed with clever use of the Safe House Social Talent).

The book also elaborates on the intent behind numerous spells that often prove problematic for GMs in games where they want to have a focus on gritty investigation of mystery, such as the various detect spells, speak with dead, etc.

I think my biggest disappointments with the book, and the reason I can't give it 5 stars, lie in the feats and archetypes. I'll start with the feats, and a bit about why I see most of them as representative of missed opportunities.

To start with, Pathfinder's skill system is heavily dated. When Paizo brought it over from 3.5, they combined a few extraneous skills, but otherwise did little to update things, meaning the core area of the rules covering everything in the game that isn't casting spells or hitting things is now well over a decade old and out of date. Several skills don't even actually work, or work well, as written, have interactions you're just supposed to kind of assume or make up (Ride and Handle Animal are a mess, Stealth requires one to check out FAQs and blog posts online to use as intended, Bluff and Diplomacy have more than a few vague areas and inconsistencies, etc.), so what better book to address, update, and expand these core components of the game than a book about playing skill and intrigue heavy campaigns? Unfortunately, Paizo chose not to go that route, instead relying on feats to stretch skills over their gaps and issues, leading to many of the feats in the this book providing skill uses that I've seen GMs at hundreds of tables houserule as basic functions of those skills to begin with. Instead of formalizing intuitive uses of existing skills into their basic function, they added a feat tax to allow characters to do things many people already thought they could do. While there is a section in the book going over several of the vague areas in a few key skills, these are primarily common sense clarifications instead of the full address the skills could have used.

The archetypes, like many Paizo hardcovers, are all over the place. Some of them are interesting and dynamic, like the Masked Performer bard archetype, some show an attempt at embodying a cool and modern concept but fail to achieve that concept in the actual execution, like the Magical Child vigilante archetype, and some are just plain bad, so obviously terribly designed that you almost wonder if the person who wrote them has ever actually played Pathfinder, like the Brute vigilante archetype.

Now, don't let the above wall of negativity mislead you; there is a lot of great stuff in this book, including perhaps the most inspired and well-crafted class Paizo has ever produced, a class that introduces really interesting design concepts, plays with components of the class chassis we haven't seen classes treat as quite so malleable before, and is a genuinely fun and interesting class to play in and of itself. Despite many of the feats ranging from useless to frustrating, there are still quite a few that are interesting and viable, and while the archetypes are very hit or miss, that's generally true of Paizo books in general and probably shouldn't be held against this one in particular.

My final verdict on Ultimate Intrigue is 4 stars, and a strong recommendation to pick it up, if for no other reason than to add the Vigilante class to your game (though there definitely are other reasons to add this book to your collection).


Pathfinder presents Batman!

4/5

No seriously. The vigilante class is freaking batman. Look at the art for chapter one and for the character. HE'S BATMAN. Of course they also have archetypes if you want to make Hulk, Sailor Moon, even He-Man. With the archetypes from other books the list goes on.
My favorite part, and I cannot wait to test this properly in a game, is the social combat. It works a lot like playing craps or roulette. You get a pool of Determination points which you use to place a bet then you roll off with your social skills check! Seriously it sounds like lots of fun!


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Xethik wrote:
What are the mechanics for Conceal and Improved Conceal Spell?

Not allowed to post the exact mechanics. No check required; your ranks in a relevant skill and appropriate ability score set a pretty significant DC for other people to make to catch you at it. However, the higher the spell level, the easier it is to spot. (Improved Conceal Spell gets rid of that bit.) Psychic spells and run-of-the-mill SLAs have a bit of an advantage, though- somatic components let observers make a second check to spot it. Psychic casters will still prefer Cunning Caster, but this works well for Kineticists and is a lot more viable for divine/arcane casters than Cunning Caster.


Thanks everyone for all the info, it's about time for me to go to work.


What does the Tyrant look like?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
technarken wrote:
I guess if Fencing Grace is getting nerfed it means all the Magi can go back to being devout Sarenite Dervishes?

I just don't understand why it's ok to get Dex to damage and use Spell Combat with a scimitar, which normally isn't even finesseable, but you can't do the same with a Rapier even using a feat chain that is longer than that for Dervish Dance. It doesn't make sense in terms of game balance or flavor. Why deny people the Rapier option, but keep the Scimitar option? I hate the way Dex to damage has been handled.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Xethik wrote:
What are the mechanics for Conceal and Improved Conceal Spell?
Not allowed to post the exact mechanics. No check required; your ranks in a relevant skill and appropriate ability score set a pretty significant DC for other people to make to catch you at it. However, the higher the spell level, the easier it is to spot. (Improved Conceal Spell gets rid of that bit.) Psychic spells and run-of-the-mill SLAs have a bit of an advantage, though- somatic components let observers make a second check to spot it. Psychic casters will still prefer Cunning Caster, but this works well for Kineticists and is a lot more viable for divine/arcane casters than Cunning Caster.

Exactly what I meant when asking for mechanics, thanks!

Liberty's Edge

Alexander Augunas wrote:
It only really bothers me for the swashbuckler, personally. Here you have what is supposed to be the ultimate Dex-based martial, and not only can it not use Dex to damage for all but a scarce few weapons (which what ought to be its inferior, the unchained rogue, can), but it is completely unable to use one of the most iconic swashbuckler weapon styles: two-weapon fighting.

The Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler archetype can still do two-weapon fighting with Dex to hit and damage... though it is still limited to the swashbuckler finesse weapon list (i.e. light and one-handed piercing).


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DM_Kumo Gekkou wrote:
What does the Tyrant look like?

It is basically the bare minimum set of changes needed to make a lawful evil antipaladin playable. It alters his code, class skills, and fiendish companion in relatively minor ways. Okay, the class skill change is more than is absolutely needed, but the other two changes are needed.

Incidentally, that does leave a few discrepancies in the antipaladin spell list, since I think it contains a few spells that assume that the antipaladin is chaotic.


Any feats or archetypes that work with Keneticist ?


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragon78 wrote:
What does gaze reflection do?

It's a mesmerist feat that allows them to use your stare to ward off gaze attacks, or potentially turn them back on the originator.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Okay so I did a long post about my first thoughts.

Needed a few glasses of wine to get me through the night but those are my thoughts.


nighttree wrote:
Any feats or archetypes that work with Keneticist ?

First answer: Nope. Just a talent for each of the five main elements.

Second answer: Since Kineticists have a lot of free feats, you've got options. In particular, the one that can conceal your casting of SLAs is handy for air and telekinesis, both of which could probably get away with more effects that don't appear to originate from them. Trouble is that Gather Energy is still going to give you away.

Scarab Sages

Malwing wrote:

Okay so I did a long post about my first thoughts.

Needed a few glasses of wine to get me through the night but those are my thoughts.

How dare you not like the library rules!!!! :P

They actually were one of my favorite rules to come out of an AP (Mummy's Mask), so I'm glad they're getting reprinted in a Core book. Since MM, I've actually used those rules in 2 other instances!


Malwing wrote:

Okay so I did a long post about my first thoughts.

Needed a few glasses of wine to get me through the night but those are my thoughts.

Thank you. That was really informative.


Hold on.

SLAs are not naturally concealed? All you're doing is focusing to release the magic. You could be staring at someone while in conversation and unleash it and no one would be the wiser of where the magic came from (depending on the SLA).

In combat it makes sense, you suffer the AoO cause your intense concentration is noticeable in battle. But elsewhere I find it hard to believe it can be noticed.

That seems odd to me. Where does it even state that SLAs are noticeable?


Barachiel Shina wrote:

Hold on.

SLAs are not naturally concealed? All you're doing is focusing to release the magic. You could be staring at someone while in conversation and unleash it and no one would be the wiser of where the magic came from (depending on the SLA).

In combat it makes sense, you suffer the AoO cause your intense concentration is noticeable in battle. But elsewhere I find it hard to believe it can be noticed.

That seems odd to me. Where does it even state that SLAs are noticeable?

Same place it states that silent, stilled spells with no material components are noticeable. (Which I always have trouble finding, since the FAQs are hard to search.) You've still got all the sparkles of magic. Since I'm looking at a feat that allows hiding SLAs, I'm confident I'm not just misremembering.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
archmagi1 wrote:
Malwing wrote:

Okay so I did a long post about my first thoughts.

Needed a few glasses of wine to get me through the night but those are my thoughts.

How dare you not like the library rules!!!! :P

They actually were one of my favorite rules to come out of an AP (Mummy's Mask), so I'm glad they're getting reprinted in a Core book. Since MM, I've actually used those rules in 2 other instances!

I like the idea of library rules but I gotta say, I don't think the version we've got is very good, at least from the perspective of getting the entire party involved. It's too easy for one person with a good skill mod to take over and make everyone else irrelevant. I've played a number of scenarios with variants of the rules and every time, one of the casters or skill monkeys can make the DCs by themselves while taking 1. The rest of the party just sits around doing nothing, or fruitlessly aiding another for no real reason at all. One scenario at least has the martials moving bookshelves, but my knowledge monkey was a couple points worse than another knowledge monkey for that one and he didn't get to contribute anything. (He rocked at least one other--I'm not bitter or anything--I just think you want to reward a party of researchers for being good at researching, not limiting the party to one primary researcher.)

My opinion seems to be in the minority though. And there's a ton of other good stuff in this book, it sounds like!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Barachiel Shina wrote:

Hold on.

SLAs are not naturally concealed? All you're doing is focusing to release the magic. You could be staring at someone while in conversation and unleash it and no one would be the wiser of where the magic came from (depending on the SLA).

In combat it makes sense, you suffer the AoO cause your intense concentration is noticeable in battle. But elsewhere I find it hard to believe it can be noticed.

That seems odd to me. Where does it even state that SLAs are noticeable?

Unlike in the rest of 3.x, it's clear in Pathfinder that spellcraft DCs to identify spellcasting are not increased for spells with no verbal, somatic, or material components. That leads everyone to believe (and it's been confirmed by Paizo) that there are obvious visual/auditory/etc. effects from spellcasting even when you're not going through the motions. Exactly what those are is up to the individual GM or player.


Barachiel Shina wrote:

Hold on.

SLAs are not naturally concealed? All you're doing is focusing to release the magic. You could be staring at someone while in conversation and unleash it and no one would be the wiser of where the magic came from (depending on the SLA).

In combat it makes sense, you suffer the AoO cause your intense concentration is noticeable in battle. But elsewhere I find it hard to believe it can be noticed.

That seems odd to me. Where does it even state that SLAs are noticeable?

This FAQ.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CBDunkerson wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
It only really bothers me for the swashbuckler, personally. Here you have what is supposed to be the ultimate Dex-based martial, and not only can it not use Dex to damage for all but a scarce few weapons (which what ought to be its inferior, the unchained rogue, can), but it is completely unable to use one of the most iconic swashbuckler weapon styles: two-weapon fighting.
The Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler archetype can still do two-weapon fighting with Dex to hit and damage... though it is still limited to the swashbuckler finesse weapon list (i.e. light and one-handed piercing).

Ah yup, good call.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I like a lot of the book. I have one particular gripe about the Leadership section, though. Spoilering it, because...griping slightly.

Spoiler:

We get 6 new Leadership feats of sorts. One, Vile Leadership, is just designed for evil characters. Whatever, I don't much care. It's particularly relevant with Hell's Vengeance, but not in my games.

Of the other five, all of them can be traded for Leadership when you hit 7th level. Again, no big deal.

Four of them can be taken at level 4, and grant cohorts at level-3 (some benefits I won't go into). My issue involves these four feats, Groom, Light Bearer, Page, and Weapon Bearer. Between them, they allow a character of 4th level (who has a feat available...probably via retraining, given that I don't see a way for most characters to get them at an even level) to get an alchemist, bard, cavalier, fighter, gunslinger, paladin, ranger, or rogue as cohorts.

The last of these five feats is Recruits, which can be taken at 5th level. This gives you multiple 'recruits' (not specifying the number to keep from irritating the powers that be) that you supposedly teach, but you can only have one of with you at a time. The others are supposedly studying elsewhere. Anyway, they're restricted to your level -4, and it's the only way short of Leadership itself for your characters to get classes other than the ones granted by the four feats listed above.

So the only way for a wizard to have an apprentice, or a cleric to have an acolyte assigned to them, is to take Recruits, or wait for 7th level and take Leadership. This irritates me massively. An 'apprentice' feat would have made a huge amount of sense, given that they gave other benefits to Groom and the like!

That being said, I do like Recruits in a general sense, as it gives a way to have a small group of 'disciples' for a character. I simply am annoyed that it's the only way to get a few classic minion types (butler can at least be managed, thank the gods).


archmagi1 wrote:
Malwing wrote:

Okay so I did a long post about my first thoughts.

Needed a few glasses of wine to get me through the night but those are my thoughts.

How dare you not like the library rules!!!! :P

They actually were one of my favorite rules to come out of an AP (Mummy's Mask), so I'm glad they're getting reprinted in a Core book. Since MM, I've actually used those rules in 2 other instances!

Its not that I dislike the library rules, I haven't analyzed them enough to say, but I do find it hilariously absurd that they exist in the first place. I just keep imagining those anime where something is played up to be super epic and action packed when they're just doing something that doesn't look exciting at all like eating chips or something.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Cydeth --

Cohorts and Companions had a Wizard archetype that let a wizard have an apprentice from 1st level. I am not aware of any similar setup for the Cleric.

The Recruits feat is basically reprinted from the same Player Companion.


I haven't read Ultimate Intrigue yet, sadly :'(

But I assume those library rules is like in the movie Spotlight where the main characters gotta do a ton of research, and they made that look pretty engaging and suspenseful on screen.


Do vigilantes still have the Safehouse social talent and can still have several areas of Renown if one paid for it with more social talents? If so, does the book specify if a vigilante is stuck with one safehouse, or can have more than one (i.e., one in each area of renown)? If the latter, does it explain how big a safehouse they can have for each one?

Silver Crusade

Protoman wrote:
Do vigilantes still have the Safehouse social talent and can still have several areas of Renown if one paid for it with more social talents? If so, does the book specify if a vigilante is stuck with one safehouse, or can have more than one (i.e., one in each area of renown)? If the latter, does it explain how big a safehouse they can have for each one?

Yes, and you can only have one but you can change it.

They are 10 cubic feet per Vigilante level.


Rysky wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Do vigilantes still have the Safehouse social talent and can still have several areas of Renown if one paid for it with more social talents? If so, does the book specify if a vigilante is stuck with one safehouse, or can have more than one (i.e., one in each area of renown)? If the latter, does it explain how big a safehouse they can have for each one?

Yes, and you can only have one but you can change it.

They are 10 cubic feet per Vigilante level.

Ah thanks! That has been plaguing me since the playtest!

Designer

Rysky wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Do vigilantes still have the Safehouse social talent and can still have several areas of Renown if one paid for it with more social talents? If so, does the book specify if a vigilante is stuck with one safehouse, or can have more than one (i.e., one in each area of renown)? If the latter, does it explain how big a safehouse they can have for each one?

Yes, and you can only have one but you can change it.

They are 10 cubic feet per Vigilante level.

They are actually 1000 cubic feet * (vigilante level)^3, which is 10,000 times more volume at level 10.


Whoa. I too failed at math when I read that. 1000 cubic feet per level is pretty sweet. Now I just gotta figure out where in Absalom I'm gonna put it.


Protoman wrote:
Do vigilantes still have the Safehouse social talent and can still have several areas of Renown if one paid for it with more social talents? If so, does the book specify if a vigilante is stuck with one safehouse, or can have more than one (i.e., one in each area of renown)? If the latter, does it explain how big a safehouse they can have for each one?

Okay, let's see. When you hit 11th, if you've been keeping up on renown talents, you can take one that lets you either have one big area or two smaller ones. There is no text about getting more than one safe house, but you get to move your safe house any time you change your area of renown. Safe House no longer requires you to be invested in the renown talents, though- you can still select it without any of them. In that case, though, you won't be able to move it.


Protoman wrote:
Whoa. I too failed at math when I read that. 1000 cubic feet per level is pretty sweet. Now I just gotta figure out where in Absalom I'm gonna put it.

Nope, still failing at math. It's 1,000 cubic feet times your level cubed. At first level, it's a 10x10x10 cube (or equivalent), and at second, it's 20x20x20. By the time you hit twenty, you have 200x200x200, or a twenty-story building the size of half a U.S. football field.

Designer

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QuidEst wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Whoa. I too failed at math when I read that. 1000 cubic feet per level is pretty sweet. Now I just gotta figure out where in Absalom I'm gonna put it.
Nope, still failing at math. It's 1,000 cubic feet times your level cubed. At first level, it's a 10x10x10 cube (or equivalent), and at second, it's 20x20x20. By the time you hit twenty, you have 200x200x200, or a twenty-story building the size of half a U.S. football field.

Yup, or level 20 could be an enormous batcave underground with multiple levels, or a building complex cunningly arranged to interconnect with secret passages, etc.


<drool!>

WANT!
Utterly useless in PFS, but I got renown in all of Absalom thanks to the playtest boon and it'd be sad to not utilize it.
Never needed full-round for quick change anyways. I'd always pick an identity and stuck with it after mission briefing.


In regards to Fencing Grace: which Dex based class are you releasing that you needed to nerf Fencing Grace like this, Paizo? Now you've ruined even the safety of soft covers. :(


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Azten wrote:
In regards to Fencing Grace: which Dex based class are you releasing that you needed to nerf Fencing Grace like this? Now you've ruined even the safety of soft covers. :(

If I recall, there was a slight special case in that the PDT developed Advanced Class Origins.

That being said, the old one is still valid in PFS. We'll see how long that lasts, though.


I'm not sure a book released separately will automatically undo the old feat, unless the older book gets an errata. Seems like a weird thing to happen.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Lanitril wrote:
I'm not sure a book released separately will automatically undo the old feat, unless the older book gets an errata. Seems like a weird thing to happen.

More likely, it'll be a Faiths of Purity situation. New Butterfly's Sting/Fencing Grace is legal, while old Butterfly's Sting/Fencing Grace is not.


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Wyrmfoe wrote:

In addition to request for Investigator stuff, could a clarification be provided:

Does the new Fencing Grace still only work for rapiers? Is it now for all piercing weapons?

Is there a feat yet to allow Dex damage for sword canes?

The absence of a core RPG line Dex to damage option for that weapon is criminal, in my opinion. I'm hoping the "agile" enchantment gets reprinted.

On another note, the Brute sounds like exactly what I've always wanted. No longer will my socially-skilled gentleman have to lug around combat abilities when trying to be a part of the upper-crust.

Silver Crusade

Alexander Augunas wrote:
Xethik wrote:

Thanks for the info on the new Fencing Grace. Makes me quite sad, personally. Rapier + Rapier with Effortless Lace should live on, forever!

I mean, I guess it helps to be consistent and disallow Dex to damage with extra attacks (Flurry or TWF) with URogue as an exception. I guess I'm just against that movement.

It only really bothers me for the swashbuckler, personally. Here you have what is supposed to be the ultimate Dex-based martial, and not only can it not use Dex to damage for all but a scarce few weapons (which what ought to be its inferior, the unchained rogue, can), but it is completely unable to use one of the most iconic swashbuckler weapon styles: two-weapon fighting.

Here's hoping that time will heal all wounds. :-)

I argued hard against the swashbuckler's TWF restriction in the ACG playtest, right down to my very own example, to no avail. I doubt they're going to do anything but continue to tighten the noose.


It'd be nice for them to explain WHY when they make such controversial decisions.


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Renegade Paladin wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Xethik wrote:

Thanks for the info on the new Fencing Grace. Makes me quite sad, personally. Rapier + Rapier with Effortless Lace should live on, forever!

I mean, I guess it helps to be consistent and disallow Dex to damage with extra attacks (Flurry or TWF) with URogue as an exception. I guess I'm just against that movement.

It only really bothers me for the swashbuckler, personally. Here you have what is supposed to be the ultimate Dex-based martial, and not only can it not use Dex to damage for all but a scarce few weapons (which what ought to be its inferior, the unchained rogue, can), but it is completely unable to use one of the most iconic swashbuckler weapon styles: two-weapon fighting.

Here's hoping that time will heal all wounds. :-)

I argued hard against the swashbuckler's TWF restriction in the ACG playtest, right down to my very own example, to no avail. I doubt they're going to do anything but continue to tighten the noose.

It's a symptom of why I stopped giving this company any money back over the crane wing fiasco.

The slashing grace 'fix' (in the fashion that you get your cat fixed by the vet) wasn't errata. It was just a plain old nerf to feed someone on staff's personal bugbear. But we still had Fencing Grace that wasn't going to get errata'd because it was in a Companion, so 'hey, let's reprint it and screw that one too!'. Smells like good old petty spite.

"Here, buy this book, it's got some really good stuff in for your favourite character types!"
3 months later...
"Psych!"
I'm sure some people are ok with paying for the old bait & switch, but these days my group just waits for things to hit Nethys/d20pfsrd.


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Barachiel Shina wrote:
It'd be nice for them to explain WHY when they make such controversial decisions.

We know the answer. Goes something like "Whoops! Martials got a nice thing! Get back in your 2-handed Fighter box and stay there."


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I've caught an oversight with the secret broker now that I have the book. How are they supposed to use outside contact, which they still have?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Throne wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:
It'd be nice for them to explain WHY when they make such controversial decisions.
We know the answer. Goes something like "Whoops! Martials got a nice thing! Get back in your 2-handed Fighter box and stay there."

You've already decided the conclusion is unacceptable. What possible justification could Paizo give that would make you feel better about it?

Giving the 'justification' for a controversial decision just encourages people to argue with it - either out of the sheer principle of the thing or a misguided belief that if they shout loud enough the decision will be reversed.


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I cannot say how much we need "play tests" for FAQ and Errata. And for them to stop their "only errata when a new print starts" policy.


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Ross Byers wrote:
Throne wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:
It'd be nice for them to explain WHY when they make such controversial decisions.
We know the answer. Goes something like "Whoops! Martials got a nice thing! Get back in your 2-handed Fighter box and stay there."

You've already decided the conclusion is unacceptable. What possible justification could Paizo give that would make you feel better about it?

Giving the 'justification' for a controversial decision just encourages people to argue with it - either out of the sheer principle of the thing or a misguided belief that if they shout loud enough the decision will be reversed.

Oh, we know the decision isn't going to change.

There's maybe a tiny, vain hope that someone might realise 'you know, we're actually pissing off a bunch of people for no actual gain by keep pulling this crap. Maybe we could, y'know, try not doing that, just to see how it turns out?'

(and I know it's fun to declare people have 'already made their minds up' as a way of trying to appear aloof and dismissive towards their position, but I'd actually be ok with a reasoning that actually set out a non-'screw you guys' position and addressed people's objections to that position beyond just 'yeah but go away'. Sort of like a dialogue, y'know?)


Ross Byers wrote:
Throne wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:
It'd be nice for them to explain WHY when they make such controversial decisions.
We know the answer. Goes something like "Whoops! Martials got a nice thing! Get back in your 2-handed Fighter box and stay there."

You've already decided the conclusion is unacceptable. What possible justification could Paizo give that would make you feel better about it?

Giving the 'justification' for a controversial decision just encourages people to argue with it - either out of the sheer principle of the thing or a misguided belief that if they shout loud enough the decision will be reversed.

Probably true, but is arguing such a bad thing? It proves people ccare enough about the game to be bothered when they feel something is wrong with it.

When I stopped complaining about D&D 4th, that was because I stopped playing it.

Liberty's Edge

Throne wrote:
The slashing grace 'fix' (in the fashion that you get your cat fixed by the vet) wasn't errata. It was just a plain old nerf to feed someone on staff's personal bugbear. But we still had Fencing Grace that wasn't going to get errata'd because it was in a Companion, so 'hey, let's reprint it and screw that one too!'. Smells like good old petty spite.

Actually, to me it seemed pretty clear that the errata version was the intent all along... all the way back to Dervish Dance. Just wasn't worded clearly enough to prevent all the exceptions people wanted to introduce.

As to why it is considered such a powerful effect (to the point that there is actually a Mythic dex to damage option)... being able to get AC, attack, and damage from a single ability score is VERY nice. Pump dexterity up high enough and that single ability can make the character devastating.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Cruel Illusion wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Throne wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:
It'd be nice for them to explain WHY when they make such controversial decisions.
We know the answer. Goes something like "Whoops! Martials got a nice thing! Get back in your 2-handed Fighter box and stay there."

You've already decided the conclusion is unacceptable. What possible justification could Paizo give that would make you feel better about it?

Giving the 'justification' for a controversial decision just encourages people to argue with it - either out of the sheer principle of the thing or a misguided belief that if they shout loud enough the decision will be reversed.

Probably true, but is arguing such a bad thing? It proves people ccare enough about the game to be bothered when they feel something is wrong with it.

When I stopped complaining about D&D 4th, that was because I stopped playing it.

Oh, by all means, voice your opinions. My point was that I don't see the point in arguing over the justification and the decision instead of just the decision itself.

This is the internet - where people are happy to pick apart an argument point-by-point, and attack the weakest, most-poorly-worded point, possibly out of context, as if it were the entire argument.


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CBDunkerson wrote:
Throne wrote:
The slashing grace 'fix' (in the fashion that you get your cat fixed by the vet) wasn't errata. It was just a plain old nerf to feed someone on staff's personal bugbear. But we still had Fencing Grace that wasn't going to get errata'd because it was in a Companion, so 'hey, let's reprint it and screw that one too!'. Smells like good old petty spite.

Actually, to me it seemed pretty clear that the errata version was the intent all along... all the way back to Dervish Dance. Just wasn't worded clearly enough to prevent all the exceptions people wanted to introduce.

Interesting claim... what part of the original Slashing Grace wording gave you the impression that the other hand had to remain empty and inactive?

There's nothing in the feat that suggests that. The off-hand isn't even mentioned, ever.

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