In the right setting, a single scathing word can prove deadlier than a poisoned dagger. Behind the scenes of heroic battles and magical realms lies a seething underbelly of danger and deception. This world of intrigue holds endless possibilities for adventure, as heroes duel with words instead of steel, plot daring heists, and engage in battles of wills against relentless nemeses. A high-stakes game of shadows and secrets is yours to master—if you have the wits!
Whether the heroes are taming the blood-soaked back alleys of their favorite metropolis or jockeying for the queen's favor alongside highborn nobles, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue is an invaluable companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.
Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue includes:
The vigilante, a new character class that lives two lives—that of an unassuming member of the community, and a cloaked crusader with his own agenda!
New archetypes for alchemists, bards, druids, hunters, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, slayers, spiritualists, and more!
New feats and magic items for characters of all sorts, granting mastery of street-smart combat, impenetrable disguises, and misdirection.
Dozens of spells to manipulate tense social settings, whether to reveal adversaries' secrets or hide the truth.
A complete system of influence, providing new goals and rewards to challenge players and link their fortunes to nonplayer characters and organizations.
Systems and advice to help Game Masters introduce a variety of new encounters into their games—daring heists, extended pursuits, and tense searches for buried secrets.
Rules for social combat and verbal duels, allowing characters to use words as weapons to sway hearts and humiliate foes.
... and much, much more!
ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-826-7
Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:
Okay, let's get into Ultimate Intrigue! As the title implies, the purpose of this book is to help flesh out more subtle elements of the game: things like spreading rumors, rallying a crowd, stealing secrets, and other classic cloak-and-dagger stuff. I've used bits and pieces of it in previous campaigns, but read through it carefully (and incorporated a fair bit of it) for my current Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign, as that adventure path is designed around urban political strife. Boiled down to brass tacks, the book is a 256 page hardcover comprised of six chapters. The full-colour artwork is very strong throughout, and the cover is great (though Merisiel's legs are like three times longer than her torso!). There's a very short two-page introduction that summarises each chapter--which is what I'm going to do anyway.
Chapter 1 is "Classes" (60 pages). The big deal here is a new base case, the Vigilante. The concept is that the character has both a normal (social) identity and a masked identity, with certain class options only working while in the associated guise. There are also several safeguards to help keep anyone from figuring out that Bruce Wayne is really Batman. I have a Vigilante character in Pathfinder Society, and one of my players runs one in Curse of the Crimson Throne. I think the class is perfect for an urban campaign mostly set in a single city (especially with lots room for intrigue), but it doesn't work as well with the more traditional "travelling adventuring party" campaign. It's a bit too obvious when five newcomers arrive in town, only for one of them to "disappear" and a new costumed avenger show up. I know there are also some gamers who dislike what can seem like the awkward introduction of comic book super heroes into their fantasy role-playing. For me, I think the concept works well--though as I said, only in particular types of campaigns.
A large chunk of the chapter is devoted to new archetypes for other classes. More specifically, alchemists, bards, cavaliers, druids, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, skalds, spiritualists, swashbucklers, and vigilantes get some love. Frankly, a lot of the archetypes are fairly forgettable, but there are exceptions--for example, a Daring General Cavalier would be great in military campaigns, the Dandy Ranger could be really useful in an urban campaign, and a couple of the vigilante archetypes are perfect if you want to play the Hulk or Spider-Man. Although the rogue archetypes aren't very good, there are several excellent rogue talents that focus on making the character harder to track through divination, etc. It's worth nothing that this book came out during the period when the hardcover line was still setting-neutral, so there won't be any Golarion-specific flavour with the archetypes (for better or worse depending on your preferences).
Chapter 2 is "Feats" (24 pages). There's something like 110 new feats in the chapter, and probably something for everyone. Given the book's theme, many of the feats are related to sneaking around, hiding and disguising spells, stealing stuff, making plans, figuring out when you're being to lied to, etc. A few that I particularly like include Brilliant Planner (giving you the chance to have just what you need just when you need it), Call Truce (giving a slim chance to actually end combat peacefully when its underway), and Drunkard's Recovery (silly but fun). A couple of important feats are Conceal Spell (which hides the pesky manifestations that spells create in Pathfinder) and Fencing Grace (adding Dex to damage with rapiers, a favourite of swashbucklers everywhere). Overall, I thought the options presented were well-written and plausible in terms of desirability.
Chapter 3 is "Mastering Intrigue" (68 pages). This is probably the most important chapter in the book for GMs. It offers tons of useful advice, as well as clarification on some tricky game mechanics, to help run intrigue-based games. The pages about how common magic spells can be handled while still preserving mysteries, secrets, and misdirection is pure gold. The chapter also introduces seven new rules sub-systems, any or all of which can be incorporated into a campaign to flesh out certain aspects of gameplay. "Influence" is a sub-system that deepens the process of persuading a person or organisation to support you. Instead of a simple single Dipomacy check, PCs need to make certain skill checks to learn a person's interests and weaknesses, and then other skill checks to take advantage of what they've learned. The process operates through multiple phases of tracked successes and failures, and can be tied to mechanical favours and benefits. It's become a very popular facet of many Pathfinder Society scenarios, and I think it's a pretty clever way to handle things--though it can be a bit clunky at first. "Heists" is a sub-system that contains some excellent advice to GMs on how to structure things so players don't obsess over unimportant trivia and are willing to violate that old canard of "don't split the party." "Infiltration" contains some quick advice, but that's about it. "Leadership" deepens the feat of the same name, adding lots of rules for interacting with other sub-systems both in this book and in Ultimate Campaign. I'm personally still not persuaded that the Leadership feat chain is a good inclusion to the game. "Nemeses" is all about adding a recurring villain; I think it's trying to systematise something that could be handled just fine without it. Though there are some fun suggestions on evil plots to foil. "Pursuit" is a little like the Chase sub-system from the GameMastery Guide but stretched out over hours and days cross-country instead of in minutes through alleyways. I could imagine using it. "Research" is probably my favourite of the sub-systems, and one I've used in multiple campaigns. In essence, it gives the PCs a reason to use things like libraries and archives by giving them bonuses to their Knowledge checks, but then makes gaining different thresholds of information the result of multiple successful checks. Overall, a great chapter--I wish the Influence and Research sub-systems had been in the Core Rulebook, because they really add a lot to the non-combat aspects of the game.
Chapter 4 is "Social Combat" (25 pages). The idea here is to present GMs with options on how to handle social conflicts--things like debates, trials, cutting repartee, etc. There's also a "verbal duels" sub-system. I'm just not sure about it--it's something I'd have to see in practice. However, a really useful part of the chapter is advice to the GM on how to handle the various social skills in the game--Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive--as well as the intrigue skills like Disguise, Perception, and Stealth. The advice here is excellent, and I just stopped in the middle of this review to reread it.
Chapter 5 is "Spells" (40 pages). You can judge from the length of the chapter that there's a ton of new spells, and every spellcasting class will find something. One of the fun things the chapter introduces is a new "ruse" descriptor for spells, which means the spell is easily mistaken for another even by observers trained in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana). It's a good way to mislead folks who have played way too much Pathfinder. There are some really clever spells in this section, with a couple of my favourites including false resurrection (instead of bringing back a soul, you stuff a demon into the body!) and the hilarious shamefully overdressed.
Chapter 6 is "Gear and Magic Items" (22 pages). There are some new mundane pieces of equipment (weapons like the cool wrist dart launcher, alchemical items, etc.) but most of the chapter is new magic items with an intrigue theme. The one that really stuck out at me was the launcher of distraction, which is perfect for assassination attempts because it makes it seem like the attack is coming from somewhere else.
Overall, I think Ultimate Intrigue is an excellent book. It's pretty much a must-have in my opinion for any campaign that's going to involve a lot of role-playing or that moves beyond traditional dungeon crawling and wilderness encounters. Even readers not involved in "intrigue campaigns" per se are sure to find plenty of material they can use.
Don't get me wrong I love Paizo books, I love their work, and I'm proud to own almost all of their publications.
However, Ultimate Intrigue is the one book I regret buying. It's even more than that, it's the one book i regret they ever published.
We need rules and systems, ok. We need a magic system because magic isn't a real thing. We need a combat system otherwise playing with your grilfriend become home abuse. But we don't need a social system because it's a ROLEPLAYING game. Either you want intrigue heavy campaign and you roleplay them, or you want to dungeon crawl or investigate (that's fine too) and you don't play intrigues. You can even do both and it's great.
Aside from that massive problem, the book suffers from "a turn normal actions into feats/class ability" syndrome. I can't count the number of time where players made me fighters to wizards or rogues with a dual identity. We didn't need the Vigilante, and still don't. And I loved when wizard use to get clever and ask for linguistics/bluff roll to blend a spell into a phrase. Now you need a feat for it. Thanks, Ultimate Intrigue. If that was not enough, some of these nonsense feat are built in feat tax chains.
But the one thing I hate the most about this book is the stupid FAQ it bestowed upon us to promote itself (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tza). That makes a whole school of magic (illusion) utterly useless, and destroys a lot of others (enchantment).
Now I know I can just refuse to use it. But i use to love pathfinder for the clarity and perfect sense with out need to houserule much.
Now it's gone.
I'm tired of paizo trying to stuff this book down our face
If I was playing a home campaign this book might be more fitting,
For society play this verbal debate and other ideas for this book really bog down the game play. I like social aspect of games and role playing but as I said society play it slows the game way down to try and get people up to snuff on the mechanics
So, Ultimate Intrigue took a long time for me to come to a complete opinion on.
The Vigilante class introduced in this book is, in my opinion, easily the best non-spellcasting class Paizo has ever created. It breaks up its social options and combat options in such a way that you have a great character able to participate in all areas of the game without having to choose whether you want to be competent in combat or in the myriad other facets of the game like exploration, social encounters, etc. It has deep and well-designed talents that allow you to pick any of a variety of different ways to participate in combat, with or without weapons, and numerous tools for allowing players to influence the story with safe houses, contacts, and more.
At PAX Prime 2016 I had the opportunity to visit Paizo's Pathfinder demo area and play their pregenerated vigilante character. I honestly didn't expect it to go terribly well; after all, the vigilante is a class built around balancing two identities and moving between different social strata, so you'd think that this would require a more controlled environment where you know the other players in advance and have time to plan out how your character fits into the game world with your GM ahead of time, right? Turns out, I was wrong. The vigilante class is well-crafted enough that even while playing a 1st level pregen I was able to easily deal with situations in and out of combat, and it took me about 60 seconds of conversation to establish with the group that I had a secret identity they were privy to and might need them to cover for my character from time to time if he needed to swap identities. It didn't hurt matters that the only downside to anyone learning a vigilante's secret identity is that, well, they know his or her secret identity. You can go all Tony Stark if you want, announce that you are Iron Man, and carry on as normal. Very few of the vigilante's abilities actually require you to maintain truly secret identities, and the only real hit you take is that you're a bit easier to find by magical means (though even this can be addressed with clever use of the Safe House Social Talent).
The book also elaborates on the intent behind numerous spells that often prove problematic for GMs in games where they want to have a focus on gritty investigation of mystery, such as the various detect spells, speak with dead, etc.
I think my biggest disappointments with the book, and the reason I can't give it 5 stars, lie in the feats and archetypes. I'll start with the feats, and a bit about why I see most of them as representative of missed opportunities.
To start with, Pathfinder's skill system is heavily dated. When Paizo brought it over from 3.5, they combined a few extraneous skills, but otherwise did little to update things, meaning the core area of the rules covering everything in the game that isn't casting spells or hitting things is now well over a decade old and out of date. Several skills don't even actually work, or work well, as written, have interactions you're just supposed to kind of assume or make up (Ride and Handle Animal are a mess, Stealth requires one to check out FAQs and blog posts online to use as intended, Bluff and Diplomacy have more than a few vague areas and inconsistencies, etc.), so what better book to address, update, and expand these core components of the game than a book about playing skill and intrigue heavy campaigns? Unfortunately, Paizo chose not to go that route, instead relying on feats to stretch skills over their gaps and issues, leading to many of the feats in the this book providing skill uses that I've seen GMs at hundreds of tables houserule as basic functions of those skills to begin with. Instead of formalizing intuitive uses of existing skills into their basic function, they added a feat tax to allow characters to do things many people already thought they could do. While there is a section in the book going over several of the vague areas in a few key skills, these are primarily common sense clarifications instead of the full address the skills could have used.
The archetypes, like many Paizo hardcovers, are all over the place. Some of them are interesting and dynamic, like the Masked Performer bard archetype, some show an attempt at embodying a cool and modern concept but fail to achieve that concept in the actual execution, like the Magical Child vigilante archetype, and some are just plain bad, so obviously terribly designed that you almost wonder if the person who wrote them has ever actually played Pathfinder, like the Brute vigilante archetype.
Now, don't let the above wall of negativity mislead you; there is a lot of great stuff in this book, including perhaps the most inspired and well-crafted class Paizo has ever produced, a class that introduces really interesting design concepts, plays with components of the class chassis we haven't seen classes treat as quite so malleable before, and is a genuinely fun and interesting class to play in and of itself. Despite many of the feats ranging from useless to frustrating, there are still quite a few that are interesting and viable, and while the archetypes are very hit or miss, that's generally true of Paizo books in general and probably shouldn't be held against this one in particular.
My final verdict on Ultimate Intrigue is 4 stars, and a strong recommendation to pick it up, if for no other reason than to add the Vigilante class to your game (though there definitely are other reasons to add this book to your collection).
No seriously. The vigilante class is freaking batman. Look at the art for chapter one and for the character. HE'S BATMAN. Of course they also have archetypes if you want to make Hulk, Sailor Moon, even He-Man. With the archetypes from other books the list goes on.
My favorite part, and I cannot wait to test this properly in a game, is the social combat. It works a lot like playing craps or roulette. You get a pool of Determination points which you use to place a bet then you roll off with your social skills check! Seriously it sounds like lots of fun!
In almost every case, a new spell, particularly a utility counter, "could" be on either the cleric or wizard spell list (particularly the wizard list if it isn't explicitly divine) because those two classes are generic enough spellcasters. However, I'm in agreement with you that sometimes, they shouldn't be. Having some number of spells found on only the more thematic lists for those spells makes those classes feel special and promotes teamwork (and potentially looking for NPC help), rather than just "the wizard handles everything". Cool things that work well with martial classes like the antipaladin and ranger make me happy. :)
In almost every case, a new spell, particularly a utility counter, "could" be on either the cleric or wizard spell list (particularly the wizard list if it isn't explicitly divine) because those two classes are generic enough spellcasters. However, I'm in agreement with you that sometimes, they shouldn't be. Having some number of spells found on only the more thematic lists for those spells makes those classes feel special and promotes teamwork (and potentially looking for NPC help), rather than just "the wizard handles everything". Cool things that work well with martial classes like the antipaladin and ranger make me happy. :)
Well, that's what UMD is for. ;)
Sure, though at that rate, everybody's on equal footing given enough of a bonus to the skill.
Mask Dweomer is Witch only...why it didn't go to Sor/Wiz and/or Bard is beyond me).
Sorc/Wiz/Bard have Magic Aura, while Witch doesn't...
They overlap somewhat, yet have differences (Magic Aura trumped by Identify, Mask Dweomer by Arcane Sight/Analyze Dweomer, Magic Aura for objects only but 1 casting covers all auras/spells on that object, Mask Dweomer only covers 1 spell per casting* but also applies to people/creatures, Mask Dweomer also doesn't work for non-spell magical auras)
I'm personally fine with Soc/Wiz and Witch approaches to magic having a slightly different functionality in this area.
Wiz and Witch talk shop: "You can do X!? Wait, you can't do Y!?"
It's been stated in one of the threads that they lose Divine Grace, plus the Immunities from things like Aura of Courage (though they get the same bonus they give to others from the auras, like +4 to saves vs. fear from Aura of Courage).
In exchange, they get the ability to spend two Smites and smite whoever they like, and a less restrictive Code of Conduct. They may get other stuff, too, but if so I don't think anyone has mentioned it.
It's been stated in one of the threads that they lose Divine Grace, plus the Immunities from things like Aura of Courage (though they get the same bonus they give to others from the auras, like +4 to saves vs. fear from Aura of Courage).
In exchange, they get the ability to spend two Smites and smite whoever they like, and a less restrictive Code of Conduct. They may get other stuff, too, but if so I don't think anyone has mentioned it.
This plus you lose divine health and get enhanced health, get smite evil at 2nd, lose channel energy, and lose Aura of Justice.
Every few months, I also try to read way farther down than is even humanly useful (to FAQs that only like 18 or fewer people noted) just to know what's on people's minds for my own edification
Every few months, I also try to read way farther down than is even humanly useful (to FAQs that only like 18 or fewer people noted) just to know what's on people's minds for my own edification
It's been stated in one of the threads that they lose Divine Grace, plus the Immunities from things like Aura of Courage (though they get the same bonus they give to others from the auras, like +4 to saves vs. fear from Aura of Courage).
In exchange, they get the ability to spend two Smites and smite whoever they like, and a less restrictive Code of Conduct. They may get other stuff, too, but if so I don't think anyone has mentioned it.
Not quite anyone- I believe it's any non-good individual.
It's been stated in one of the threads that they lose Divine Grace, plus the Immunities from things like Aura of Courage (though they get the same bonus they give to others from the auras, like +4 to saves vs. fear from Aura of Courage).
In exchange, they get the ability to spend two Smites and smite whoever they like, and a less restrictive Code of Conduct. They may get other stuff, too, but if so I don't think anyone has mentioned it.
Not quite anyone- I believe it's any non-good individual.
Finally, a crusader in the war against neutrality, standing firm in the front lines as the neutral hordes rush in screaming their battlecry "Eh, whatever."
It's been stated in one of the threads that they lose Divine Grace, plus the Immunities from things like Aura of Courage (though they get the same bonus they give to others from the auras, like +4 to saves vs. fear from Aura of Courage).
In exchange, they get the ability to spend two Smites and smite whoever they like, and a less restrictive Code of Conduct. They may get other stuff, too, but if so I don't think anyone has mentioned it.
Not quite anyone- I believe it's any non-good individual.
Finally, a crusader in the war against neutrality, standing firm in the front lines as the neutral hordes rush in screaming their battlecry "Eh, whatever."
Any replies regarding the specifics of the Cardinal archetype for clerics?
What does Cardinal give up for its new options? Beyond more skill points, does Cardinal gain anything?
My apologies if I've overlooked an earlier reply, but I saw nothing listed, thus far. Any feedback available?
Cardinal gives up medium armor and shield proficiency, spontaneous casting, one domain, and reduces BAB to 1/2 level in exchange for increased skills per level and additional class skills.
Any replies regarding the specifics of the Cardinal archetype for clerics?
What does Cardinal give up for its new options? Beyond more skill points, does Cardinal gain anything?
My apologies if I've overlooked an earlier reply, but I saw nothing listed, thus far. Any feedback available?
It's been discussed. They go to 6+Int Mod skills, gain some Class skills and lose medium armor proficiency, 1 Domain, spontaneous Cure Spells, and drop to 1/2 BAB.
So...terrible choice for a melee Cleric, but not too bad for a caster focused one who wants the skills.
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Wyrmfoe wrote:
What does Cardinal give up for its new options? Beyond more skill points, does Cardinal gain anything?
The Cardinal gains Bluff, Intimidate, Knowledge (geography), and Knowledge (local) as class skills in addition to more skill points, but that is it in terms of gains.
The Cardinal loses one domain, medium armor proficiency, and spontaneous casting and has the BAB of a wizard instead of a standard cleric.
I'd like to know more about warlock and specifically what happened with mystic bolts. In the second version of the playtest they felt a bit underwhelming; are they now a viable combat choice? What level do you gain access to them? Any other thoughts on them? I really like the idea of mystic bolt and am curious what the final version ended up looking like.
I'd like to know more about warlock and specifically what happened with mystic bolts. In the second version of the playtest they felt a bit underwhelming; are they now a viable combat choice? What level do you gain access to them? Any other thoughts on them? I really like the idea of mystic bolt and am curious what the final version ended up looking like.
The warlock now gets mystic bolts at 1st level, but they're not touch attacks initally. At 3rd level, they get to make one mystic bolt per round hit touch AC, and at 5th, all of them do. Furthermore, at 7th and every 6 levels afterwards, they get to pick a new damage type, so they'll eventually end up with all of them (acid, cold, electricity, and fire), which seems much more useful for dealing with resistance, though they're still probably in trouble with creatures that have uniform resistance to everything.
I'd like to know more about warlock and specifically what happened with mystic bolts. In the second version of the playtest they felt a bit underwhelming; are they now a viable combat choice? What level do you gain access to them? Any other thoughts on them? I really like the idea of mystic bolt and am curious what the final version ended up looking like.
The warlock now gets mystic bolts at 1st level, but they're not touch attacks initally. At 3rd level, they get to make one mystic bolt per round hit touch AC, and at 5th, all of them do. Furthermore, at 7th and every 6 levels afterwards, they get to pick a new damage type, so they'll eventually end up with all of them (acid, cold, electricity, and fire), which seems much more useful for dealing with resistance, though they're still probably in trouble with creatures that have uniform resistance to everything.
Edit: If only it wasn't a prepared caster...
How much damage do they deal? How does it scale? Can you choose to not make them touch attacks so that deadly aim works with them? Thanks!
Did this whole true seeing vs. mind blank thing get labeled as "No Response Required" some time in the past? It's not on the FAQ queue at all, and I wasn't aware it was considered in question. For what it's worth, as you predict with unerring tracker, we were operating under the assumption that mind blank's sweeping divination protections do cover spells like true seeing, though that's not an official FAQ. Please make a FAQ thread if you'd prefer something more official, though (or direct me to an older thread that was marked no response required, if there is one).
I don't mean to sound patronizing, but that issue has been around since D&D 3.0 era and hasn't been answered lol
EDIT: But moreso than that, the True Seeing vs Nondetection is the bigger issue.
I'd like to know more about warlock and specifically what happened with mystic bolts. In the second version of the playtest they felt a bit underwhelming; are they now a viable combat choice? What level do you gain access to them? Any other thoughts on them? I really like the idea of mystic bolt and am curious what the final version ended up looking like.
The warlock now gets mystic bolts at 1st level, but they're not touch attacks initally. At 3rd level, they get to make one mystic bolt per round hit touch AC, and at 5th, all of them do. Furthermore, at 7th and every 6 levels afterwards, they get to pick a new damage type, so they'll eventually end up with all of them (acid, cold, electricity, and fire), which seems much more useful for dealing with resistance, though they're still probably in trouble with creatures that have uniform resistance to everything.
Edit: If only it wasn't a prepared caster...
How much damage do they deal? How does it scale? Can you choose to not make them touch attacks so that deadly aim works with them? Thanks!
Lots of questions...
They deal 1d6 damage plus one point per every four levels, though you can still dual-wield them, and you can (and definitely should) get arcane strike as a special warlock vigilante talent that upgrades to allow adding weapon special abilities that specifically apply to mystic bolt, as per the playtest as I recall.
It says they can treat all of their mystic bolts as touch attacks, so I presume it is optional.
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Acrobatics is a Vigilante class skill. Vigilante Specialization (Avenger vs. Stalker) has no effect on class skills. You might be pleased to know that no Vigilante archetype in this book takes that skill away.
SO RELIEVED to see that!
My playtest avenger had to pick up the Reckless trait simply to jump better than the average fighter.
What kind of vigilante can't jump from rooftop to rooftop?!
Well more spells that counter spells that let you know who is actually an evil outsider that wants to hurt you. Remember Pathfinders, if you have one skill that skill is perception, if you have one trait that trait is seeker. Enemies are everywhere, check everyone. A little trust goes a long way, the less you use the further you will go.
Hmmm, I just started a subscription on a few things yesterday, this line being one of them. I can't seem to find the answer anywhere so figure I will ask here. Assuming my hard-copy ships within the next 1-7 business days like it was advertised will I gain access to the PDF then, or is it more likely since I didn't 'Pre-Order' the product that I will be waiting until the 30th or later?
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
John Ryan 783 wrote:
Hmmm, I just started a subscription on a few things yesterday, this line being one of them. I can't seem to find the answer anywhere so figure I will ask here. Assuming my hard-copy ships within the next 1-7 business days like it was advertised will I gain access to the PDF then, or is it more likely since I didn't 'Pre-Order' the product that I will be waiting until the 30th or later?
You can access the pdf when it ship. You only need to have a subscription not "pre-order" to have access to it.
That said I would expect to be waiting closer to 7 business days then 1. So, you may not be getting much earlier then the 30th.
Just wondering what people think of the Cardinal in comparison to the already available Cloistered Cleric archetype?
In terms of outcomes, the Cardinal gains Bluff and Intimidate over against the Cloistered Cleric, while the latter gains Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), and Knowledge (nature).
While the Cardinal gains an additional two skill points per level, the Cloistered Cleric gains a bonus equal to half class level on all Knowledge checks, plus a few other (admittedly minor) benefits to occasionally relevant situations (saves vs. symbols, aid another checks, Scribe Scroll feat, etc.).
In terms of costs, though, I'm not certain which is pays more for their trade-off. Both only gain one domain, so that's a wash. Both lose Medium Armor Proficiency, with the Cloistered Cleric also losing proficiency with shields and several weapons. On the other hand, the Cardinal loses more points of actual BAB.
Yet, it seems spellcasting is where both archetypes get hit most. Both only gain access to a single domain, so that's a wash between them. However, while the Cloistered Cleric loses a spell per level, the Cardinal loses spontaneous cure spells, which seems like a bigger deal, given the Cleric's usual (if cliched) role as party healer.
What does everyone think about comparisons of the two? Granted, the Cloistered Cleric is the more "knowledge-monkey" of the options, while the Cardinal is the more "party face" option, but are both equally beneficial to a "skills based" cleric build?
What (if anything) does each provide, functionally exclusive to itself, that the other does not? Are there more substantive avenues for play provided by the Cardinal that I am seemingly not seeing, which the Cloistered Cleric did not already, adequately address?
I'm considering a vigilante (or an archetype thereof) as a 1 level dip class for a martially oriented druid character in a home game.
Could somebody please tell me if this would be a good idea? For me to do this, the vigilante would need to have Heavy Armor Proficiency and Proficiency with all Martial Weapons. And something gained at 1st level that would be at least as useful as an extra feat.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
pauljathome wrote:
I'm considering a vigilante (or an archetype thereof) as a 1 level dip class for a martially oriented druid character in a home game.
Could somebody please tell me if this would be a good idea? For me to do this, the vigilante would need to have Heavy Armor Proficiency and Proficiency with all Martial Weapons. And something gained at 1st level that would be at least as useful as an extra feat.
The base vigilante are proficient in all Martial Weapons but not heavy armor. There is a Vigilante talent they can take to get it but they don't get Vigilante talents until 2nd level.
Also none of the archetypes give it.
As for "something gained at 1st level that would be at least as useful as an extra feat."
I would say that I think yes, but that would depend on how useful you think Dual identity and +4 to a skill is.
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Why would you want Heavy Armor Proficiency at 1st level? A 1st level character cannot afford it without a trait like Rich Parents, and I am not aware of any non-magical heavy armor that a Druid could wear anyway. I suppose you could just take the Armor Proficiency (Heavy) feat whenever you need it, though.
Why would you want Heavy Armor Proficiency at 1st level? A 1st level character cannot afford it without a trait like Rich Parents, and I am not aware of any non-magical heavy armor that a Druid could wear anyway. I suppose you could just take the Armor Proficiency (Heavy) feat whenever you need it, though.
I'm thinking of a 1 level dip for a druid. The proficiencies and feat (assuming fighter) are just about worth the dip for this character (he took the Animal Domain so he is already getting Boon Companion. Therefore "all" I lose are 1 level of spell progression and druidic power progression. The build is fairly feat starved which is why I'm at least contemplating the idea.
Dragonhide plate mail is the armour that I'd be getting.
Will probably decide to just eat the proficiency feats
Am I reading it wrong, or does studied spell allow someone to make a moderately difficult knowledge check to completely remove any bonus on saves, energy resistance, and DR not from a class level, item, or spell?
** spoiler omitted **
Looks that way to me! Pretty sweet, right?! Now how about a metamagic rod of this...
I agree that's what it does, but I don't think it's much better than "ok." For a +2 level you're at best adding 30 points of damage if you can make the knowledge check. That's slightly worse than an empowered 20d6 blast. For 20 points of resistance you're at the equivalent of empowering a 12d6 blast, and at 10 points and below it's definitely not worth it. You generally just want to learn empower. It does beat empower if you're expecting the target to make the save or you're throwing weak 10d6 capped spells at things with 30 points of resistance, but if you're expecting it to make the save or otherwise planning to do weak damage maybe cast something else.
Now if it got past immunity...
Bypassing energy resistance isn't the major concern for me. It's the bonus to saves granted by a target's race part. As far as I can tell, this means that for most monsters you can completely ignore any bonus to saves that they have with this since they only bonus they get to saves is from their race, meaning that they effectively are just rolling an unmodified D20 when making a save vs. a studied spell.
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FractalLaw wrote:
Slithery D wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
FractalLaw wrote:
Am I reading it wrong, or does studied spell allow someone to make a moderately difficult knowledge check to completely remove any bonus on saves, energy resistance, and DR not from a class level, item, or spell?
** spoiler omitted **
Looks that way to me! Pretty sweet, right?! Now how about a metamagic rod of this...
I agree that's what it does, but I don't think it's much better than "ok." For a +2 level you're at best adding 30 points of damage if you can make the knowledge check. That's slightly worse than an empowered 20d6 blast. For 20 points of resistance you're at the equivalent of empowering a 12d6 blast, and at 10 points and below it's definitely not worth it. You generally just want to learn empower. It does beat empower if you're expecting the target to make the save or you're throwing weak 10d6 capped spells at things with 30 points of resistance, but if you're expecting it to make the save or otherwise planning to do weak damage maybe cast something else.
Now if it got past immunity...
Bypassing energy resistance isn't the major concern for me. It's the bonus to saves granted by a target's race part. As far as I can tell, this means that for most monsters you can completely ignore any bonus to saves that they have with this since they only bonus they get to saves is from their race, meaning that they effectively are just rolling an unmodified D20 when making a save vs. a studied spell.
I don't think that is how it work. It says saving throws against the spell granted by the target’s race then goes on to give dwarf’s hardy ability and halfling luck ability as examples. So, they would get the normal save just not any extra race based plus.
Just wondering what people think of the Cardinal in comparison to the already available Cloistered Cleric archetype?
In terms of outcomes, the Cardinal gains Bluff and Intimidate over against the Cloistered Cleric, while the latter gains Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), and Knowledge (nature).
Class Skills isn't really big deal in PRPG, and are easily gained via Traits if need be.
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While the Cardinal gains an additional two skill points per level, the Cloistered Cleric gains a bonus equal to half class level on all Knowledge checks, plus a few other (admittedly minor) benefits to occasionally relevant situations (saves vs. symbols, aid another checks, Scribe Scroll feat, etc.).
I believe I previously posted my take on skill points, that the higher amounts have decreasing relative benefit (e.g. why you see complaints only about 2 rank classes, not 4 rank classes). Specifically in this case, the CC 1/2 class level bonus to Knowledge skills can pretty easily make up for difference of 2 ranks, at least if you plan on investing in 2 or more Knowledge skills. At higher levels, any character can flexibly select a new maxed out skill by swapping in a different Ioun Stone of INT +2 with associated skill boost, changeable with 24h preparation.
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Yet, it seems spellcasting is where both archetypes get hit most. Both only gain access to a single domain, so that's a wash between them. However, while the Cloistered Cleric loses a spell per level, the Cardinal loses spontaneous cure spells, which seems like a bigger deal, given the Cleric's usual (if cliched) role as party healer.
Honestly I think the loss of spontaneous Cures is less of a big deal than losing a spell slot, especially given that spells like Breath of Life don't qualify for Spontaneous Substitution. Remember that both Archetypes retain Channeling, so they don't need to rely on Cures, thus even if Spontaneous Cures was retained I would advise not using it and using your spell slots for other things.
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What does everyone think about comparisons of the two? Granted, the Cloistered Cleric is the more "knowledge-monkey" of the options, while the Cardinal is the more "party face" option, but are both equally beneficial to a "skills based" cleric build?
I think both are poor options, if anything I would say Cloistered Cleric offers more things of actual value, albeit having a stronger trade-off against Casting. To be clear, Cardinal doesn't offer any abilities to make it particularly good at being a "party face", above and beyond skill ranks, which are really just the minimum starting point. A Cardinal is no better at that than a vanilla Cleric who invests ranks in those skills (and gains Class Skill bonus via Trait if necessary).
Even Exalted PrC, which isn't particularly focused on "Intrigue", automatically grants +2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Perform (oratory) and gets at-will Detect [Alignments], as well as bonus Domain/SLAs which can further an "Intrigue" theme depending on selection.
As far as pursuing the "theme" of each Archetype, I would say you are better off skipping these Archetypes and taking Loremaster PrC. You get to keep 2 Domains (whose Domain spells automatically progress), and other benefits of vanilla Cleric (e.g. Armor, BAB). Loremaster gets 4 ranks/level, +1/2 PrC level to Knowledge checks, and gets other benefits every 2 levels, including 4 bonus ranks.
The only area where Loremaster loses out is higher level Domain Powers (other than Domain Spells) and Channel Energy, which isn't central to either Archetype's theme. Loss of higher level Domain Powers hurts, but you are getting the lower level Powers of two Domains instead of just one (if you use the Archetypes), while benefitting from 2 Domains' Spell Lists. I don't think Loremaster is particularly great or anything, but neither Archetype really seems much more compelling than it.
