magnuskn |
In almost every case, a new spell, particularly a utility counter, "could" be on either the cleric or wizard spell list (particularly the wizard list if it isn't explicitly divine) because those two classes are generic enough spellcasters. However, I'm in agreement with you that sometimes, they shouldn't be. Having some number of spells found on only the more thematic lists for those spells makes those classes feel special and promotes teamwork (and potentially looking for NPC help), rather than just "the wizard handles everything". Cool things that work well with martial classes like the antipaladin and ranger make me happy. :)
Well, that's what UMD is for. ;)
Mark Seifter Designer |
Mark Seifter wrote:In almost every case, a new spell, particularly a utility counter, "could" be on either the cleric or wizard spell list (particularly the wizard list if it isn't explicitly divine) because those two classes are generic enough spellcasters. However, I'm in agreement with you that sometimes, they shouldn't be. Having some number of spells found on only the more thematic lists for those spells makes those classes feel special and promotes teamwork (and potentially looking for NPC help), rather than just "the wizard handles everything". Cool things that work well with martial classes like the antipaladin and ranger make me happy. :)Well, that's what UMD is for. ;)
Sure, though at that rate, everybody's on equal footing given enough of a bonus to the skill.
Quandary |
Mask Dweomer is Witch only...why it didn't go to Sor/Wiz and/or Bard is beyond me).
Sorc/Wiz/Bard have Magic Aura, while Witch doesn't...
They overlap somewhat, yet have differences (Magic Aura trumped by Identify, Mask Dweomer by Arcane Sight/Analyze Dweomer, Magic Aura for objects only but 1 casting covers all auras/spells on that object, Mask Dweomer only covers 1 spell per casting* but also applies to people/creatures, Mask Dweomer also doesn't work for non-spell magical auras)I'm personally fine with Soc/Wiz and Witch approaches to magic having a slightly different functionality in this area.
Wiz and Witch talk shop: "You can do X!? Wait, you can't do Y!?"
Deadmanwalking |
So... What do the gray paladin lose?
It's been stated in one of the threads that they lose Divine Grace, plus the Immunities from things like Aura of Courage (though they get the same bonus they give to others from the auras, like +4 to saves vs. fear from Aura of Courage).
In exchange, they get the ability to spend two Smites and smite whoever they like, and a less restrictive Code of Conduct. They may get other stuff, too, but if so I don't think anyone has mentioned it.
doc the grey |
Manuelexar wrote:So... What do the gray paladin lose?
It's been stated in one of the threads that they lose Divine Grace, plus the Immunities from things like Aura of Courage (though they get the same bonus they give to others from the auras, like +4 to saves vs. fear from Aura of Courage).
In exchange, they get the ability to spend two Smites and smite whoever they like, and a less restrictive Code of Conduct. They may get other stuff, too, but if so I don't think anyone has mentioned it.
This plus you lose divine health and get enhanced health, get smite evil at 2nd, lose channel energy, and lose Aura of Justice.
djones |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mark Seifter wrote:Every few months, I also try to read way farther down than is even humanly useful (to FAQs that only like 18 or fewer people noted) just to know what's on people's minds for my own edificationSeriously?
You read them all?
How are you still sane?
Well THAT'S a pretty big assumption...
QuidEst |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Manuelexar wrote:So... What do the gray paladin lose?
It's been stated in one of the threads that they lose Divine Grace, plus the Immunities from things like Aura of Courage (though they get the same bonus they give to others from the auras, like +4 to saves vs. fear from Aura of Courage).
In exchange, they get the ability to spend two Smites and smite whoever they like, and a less restrictive Code of Conduct. They may get other stuff, too, but if so I don't think anyone has mentioned it.
Not quite anyone- I believe it's any non-good individual.
djones |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Deadmanwalking wrote:Not quite anyone- I believe it's any non-good individual.Manuelexar wrote:So... What do the gray paladin lose?
It's been stated in one of the threads that they lose Divine Grace, plus the Immunities from things like Aura of Courage (though they get the same bonus they give to others from the auras, like +4 to saves vs. fear from Aura of Courage).
In exchange, they get the ability to spend two Smites and smite whoever they like, and a less restrictive Code of Conduct. They may get other stuff, too, but if so I don't think anyone has mentioned it.
Finally, a crusader in the war against neutrality, standing firm in the front lines as the neutral hordes rush in screaming their battlecry "Eh, whatever."
Gisher |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
QuidEst wrote:Deadmanwalking wrote:Not quite anyone- I believe it's any non-good individual.Manuelexar wrote:So... What do the gray paladin lose?
It's been stated in one of the threads that they lose Divine Grace, plus the Immunities from things like Aura of Courage (though they get the same bonus they give to others from the auras, like +4 to saves vs. fear from Aura of Courage).
In exchange, they get the ability to spend two Smites and smite whoever they like, and a less restrictive Code of Conduct. They may get other stuff, too, but if so I don't think anyone has mentioned it.
Finally, a crusader in the war against neutrality, standing firm in the front lines as the neutral hordes rush in screaming their battlecry "Eh, whatever."
donato Contributor |
Any replies regarding the specifics of the Cardinal archetype for clerics?
What does Cardinal give up for its new options? Beyond more skill points, does Cardinal gain anything?
My apologies if I've overlooked an earlier reply, but I saw nothing listed, thus far. Any feedback available?
Cardinal gives up medium armor and shield proficiency, spontaneous casting, one domain, and reduces BAB to 1/2 level in exchange for increased skills per level and additional class skills.
Deadmanwalking |
Any replies regarding the specifics of the Cardinal archetype for clerics?
What does Cardinal give up for its new options? Beyond more skill points, does Cardinal gain anything?
My apologies if I've overlooked an earlier reply, but I saw nothing listed, thus far. Any feedback available?
It's been discussed. They go to 6+Int Mod skills, gain some Class skills and lose medium armor proficiency, 1 Domain, spontaneous Cure Spells, and drop to 1/2 BAB.
So...terrible choice for a melee Cleric, but not too bad for a caster focused one who wants the skills.
EDIT: Ninja'd. Darn.
David knott 242 |
What does Cardinal give up for its new options? Beyond more skill points, does Cardinal gain anything?
The Cardinal gains Bluff, Intimidate, Knowledge (geography), and Knowledge (local) as class skills in addition to more skill points, but that is it in terms of gains.
The Cardinal loses one domain, medium armor proficiency, and spontaneous casting and has the BAB of a wizard instead of a standard cleric.
MKV93 |
I'd like to know more about warlock and specifically what happened with mystic bolts. In the second version of the playtest they felt a bit underwhelming; are they now a viable combat choice? What level do you gain access to them? Any other thoughts on them? I really like the idea of mystic bolt and am curious what the final version ended up looking like.
Luthorne |
I'd like to know more about warlock and specifically what happened with mystic bolts. In the second version of the playtest they felt a bit underwhelming; are they now a viable combat choice? What level do you gain access to them? Any other thoughts on them? I really like the idea of mystic bolt and am curious what the final version ended up looking like.
The warlock now gets mystic bolts at 1st level, but they're not touch attacks initally. At 3rd level, they get to make one mystic bolt per round hit touch AC, and at 5th, all of them do. Furthermore, at 7th and every 6 levels afterwards, they get to pick a new damage type, so they'll eventually end up with all of them (acid, cold, electricity, and fire), which seems much more useful for dealing with resistance, though they're still probably in trouble with creatures that have uniform resistance to everything.
Edit: If only it wasn't a prepared caster...
MKV93 |
MKV93 wrote:I'd like to know more about warlock and specifically what happened with mystic bolts. In the second version of the playtest they felt a bit underwhelming; are they now a viable combat choice? What level do you gain access to them? Any other thoughts on them? I really like the idea of mystic bolt and am curious what the final version ended up looking like.The warlock now gets mystic bolts at 1st level, but they're not touch attacks initally. At 3rd level, they get to make one mystic bolt per round hit touch AC, and at 5th, all of them do. Furthermore, at 7th and every 6 levels afterwards, they get to pick a new damage type, so they'll eventually end up with all of them (acid, cold, electricity, and fire), which seems much more useful for dealing with resistance, though they're still probably in trouble with creatures that have uniform resistance to everything.
Edit: If only it wasn't a prepared caster...
How much damage do they deal? How does it scale? Can you choose to not make them touch attacks so that deadly aim works with them? Thanks!
Barachiel Shina |
Did this whole true seeing vs. mind blank thing get labeled as "No Response Required" some time in the past? It's not on the FAQ queue at all, and I wasn't aware it was considered in question. For what it's worth, as you predict with unerring tracker, we were operating under the assumption that mind blank's sweeping divination protections do cover spells like true seeing, though that's not an official FAQ. Please make a FAQ thread if you'd prefer something more official, though (or direct me to an older thread that was marked no response required, if there is one).
I don't mean to sound patronizing, but that issue has been around since D&D 3.0 era and hasn't been answered lol
EDIT: But moreso than that, the True Seeing vs Nondetection is the bigger issue.
Luthorne |
Luthorne wrote:How much damage do they deal? How does it scale? Can you choose to not make them touch attacks so that deadly aim works with them? Thanks!MKV93 wrote:I'd like to know more about warlock and specifically what happened with mystic bolts. In the second version of the playtest they felt a bit underwhelming; are they now a viable combat choice? What level do you gain access to them? Any other thoughts on them? I really like the idea of mystic bolt and am curious what the final version ended up looking like.The warlock now gets mystic bolts at 1st level, but they're not touch attacks initally. At 3rd level, they get to make one mystic bolt per round hit touch AC, and at 5th, all of them do. Furthermore, at 7th and every 6 levels afterwards, they get to pick a new damage type, so they'll eventually end up with all of them (acid, cold, electricity, and fire), which seems much more useful for dealing with resistance, though they're still probably in trouble with creatures that have uniform resistance to everything.
Edit: If only it wasn't a prepared caster...
Lots of questions...
They deal 1d6 damage plus one point per every four levels, though you can still dual-wield them, and you can (and definitely should) get arcane strike as a special warlock vigilante talent that upgrades to allow adding weapon special abilities that specifically apply to mystic bolt, as per the playtest as I recall.
It says they can treat all of their mystic bolts as touch attacks, so I presume it is optional.
David knott 242 |
Acrobatics is a Vigilante class skill. Vigilante Specialization (Avenger vs. Stalker) has no effect on class skills. You might be pleased to know that no Vigilante archetype in this book takes that skill away.
Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
Götz Ironhand |
Well more spells that counter spells that let you know who is actually an evil outsider that wants to hurt you. Remember Pathfinders, if you have one skill that skill is perception, if you have one trait that trait is seeker. Enemies are everywhere, check everyone. A little trust goes a long way, the less you use the further you will go.
John Ryan 783 |
Hmmm, I just started a subscription on a few things yesterday, this line being one of them. I can't seem to find the answer anywhere so figure I will ask here. Assuming my hard-copy ships within the next 1-7 business days like it was advertised will I gain access to the PDF then, or is it more likely since I didn't 'Pre-Order' the product that I will be waiting until the 30th or later?
Azouth |
Hmmm, I just started a subscription on a few things yesterday, this line being one of them. I can't seem to find the answer anywhere so figure I will ask here. Assuming my hard-copy ships within the next 1-7 business days like it was advertised will I gain access to the PDF then, or is it more likely since I didn't 'Pre-Order' the product that I will be waiting until the 30th or later?
You can access the pdf when it ship. You only need to have a subscription not "pre-order" to have access to it.
That said I would expect to be waiting closer to 7 business days then 1. So, you may not be getting much earlier then the 30th.
Wyrmfoe |
Just wondering what people think of the Cardinal in comparison to the already available Cloistered Cleric archetype?
In terms of outcomes, the Cardinal gains Bluff and Intimidate over against the Cloistered Cleric, while the latter gains Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), and Knowledge (nature).
While the Cardinal gains an additional two skill points per level, the Cloistered Cleric gains a bonus equal to half class level on all Knowledge checks, plus a few other (admittedly minor) benefits to occasionally relevant situations (saves vs. symbols, aid another checks, Scribe Scroll feat, etc.).
In terms of costs, though, I'm not certain which is pays more for their trade-off. Both only gain one domain, so that's a wash. Both lose Medium Armor Proficiency, with the Cloistered Cleric also losing proficiency with shields and several weapons. On the other hand, the Cardinal loses more points of actual BAB.
Yet, it seems spellcasting is where both archetypes get hit most. Both only gain access to a single domain, so that's a wash between them. However, while the Cloistered Cleric loses a spell per level, the Cardinal loses spontaneous cure spells, which seems like a bigger deal, given the Cleric's usual (if cliched) role as party healer.
What does everyone think about comparisons of the two? Granted, the Cloistered Cleric is the more "knowledge-monkey" of the options, while the Cardinal is the more "party face" option, but are both equally beneficial to a "skills based" cleric build?
What (if anything) does each provide, functionally exclusive to itself, that the other does not? Are there more substantive avenues for play provided by the Cardinal that I am seemingly not seeing, which the Cloistered Cleric did not already, adequately address?
pauljathome |
I'm considering a vigilante (or an archetype thereof) as a 1 level dip class for a martially oriented druid character in a home game.
Could somebody please tell me if this would be a good idea? For me to do this, the vigilante would need to have Heavy Armor Proficiency and Proficiency with all Martial Weapons. And something gained at 1st level that would be at least as useful as an extra feat.
Azouth |
I'm considering a vigilante (or an archetype thereof) as a 1 level dip class for a martially oriented druid character in a home game.
Could somebody please tell me if this would be a good idea? For me to do this, the vigilante would need to have Heavy Armor Proficiency and Proficiency with all Martial Weapons. And something gained at 1st level that would be at least as useful as an extra feat.
The base vigilante are proficient in all Martial Weapons but not heavy armor. There is a Vigilante talent they can take to get it but they don't get Vigilante talents until 2nd level.
Also none of the archetypes give it.
As for "something gained at 1st level that would be at least as useful as an extra feat."
I would say that I think yes, but that would depend on how useful you think Dual identity and +4 to a skill is.
David knott 242 |
Why would you want Heavy Armor Proficiency at 1st level? A 1st level character cannot afford it without a trait like Rich Parents, and I am not aware of any non-magical heavy armor that a Druid could wear anyway. I suppose you could just take the Armor Proficiency (Heavy) feat whenever you need it, though.
pauljathome |
Thanks for the replies.
Why would you want Heavy Armor Proficiency at 1st level? A 1st level character cannot afford it without a trait like Rich Parents, and I am not aware of any non-magical heavy armor that a Druid could wear anyway. I suppose you could just take the Armor Proficiency (Heavy) feat whenever you need it, though.
I'm thinking of a 1 level dip for a druid. The proficiencies and feat (assuming fighter) are just about worth the dip for this character (he took the Animal Domain so he is already getting Boon Companion. Therefore "all" I lose are 1 level of spell progression and druidic power progression. The build is fairly feat starved which is why I'm at least contemplating the idea.
Dragonhide plate mail is the armour that I'd be getting.
Will probably decide to just eat the proficiency feats
FractalLaw |
Fourshadow wrote:FractalLaw wrote:Looks that way to me! Pretty sweet, right?! Now how about a metamagic rod of this...Am I reading it wrong, or does studied spell allow someone to make a moderately difficult knowledge check to completely remove any bonus on saves, energy resistance, and DR not from a class level, item, or spell?
** spoiler omitted **
I agree that's what it does, but I don't think it's much better than "ok." For a +2 level you're at best adding 30 points of damage if you can make the knowledge check. That's slightly worse than an empowered 20d6 blast. For 20 points of resistance you're at the equivalent of empowering a 12d6 blast, and at 10 points and below it's definitely not worth it. You generally just want to learn empower. It does beat empower if you're expecting the target to make the save or you're throwing weak 10d6 capped spells at things with 30 points of resistance, but if you're expecting it to make the save or otherwise planning to do weak damage maybe cast something else.
Now if it got past immunity...
Bypassing energy resistance isn't the major concern for me. It's the bonus to saves granted by a target's race part. As far as I can tell, this means that for most monsters you can completely ignore any bonus to saves that they have with this since they only bonus they get to saves is from their race, meaning that they effectively are just rolling an unmodified D20 when making a save vs. a studied spell.
Azouth |
Slithery D wrote:Bypassing energy resistance isn't the major concern for me. It's the bonus to saves granted by a target's race part. As far as I can tell, this means that for most monsters you can completely ignore any bonus to saves that they have with this since they only bonus they get to saves is from their race, meaning that they effectively are just rolling an unmodified D20 when making a save vs. a studied spell.Fourshadow wrote:FractalLaw wrote:Looks that way to me! Pretty sweet, right?! Now how about a metamagic rod of this...Am I reading it wrong, or does studied spell allow someone to make a moderately difficult knowledge check to completely remove any bonus on saves, energy resistance, and DR not from a class level, item, or spell?
** spoiler omitted **
I agree that's what it does, but I don't think it's much better than "ok." For a +2 level you're at best adding 30 points of damage if you can make the knowledge check. That's slightly worse than an empowered 20d6 blast. For 20 points of resistance you're at the equivalent of empowering a 12d6 blast, and at 10 points and below it's definitely not worth it. You generally just want to learn empower. It does beat empower if you're expecting the target to make the save or you're throwing weak 10d6 capped spells at things with 30 points of resistance, but if you're expecting it to make the save or otherwise planning to do weak damage maybe cast something else.
Now if it got past immunity...
I don't think that is how it work. It says saving throws against the spell granted by the target’s race then goes on to give dwarf’s hardy ability and halfling luck ability as examples. So, they would get the normal save just not any extra race based plus.
Quandary |
Just wondering what people think of the Cardinal in comparison to the already available Cloistered Cleric archetype?
In terms of outcomes, the Cardinal gains Bluff and Intimidate over against the Cloistered Cleric, while the latter gains Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), and Knowledge (nature).
Class Skills isn't really big deal in PRPG, and are easily gained via Traits if need be.
While the Cardinal gains an additional two skill points per level, the Cloistered Cleric gains a bonus equal to half class level on all Knowledge checks, plus a few other (admittedly minor) benefits to occasionally relevant situations (saves vs. symbols, aid another checks, Scribe Scroll feat, etc.).
I believe I previously posted my take on skill points, that the higher amounts have decreasing relative benefit (e.g. why you see complaints only about 2 rank classes, not 4 rank classes). Specifically in this case, the CC 1/2 class level bonus to Knowledge skills can pretty easily make up for difference of 2 ranks, at least if you plan on investing in 2 or more Knowledge skills. At higher levels, any character can flexibly select a new maxed out skill by swapping in a different Ioun Stone of INT +2 with associated skill boost, changeable with 24h preparation.
Yet, it seems spellcasting is where both archetypes get hit most. Both only gain access to a single domain, so that's a wash between them. However, while the Cloistered Cleric loses a spell per level, the Cardinal loses spontaneous cure spells, which seems like a bigger deal, given the Cleric's usual (if cliched) role as party healer.
Honestly I think the loss of spontaneous Cures is less of a big deal than losing a spell slot, especially given that spells like Breath of Life don't qualify for Spontaneous Substitution. Remember that both Archetypes retain Channeling, so they don't need to rely on Cures, thus even if Spontaneous Cures was retained I would advise not using it and using your spell slots for other things.
What does everyone think about comparisons of the two? Granted, the Cloistered Cleric is the more "knowledge-monkey" of the options, while the Cardinal is the more "party face" option, but are both equally beneficial to a "skills based" cleric build?
I think both are poor options, if anything I would say Cloistered Cleric offers more things of actual value, albeit having a stronger trade-off against Casting. To be clear, Cardinal doesn't offer any abilities to make it particularly good at being a "party face", above and beyond skill ranks, which are really just the minimum starting point. A Cardinal is no better at that than a vanilla Cleric who invests ranks in those skills (and gains Class Skill bonus via Trait if necessary).
Even Exalted PrC, which isn't particularly focused on "Intrigue", automatically grants +2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Perform (oratory) and gets at-will Detect [Alignments], as well as bonus Domain/SLAs which can further an "Intrigue" theme depending on selection.
As far as pursuing the "theme" of each Archetype, I would say you are better off skipping these Archetypes and taking Loremaster PrC. You get to keep 2 Domains (whose Domain spells automatically progress), and other benefits of vanilla Cleric (e.g. Armor, BAB). Loremaster gets 4 ranks/level, +1/2 PrC level to Knowledge checks, and gets other benefits every 2 levels, including 4 bonus ranks.
The only area where Loremaster loses out is higher level Domain Powers (other than Domain Spells) and Channel Energy, which isn't central to either Archetype's theme. Loss of higher level Domain Powers hurts, but you are getting the lower level Powers of two Domains instead of just one (if you use the Archetypes), while benefitting from 2 Domains' Spell Lists. I don't think Loremaster is particularly great or anything, but neither Archetype really seems much more compelling than it.
David knott 242 |
Rysky wrote:Yeah, but there are alternate low level feats like torch-bearer or groom.Draco Bahamut wrote:Missed oportunity: variant leadership feat called Sidekick, with a cohort that have an alternate identity too.Um, take Leadership and have your Cohort be a Vigilante?
The Recruits feat lets you head an entire super team, although of course only one of them can adventure with you at a time.
Rysky |
Rysky wrote:Yeah, but there are alternate low level feats like torch-bearer or groom.Draco Bahamut wrote:Missed oportunity: variant leadership feat called Sidekick, with a cohort that have an alternate identity too.Um, take Leadership and have your Cohort be a Vigilante?
Oh! Okies.