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Is Ultimate Intrigue allowed?


Based on your previous classes, you haven't played an enchanter...

So why not Aromaphile Mesmerist Ghoran?

Be a delicious and fragrant piece of fruit that can charm a whole room!

Since you'll have pretty good Charisma, you can qualify for the Spelleater feats (Greater and Spellmirror) which are cool additions to have at low levels.


Hi Blue!

Twilight Sage is an Arcanist specialization archetype, basically forcing you into certain options for a bit of extra power.

For 1st level, depends on your race, but in most cases, you can't go wrong with Improved Initiative.


it's not unusable, but it's very hard to make it work and it's never going to be very efficient.

You should recommend the Slayer class, which has the Assassinate as a Advanced Slayer Talent -- DC is similar [half level + INT], but the Studied Target feature increases the DC significantly.


I see no problem with that party. I do believe you should optimize for the setting to minimize the impact of lacking a caster.

For example, the Paladin could go Pearl Diver for archetype, and lose the need to use magic for breathing and underwater mobility.

Similarly, I think archetypes for Gunslinger like Scatter Gunner or Firebrand become more attractive if you lack an evoker.


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I will repeat my suggestion of Halcyon Druid.

It doesn't have companions, summons.

It has full level casting.

Prepared casting.

Lots of skill bonuses.


ASOIAF has exploding damage dice, that should be noted.


You don't need a carbon copy. As the campaign goes along, this character will surely develop in unforeseen ways. Maybe class will be a divergence, but that would only be the first one.

Also draconic Oracle is probably the best choice.


Nosta1300 wrote:

@ Secret Wizard - Is that a particular that includes vital strike?

or are you just saying i could use it cause i'm two handing?

I kinda like the idea of gaining true strike via mythic past life and using Feavor to quicken it for vital strike

It's the Weapon of the Chosen featline (Improved, Greater).

I would avoid the stupid Samurai cheese proposed by Slim Jim, sounds like you miss out on the best parts of Warpriest for no benefit at all.


Slim Jim is this thread's villain :P

By the way, if you go katana 2H, you could certainly go for the Vital Strike build.


Yes. Eldritch Knight builds will have access to 9th level spells. For this reason, they make for excellent shapeshifters, able to make a great use of things like form of the dragon.

Other than that... I don't think they have much going on really.

There are other cool gishes out there too, Kinetic Knight is fun.


JiaYou wrote:
I agree that Nature Fang is awesome, but I'd be careful of going this way and using an animal companion...I think it would be potentially overpowered, especially with one of the stronger animal companions. It might be better to go with a domain for extra spellcasting and requiring you to work more in tandem with your allies.

companions are never, ever OP.

domain is usually better when the frontline is crowded for sure though.


Honestly, Weapon Focus et al are not really that good as feats to start with. You have MUCH better things to do with Fighter feats.

Fighter works better when you can use just one Weapon Training - look at the ]Hunter build here.


Narrowascent wrote:


So as an Aasimar I do not get two Feat's at the beggining. So out of PA, Toughness, and Iron will I will have to drop one or push them down the line

Yes, but with Aasimar, you can go Angelkin for +STR +CHA, meaning that you could start off with 11+2 CHA... and 12 WIS.

This makes your Will saves a little higher, reducing the pressure for Iron Will.


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Yeah, play a Slayer or Ilsuryan Ranger


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Just noting Halcyon Druid has no companion or pet.


For feats, depends on point buy. On 20 PB, you could do...

S15+2 D14 C14 I10 W14 CH8

But assuming the first loadout...

LV1. Toughness
LV3. Quick Draw
LV4. Ranger Combat Style feat (TWF), +1 STR
LV5. Accomplished Sneak Attacker

You can also look into investing in your animal companion.

And Shillelagh is your friend to turn unassuming pieces of wood into brutal killing machines.


Halcyon Druid!

1. All the good Druid spell stuff.

2. Arcane bond for more casting.

3. Access to a large amount of [good] descriptor spells to face undead and evil outsiders.

4. Access to wizard spells to add whatever your party needs.

5. With 25 point buy, you can also invest in CHA for Fey Spell Lore to have a larger arsenal.

6. With 25 point buy, you can invest in all your different Knowledge skills.

7. Go Human and get a big FCB bonus to Diplomacy/Intimidate!

8. Go Human with Unstoppable Magic for better aggressive casting!


Have you considered other options?

For example, a [Military Tradition] Human can get proficiency with katanas and wakizashi, and then you can move into Nature Fang Druid to get TWF feats through Ranger Combat Style feats.

You can also get a cool Wolf buddy, and you have access to all the Druid goodstuff.

You could play a bit with the whole "fought with a wooden oar", and craft your weapons made with wood enhanced by your druid powers too.


If you are considering casters... Witch Watcher? It stacks with both Seducer and Rethorician.

Nobody mentioned Witchguard Ranger either.


I'm with Dasrak here –

UnMonk + Empathic Diplomat sounds like a good combo - and then fact that your persuasiveness comes alongside a low CHA is very butler-like. You should be by all means detestable, but your irreproachable demeanour causes others to comply with your requests.

That being said, High Guardian Fighter with the proper feats is super good.


Smallfoot wrote:
JiaYou wrote:
Nature Fang is nice because you can add your Studied Target bonuses to your spell DCs.
That would be awesome, but how do you get that? I'm reading the Studied Target description: "The DCs of slayer class abilities against that opponent increase by 1." Abilities like spell casting that don't come from the slayer class would seem to be excluded.

You'd replace all instances of "class X" for "class Y", so it'd say "the DC of druid class abilities".


Early on with STR 10, as long as your attack is good, you can rely on the damage of Blade of Mercy + a dagger + a damaging Judgement + damage from a spell.

That's basically the basis of crossbow Inquisitors!


5-foot radius should strictly be 4 squares.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:


It's the main reason to play CHA on a Cavalier. It increases your daily Challenges by X times your CHA, where X is your regular amount of challenges.
Spoken like someone who has played the archetype before, learned how it games out in actual play, then learned how to bolster a vulnerability.

Sadly never got to play a Green Knight ):

Still looking for a chance!

But I've used ChCh on three other Cavs (Qadiran Horselord, Spellscar Drifter, Emissary) and I swear by it.


Slim Jim wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Here's a sample build on 20 PB:

Race: Human, Heart of the Fey
S16+2 D12 C14 I10 W10 CH13

Traits: Carefully Hidden, Near-Death Experience

Feats and stuff:
LV1. Power Attack, Toughness
LV3. Iron Will
LV4. +1 CHA
LV5. Shield Focus (buckler)
LV6. Unhindering Shield
LV7. Chain Challenge
LV8. +1 STR
LV9. Improved Critical (falchion)
LV11. Critical Focus
LV12. +1 STR, start getting Critical feats

Why are you raising charisma at 4th? That's a dump-stat for cavaliers (including the Green Knight archetype), and you're not taking any feats that utilize it (i.e., such as for intimidation tactics). Toughness and Iron Will you could replace just by being a dwarf instead of a human.

Chain Challenge.

It's like the fifth time I mention it this thread :P

It's the main reason to play CHA on a Cavalier. It increases your daily Challenges by X times your CHA, where X is your regular amount of challenges.


Just to add one more option, there are Spirit Walker Mesmerists, which specialise in controlling undead.


avr wrote:
The green knight gets to act between zero and negative con HP, but honestly isn't that great otherwise until very high level. A barbarian (w/raging vitality as a safety net) is solidly better IMO. An alchemist with spontaneous healing is a contender there too and is more interesting otherwise.

Barbs don't get Order of the Green to wriggity wreck undead. You get to reroll your first attack against any target you Challenge, deal a ton of damage, and slice off heads.

The build is NOT just Raging Vitality or whatever.

Also, it has good AC – as opposed to the Barb.

Narrowascent wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Narrowascent wrote:

Wow you guys thanks for all of the ideas. Really appreciate the help and response. Will check it out. The green knight is that an archetype of the Cavalier?

Yeah...really ridiculously survivable

This is really good since I always get myself into huge messes. Any suggestion on an interesting race for the Green Knight Cav.? I can't do anything NE or CE

Probably the best race for Green Knight Cavalier is Aasimar, because of their Favored Class Bonus that grants +1/4 damage on Challenge. No other classes have a good bonus like that.

Also, Aasimars can get +2 STR/CHA from racial bonuses, which means they get more damage AND they can get more mileage out of the Chain Challenge feat.

The other good race is Dwarf, which gets MORE damage to targets of a challenge (+1/2 for FCB) and has access to all sorts of cool stuff like Steel Soul feat and Barrow Warden for a racial.
However, Dwarves with a negative CHA don't get a lot of usage out of Chain Challenge...


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Be a pimp ass Green Knight Cavalier.

A) You are basically immortal.

B) Order of the Green allows you to attack twice vs undead/aberrations, deal extra damage to undead/aberrations, and get a ton of bonuses to track undead/aberrations.

C) Did I mention that things you kill get automatically sanctified so suck on that stupid ass undead?

D) You get Stalwart, immunity to disease, poison and infestations.

E) EVERYTHING IS A VORPAL WEAPON.

F) You can talk to animals, that's neat.

[EDIT]
Here's a sample build on 20 PB:

Race: Human, Heart of the Fey
S16+2 D12 C14 I10 W10 CH13

Traits: Carefully Hidden, Near-Death Experience

Feats and stuff:
LV1. Power Attack, Toughness
LV3. Iron Will
LV4. +1 CHA
LV5. Shield Focus (buckler)
LV6. Unhindering Shield
LV7. Chain Challenge
LV8. +1 STR
LV9. Improved Critical (falchion)
LV11. Critical Focus
LV12. +1 STR, start getting Critical feats


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Highly recommend against that point buy.

Stunting STR prevents you from carrying useful items like a crossbow/shortbow, and good armor like chain mail.

Further, there is no need to dump CHA aggressively, you still get mileage out of it.

That being said:

I think you should consider Sanctified Slayer as an archetype, because it gives you access to the Menacing Combat Style, which means you'll be able to combine Enforcer's ability to intimidate with Shatter Defenses!

Also:

Don't do the Fate's Favored + Tattoo cheese, it's boring and people will think you are lame.

Here's what I'd do for a Human:

S10 D16+2 C14 I10 W15 CH8

For traits, pick up Blade of Mercy + Armor Expert

Slap a chain shirt and a scimitar, get a good crossbow, and you'd be good.

I don't think Heart of the Fey is that good honestly, for Inquisitors. I think it's best for Fighters. I think you'll get more mileage of Imposter-Wary for more skills and a bonus against illusions!


This is not UnMonk vs CRB Monk.

This is whether Stunning Fist is better for UnMonk, in terms of power, than it is for the CRB Monk.


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sounds like the player, not the character, is at issue here

also, target touch AC.


Not being a follower of Lamashtu or Zon-Kuthon as this build is outrageous.

I think I would like a Scarred/Sensei Monk + Verminous Hunter, applying the Leech Animal Focus to your grapples so you can suck the blood of your enemies while you spread your bones and skin over them.

You can add a vermin companion with something awful like the Accursed Companion archetype, with Rabid Vomit and Festering Flesh perhaps.


not to mention, seducer witch kicks ass


Wonderstell wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

****

Secret Wizard wrote:

For CRB Monk:

You literally have no good choices for STR Monks unless you ignore WIS and go with Sohei.

Okay, so you believe that no Str-based CMonks are viable except Sohei. And all these Sohei apparently dump Wisdom. That's definitely an opinion.

But what I wanted was for you to show me the differences in point buy that would allow Stunning Fist to become so much better for a UnMonk. Saying that strength CMonks are all bad doesn't really help you prove anything.

I can definitely see that you could squeeze another +1 to the save DC out of lowering Con from a 14 to 12 if you really wanted to. But that +1 DC isn't magically gonna make Stunning Fist into the best class feature in the game.

Why we're having this conversation is because some of your ratings implies you think Stunning Fist is worth more than a feat. Which it only is for a specific type of build, and then mostly for skipping prerequisites.

My argument is that +1 DC and higher attack bonus make it more of a valuable tool.

The problem of CRB Monk's Stunning Fist is wasted attempts + bad DC.

UnMonk has a) higher attack all the time (+2 vs CRB while flurrying), b) Spinning Kick, which make it better at hitting.

UnMonk also has more incentives towards higher WIS, so better DC.

In combination, that means Stunning Fist becomes much more viable, and not just "a feat". It's a BAB +8 feat that you get for free, and you get to apply more and more conditions with it as you level up.

It becomes something that, if traded off, COSTS something from the build.

Black Asp is an example for sure. You can now spend money on poisons, which is nice, but Stunning Fist will outscale poisons quite handily, more enemies are weak to it than they are to poison, and one single failed throw is all you need to get an enemy off the playing field.
Is that a free trade that you make at 0 Power?


Drow-Blooded gives you Darkvision and light blindness, but stacks with Reflexive Improvisation.

Alternatively! If you are playing a 1H build, Possessed Hand into Hand's Sight also works.

Finally, I just wanted to say it's pretty odd for an Investigator to have an use for Reflexive Improvisation... you have so many skill points to use that you probably won't have untrained skills.


Wonderstell wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

1. Exactly. CRB Monks need 16 CON to equivalent HP to a 12 CON UnMonk. Given that you also have higher incentives to lean towards STR, and by virtue of how the PB system works, you are more inclined to invest in WIS for defence, which means better Stunning Fist DCs. CRB Monks usually preferred to get massive DEX at the expense of everything, or went with Sohei so they didn't care about WIS.

EDIT: Oh, and UnMonks have Spinning Kick, which allows them to ensure their stunning fist connects.

You mean 14 Con, right? Most people don't play with maximized hit dice, and certainly not PFS. If we take a standard 20 PB spread for a Str CMonk, what changes are made to make Stunning Fist that much better?

Str 16+2, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7

Even in your theoretical example, the CMonk's wisdom shouldn't be lower than 12. So maybe +1 to Stunning Fist's DC, but more likely the same Wisdom.

***

The archetypes replacing Stunning Fist are obviously bad for Dragon Style builds, but there are other style paths to take. It could be useful to note that you lose stunning fist, but rating the archetypes on the idea that every build is using Dragon Style won't hold up.

For UnMonk:

Why 12 INT? Go with 15 WIS, pop that 4th level +1 there, gives you more ki, more AC, more DC.
Plus, I'd highly prefer Dual Talent Human for +2 STR and WIS.

For CRB Monk:
You literally have no good choices for STR Monks unless you ignore WIS and go with Sohei.
Even if you played a Monk with 19 starting DEX, you'd still be behind on attack bonus or damage (due to Flurry's -2 or not spending resources on damage).

Bottomline:
CRB Monks have a ton of pressure on CON and DEX, and the one that doesn't have that much pressure (Sohei), have less incentive to get WIS.
UnMonks have a lot more leeway and incentive to get STR and WIS, and have Spinning Kick to ensure hits.
Ergo, Stunning Fist is better for UnMonks.


Wonderstell wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

1. Unlike CRB Monks, UnMonks usually have good enough WIS that enemies COULD fail the roll, particularly casters. A CR 6 caster NPC usually has +3 or +4 Fort.

2. But most importantly, Stunning Fist is a prereq to Dragon Ferocity.

1. How so? I understand they have a higher incentive because of their weak will save, but unless the UnMonk dumps Con because they have a higher hit dice I don't see why their Wis should differ.

2. Which is a really bad trade if you were taking that specific style, but arguably worse overall for the UnMonk who normally has 1.5x Str with weapon flurry attacks.

1. Exactly. CRB Monks need 16 CON to equivalent HP to a 12 CON UnMonk. Given that you also have higher incentives to lean towards STR, and by virtue of how the PB system works, you are more inclined to invest in WIS for defence, which means better Stunning Fist DCs. CRB Monks usually preferred to get massive DEX at the expense of everything, or went with Sohei so they didn't care about WIS.

EDIT: Oh, and UnMonks have Spinning Kick, which allows them to ensure their stunning fist connects.

2. Weapon Flurry is not very good unless you have access to Ascetic Style (not an option in PFS), because otherwise you cannot apply Style Strikes with it. So then you either need to invest in another magic item to enhance your unarmed strikes... or alternatively, just go unarmed. Dragon Style, for this reason, remains one of the best styles out there, as it saves you money. It's also MUCH less feat intensive than Ascetic Style... and if you have access to Ascetic Style, you have access to handwraps.


Scarred Monk makes me physically queasy to think about. It stacks with Sensei! Which is cool because you can pile on Wisdom to have very high DCs.

You should also try to get a Corruption – probably needs GM approval and deciding whether you will be in danger of getting all the way to NPC.

For the other class... several options come to mind...
- Mutated Mind Psychic as mentioned
- Mutated Defender Vigilante
- Any flavor of Alchemist (Herbalist can cast through Wisdom, so it works well with Scarred/Sensei Monk)
- Hive-curse for Oracles?
- Weird Sorcerer Bloodlines like Nanite?


Wonderstell wrote:

It feels like everyone, myself included, forgot that was an actual option. I'll look into them in more detail tomorrow, but I can tell you're a fan of Stunning Fist.

1. Unlike CRB Monks, UnMonks usually have good enough WIS that enemies COULD fail the roll, particularly casters. A CR 6 caster NPC usually has +3 or +4 Fort.

2. But most importantly, Stunning Fist is a prereq to Dragon Ferocity.


Just made a ton of UnMonk suggestions.


If you want to do a casting Druid that is really good with Knowledge Skills, you should instead use this archetype:

https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Druid%20Halcyon%20Druid

Best casting Druid out there.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
The one level dip of sorcerer is a common option in guides for blaster wizards, not clear to me why it would not be a legitimate option for a blaster druid. I mean, yes blasting is sub optimal and druids are sub optimal for blasting, but once you decide to go that way, sure, why not. The monk level is pretty crippling though.

Because those guides are written by and for munchkins.

If you are making your first character, just go out and enjoy a class. You gain nothing of import – it doesn't make you weaker, but it doesn't make you stronger – and you delay your payoffs.

Well, what self-respecting Munchkin goes for something that doesn't give the most plusses?

Munchkins prefer to go about picking up 5 classes and dumpster diving for splatbook rules to make a build that is equally effective than a build that doesn't.


Lelomenia wrote:
The one level dip of sorcerer is a common option in guides for blaster wizards, not clear to me why it would not be a legitimate option for a blaster druid. I mean, yes blasting is sub optimal and druids are sub optimal for blasting, but once you decide to go that way, sure, why not. The monk level is pretty crippling though.

Because those guides are written by and for munchkins.

If you are making your first character, just go out and enjoy a class. You gain nothing of import – it doesn't make you weaker, but it doesn't make you stronger – and you delay your payoffs.


1. No dip is worth losing spells or having a reduced DC if you play a caster. "More spells" and "higher DCs" is your main source of damage.

2. No bloodline is worth it.

3. Druids have a good spell list, you don't need to solely focus on electric damage. And don't deny your other ways to do damage! For example, you have a Monk in the party to drop buffs on like Enlarge Person, Strong Jaw and Magic Fang, or use Badger's Ferocity to make the Slayer crit more, or so on. Remember – you are not JUST a blaster, you are a blaster and still a full Druid. You can even Summon dudes!

4. Feats look nice. I'd look into Quick Wild Shape and feats to improve spell effectiveness.

5. You should always use your full kit. That's the power of spellcasters – they can do A, B and C at high efficiency.

6. Don't dip into Monk <3


Nosta1300 wrote:

On a face book group I was asking for advice for a build that focuses on Intimidate but can actually fight. And have other stuff going for it

How ever I know some of the advice given is wrong.
Such as my rogue going Dazzling Display at level 3 when that feat needs
Weapon Focus and that needs a baby of 1

The idea is to take the underhanded rogue Talents and use darts

I am actually not sure if it'll work

I think antagonize was talked about and shatter Defense

I like the idea of throw darts but not sure if its worth it

Also if this works what rogue archetype should I take if any?

My best advice is not to be too ambitious with UnRogue builds. Try to build to the campaign, rather than a complex set of connected talents.


Deathskull90 wrote:
My armor training is the basic one where my full plate is allowing my full dex modifier to armor, and my weapon training is Dazzling Intimidation, and I am pretty sure this is the last lv up for this game. I would like to do more damage, but idk if it's worth more than increasing my will save.

Remember you can always take Advanced Weapon/Armor Training as feats.


Advanced Armor Training feat into Armored Juggernaut could pull a lot of weight if you find adamantine full plate.

Advanced Weapon Training feat into: Armed Bravery can pad out your will saves, into Fighter's Reflexes can help your reflex saves, and into Defensive Weapon Training (not to be confused with the feat) can pad your AC.

Critical Focus is also good to get into critical feats soon.


Let's agree that of the dude wants a katana it's not that much of a change in power.


Garlan wrote:
We have five Players. Three of them are frontliners, one Caster (support) and me (druid). So there are many frontliners. But a flanking buddy would be good for our Rogue.

In this case, I don't think the AC is that useful. You could just go with a Familiar for flavor, and dedicate to casting.

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