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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Of course, allegedly the final release has that monk style which gives you an armor bonus and caps your dex, which might be interesting to combine with like a bo staff approach.

Source plox?

One of my concerns with the Playtest was the fact that lacking good baseline reactions increased value of tools like the shield spell, which provided a very applicable reaction option at a very low opportunity cost.

Classes like Monks, who didn't have a good reaction option, were funnelled into either those or Crane Style, since otherwise, you had little to do with your reactions.

I'd like to know eventually if there are more options – like easy access to a Fighter's Attack of Opportunity or a Rogue's Dodge.

Psychic Detective Investigator.

Speaker of the Palatine Eye Bard.

Mindblade Magus.

Iiiiid Rager Bloodrager?

Psychometrist Vigilante?

I think the Bard one is a good fit.

Also, there might be a case for being able to cast differently, for example being a Mute Musician Bard.

No. You'd need something like the Necromantic Affinity feat.

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Honestly the Warrior Poet archetype is official and really enjoyable. You can get an AC through Animal Ally.

Heather 540 wrote:

I was going to go with a lance, yes.

I'm thinking of giving my mount the Charger archetype. It has some decent benefits that would work well in this case. Although I am wondering about the Charge Through feat. Can the cavalier take that and use it with the mount? Or do I need to have the mount take it itself?

You're stepping into the DM fiat territory of mounted combat rules...


Heather 540 wrote:
I'm still going through the feats. I've got 7 open slots left in the build starting at level 11, the last two bonus feats on the list being used at 11 and 14 which leaves the ones at 17 and 20 open to any combat feat.

Probably critical feats. Dazing Assault. Some teamwork feats to share with your mount?

avr wrote:

@Secret Wizard:

First, if your argument is purely about knocking down others and offers nothing to support itself that's a bad sign. Looks like a weak argument.

If someone gives you a poop burger, you can choose not to eat it even if there's nothing else to eat, my dude.

I am not obligated to prove a positive. Proving a negative is as valid.

People get math prizes for proving negatives. I get internet points.

Second, adding caps, bold face etc. does not actually support your argument

It doesn't, it's just there to ease people who might need help with reading comprehension.


Third, while the rule I was thinking of was in D&D 3.5, here's James Jacobs of Paizo on the subject.

Last, the gendarme breaks easily your way because it's easy to take all the feats from that list that you qualify for and not be able to take another when you get one - there's a rule for when you take all the feats on that list, but not for when you take all that you qualify for.

Now this, this is your first argument so far. Breaking new ground! I thought you were giving up early, good to see some fight in ya.

Yeah, I could imagine this being an interpretation, but my take is that James is referring to features that grant you specific bonus feats, rather than ones you select from a list. That is the main difference in my reading between "grant A bonus feat" from "grant your choice of a bonus feat".

VoodistMonk sums it up saying that if this were the case, Fighters could pick any combat feat with their bonus feats.

I find it hard to find an interpretation of what Jacobs said, read through your lens, that would prevent Fighters from just picking up any combat feat. While a welcome power boost, it's hardly what the authors meant there.

So unless you can provide something that jives well between Fighter Bonus Feats and this, I'm gonna stick with my reading. "You must qualify" is seldom seen, while "you can ignore" is very common, meaning "you must qualify" must be implicit more often.

So I have a practical and an editorial argument to go through.

Here ya go.

Tossing on the Kanabo template is similar to weakened versions of the powers of a Spawn, and so is the Apostle Kyton one if you did some light tweaking. They can serve as a base to calibrate the power of this character.

How about a Rough Rampager archetype Antipaladin instead of Cleric? Seems more straightforward to build, and can make better use of the spell-like abilities granted by those templates.

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people have been saying the "optimum" build for oracle is Noble Scion (War) & Prophetic Armor- why must i do what other people have done?

People get SAD-build boners but don't really consider optimal numbers is my thought on this. Like, Noble Scion is rarely better than Improved Initiative, and neither of them is particularly game breaking.

Prophetic Armor takes a Revelation and doesn't give you any upside vis-a-vis just having 12 DEX, Heavy Armor prof, and a set of full plate. But those SAD-boners are unstoppable. I mean, spend a revelation to have +4 dodge AC and wear a breastplate and sit at 19 AC... or spend a single throwaway feat and get 20 AC?
Pretty clear choice to me.

Natural weapons are totally viable for 3/4 BAB classes. The alternative is a weaksauce second attack.
I don't see your alignment, but if you are LN, you could take the Spirit Oni Master feat for another natural attack to pile on to the rest.

My point will still be that you are a full caster though. If you want to be useful, just plop spells. You have a ton of latitude for roleplaying and dawdling around with flavor feats and revelations because the bulk of your power is just being there to cast em spells.

I don't get it. Are you doing this for flavor or for optimization? I think you should pick either.

If you are optimizing, then your path is clear. Get STR, Heavy Armor, do polymorph effects, fight alongside your beast, use Beastmaster Style or something while hitting people with natural attacks and using spells for utility.

If you are going for flavor, place less onus on all of this and just enjoy the RP.

Trying to go through the middle is gonna drive you insane.

Worst case scenario dude dies.

I did a Spiritualist (archetype) Investigator, good Int, Wis and Str.

Plopped some heavy armor, went Dwarf, played a Chronicler of the Supernatural and dungeon delver.

Hit people with axes.

Was fun! Died a noble death drowning in acid while immobilized.

You don't need Armored Rider – Cavaliers don't get ACP on Ride checks.

A cavalier does not take an armor check penalty on Ride checks while riding his mount. The mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A cavalier’s mount does not gain the share spells special ability.

Read through it all!

avr wrote:

If that's the gendarme archetype's bonus feats then no, there's nothing specifying that you need the prereqs and as bonus feats they don't need prereqs unless it is specified.

e.g. a monk who gets stunning fist at L1 doesn't need BAB +8, and if that monk gets improved trip with their selectable bonus feats they don't need combat expertise.

If you want more skill points one way to do it would be to take a feat which increases your ride skill, lower Dex (heavy armor doesn't usually support more than +1 Dex anyway) and raise Int.

This is absolutely and totally incorrect.

You CANNOT pick Gendarme feats without qualifying for them.

The examples you picked are particularly bad, because in both cases, it is made explicit that you don't need prerequisites:

At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk can select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything. At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Gorgon’s Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Mobility. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Critical, Medusa’s Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

You need all prerequisites for Gendarme feats because it doesn't say anywhere you can skip them.

Heather 540 wrote:

Ok. Under the assumption that the GM will have me roll Handle Animal frequently and the fact that the most dangerous effects that have Will saves are mind-affecting, I'll use the Steadfast Personality feat. I'll just make a note about not being able to use it for anything that's not mind-affecting.

That stat spread will look like this:
16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 14 Cha.

I would like a bit of Int, but I also need Dex fairly high for Ride checks, so I'll just have to deal with a low Int for a while.

It's safe to assume you'll have some free feats to sink on Peerless Courtier

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Play Neutral Evil, let everyone do their thing, bail when things go south.

so happy my guide is promoting an artist's work!

Well, if you enjoy Sundering, there's little better you can do than play a Steel-Breaker Brawler, have you considered that?

A Nature's Fang Druid has several noticeable upsides over a Cleric.

You get a full power animal companion right off bat... Or you can just get something like the Feather, Fur or Animal domain too if you don't mind waiting for your animal companion.

With your Slayer Talents, you can pick up Improved Precise Shot way faster than the curve, and you have the extra feats to pick up proficiency in the orc hornbow and skip tiny bows altogether.

Another option is to play an elf or half elf and enjoy racial proficiency in bows.

Now, besides the free feats, Nature's Fang comes with Studied Target, which outscales Divine Favor in power since it also applies to spells.

The big downside is that your spells don't quite power up your ranged ability as well as some cleric spells do.

But you do get ranger combat style feats!

But you get less return from Steadfast Personality.

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Heather 540 wrote:

It doesn't? Huh. I did not know that. I've never looked at it before so I assumed it had the same requirements as the other maneuver feats.

So how about this to start with? (20 points, human bonus into Str.)
16 Str, 13 Dex, 13 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 12 Cha.

Drop that WIS hard. You don't need any higher than 10.

You have the free feats to pick up Iron Will and Steadfast Personality.

Also you need at least 13 CHA to get Chain Challenge, I'd recommend going for 14. That allows you for better animal handling and Steadfast Persh.

Something like this:

S14+2 D13 C14 I12 W10 CH14

Trade your bonus Feat from Human for Eye for Talent.


LV1. Iron Will, (Power Attack)
LV2. (Mounted Combat)
LV3. Steadfast Personality

If you don't intend to get to 20th level, the Huntmaster feat becomes really interesting too.

Improved Bull Rush only requires Power Attack and STR 13, not Combat Expertise or INT.

Also, Chain Challenge is ridiculously good, so you should get some CHA.

Heather 540 wrote:
I see. I was planning on a mounted build mostly.

I'd give a good hard look at other archetypes other than Emissary then,

- Hooded Knight for magical movement
- Gendarme for feats
- Hussar for using your mount in dungeons without a hitch.
- Knight of Arnisant for more defence.
- Saurian Champion for a big fat chunky boy
- Qadiran Horselord for skirmishing

Going Emissary you aren't quite gaining much.

Emissaries get abilities that function whether they are riding their mount or not. If you pick Emissary, is because you want that flexibility.

If you just want to get rid of Tactician, there are better options.

It's just that if you wanted to get rid of Tactician, you could go Gendarme for better effect and keep the Banner.

If you go Emissary, it doesn't make too much sense to go Order of the Sword as it's charging central – it's all about Spirited Charge and feats on that line.

As an Emissary, the Challenge bonus is not as attractive, as you are likely to get off the mount, and the 8th level Order power isn't useful as you already get all the Mounted feats you want as your focus is versatility, as contradictory as it sounds, and you don't want to overspend on mounted features.

The Cavalier "structures" can be divided as:

- Charger (something to just give up Tactician like Gendarme ideal, but Hussar is very good because it allows you to squeeze your mount through Medium-sized spaces, combined with an Order to boost charge damage like Order of the Sword)

- Skirmisher (Qadiran Horselord to get Spring Attack charge damage + Order of the Saddle for more of it)

- On/Off (Emissary for features that function in both stages + some Order with bonuses active both on and off the saddle, like Order of the Cockatrice)

- Animal Companion (an archetype that gives up the Charge features like Honor Guard, maybe combined with Beast Rider or one of the exotic animal feats + an Order that works well in this style of combat like Order of the Reins)

And then there's the mountless and ranged builds.

Since you wanna do On/Off, ostensibly, I think something else than Order of the Sword might be fun.

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Heather 540 wrote:
One of my few Strength based characters.

Why must you stray away from the light.

In any case,

LV1. Endurance, Heavy Armor Proficiency

LV3. Agile Maiden to remove the need for DEX higher than 12

and then Power Attack and defensive s%+& like Steadfast Personality, Iron Will, and good ol' Chain Challenge.

This being said who wants Emissary and Order of the Sword amirite.

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avr wrote:
While there are a couple of feats related to casting surreptitiously, there's no class or archetype which especially uses or builds on them. Why don't we have a Secret Wizard?

It's called a Monk. It obscures its spells with a fist on your eyes!

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

You should Kickstart a "Stuff Paizo Never Got Around To In 1E" book, Wiz!

I actually am preparing a 3PP release about the end of 1E... but I'm having a hard time determining the scope of it.

Alignment threads are a s&*&show.

I think that the issue is that if your character's only motivation is financial gain, Evil is a good interpretation of your alignment.

The way I interpret "Evil", personally, is that an Evil character only cares for self-serving reasons.

An LE character is motivated by their personal worldview.
An NE character is motivated by their personal resources.
An CE character is motivated by their personal desires.

I think your character would fall under a NE because their ultimate goal is personal accumulation of resources/power.

Conversely, I feel CN characters are more focused on preserving and promoting their way of life. If people in general get a benefit out of it (CG) or if others have to suffer for you to be satisfied (CE), that's secondary to its preservation.

For example, the Greyjoy's words in GoT are "We Do Not Sow". In those words, you can find CN well-defined – "OTHERS must sow for us to maintain our freedom."

Now, going back to your character, if they don't have a personal lifestyle they want to preserve, and they just care for gold, they don't have enough INWARD-FACING APPRECIATION to be CN.

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So, are we seriously wrapping up 1E without a fully INT-based (Un)Monk archetype?

So, are we seriously wrapping up 1E without a Rageless Barbarian archetype?

So, are we seriously wrapping up 1E without a juicy late-level Gunslinger feat to encourage single-class builds?

So, are we seriously wrapping up 1E without Alchemist discoveries that grant them outsider-binding abilities?

It's a straight up RP hook. I'd be excited.

Rule #2 is "whatever your character is, they need to have an interest in sticking with the party". As long as both know this, it's a great opportunity.

Deadly Aim is scaling damage! It's a lot of bang for the buck for 1 feat.

If allowed, a pair of Handwraps are a pretty good option – you can enchant them at the same cost as any other magical weapon.

As for Style Feats... it's gotta be Crane Style. You can combine it with Order of the Eastern Star for really stupid defences.

The cool thing about it is that you only need a free hand! That way, you get a mechanical bonus from being a unarmed + weapon TWFer.

This is a sample build:

LV1. (Psychic Sensitivity), (Improved Unarmed Strike), Dodge, Iron Will
LV3. (Two-Weapon Fighting), Crane Style
LV5. Crane Wing
LV6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
LV7. Chain Challenge
LV9. Crane Riposte

A very simple concept: a dude wants to impose measures that are popular among a specific set of citizens. It can be a town, a city, a region, red states in the US.

Now, that person is doing that because it's popular, not because they particularly love the idea. The SUCCESS of the idea matters because it's a way for that dude to gain popularity himself.

Riveling wrote:
Hi all, im here to ask if there is any undead playable race (not Dhampir), or any way to become an undead??

Duskwalker is a playable undead race, sort of. Spiritual in a flesh vessel.

I think the point is that 14 STR/10 DEX is better than 10 STR/14 DEX if you grab Prophetic Armor. You can use a breastplate, have the encumbrance for it, and get better AC.

For the 8th level Revelation for PFS, something like Sudden Charge should be really handy to get out of trouble quick.

As for the Slayer Talent... Trapfinding?

Focused Target gives you +attack/damage/DCs/skills, very flexibly.

I think Reactionary is even more important than you may think. Prebuffing is super massive for Inquisitors, and even with Cunning Initiative, you really want to make sure you drop that Divine Favor.

Also I hate that Fate's Favored cheese. I wonder why didn't they errata the bonus into a racial bonus like every other one, or made Fate's Favored's power more in line with other traits.

You could go with a Half-Elf for the Mordant Envoy alternate racial, it gives you another +1 CL to transmutation spells.

Also, if you go Heritor Knight, you only get one Greater Make Whole per day, so Transmuter of Korazda is as good as something as Shaper of Reality.

Sounds like a pretty balanced party.

Their biggest challenge will be social tasks though.

This one is for the endgame, but Improved Eldritch Heritage (Maestro) can make you fully ignore the penalties of the Lycanthropy curse.

Salamander Bloodline Bloodragers get make whole as a bloodline spell.

Otherwise, Deific Obedience [Brigh - Sentinel] can give you make whole as a spell-like ability. With Versatile Obedience, you can get this at 10th level.

A Paladin with Oath Against Grotesquery gets make whole added to their spell list too.

Otherwise, play a Wyrwood with the Repair Magic alternate racial!

The problem is gaining GREATER Make Whole.
Best way around that I can think of is going Fighter into Heritor Knight PrC. You'd get Greater Make Whole 1/day at 11th level, and your Weapon Training stacks.

Craig Tierney wrote:
Do you still happen to have the source for the image at the start of the Considerations and Alternatives section? It's quite nice, and I'd like to find the artist, but I have been unable to find a way to image search out of a Google Doc.

Here ya go

Sorcerer. Something simple like Sage Bloodline.

Combat is hard. Combat is deadly. It requires forethought and positioning. I find that players take a million years to really grasp those.

Magic Missile, on the other hand? They catch up with it in no time.

Furthermore, a player playing a melee class always gets surprised by how magic works and they don't really know what stops it or what enhances it.
This is because while combat is relatively intuitive, magic is made-up malarkey.

Going with a Sorcerer to start off will allow the player to get more involved into these systems too.

Rolling twice is about a +5 on the save.

On that topic, Cap of the Free Thinker is probably the best early investment in this regard, right?

Wilding Mind is not particularly fantastic but does the job sometimes.

I think this falls into the Common Sense section of the rules, same as the "free hand" fiasco. If you are attacking with both of your feet, how the hell are you standing up.

"But unarmed strikes can be made with feet", yeah but they follow BaB rules.

My point is being overly generous interpreting a rule made for monsters in the CRB is fraught with danger and munchkinnery.

Hooves are not on your feet necessarily. I think below the torso attacks are tails and talons, while the hooves here are in your front/upper limbs.

Otherwise, when a horse deals hoof damage on a charge attack, it would be spinning 360.

Again, these are the perils of sinking into the ugly mess of natural attacks.

Derklord wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
You don't get MORE attacks just by getting claws + hooves. You still only have TWO limbs to attack with. So claw + hooves doesn't work. Gore + bite MAY work depending on your GM interpreting of the rules, whether "body part" or "limb" is more important.
Er, on the grounds of what rule?

Er, the natural attacks rules?

Natural Attacks: You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks).

Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. [...]

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Honestly, the free 'Iron Will' feat from the Dedication phantom seems like it doesn't belong: None of the other phantoms give an extra bonus like this and I'm wondering if that was an error of some sort...

While neat for a dip, it's not that big of an addition for a regular Spiritualist because of their natural Will saves and WIS-focus, nu?

1. No need to dump all mental stats. You don't need more than, say, 14 DEX at character creation. That means you have a +2 mod. Adding +6 at 20th level with a Belt of Physical Perfection would bring you to a +5 mod, which is exactly the Max DEX modifier of a mithral breastplate, your endgame target.

2. Note that hoof attacks and claw attacks are interchangeable. You don't get MORE attacks just by getting claws + hooves. You still only have TWO limbs to attack with. So claw + hooves doesn't work. Gore + bite MAY work depending on your GM interpreting of the rules, whether "body part" or "limb" is more important.

3. Armor should not get affected by a Skinwalker's Shapeshifting, no.

4. I think a reasonable goal to aim to is: tail, gore, bite, claws. An interesting option to get there is Witchwolf Skinwalker to get bite + claw/claw, go Salamander bloodline for a tail, and finish it up with Spirit Oni Master for a free gore attack, reaching our tail + gore + bite + claw/claw goal by as early as 3rd level.

5. This all being said, there's something nice about the powerful simplicity of the Hag Riven Bloodrager archetype in giving you two massive claw attacks.

6. Another good one is Lizardfolk (naturally have claw/claw, bite) with the Dangerous Tail feat for a tail, and Spirit Oni Master. That frees up your Bloodrager class choices as everything would be gotten through race/feats.

Slim Jim wrote:

Some just retire, and you know why. -- Assuming you're human, your poor guy's will save is -7 behind a raging dwarf with the same pre-racial stats with a different class archetype and who has not take Glory of Old or Steel Soul yet.

what kind of munchkinnery is this

don't retire characters because they have weaknesses, and much less if they have a weakness vis-a-vis the most munchkin build out there

note, this is not an argument, this is a personal belief

IMHO keep up at it, Improved Iron Will is stupidly good for PFS – that one Will save that matters comes once a game usually.

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