How A God’s Death Impacts Pathfinder Society

Huh. I'm surprised - I was pretty sure that existing characters would get to live and adventure as they were, and only new characters were affected - kinda like with pre-master wizards vs remaster wizards.
A full rebuild is a kinda fair compromise, though.

As there's a good chunk of players who don't actively follow the forums and paizo news, how would you recommend GMs to handle situations where someone sits down with a gorumite after august 1st, and they haven't yet heard about the change?

There's also a bunch of non-core 20 deities that are going to die. Will those be handled with the same rules (immediate rebuild when one of them is announced, like with God, Varix the Despoiler, and Sturovenen the Dragoneagle?) and do we need to wait for OP's confirmation for each death/deity, or can we just assume that any that dies results in a rebuild?

It does seem to be opposite of how the imprisoned elemental lords were handled. as seen here and here, though perhaps how those events unfolded were known by staff and this is more definitive.

But nice to see free rebuilds for those impacted.

I would love to see a background attached to this in some way. I think my war priest will become a fighter, but he will still follow gorum despite losing power. It’d be nice if the thematic background was “Lost religion”
Your god has died and you have lost your way. You spend your time trying to find answers to your questions. You are convinced your god is still there for you, and you gain deceptive worship as a feat and are trained in occultism. Choose between intelligence and wisdom for your ability score.

That's a hell of an impact!

This seems like the right call to me. Hopefully War of the Immortals has an option for clerics who are former worshipers of a god that died. It would be interesting, given that such an option could also be applied to former Arodenites!

I sense there's going to be a whole lot of battle oracles in the near future.

As there's a good chunk of players who don't actively follow the forums and paizo news, how would you recommend GMs to handle situations where someone sits down with a gorumite after august 1st, and they haven't yet heard about the change?

If such a character is played in a game before the Gorum tap is turned off on 8/1, but then the player shows up to GenCon and tries to play that character (so playing a Gorumite on or after 8/1) see if the option can be quickly rebuilt using the free rebuild you get. Otherwise, give them a pregen.

If, instead, someone's first Gorumite game is on 8/3, their GM there is unaware of the change, and then at, say, at DragonCon on 9/1 they try to play it, it'd be like brining a cleric of Asmodeus. Gorum won't be a legal option for clerics in PFS to choose (since he can't have clerics when he's dead). Such players should get a pregen and work out with local venture officers how to correct the character moving forward.

There's also a bunch of non-core 20 deities that are going to die. Will those be handled with the same rules (immediate rebuild when one of them is announced, like with God, Varix the Despoiler, and Sturovenen the Dragoneagle?) and do we need to wait for OP's confirmation for each death/deity, or can we just assume that any that dies results in a rebuild?

While such characters will get rebuilds just like Gorumites, not all of those deities will die when Gorum dies, and not all have been announced. As such, to give you all time after that announcement, those characters can be played until the end of 2024.

On one hand I would prefer that the players of clerics of Gorum would need to figure out what is next for their PC and continue building from there. Do they become a fighter? Do they go to a new god? I think that would add a lot of good fluff to the campaign and characters.

On the other hand, you may be ticking off a lot of players who have put a lot of time and money into their PC (buying books, going to game days and conventions) and the complete rebuild seems like a good compromise.

I would really love to see an existing Gorum cleric PC can spend an adventure godless and earn a boon after showing their transition to a new god or class.

On one hand I would prefer that the players of clerics of Gorum would need to figure out what is next for their PC and continue building from there. Do they become a fighter? Do they go to a new god? I think that would add a lot of good fluff to the campaign and characters.

Play a thaumaturge or a divine witch/sorcerer. Keep pretending to be a cleric. "Gorum's not dead. He's just sleeping!"

I did this with an Arodenite in 1st Edition. Honestly, now I'm kinda tempted to do it with a summoner having the time traveler background.

Assuming Exemplar is PFS legal, a former Gorumite finding a shard of his divine essence and beginning a crusade to avenge and/or succeed him is a fantastic character idea.

I understand a Cleric of Gorum, for example, will not be granted any spells from a dead god after a rest.

What happens, though, with any spells you haven't expended?

If you used one after August 1st, would it still take effect? Or would it not work at all even though you still have that particular spell prepared?

I ask because let's say I still wanted to play a Cleric of Gorum even after Gorum's death. I'm thinking I'd have to be VERY judicious with spell-use because I know I'm never going to get them back after he dies.

Casting a Heal spell becomes a HUGE deal for my character and it had better be for a DAMNED GOOD REASON!!

I understand a Cleric of Gorum, for example, will not be granted any spells from a dead god after a rest.

What happens, though, with any spells you haven't expended?

If you used one after August 1st, would it still take effect? Or would it not work at all even though you still have that particular spell prepared?

I ask because let's say I still wanted to play a Cleric of Gorum even after Gorum's death. I'm thinking I'd have to be VERY judicious with spell-use because I know I'm never going to get them back after he dies.

Casting a Heal spell becomes a HUGE deal for my character and it had better be for a DAMNED GOOD REASON!!

Baller idea, mad respect.

I understand a Cleric of Gorum, for example, will not be granted any spells from a dead god after a rest.

What happens, though, with any spells you haven't expended?

If you used one after August 1st, would it still take effect? Or would it not work at all even though you still have that particular spell prepared?

I ask because let's say I still wanted to play a Cleric of Gorum even after Gorum's death. I'm thinking I'd have to be VERY judicious with spell-use because I know I'm never going to get them back after he dies.

Casting a Heal spell becomes a HUGE deal for my character and it had better be for a DAMNED GOOD REASON!!

We're just not equipped to track that sort of thing, or plan scenarios around having a caster who's resources are truly limited. It raises questions of Focus Points, and opens up too much table uncertainty.

It's a really cool idea, but the kind of idea that just isn't suited for Organized Play.

Does this rebuild stack with the Remaster rebuild granted last year?

Does this rebuild have an expiration date?

Does this also apply to cleric of minor gods who died?

Does this rebuild stack with the Remaster rebuild granted last year?

It does.

Does this rebuild have an expiration date?

No expiration date.

Does this also apply to cleric of minor gods who died?

See my answer above. The rebuild will be given, but the cutoff date is the end of 2024

This seems like the right call to me. Hopefully War of the Immortals has an option for clerics who are former worshipers of a god that died. It would be interesting, given that such an option could also be applied to former Arodenites!

... Or really old clerics who invested in Ihys early on!

Really appreciate OP being ready with clear rules for what happens etc.

This blog contains spoilers for the War of Immortals! If you don’t want to know which god dies, click away now!

Seriously, I’m not joking. The god’s icon is like 5 lines down.

Now’s your last chance.

Okay, you’ve been warned!

Well this is a fun case of left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Or in this case the person who created the thumbnail never bothered to read the article.

Does this have any impact on characters, either existing or new, for the PF1 Campaign?

It's been a while since I peek in on the discussion on PathfinderWiki. Hopefully they won't be going all in to "erasure" mode of things removed from the setting (like dead gods, the dark elves prior, etc) like some of the editors over there wanted to do.

EDIT: I see PF Wiki's article/canon policy did get set a couple months ago and did not go the erasure route. Phew.

IS Gorum dead in 1st Edition as well?

While such characters will get rebuilds just like Gorumites, not all of those deities will die when Gorum dies, and not all have been announced. As such, to give you all time after that announcement, those characters can be played until the end of 2024.

Man... I really hope that my Warpriest of Gorum doesn't make the wrong choice on 1 August.

Remaster: rebuild.
Gorum's dead: rebuild.
Chose the wrong replacement deity, and s/he's dead too: rebuild.

Very interesting! How does this change affect characters who worshiped and received power from a pantheon that explicitly included Gorum or another deity that will bite it? Are affected pantheons going to be explicitly removed, changed in Divine Mysteries, or kept the same but without the deities that have perished?

(The specific pantheon in question for a player of mine is the Gravelady's Guard, a pantheon that...very explicitly is three deities, one of whom will die and two of whom will not.)

As a cleric of Aroden I am ready to bully the Gorumites.

Will The First Blade be stepping up as Gorum’s “inheritor”? Will it be available to select as a deity in lieu of its former lord?

Will The First Blade be stepping up as Gorum’s “inheritor”? Will it be available to select as a deity in lieu of its former lord?

I imagine that there will be some hints as to where the worshippers of Gorum will go.

In Osirion, the Osiriani goddess Sekhmet might be a good option. I played with someone who had a war priest of the Lady of Slaughter. Ragathiel and some empyreal lords might gain worshippers. Similarly, some may turn to Calistria for the sake of vengeance.

Looking forward to more scenarios following the theme of the adventure paths.

This might be too specialized of a question, but do we have an idea on how this will affect PbP games? Would a character be able to keep their spells and abilities if the game started before August 1st but then continued past that date? Or should we reccomend any Gorumites looking at a game that looks like it will run over that date to rebuild first?

Losing your god is devastating. If any of you want to talk about it we can have lunch.

dang

Does this apply to Divine Access-Gorum, despite it not being Gorum granting these spells?

Losing your god is devastating. If any of you want to talk about it we can have lunch.

At least Acavnans can get powers from her corpse

This death has interesting implications for the Starfinder setting.

Previously, Rovagug and Torag were the only deities positively identified as being absent in the Starfinder setting (but probably alive on Old Golarion, if I have read the clues correctly).

Many of us mistakenly assumed that all of the other deities were still alive and present, just a lot less popular. Clearly that is not the case -- we cannot assume that any deity not mentioned in Starfinder material is alive or dead at that point. But I guess that matters less in a setting with no clerics receiving their spells directly from deities.

This death has interesting implications for the Starfinder setting.

Previously, Rovagug and Torag were the only deities positively identified as being absent in the Starfinder setting (but probably alive on Old Golarion, if I have read the clues correctly).

Many of us mistakenly assumed that all of the other deities were still alive and present, just a lot less popular. Clearly that is not the case -- we cannot assume that any deity not mentioned in Starfinder material is alive or dead at that point. But I guess that matters less in a setting with no clerics receiving their spells directly from deities.

Paizo has started that Starfinder is a different continutity. In old terms of another game, it would be a future version of alternate prime material plane. Or in Pathfinder terms, an alternate Multiverse set int he future. (It is a sepearte continuity but I think my comparison is apt.)

Since we won’t know what other gods will die until that is announced, if you rebuild your cleric of Gorum to be a cleric of one of those gods, do you get a second rebuild when they are announced? I assume the answer would have to be yes, but it would be good to know that for sure.

Also to clarify, is the cutoff for minor deities at the end of 2024 for playing those characters, or is that the cutoff for the rebuild? If the rebuild for Gorum is unlimited, shouldn’t that also be the case for the other gods? As long as you aren’t playing the character after the cutoff? It seems like a character shouldn’t be caught in a trap where the player doesn’t find out about the need to rebuild until after the point where they can rebuild.

This might be too specialized of a question, but do we have an idea on how this will affect PbP games? Would a character be able to keep their spells and abilities if the game started before August 1st but then continued past that date? Or should we recomend any Gorumites looking at a game that looks like it will run over that date to rebuild first?

Short answer: yes. That is, if the game starts before August 1, Gorum is treated as alive until the game ends.

I'm the Guides to Org Play lead VO. We were just discussing this sort of question and clarifications to the language in the Guides.

Disclaimer: per the Guide text, only specific Paizo staff can make official rulings. So my word is not law, but this is my understanding of the intention and I've been drafting the revisions.

The current language (here):

Timing: To reduce confusion and chaos, rule changes announced during a gaming event do not take effect until after the event ends.

We are looking to make some clarifications, although I don't have a timeframe. I'm hoping it won't be long, though. (As part of the process, I am looping in some of the PbP venture officers to verify the new language fits PbP needs.)

A gaming event is meant to refer to an active adventure and does not refer to a convention or other gameday, correct?

Yes. I believe that it is meant to cover corner cases like Play-by-Post games which might start before August 1st.

A gaming event is meant to refer to an active adventure and does not refer to a convention or other gameday, correct?

It's intended to cover both cons and individual tables. More specifically:

[1] Any stand-alone game that's started before a rule change effective date does not have to use the updated rules.

This includes games at regular gamedays, but for those, treat each run of an adventure as a separate thing. (That is, the part 2 rule for cons doesn't mean if your gameday goes on forever, you never need to change.)

[2] When a change is effective during a convention, all games at the whole convention do not have to use the updated rules. (The idea is it's not great to make people scramble to rebuild their character in the middle of a con, especially if it's a rules change that takes effect immediately.)

But again, I'm just giving a heads up. The final published Guide text is the rule.

In fact, I'm pretty sure the text was originally added specifically with conventions in mind. It's not very fun to show up for a day of gaming only to be told "Surprise! Hot fix to the rules of the road, your PC is now invalid" after all.

Note that the exception for events is for rules announced during the event - in this particular case, convention would need to have started on/before april 18th and would need to last 3,5 months until august 1st for it to be relevant.

Or to put in a different way: This exception doesn't affect, say, gencon, because the announcement about the rule change wasn't made during gencon, even if the actual change to the rule happens during gencon.

Swiftbrook wrote:

On one hand I would prefer that the players of clerics of Gorum would need to figure out what is next for their PC and continue building from there. Do they become a fighter? Do they go to a new god? I think that would add a lot of good fluff to the campaign and characters.

Play a thaumaturge or a divine witch/sorcerer. Keep pretending to be a cleric. "Gorum's not dead. He's just sleeping!"

I did this with an Arodenite in 1st Edition. Honestly, now I'm kinda tempted to do it with a summoner having the time traveler background.

I believe that a Battle Oracle may also make the transition interesting for some people. “I was cursed for continuing to follow my god!”

Anyone rebuilding but trying to keep the same character may want to use the Sentinel archtype to keep their armor proficiency assuming they don’t get it some other way. The weapon proficiency may be a little more difficult.

Someone may want to suggest a boon “Former followers of Gorum” only available to those characters built worshipping the god before they died that gives proficiency with their divine weapon in order to help make these builds better. Allow it to scale with the weapon proficiencies given by the class. It should likely cost a class feat.

I think it'd be interesting to let players who had Gorum as their god 'feel' his death, but the rare few follower's are still able to cast the same spells and use their Gorum-specific abilities, but something about it feels slightly different to them... which they eventually learn is due to some other Deity(s) trying to claim Gorum's followers, so the follower might be drawing their power from something darker (like Szuriel) or perhaps from someone like Iomedae. But by doing it this way, with someone else just taking up the rein's as their new patron (with or without the consent of the follower) it would allow the player a valid in-game reason to keep feats or abilities uniquely tied to Gorum AND have interesting story implications if they don't know WHERE their spell casting is coming from anymore!

What I'm wondering is how it will affect Amiri!

Maybe she'll become an exemplar so she can yell GORUM'S BLOOD!!!! instead of BLOOD FOR GORUM!!!

Going back to PFS1, I have always and only played clerics of Gorum. So POOP.

Three questions on the 'free rebuild':
1) Can the Core Rulebook chassis be used instead of the Player Core chassis?
2) How much gp does the character get on the rebuild? The 15% tax/penalty on the remaster rebuild is a problem.
3) Will the answers to my first two questions be documented somewhere other than as a post on this forum to establish a Source of Authority?

Going back to PFS1, I have always and only played clerics of Gorum. So POOP.

Three questions on the 'free rebuild':
1) Can the Core Rulebook chassis be used instead of the Player Core chassis?
2) How much gp does the character get on the rebuild? The 15% tax/penalty on the remaster rebuild is a problem.
3) Will the answers to my first two questions be documented somewhere other than as a post on this forum to establish a Source of Authority?

I think the answers for all of your questions can be found in the remaster section of The Guide to Organized Play.

x x 342 wrote:

Going back to PFS1, I have always and only played clerics of Gorum. So POOP.

Three questions on the 'free rebuild':
1) Can the Core Rulebook chassis be used instead of the Player Core chassis?
2) How much gp does the character get on the rebuild? The 15% tax/penalty on the remaster rebuild is a problem.
3) Will the answers to my first two questions be documented somewhere other than as a post on this forum to establish a Source of Authority?

I think the answers for all of your questions can be found in the remaster section of The Guide to Organized Play.

I think the remaster section of The Guide to Organized Play is specific to the remaster. The 'free rebuild' for clerics of Gorum is not a remaster and the rules may or may not be the same as the remaster rules. I posted my comment hoping to get my questions definitively answered by someone either at paizo or at PFS3.

Master of None wrote:

x x 342 wrote:

Going back to PFS1, I have always and only played clerics of Gorum. So POOP.

Three questions on the 'free rebuild':
1) Can the Core Rulebook chassis be used instead of the Player Core chassis?
2) How much gp does the character get on the rebuild? The 15% tax/penalty on the remaster rebuild is a problem.
3) Will the answers to my first two questions be documented somewhere other than as a post on this forum to establish a Source of Authority?

I think the answers for all of your questions can be found in the remaster section of The Guide to Organized Play.

I think the remaster section of The Guide to Organized Play is specific to the remaster. The 'free rebuild' for clerics of Gorum is not a remaster and the rules may or may not be the same as the remaster rules. I posted my comment hoping to get my questions definitively answered by someone either at paizo or at PFS3.

Gorum's death is still a future event. I'd imagine that when the book that formailizes it is published, Alex and our PFS leadership will tell us how it works.