Vaek, this is probably a good time for one of your famous Knowledge(local) rolls to think of somewhere to run to...who knows, you might even roll well for once!
Combat section of the PRD, special movement rules section. See the example diagram and foot note with the ogre's movement specifically. Cutting corners is not allowed.
For elixirs, where the rules talking about crafting these? I found one vague post on the forums here that talk about a elixir can be any spell level (unlike the level 3 limit of potions) - but I'm not finding any actual rules references that talk about crafting elixirs. Magic item section of course has a few very specific elixirs - truth, love, etc.
Elixirs are Wonderous Items, so are made using those rules. Elixirs are basically the go to for making "potions" with spells above level 3, but you can make them lower level as well. It doesnt make a whole lotta sense, but then again, neither does disallowing "personal" spells in potions...the drinker is "casting" the spell on himself after all.
I just realized where all of Vaeks good rolls have been going. Seems he hasnt had a save with a result below atleast an 18 for quite a while (excluding that first save vs sleep :P)
Make the ones that count. That's my strategy. Though not falling asleep would have been nice
Btw Vaek, I think your Bluff is missing the Class Skill bonus?
Sense Motive is also 1 lower than it should be.
:)
I'm just letting you guys know that I am still here. Saul's just back at the club house making Will saves to avoid eating all the custard filled doughnuts while he's waiting for you.
Don't hold out much hope though, Will saves are his weakest after all....
Any word on Expeditious Retreat? It wouldnt even need to be an "elixir", it could be a stone with a rune on it, that crumbles to dust when used. The price is the same for a single use, use-activated Wonderous Item as it is for a potion, without the personal range restriction.
Also, Saul, dont worry, Anthony will be there shortly to save him from himself.
I'm just not seeing rules for creating elixirs that mimic spells in the magic item sections at all.
The few elixirs that exist as predefined items don't perfectly mimic the spells used to make them and use the craft wondrous item feat (which seems very odd). Is this something from 3.5 that didn't carry over? Am I just being blind?
Ok back from vacation and lots to catch up on. I'm a bit lost on whats going on besides seeing that Vaek is having one hell of a bad day. Id pray to Father Skinsaw for you brother but he doesnt answer prayers of that nature.
I cant wait until we find out...er I mean hopefully we find out; how they are communicating without saying anything. Im guessing the witch cast Message since its the easiest such spell to cast that I can find. Although the range would require her to stay pretty close during a chase like this. Range at best would be 150' and only 5 targets. Not sure how the guards are getting their info? If it was the other, unseen spellcaster; Message wouldve been out of range after the first time they ran and the undine, cleric and guards would be lost as to where to go. A couple couldve followed her until she flew over a building and out of their sight. Anyways Run Vaek Run!
Any other spells that allow communication at a distance like that? Any that we coulda/woulda and shoulda out to use?
I'm just not seeing rules for creating elixirs that mimic spells in the magic item sections at all.
It doesnt have to be an Elixir, it could be a stone with a rune on it, that you crush or erase the rune to active (Use activated item). Looking at the table for prices, a single use, use activated item, is Spell level X Caster level X 50 gold. This is usually used for potions, but you can make something similar with Craft Wonderous. I may not be something you drink, but the rules for making it are the same.
Custom magic item at that point, which I tend to be more stringent on.
My error though, will allow the one time item use here.
I wonder what they would do if Vaek took a hostage. Likely they would have to let him go.
Oh, now that would be very interesting. Pathfinder rules aren't very well equipped to deal with something like that - a single bow shot could still kill Vaek despite a hostage.
I'd probably run it as a first round he needs to grapple a hostage, second round to get them pinned. From there he could realistically threaten to slit the hostages throat if they attack him or give further chase, cast any spells, etc. And prepare a readied action to do so.
Grappling and then holding a hostage in front of him would get him 12 more effective AC (almost full cover + shooting into melee). Wouldnt the threat of a readied attack be enough?
Or more "realistically" throw game rules out the window, I mean, it takes all of two seconds to grab a non-combatant bystander and put a weapon to their throat.
Using game rules he would get attacked and killed for two rounds before even having a real chance to realistically kill his hostage, which makes all kinds of no sense. You could just rule grabbing a hostage as simply being moving up next to the person and readying an attack if anyone moves.
Speaking of rules, about the chase rules, when would the halfling "catch" Vaek if he were to win? I mean, using normal round by round he would be able to sprint for 7 or 8 rounds at 60 ft speed, easily outpacing anyone but the halfling and leaving it a 1 vs 1 by the time he "catches" him.
And how does the distance between the factor into the equation? Surely a pursuit starting with 10 feet between them isnt the same as one starting with 30 feet between them.
And what does "Catch" even mean? Halfling wins the rolls and Vaek lies hog-tied in the street with the halfling doing a Captain Morgan pose?
The pursuit rules really just seem to favor the pursuer.
Id also think Vaek would see the Halfling gaining on him, and atleast be allowed to state some form of action other than simply running, when it becomes apparent the Halfling is gaining on him?
I definitely would be a fun idea. But I expect I would be killed without a second thought. Were there is only one of me. And I'm already almost dead.
Such disregard for the life of a citizen would likely land them alignment shifts or at the very least jail time of their own.
Week they have some kind of paper work that slowed then to kill mael and not be stopped.
Theres a difference between killing an enemy combatant who didnt surrender and simply letting a citizen die.
Btw, last round when the you were forced to reroll your acrobatics, I have to assume the Witch used a hex on you, in which case im wondering how she managed to move up to you in the same round (60 ft speed vs your double move)
Fly spell doubles your moved speed (up to 60' per move), but doesn't allow running at the increased speed. So Vaek drank the potion, moved 60'. She moved 60', used a misfortune hex.
In regards to Sic's questions, they had been using a message spell. For the chase it was a matter of follow the leader, they could see where Vaek was heading (at least the witch could initially) and everyone else just moved in the general same direction she was moving.
The guards splitting up was just the guards being guards, trying to cover all possible escape routes.
Thanks GM Ascension - I dont envy you with this PVP mess.
Can we try to keep the bulk of the OOC convo's to the discussion thread. (im just as guilty)?
Do you Flying PC's need to make Fly skill checks? How often?
Tony you should take Fly to even the playing field.
Now that PVP is over is it level up time?
Im a bit torn over going Cleric or Ranger.
Pros
Cleric - 2 more spells per day, better saves.
Ranger - +2 to Intitiative and 4 skills while in Coran, trapfinding
Just realized that we are now a thieves guild with no rogues!
Gm Ascension - thoughts on retraining? Sic is thinking of changing out his ranger levels for rogue.
Is it reasonable to think, that while they are in the process of capturing me, that I would be able to drink my healing potions... if for no other reason than they can't have them?
Damn, they got you? Might be worth spending that free Resurection to get away if only so they dont clean you of gear.
They will get the gear even with the free res. Vaek just gets a new copy of it.
Everyone should level to 6.
Thats like the mage group with no mages :).
Because each group has lost 1 player each several have asked about switching things around to get better group balance.
Go ahead Sic (and Anthony if you want who'd asked about some things in PM) and change one of your classes, or re-balance levels taken.
Do I level up right now as well, or do I wait until they kill me or I escape etc.
If you are changing things up, it may be worth nothing, that flavor aside, since this is a pvp game, so make changes that improve the PVP side of things.
I know I for one am not particularly created for PVP. But I do like my character. So I dont plan to change him other then to ensure i choose pvp style feats and such.
I hear you Vaek. I didnt create Sic with optimization in mind either. I'll weigh both sides of changing or not changing. Might at least look at swapping out a feat or two. Selective Channel might have been real handy in that last scenario.
Ideas?
Oh, if anyone has any suggestions for Saul to optimize him, feel free to say so (which I probably should have allowed ya'll to do earlier)....
(Oh, if it's cool with the DM, of course)
Id probably suggest Iron Will and Cosmopolitan, although sadly, neither are Combat feats so will have to wait untill level 7 and 9.
Iron Will for obvious reasons, Cosmopolitan because you could gain Perception and Sense Motive as class skills, making your Alertness feat more relevant.
I dont know if youve had any character changes yet, but a bit of feat shuffle might be in order if allowed.
Saul would probably benefit from adding a +1 (1000) to his shield and/or Resistance to his cloak (1500)
Pretty sure Sic is going to add another level of Cleric and will most likely not switch up Ranger for Rogue.
Any optimization ideas Tony?
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Well, since you asked for it... :)
For equipment, id advice you to pick up a masterworked Buckler. Even if it isnt Sics style, he probably knows better than most that having something and not needing it is alot better than needing it and not having it. Being masterworked, it wont affect his twohanded swings with the battleaxe, but its always ready if he needs it. Id prioritize getting magical bonuses on that over your armor, since we might find better armor for you, but the Buckler will always be your go to shield (however, ignore this last bit if you take the next suggestion).
Again, a matter of style here, but you asked for optimization so ill mention it. Breastplate. It may have 2 more check penalty and slow you to 20 foot speed, but the +2 AC (assuming a +1 Breastplate) is well worth it, especially with haste usually being handy. Sic is never going to be our go to stealth man anyway, and not getting dead is more important than not getting spotted (Again situations may make this statement rather variable in truth)
When gold becomes more plentiful, id strongly suggest adding Conductive to your Battle axe. Being able to apply Bleeding Touch through your weapon is a great damage boost, especially considering it deals damage emideatly and again on the victims turn, meaning its atleast 2d6 damage unless an ally heals them before their turn. Also, your damage with Battle Axe is currently +5, not +4 (3 str bonus x 1.5 for twohanded +1 enchantment)
Id suggest a wisdom item at some point as well, but thats probably obvious, even so, gonna mention it.
Aquire an invisibility Potion asap. Even with one memorized, you really need a backup.
City raised also gives you Whip proficiency...you should have one just because you can use it and it might come in handy (And Sic seems like the sort who would enjoy giving someone a few licks with a lash before finishing them :P)
I think you may have forgotten to spend a skill point. 12 for the Ranger levels and 12 for the Cleric levels (im assuming favoured bonus into skills). Youve currently spent 23. Sense Motive would probably be a good home for it. Getting more than one rank in Disguise also doesnt do you all that much good, partly because you really need to max it for it to be good and partly because disguise self does the job just fine as long as people dont interact with the illusion (which is all the time for most situation). Freeing that point up could further increase Sense Motive. Id suggest putting your points into Bluff, Sense Motive and either Perception or Stealth whenever you level up.
Your Feats are Ironhide, Deceitful and Scent yes? None of them are bad, Scent in particular can come in extremely handy vs Invisibility. Your build doesnt really favour much in the way of combat feats, so im hard pressed to give advice on what to take next level. If you were to swap a feat of the three, Deceitful (See Disguise comment) is probably the weakest. Im torn on suggesting Power Attack. Its a really nice feat in general and you are sporting almost full BaB for your level. However without a massive starting attack bonus like the one Saul is sporting, dropping from a +9 to a +7 may not be worth it in PvP. While affected by Haste though, which should be most of the time, it becomes alot more attractive. A Quick Drawn onehander from your Scabbard of Vigor in conjunction with Power Attack and an extra +1 to hit and an extra attack from Haste could be devestating.(A longsword twohanded with a +3 Scabbard effect would be two attacks with +10 dealing 1d8 + 13 damage each with Power Attack.) Assuming Bulls Strength this just gets better.
Assuming tweaks are allowed, you could swap your Quick Draw ranger feat, for Power Attack.
Posting this seperately because it applies to everyone.
Aquire a single use wonderous item of Expeditious Retreat, like a small marble you crush or something similar (since it cant go in a potion)
Price is the same (50 gold) as a potion.
Very cool and much appreciated Tony.
I'll certainly take all of those under advisement. Lots of homework for Sic now.
here's another item that could come in real handy for us thieves.
Pathfinder's Pouch (1,000 gp): This little gem from Seekers of Secrets functions as a small bag of holding, allowing one to store up to 10 pounds of items within its 2-cubic-feet limit. Why is it special? Because detect magic ain't got nothing on this pro—thus, a Pathfinder can keep important or dangerous items safe in its confines with little worry from guards, customs, and random searches. Even if the pouch is opened and turned upside down with a shake, as long as the proper command word remains unspoken, nothing in the extradimensional space will fall out.
Also Saul, since you already asked earlier, im gonna add this.
Martial Versatility, while cool, is very unlikely to matter much for Saul. Hed be better served simply carrying a mundane backup Tonfa just in case.
Also, to elaborate on my comment about Cosmopolitan for gaining Perception and Sense Motive as class skills, if you Arent gonna be grabbing that, Alertness really isnt worth much, especially when Saul is accompanied by someone else in the party with a far better bonus to those skills.
Its worth considering dropping Alertness for Iron Will.
Much like Sic, if you dont want to use a large shield, get a buckler instead. If you worry about being able to dual weild for a shield slam, weilding a second Tonfa in the offhand gives more damage, while benefiting from Weapon Specialization. Not that two weapon fighting is ever a good idea without the feat ofc.
And im only mentioning this last bit because Sic had the drastic option of changing his Ranger levels, so maybe this will be on the table as well...
The type of fighter you seem to want Saul to be, would more easily be accomplished with a Weapon Finesse build, using 14 Str and 18 Dex. He would lose 2 points of weapon damage, but be able to use light armor like you wanted and have better stealth (both through higher Dex and lower check penalty). Down the line as his Dex increases, he would also get better AC, and with the application of the Agile Enchant to his weapon, be able to get the same damage.
Damn Tony, you got this stuff all figured out! Glad you're not in one of the other groups.
Figure I may as well also throw in my stats for Tony to look at; see if I missed anything. :)
It's also worth pointing out that unless our GM makes an exception, the Agile enchant is not in UE, and does not exist in this world.
Damn Tony, you got this stuff all figured out! Glad you're not in one of the other Groups.
Yeees, bow before your lord and master! Honor the munchkin, fear the munchkin!
It's also worth pointing out that unless our GM makes an exception, the Agile enchant is not in UE, and does not exist in this world.
Hmm true, guess im just too used to PbPs playing by the "Any official Paizo" clause. Heres to hoping its okayed :)
Figure I may as well also throw in my stats for Tony to look at; see if I missed anything. :)
Your character is pretty damn solid, not really seeing much that could be changed with the current level selection.
However I have to comment on the Brass Knuckles and associated Weapon Focus. Brass Knuckles do not deal unarmed damage, and do not qualify as unarmed attacks for feats. There was a book at one point where both Knuckles and the Cestus allowed it, but that "mistake" was quickly fixed in errata. The only thing they are really good for on a monk is overcoming damage reduction like Adamantine and Cold iron.
An easy fix is to swap to Weapon Focus(unarmed) and paying 500 gold to swap the +1 knuckles for a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists. If there is already some agreement in place with the GM on this matter, ofc disregard.
As far as character restructuring goes (Again refering back to Sics option to switch Ranger for Rogue) two levels of Lore Warden Fighter would let Sorad drop his Int to a 10, since Lore Warden gets Combat Expertise for free, as well as the two Fighter Feats. Im guessing thats what hes got the 13 Int for? Or is it for character flavor? He would ofcourse lose 8 skill points in the process, but gain 4 HP from the fighter HD. Three "free" feats aint too shabby.
I also have to mention the Qinggong Archetype. It lets you swap Monk abilities for Ki abilities, as long as you dont swap abilities your other Archetypes affect. A particularly good one is being able to cast Bark Skin on yourself for 1 Ki point using your Monk level as Caster Level, meaning its got full scaling for the eventual +5 Natural armor.
Your Knuckles (2000), Hat of digsuise (1800) and Wisdom Headband (4000) also only come out to barely 8000. Did I miss some equipment or did the last 2000 gold all go into potions O.o?
@DM - Do I level up now, or wait until the roleplaying with the merchants guild is complete?
I have used a fair number of potions, but yes, I'm missing more than 1000. Thanks for the catch!
And yes, the knuckles were worked out with the GM. The int is partially flavor, partially I didn't have room for the 3 points anywhere else.
Level up now Vaek.
Posting this seperately because it applies to everyone.Aquire a single use wonderous item of Expeditious Retreat, like a small marble you crush or something similar (since it cant go in a potion)
Price is the same (50 gold) as a potion.
Ixnay on this. I allowed Vaek the one as I hadn't caught it earlier. Otherwise the route to this is a wand of Exp Retreat and train UMD.
Note that the DC for using a wand is 20. Getting a rank of 10 in UMD would allow you to take 10 (when in a non-stressful situation) to use it at will. Otherwise 50% chance to succeed during combat or stress situation. (Of course higher UMD would be better when your life is depending on it).
Saul, yes you may make adjustments.
Hmm, bummer.
How about something like 1/day boots then? Or asked more generally, are custom items right out, or on a case by case basis?
Case by case basis. Things that perfectly match existing spells, abilities, feats, etc are more likely to be declined if a magical item to do so does not already exist.
Relooking at it...with Saul and Sorad making a very strong front line perhaps Sic would better serve the Guild by going straight Cleric 6?
He'd lose out skill point, save and BAB wise but gain better channel and 3rd level spells.
Worth it?
DISCLAIMER: The following is very intrusive character Building guidelines, outlining "how to build" Sic. I tried to keep it true to Sics current abilities, while making the character generally more effective at the things Sic wants to be good at. Read on at your own peril, you have been warned.
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As before, I only mention this because character changes are on the table. Its rather drastic change in Class levels, but "feel wise" it wouldnt chance Sic much at all.
1 level of cleric, 5 levels of Inquisitor.
Combat healing is generally ineffective most of the time, and without access to positive channeling, even more so. I think the party is generally better served with another frontliner who has the capacity for healing afterwards, using wands.
The single level of Cleric has several purposes. Firstly it gains two domains, one of which you turn into the Heresy Inquisition. The Heresy Inquisition lets you use you Wisdom instead of your charisma when making Bluff checks.
The other Domain, which will be taken by your Inquisitor levels as well, would likely be your Death Domain, granting you the Bleeding Touch at full level.
The Cleric level also gives you Channel energy. The feat Channeling Scourge allows you to count Inquisitor levels as Cleric levels when calculating Channeling damage, meaning you will have full channeling.
The Inquisitor has full access to all the class skills you want and gains 6 skill points pr level, letting you easily max several of them, while 1 point dipping into a few useful ones.
I would suggest the Heretic Archetype for the Inquisitor levels. It gets you a couple of abilities, most notable of which is the ability to ADD wisdom to your Bluff and Stealth skills. With the previously mentioned Heresy Inquisition, which allows you to use Wisdom INSTEAD of charisma for Bluff, you effectively get Wisdom to Bluff twice :P
If you arent too interested in the Teamwork Feats the Inquisitor gets, the Preacher Archetype is a good alternative, giving you several nice abilities usable once pr day, +1 more time for every Teamwork Feat you trade in (So as a level 5 Inquisitor you could use it twice pr day if you trade in the teamwork feat). Solo Tactics is a cool ability though.
Then ofcourse theres all the Little nifty things like like Stern Gaze, Judgement, Bane, Wisdom to Initiative and all that good stuff.
------
All in all, the Inquisitor is a really nice fit for Sic, making him generally more effective, while keeping almost all of the abilites he had previously.
With the boosts to bluff he would be getting, id suggest dropping the Deceitful Feat for the Channeling Scourge Feat.
Id also look into shifting the your stats around to gain a 17 or 18 Wisdom, since it becomes such a good stat for you. With the lessened need for Charisma, dropping that to a 10 would only lose you a single channel use, and, in my opinion, thats well worth it.
Further dropping Charisma to an 8 would get you the 18 Wisdom. It does ofcourse drop your Channel uses down to 2, but snatching up xtra channel at level 7 would leave you at 4 pr day, which should likely be plenty.
Its also has the added bonus of making Sics charisma match his generally creepy and gruff demeanor, whilst not impacting his ability to pursuade people due to his reliance on Wisdom. I personally like it :P
Motha Effin brilliant Tony.
All of that sounds good and you have a great read on Sic. Dont know why I never looked at Inquisitor before...you might just get that lieutenant spot after all.
I might drop Str a bit to get the higher wis...looking at maybe
13 Str - 3 point buy
10 Dex - 0
14 Con - 5 point buy
10 Int - 0
18 Wis - 7 point buy +2 Orc + 1 4th
14 Cha - 5 point buy
Just a thought, we may want to take another language, in the even that the enemies start casting know language spells. Thus forcing them to burn another low level spell to know the 2nd language. As well as forcing them to use a round to do it.
I like the inquisitor idea for Sic.
Taking a second guild language would also be very useful, as they will eventually figure out what we're using and take it themselves.
Eragar
