Hmmm was just flipping through the last few rounds of combat, trying to see if there was anything important I wasnt taking into account, since getting in amongst so many enemies to rescue Vaek is gonna be dangerous even with invisibility. Funnily enough, it was something near the end here that I hadnt actually managed to notice.
The Witch cast Detect Magic...thats...awfully convenient. I realize they are running Message to communicate, but a far as I can tell, none of our enemies were in a position to see me go invisible, and with it being a potion, there was no spellcasting to identify either.
Now Anthony as well as myself knows theres not a whole lot of reasons to run around in battle casting detect magic, unless you know someone is invisible nearby and you dont have any other means of finding them.
So with that said, I hope its not too much to ask if someone in the other group saw him go invisible?
Are you saying that a caster can use Detect Magic to spot someone that's invisible? I'm not buying it. Detect Magic is a cantrip. See Invisibility is at best a 2nd level spell. What's the point of even knowing it if a 0 level spell will just do the same thing? If it does work like that then our group is pretty much nerfed.
Three rounds of concentration lets you pinpoint the location of each magical aura. If you know what type you are looking for (Illusion in this case), by making Knowledge(Arcana) checks, you can identify the auras and unless theres more than one Illusion aura that you cannot see (since you could rule out any visible illusions present like Minor Image or something), you can tell exactly where an invisible enemy is.
Which is the only application of Detect Magic I can think of in the current battle. It wouldnt allow the caster to actually target the invisible enemy, since they still cant see them, but would allow them to hit you reliably with area effects like Fireball (or for this battle, Glitterdust). Ofcourse as soon as they cast something they would stop concentrating on Detect Magic and lose track of you again, needing another 3 rounds of concentration to find you once more.
At the time you drank the potion there were no known combatants you could see that would have been able to pin point you hiding around the corner.
Detect magic can be used to locate invisible things, but its effectiveness at doing so is pretty limited. The invisible object needs to be in your range and direction of focus for those rounds. A moving target could be very hard to track this way if they are moving into our out of the cone effect of the spell during those rounds. e.g., I wouldn't let a person use detect magic, focus on an area for three straight rounds, then if a invisible creature moved into the area they'd go "Oh, I know exactly where you are". Instead the first round they'd sense the presence of magic that wasn't there before (assuming the area was devoid of magic to begin with), 2nd round they'd know the number of additional auras and if one of the new aura's was more powerful than any previously detected ones. Third round they'd be able to pinpoint the location.
Good call GM Ascension!
The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
Does the "particular area" bit mean, that if the casters moves even 5 feet, the "study duration" resets, since they are effectively studying a new area? If thats the case, that does indeed make it alot worse for finding Invisible things that arent stationary.
Per RAW that is my reading of it. Really the spell is designed, IMO, to study a single item, or to study a room/structure/whatever that is stationery.
I would allow some leeway in that if a person were moving around slowly (say half speed or something) I'd let them accumulate rounds for information on aura's that stay within the area of effect while they are moving.
There's actually a thread that discusses this in detail.
Sorad, would you mind telling me how much gold we have earned each during gameplay? Im having a hard time remembering if ive subtracted the cost of the Hat of Disguise I commissioned or not.
The total for each of us is 1722. I'm too tired to work the fractions from that for our group loot, but i can do that as well tomorrow if you want.
Just a heads up that I will be gone until Saturday night. Anthony is free to control Sorad until then. His stat block is already updated to level six.
Also, with Mael gone are we getting a new recruit, or are we just down a man?
Wait, we leveled?
As soon as this current conflict is over everyone is leveling to 6.
Staying one man down - every group has lost one person at this point due to busy lives, serious medical conditions, or other reasons.
Standard action to use escape artist, so you can't drink in the same turn. However...
nm, forgot about the Wisdom and passive bonuses to a monks CMD, likely putting even a flatfooted average monk at 19+
Given Vaek isn't making a counter-grapple I don't believe he gets to negate his opponents dex bonus in this case. Doing a counter grapple would give him that bonus, but also end his invisibility as the grapple is form of attack.
If a grappled creature becomes invisible ... it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
Which +2 bonus I'm also applying to the escape artist check (this isn't strict RAW, but seems to be the intent given attacking while invisible gives +2, defending against a grapple while invisible also grants +2, really seems it ought to apply to escape artist against a grapple as well.
But, the monk is currently carrying a medium load and as a result loses his wis/monk level bonuses to AC/CMD. This puts Vaek beating his CMD.
The opposing side asked about Vaek being prone, which he is essentially as he is flung over the undine's shoulder, so I'm applying a DC 15 acrobatics check on Vaek to land on his feet when he escapes - this is being based off the rules for failing a acrobatics jump check to fall 10' without taking damage - though in this case a failed roll still won't result in damage.
All of this is pending a double check from the other side on my numbers for the undine, but it is their action anyway, so there is going to be some wait regardless.
not that it matters now that he has apparently escaped, but he is still making his escape artist attempt against the Undines CMD, which amongst other Things includes Dex. You Loose your Dex bonus vs an invisible enemy. Admittedly Theres no word on whether this applies when using Escape Artist "against" him to escape a grapple.
Im curious what you mean by counter grapple. Does that mean that if fx Anthony gets grappled while invisible, since hes got a non existent Escape Artist, using his CMB to escape would turn him visible?
please disregard the weirdly placed Capitol letters, currently writing on an old laptop which is doing all sorts of weird stuff.
Invisibility technically only denies dex bonus to AC (which seems odd it wouldn't deny dex against combat maneuvers). But in either case it seems designed to deny dex against attacks but not against other things where dex might matter (e.g, an invisible wizard casting fireball doesn't deny dex on the reflex saves).
As for grapple breaking invis, I conflated some of the rules.
"Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature"
If you were trying to reverse the grapple that would break invis. If you are just trying to break free of the grapple it would not.
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD
This was what was confusing me on the matter. I was thinking you are flat-footed vs an invisible attacker, but flat-footed is a condition specific to the surprise round it seems.
For a moment I tought being denied your Dex to AC would by extension of the "AC penalty" clause deny it to CMD, but then I realized its not a "penalty to AC" and if that was the case, the line about flat-footed would be completely redundant.
You win this round DM *ShakesFist*
Heres a question though. Does the 50% miss chance from total concealment apply to Grapple checks to maintain a grapple? You are tecnically still attacking the defenders CMD.
I don't think so based on the line from turning invisible after already being in a grapple "...it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled (or really to avoid remaining in the grapple), but receives no other benefit."
Bold is my own added wording.
This seems a somewhat gray area in the rules though if you happen to have any thread discussion links that talk about this.
It would apply though to avoid being grappled in the first place.
Since Vaek was being carried by the Undine, effectively occupying the same Square, when he escapes, can he choose which Square he is placed in, before he moves his 15 feet move? If thats the case he may want to go somewhere else possibly (Vaek?)
The funny thing is I was kind going I wouldn't be rescued. I was looking forward to roleplaying what I assume would be an interrogation before they killed me. But I didn't want to metagame that. Now let's see if I can really escape before they summon another spider.
lol, yeah I get what you are saying. Death would likely not be in the Cards though, more likely they would ship you off to some far away prison, effectively "killing" your character permanently. Not that the roleplay wouldnt likely be fun, just sayin.
In removing the web, am I able to use one of the short swords I have to cut free? would this be considered an attack therefore removing my invisibility. Or since i'm not actually attacking a living thing, I am free to do it?
Okay, apologies for all the back and forth on this. There was one thing I overlooked on the monk, he has improved grapple.
This raises his CMD for grapple related checks to 19, Vados is indeed still stuck, and being held in place at T65.
Technically imp grapple only applies to making a grapple roll or avoiding being grappled. But if I argue invisibility gives a +2 to escape artist against a grapple I can't really argue that imp grapple doesn't give its +2 bonus to all things grapple related - making a grapple, avoiding being grappled, breaking free from a grapple, or preventing another from breaking free from that grapple.
In a player vs NPC's situation this wouldn't really be an issue, but with both your and their players at stake I want to make sure I really am being as fair as possible in the outcome.
Vaek you might get your wish of being captured after all.
As for the web, using the swords won't really help. Really it just comes down to a separate escape artist check against the DC of the webbing.
lol, yeah I get what you are saying. Death would likely not be in the Cards though, more likely they would ship you off to some far away prison, effectively "killing" your character permanently. Not that the roleplay wouldnt likely be fun, just sayin.
If it comes down to it I'd still allow the free res as a 'free escape' instead.
Heh, at this point, I don't care either way. I am mostly looking at the revenge aspect, as I really just want to kill their rules nazi even if I do no other meaningful thing in this game.
So since I wasn't able to escape, am I able to drink a healing potion?
Now being invisible, if I do a mirror image. Does that mean, that even if they hit me from the 50% chance to miss, would I get the benefit of the mirror images? so they could just hit that instead?. In real life, I would say it wouldn't matter, but Pathfinder rules, doesn't always use a "common sense" approach on such things.
The attempt to escape consumed your standard action, so you can't drink a potion. You could grab a potion out of your bags as your move action though so that you have it for next round if you want.
Mirror image is purely a visual effect, so being invisible would make mirror image have no effect.
We should probably try to use conventional Stealth without relying on Invisibility once we start running away. With See Invisibility on the Witch (and no real way to be sure if shes following us or not), relying on it is probably a bad idea.
Im curious what Sics plan is. Im left wondering if you (the player) havnt realized that what Anthony said was yelled (so he should have heard it). I admit its not actually spelled out, but that was my intent with it.
Good point Tony. We're gonna have rehash and rethink some tactics when this confrontation is over.
and uh, yah...I completely missed your cyclopean yelling before posting.
Hopefully Sic just provided enough of a distraction to help Vaek get away.
FYI - I'm headed on vacation tomorrow and will be gone until July 8. Out hotel has the internet though so I should be able to stay up with my posting but if I'm lagging or holding up the game feel free to DMPC or have Tony run Sic.
Sic will be doing whatever it takes to get away at this point.
GM still hasnt gotten back to us with an update, maybe you can still change your action?
You and me havnt been targeted by the Sleep Hex yet, so we should prioritize our own hides getting away from her, one failed will save and it game over. Vaek is safe from it for 24 hours, and quite frankly, the witch is the only one who can get any of us at this point barring something extraordinary being up their sleeve.
I seem to remember that when I first read your post there was just the OOC comments. Bug maybe?
He definitely would've broke north with no delay if he heard Tony yelling that the witch could see him.
I actually did do some editing of it. Talk about lousy timing on you reading it then huh -.-
I seem to remember that when I first read your post there was just the OOC comments. Bug maybe?
He definitely would've broke north with no delay if he heard Tony yelling that the witch could see him.
Using this action as the other would be complete suicide.
I there maybe a window on the building hes trying to get around, where he could jump through like the halfling did at the inn?
I there maybe a window on the building hes trying to get around, where he could jump through like the halfling did at the inn?
He could try that.
It is a DC 10 bull rush attempt to break through the window. Getting less than 10 leaves him stopped outside the window. 10-14 gets him 5' inside the window. For every 5 above 10 he can move an additional 5' beyond the inside of the window, though we will hit a wall at 20+ anyway and be stopped. He will take 1d4 points of slashing damage if he makes it through.
The attempt would also require a DC 12 acrobatics roll. The windows in the inn went nearly all the way to the ground. These are 3' above the ground.
How dark are these streets. Are they dark enough that dark vision kicks in. Or light enough that it doesn't meaning I could get out of sight range and use stealth in the even that the witch has dark vision
Not dark enough yet. You've still got ~30 minutes till night time.
I get a bit obsessive when PvP is involved in a Pathfinder game, and with the PbP format, ive been spending more time than I probably should, looking over what has happened and looking for things to use in future rounds.
During my prowling of previous turns I realized that there is never any mention of why Vaek is entangled. Its very possible I missed it though.
The turn he was knocked unconscious the spider begin to wrap him in the webbing. The following round the undine picked him up. It's possible I mentioned that to the other group and didn't get it copied into this groups posts.
Hmm odd, in our thread it goes, Spider charge Vaek - Vaek get glitterdust - Undine knocks Vaek unconcious - spider scuttles into cloud - Undine picks up Vaek.
Even if they wanted it to wrap up Vaek, wouldnt it automatically go for the next concious enemy its summoner knew about, the moment its current target went down, whether it went down to non-lethal or lethal damage?
Just a heads up while I remember it, this upcoming weekend I will likely be completely unavailable from Friday afternoon untill late Monday. I may be able to sneak to a computer at one point or another, but lets assume I wont.
Hmm odd, in our thread it goes, Spider charge Vaek - Vaek get glitterdust - Undine knocks Vaek unconcious - spider scuttles into cloud - Undine picks up Vaek.
Even if they wanted it to wrap up Vaek, wouldnt it automatically go for the next concious enemy its summoner knew about, the moment its current target went down, whether it went down to non-lethal or lethal damage?
Here is how it should have went.
Round 6 (I think, maybe round 7).
Undine smacks Maeltheron.
Vaek vanishes and runs SW.
Spider gets summoned and tracks him.
Glitterdust reveals him.
Round 7
Undine knocks him unconscious.
Spider begins to wrap him up (missing from this thread). Spider probably should have gone after someone else, no one was visible to it, but tremorsense should have given it 'sight' on enemies anyway - although no one had threatened it either.
Round 8
Undine picks up Vaek, spider moves north (through the stinking cloud) towards Sic and is out the rest of the fight.
Calling out specific distances AND using North, East, South, West? So basically one person with See invisibility makes everyone know the exact square as long as you spend an out of turn free action to say it?
"Hes ten feet North, then 30 East, go get him."
Id personally call it a perception check to direct people to a specific distance, so in this instance, calling out 35 feet to Vaek would be a DC 35 Perception check (really once you get past the first 15 feet or so, eyeballing distance becomes iffy VERY fast, from my experience) So lets say you only roll a 24 round it to 25 and you "failed" by 10 feet, roll a 50/50 and the character either over (45) or underestimates (25) the distance and thats how far your character think it is to the target.
Ofcourse anyone following those directions would also roll a Perception check, possibly going further or shorter distances, depending on how they roll.
I really should be hard, fx ive had to try to direct family and friends to stand in the right spot for a photo many times, and it always takes atleast 3-4 failed attempts at it before they are in the right spot...and thats usually at the 10-20 foot mark.
Then theres the matter of knowing true North, something covered by Survival and usually requiring atleast a move action (like rolling Knowledge checks fx)
Really, even if the character succeeds at this Survival check, EVERYONE who wanted to use those directions would likely have to spend an action to realize North as well. Normally you could just point, but since the Witch is herself Invisible, thats not an option either.
A little meta-gamey to call out a specific distance, though a 'He is fleeing directly east of the halfling Shiv' would have given the same information.
Maybe, but again, knowing direction is Survival, and how would they know where to stop and surround? Wouldnt they just set off into a run in that direction? And this is again with an invisible person calling it out and unable to point so they would still need individual survival rolls to know which way that is.
So in closing, im gonna call shenanigans, but as always, im not the GM.
I got curious about the DC to find north with Survival, turns out, you can do it automatically if you have any ranks in the skill. Apparently this is the only way to do so, you cant even try if you arent trained in Survival.
And Witches dont get Survival as a class skill, so im inclined to suspect she doesnt have any ranks.
Id also like to make a correction to my earlier suggestion about Perception to gauge distances, namely the DC. It should probably be more like half the distance you are trying to gauge, with the regular +1 DC pr 10 feet you are away from the starting point of the distance you are trying to measure. So in the above example with the photo, a normal human has about a 50/50 shot of gauging a 20 foot distance precisely.
I can concur that guaging distances is extremely difficult. I worked construction for a dozen years and even with reading a tape measure most of the day every day its becomes very relative fast. Directions should be made similar to "hes near the corner of that building there" or "hes this side of that fountain near the center" or "to the left of that tall guy" coupled with finger pointing. Anthony's numbers sound resonable for guaging DC's.
and it should be worth mentioning that it seemed like she gave false directions "west of Shiv" when Vaek was really "east" shouldve had them all going in the wrong direction. Completely understandable if the witch doesnt have Survival.
That's an interesting tidbit regarding knowing true north. To bad they didn't give any info on determining north without survival.
The east/west I chocked up to a player error (I do that sometimes) and not character error.
DC of half distance to judge accurately sounds like it might work well. I'd probably have to roll those secretly, it gets a little complicated though in that the person who can see the target needs to be able to make accurate movements and take accurate actions while I somehow prevent that information being available to allies - something like position is really hard not to metagame. Purposely missing the target is metagaming in the other direction.
Spoiler? PM? And a seperate map maybe? Then the player just says if they want to direct their allies to the enemy, and you roll and tell them how far they actually end up saying it is.
The maps aren't an issue. I hide invisible opponents. For see invisibility I gave the witch the exact map location in a spoiler.
Spoilers can be partially effective, but I know some players are habitual spoiler openers (don't know if that is the case for any of the players/groups in this game).
I think survival to judge distances would be more appropriate than perception.
Im personally guilty of spoiler curiosity, but thats primarily because I trust myself not to let what I read affect me. I always think from a character perspective as much as I am able.
As far as spoiler peeping and direction vs invisibility goes, if the directer gets the distance wrong, wouldnt any attempt to move to the right location and ignore the directions be a dead give away?
On the subject of Perception vs Survival, both make sense. I do like though that not every character gradually becomes a distance judging super hero (most players tend to aquire perception, whether by built in class skill or through trait, or atleast I should think so, most used skill in the game and all that.) So the distance judging badasses will be the Fighters, Rangers and Barbarians.
How far can a person see, even if it isn't dark enough to affect them? Where I have just sprinted 200 feet so i'm sure that will be very difficult to pin point my current position.
I am wanting to see if it is feasible for me to simply out run them and not worrying about dashing though alleyways. Though that may still be the best course of action.
If you keep running in a straight line it becomes and endurance test of you vs them (whoever has a higher con will most likely win). But the streets aren't going to let you pick a straight line for long enough anyway.