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I don't know why the fine people of this forum don't appear to be talking more about all the Player Core 2 previews and leaks coming out this week.
Redditors are literally making jokes about us still being hung up on the wizard class which was released ages ago when there's all this awesome new content to be covered and discussed.
Let's have a fresh topic about PC2's cncestries, classes, feats, spells, and other goodies, shall we?
First, we have the official blogs:
And here are a few YouTube that I've found discussing it:
Please share and discuss any other information you've found about the upcoming PC2!
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Not sure how you are getting that nobody is talking about it. I've seen tons of stuff (both on this forum and elsewhere) about the Alchemist and Swashbuckler especially (and some on Sorceror, Barbarian, and even Wrestler). Also videos on the Versatile Heritage including a full accounting of Dragon Blooded.
Unfortunately I'm on my mobile and not great with linking here, so I can't easily link them, but they are out there and not hard to fund and tons of people are talking.
Personally, I've been inspired to make an alchemist with all the details we've gotten so far. Just waiting for my copy to ship.
Also, please add Wisdom Check to your video links. I've found him informative and entertaining lately.
I'm not entirely sure what you are expecting.
First, we have the official blogs:
The Oracle
The Swashbuckler
The Champion
In addition, there are also threads on
Battle Oracle
Barbarian
more Barbarian
Alchemist
and some admittedly short discussions on
Swashbuckler
Investigator
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Monk archetype imposing a 1d4-round cooldown on Flurry of Blows was a pleasant surprise.
Less exciting than a minor boost to monks FoB at around 10th level, TBH.
It being a 1d4 round cooldown instead of a static length cooldown makes it annoying to plan around, to boot.
Sorry, this time I've decided not to do a round-up thread for the previews like for Player Core 1 and just absorb the news as it comes in. And hold out hope for an early shipping e-mail. :p
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Monk archetype imposing a 1d4-round cooldown on Flurry of Blows was a pleasant surprise.Less exciting than a minor boost to monks FoB at around 10th level, TBH.
It being a 1d4 round cooldown instead of a static length cooldown makes it annoying to plan around, to boot.
I think that was the point. Now people who take the monk archetype aren't going to be as consistent with FoB as monks are, making monks have a bit more of their kit to themselves. I'm also pretty sure that the 1d4 was inserted so that people could still, potentially, FoB more than once a fight if they got lucky, since the standard cooldowns graduate from 1/round, 1d4 rounds, 1/minute, 1/10 minutes, 1/hour, and 1/day.
The lowest of those is what the monk already has, and made FoB real easy to poach, while 1/minute means you're only ever getting to use FoB once per fight. Every 1d4 rounds is the rough medium between those two.
All true, but I'm with PossibleCabbage on this one: buffing the monk's FoB at 10th level would've been a much better way of protecting it's niche than nerfing the multiclass feat, even though both accomplish the same goal.
Still happy something happened, just disappointed it wasn't the more fun option.
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I feel there is a heavy trend in Remaster to kill what were previously the obvious power archetyping options, like Monk MC for FoB, Sentinel to get Heavy Armor for Barbarian, Sorcerer MC to get Dangerous Sorcery.
And champion archetypes losing heavy armor.
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I feel there is a heavy trend in Remaster to kill what were previously the obvious power archetyping options, like Monk MC for FoB, Sentinel to get Heavy Armor for Barbarian, Sorcerer MC to get Dangerous Sorcery.
Which makes the fact that you can still get Champion reaction at 6 all the more puzzling.
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I've been waiting for more too. I have a vested interest in the oracle archetype, just started a new campaign and I took it for my FA.
Me too. If it's any good, I might remake my current Age of Ashes character (an Ash Oracle free archetyping into Swashbuckler) into a Champion with an Oracle dedication instead so I can function more like a proper martial (and be a tank for our group).
To those wondering why I didn't just put Champion Dedication on my Oracle in the first place, it's because Champion only grants armor proficiencies as an Archetype (you only get Trained in Martial Weapons if it's your base class), meaning the only swords I could reasonably get access to via my character's Aiuvarin heritage were the finesse-based Rapier and Elven Curve Blade (and since my GM let me put Aiuvarin on a Dwarf, no access to Unconventional Weaponry). <_<
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Redditors are literally making jokes about us still being hung up on the wizard class which was released ages ago when there's all this awesome new content to be covered and discussed.
They aren't wrong, but neither are we.
But I don't feel I have that much that I particularly care about. The only PC2 class I really was invested in was the Investigator. But it doesn't sound like it got nearly as much love as I'd have hoped, so I'm a little checked out for the time being. That probably changes when I can go buy a copy.
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I for one would very much enjoy some extra info on sorcerers and investigators
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My take away on talking about class comparisons, etc. at this point is to wait until the player core 2 drops, we get the newest round of errata and to see what is changing in PFS about “Legacy” options. And even then, there is so much different content that individual tables can pull from that pretty much every class is going to be able to work the way that the people at the table want it to, as far as what feats/archetypes/spells/items they want to use that arguments about what class is best for X, is going to be so GM and table dependent that people will just talk about what they are playing and having fun with at their tables instead of what the game itself doesn’t allow.
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I'm also pretty sure that the 1d4 was inserted so that people could still, potentially, FoB more than once a fight if they got lucky, since the standard cooldowns graduate from 1/round, 1d4 rounds, 1/minute, 1/10 minutes, 1/hour, and 1/day.
The lowest of those is what the monk already has, and made FoB real easy to poach, while 1/minute means you're only ever getting to use FoB once per fight. Every 1d4 rounds is the rough medium between those two.
I just don't like the random part of it, if it was 1 round, or 2 rounds, or 3 rounds then you could plan a loop around it but 1d4 is a bummer.
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video on oracle
BadLuckGamer - Changes to Oracle
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It's just interesting to me that PC1 basically didn't have major nerfs (cantrips lost like 1-2 points of damage), but PC2 has 3 of them all in multiclass archetypes.
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Sometimes the best way to balance something is to weaken something else. Not the most fun way to balance, but sometimes the easiest and best way to do it.
I hear that Kobold ancestry is going to be reworked and reprinted in PC2. If anyone has information on that, I would be very interested in seeing it.
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This is probably my favorite part of the release cycle. The anticipation of some already having the new book and everyone wanting to talk about it.
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A Reddit user named Valdicue listed ancestry changes in Player Core 2. The kobold section mentions a new heritage and some new feats, as well as renamed options. I don't know if the list is comprehensive, but it should be helpful.
Cool. Thanks.
And lol:
if you want to be a dog, in pathfinder i mean, ...
I wonder if WatersLethe feels called out.
And, well... there is now Awakened Animal in Howl of the Wild. So...
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Monk archetype imposing a 1d4-round cooldown on Flurry of Blows was a pleasant surprise.Less exciting than a minor boost to monks FoB at around 10th level, TBH.
It being a 1d4 round cooldown instead of a static length cooldown makes it annoying to plan around, to boot.
I think that was the point. Now people who take the monk archetype aren't going to be as consistent with FoB as monks are, making monks have a bit more of their kit to themselves. I'm also pretty sure that the 1d4 was inserted so that people could still, potentially, FoB more than once a fight if they got lucky, since the standard cooldowns graduate from 1/round, 1d4 rounds, 1/minute, 1/10 minutes, 1/hour, and 1/day.
The lowest of those is what the monk already has, and made FoB real easy to poach, while 1/minute means you're only ever getting to use FoB once per fight. Every 1d4 rounds is the rough medium between those two.
All true, but I'm with PossibleCabbage on this one: buffing the monk's FoB at 10th level would've been a much better way of protecting it's niche than nerfing the multiclass feat, even though both accomplish the same goal.
Still happy something happened, just disappointed it wasn't the more fun option.
I feel like this nerf is way too heavy handed.
Flurry of Blows isn't particularly strong, and is a small portion of the Monk's identity, so I don't think "protecting its niche" is something that needed to be done when things like Champion archetype reactions are largely untouched.
But even more, I just don't see why anybody would bother wasting a level 10 class feat on this version of Flurry.
Monk archetype imposing a 1d4-round cooldown on Flurry of Blows was a pleasant surprise.Less exciting than a minor boost to monks FoB at around 10th level, TBH.
It being a 1d4 round cooldown instead of a static length cooldown makes it annoying to plan around, to boot.
I think that was the point. Now people who take the monk archetype aren't going to be as consistent with FoB as monks are, making monks have a bit more of their kit to themselves. I'm also pretty sure that the 1d4 was inserted so that people could still, potentially, FoB more than once a fight if they got lucky, since the standard cooldowns graduate from 1/round, 1d4 rounds, 1/minute, 1/10 minutes, 1/hour, and 1/day.
The lowest of those is what the monk already has, and made FoB real easy to poach, while 1/minute means you're only ever getting to use FoB once per fight. Every 1d4 rounds is the rough medium between those two.
All true, but I'm with PossibleCabbage on this one: buffing the monk's FoB at 10th level would've been a much better way of protecting it's niche than nerfing the multiclass feat, even though both accomplish the same goal.
Still happy something happened, just disappointed it wasn't the more fun option.
I feel like this nerf is way too heavy handed.
Flurry of Blows isn't particularly strong, and is a small portion of the Monk's identity, so I don't think "protecting its niche" is something that needed to be done when things like Champion archetype reactions are largely untouched.
But even more, I just don't see why anybody would bother wasting a level 10 class feat on this version of Flurry.
Most of the arguments that I've seen on this forum have claimed the opposite.
One action for 2 attacks is strong in this game and on a fighter it further enables crit fishing. on a barbarian it gives two more chances of getting in that extra rage damage. I would say its very good.Spoke without thinking it through there on the barbarian rage damage most monk weapons are agile.
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Flurry of blows is very strong. Gets even more strong at high level when you are getting hit by action altering spells and effects.
I noticed that being able to move and take two attacks with two actions instead of three, even the equivalent of a double move given monk speed is extremely strong when slowed or under some other action reduction effect. It made the monk very action efficient with more powerful abilities as they leveled.
Is there somewhere where the text of rascal (or any swashbuckler style for that matter) is seen in some of these videos? I want to see how bravado is exactly worded in each style so I can do an errata pass on my own swashbuckler styles lol.
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Monk archetype imposing a 1d4-round cooldown on Flurry of Blows was a pleasant surprise.Less exciting than a minor boost to monks FoB at around 10th level, TBH.
It being a 1d4 round cooldown instead of a static length cooldown makes it annoying to plan around, to boot.
I think that was the point. Now people who take the monk archetype aren't going to be as consistent with FoB as monks are, making monks have a bit more of their kit to themselves. I'm also pretty sure that the 1d4 was inserted so that people could still, potentially, FoB more than once a fight if they got lucky, since the standard cooldowns graduate from 1/round, 1d4 rounds, 1/minute, 1/10 minutes, 1/hour, and 1/day.
The lowest of those is what the monk already has, and made FoB real easy to poach, while 1/minute means you're only ever getting to use FoB once per fight. Every 1d4 rounds is the rough medium between those two.
All true, but I'm with PossibleCabbage on this one: buffing the monk's FoB at 10th level would've been a much better way of protecting it's niche than nerfing the multiclass feat, even though both accomplish the same goal.
Still happy something happened, just disappointed it wasn't the more fun option.
I feel like this nerf is way too heavy handed.
Flurry of Blows isn't particularly strong, and is a small portion of the Monk's identity, so I don't think "protecting its niche" is something that needed to be done when things like Champion archetype reactions are largely untouched.
But even more, I just don't see why anybody would bother wasting a level 10 class feat on this version of Flurry.
Most of the arguments that I've seen on this forum have claimed the opposite.
One action for 2 attacks is strong in this game and on a fighter it further enables crit fishing. on a barbarian it gives two more chances of getting in that extra rage...
There's no "extra chances", no one that is trying to play with any sort of tactics will attack more than twice on a turn unless playing a Flurry Ranger. MAP applies as normal on Flurry of Blows.
If someone wants to use Flurry of Blows to attack 4 times on a turn... Let them? That's a terrible use of three actions.
Flurry of Blows is action compression, in the same way Sudden Charge or other similar feats are. It's strong, but not "WE NEED TO NERF THIS" strong, it's just one more in the various action compression feats in the game.
My biggest problem is that this new version is so weak no one will pick it, but I don't think other classes having access to Flurry infringed on the Monk's identity, the class has so much more than "1 action attack twice".
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...Monk archetype imposing a 1d4-round cooldown on Flurry of Blows was a pleasant surprise.Less exciting than a minor boost to monks FoB at around 10th level, TBH.
It being a 1d4 round cooldown instead of a static length cooldown makes it annoying to plan around, to boot.
I think that was the point. Now people who take the monk archetype aren't going to be as consistent with FoB as monks are, making monks have a bit more of their kit to themselves. I'm also pretty sure that the 1d4 was inserted so that people could still, potentially, FoB more than once a fight if they got lucky, since the standard cooldowns graduate from 1/round, 1d4 rounds, 1/minute, 1/10 minutes, 1/hour, and 1/day.
The lowest of those is what the monk already has, and made FoB real easy to poach, while 1/minute means you're only ever getting to use FoB once per fight. Every 1d4 rounds is the rough medium between those two.
All true, but I'm with PossibleCabbage on this one: buffing the monk's FoB at 10th level would've been a much better way of protecting it's niche than nerfing the multiclass feat, even though both accomplish the same goal.
Still happy something happened, just disappointed it wasn't the more fun option.
I feel like this nerf is way too heavy handed.
Flurry of Blows isn't particularly strong, and is a small portion of the Monk's identity, so I don't think "protecting its niche" is something that needed to be done when things like Champion archetype reactions are largely untouched.
But even more, I just don't see why anybody would bother wasting a level 10 class feat on this version of Flurry.
Most of the arguments that I've seen on this forum have claimed the opposite.
One action for 2 attacks is strong in this game and on a fighter it further enables crit fishing. on a barbarian it gives two more chances of
They didn't nerf it. It's a core mechanic of the monk that was wiser not to improve and better to nerf it for archetypes like they did spellstrike or sneak attack or precise strike or any ability unique to a class.
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...Monk archetype imposing a 1d4-round cooldown on Flurry of Blows was a pleasant surprise.Less exciting than a minor boost to monks FoB at around 10th level, TBH.
It being a 1d4 round cooldown instead of a static length cooldown makes it annoying to plan around, to boot.
I think that was the point. Now people who take the monk archetype aren't going to be as consistent with FoB as monks are, making monks have a bit more of their kit to themselves. I'm also pretty sure that the 1d4 was inserted so that people could still, potentially, FoB more than once a fight if they got lucky, since the standard cooldowns graduate from 1/round, 1d4 rounds, 1/minute, 1/10 minutes, 1/hour, and 1/day.
The lowest of those is what the monk already has, and made FoB real easy to poach, while 1/minute means you're only ever getting to use FoB once per fight. Every 1d4 rounds is the rough medium between those two.
All true, but I'm with PossibleCabbage on this one: buffing the monk's FoB at 10th level would've been a much better way of protecting it's niche than nerfing the multiclass feat, even though both accomplish the same goal.
Still happy something happened, just disappointed it wasn't the more fun option.
I feel like this nerf is way too heavy handed.
Flurry of Blows isn't particularly strong, and is a small portion of the Monk's identity, so I don't think "protecting its niche" is something that needed to be done when things like Champion archetype reactions are largely untouched.
But even more, I just don't see why anybody would bother wasting a level 10 class feat on this version of Flurry.
Most of the arguments that I've seen on this forum have claimed the opposite.
One action for 2 attacks is strong in this game and on a fighter it further enables crit fishing. on a barbarian it
That's... My point dude.
Flurry of Blows isn't the monk's identity, the class has so much more.
There are also several other classes that can get their mechanics borrowed via archetypes. Most notable of them all is the Champion.
Someone else getting Flurry of Blows doesn't make the Monk less of a Monk.
If they wanted to make the Monk's Flurry more unique they should've buffed it, because the nerfed archetype version is terrible and not worth the level 10 class feat it costs.
Nothing about this nerf is wise.
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Flurry of Blows isn't the monk's identity, the class has so much more.
Flurry of Blows is action compression,
Flurry of Blows by itself may not be the Monk's identity. But action compression *is* the Monk's identity.
Between FoB and a Monk's speed and Ki Rush and the fact that most Monks always have a free hand and never need to draw a weapon, the Monk's shtick is being able to accomplish more in a turn than most other classes can.
So not letting other classes multiclass into the best version of one of their signature moves is a great change.
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I disagree on FoB not being strong or the monk's identity. If you ever saw a monk in PF2e even if FoB looks worse than something like Double Slice it actually isn´t, though in the very early levels it isn't that fantastic I agree. In regards to being part of its class identity, FoB has been pretty much the defining monk feature since at least 3e (and I don't know if it existed earlier than that). All the D&D and D&D-adjacent monks have FoB, and in the case of PF2e, FoB is the monk's damage steroid, even if it technically doesn't give you a damage boost (it does in action economy, not raw damage).
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...Monk archetype imposing a 1d4-round cooldown on Flurry of Blows was a pleasant surprise.Less exciting than a minor boost to monks FoB at around 10th level, TBH.
It being a 1d4 round cooldown instead of a static length cooldown makes it annoying to plan around, to boot.
I think that was the point. Now people who take the monk archetype aren't going to be as consistent with FoB as monks are, making monks have a bit more of their kit to themselves. I'm also pretty sure that the 1d4 was inserted so that people could still, potentially, FoB more than once a fight if they got lucky, since the standard cooldowns graduate from 1/round, 1d4 rounds, 1/minute, 1/10 minutes, 1/hour, and 1/day.
The lowest of those is what the monk already has, and made FoB real easy to poach, while 1/minute means you're only ever getting to use FoB once per fight. Every 1d4 rounds is the rough medium between those two.
All true, but I'm with PossibleCabbage on this one: buffing the monk's FoB at 10th level would've been a much better way of protecting it's niche than nerfing the multiclass feat, even though both accomplish the same goal.
Still happy something happened, just disappointed it wasn't the more fun option.
I feel like this nerf is way too heavy handed.
Flurry of Blows isn't particularly strong, and is a small portion of the Monk's identity, so I don't think "protecting its niche" is something that needed to be done when things like Champion archetype reactions are largely untouched.
But even more, I just don't see why anybody would bother wasting a level 10 class feat on this version of Flurry.
Most of the arguments that I've seen on this forum have claimed the opposite.
One action for 2 attacks is strong in this game and on a fighter it further
The monk is only class with Flurry of Blows. It's a well known monk ability across 3E and PF1 and now PF2.
Sure, it sucks. I always prefer buffs.
I have it on my untamed form druid and it's quite nice, too nice. I imagine on that crazy alchemist build [b]Super Bidi[/i] uses FoB would be too nice. And on any unarmed build. It was built for monks and should be used best by them.
It is definitely a major identity the monk. A key class feature that defines the monk.
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The reason to address Flurry of Blows in the monk archetype was that it basically allowed other classes to be better at the monk at the monk's basic fighting style, which felt bad.
But at the same time some other builds with FoB from the Monk Archetype were fun, and I'm sad about losing them.
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But you still get at least one round with flurry per combat.
The round you need to do some class gimik for one action and move in for another> use it with that last action.
I doubt it wont be in any builds anymore, it just wont be in every build anymore.
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I’m really glad the multiclass Flurry of Blows has a cooldown penalty now so not everyone will/can poach a major Monk selling point and feature, but why doesn’t the multiclass Champion’s Reaction have one for the same reason? At least that’s what the previews have lead me to believe is how things stand in PC2.
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I understand the Champion's reaction as it has a progression. You can't poach the progression. You can buy the first level. Sneak Attack and the swashbuckler attack are the same way. You can just buy the first level with a archetype.
So it fits in that mold.
Whereas flurry of blows is more of a limiter like the Magus archetype. Sure, you can get the Spellstrike or FoB, but you can't use it as often.
I’m really glad the multiclass Flurry of Blows has a cooldown penalty now so not everyone will/can poach a major Monk selling point and feature, but why doesn’t the multiclass Champion’s Reaction have one for the same reason? At least that’s what the previews have lead me to believe is how things stand in PC2.
My personal guess is that it's due to how Paizo views the difference between actions and reactions. Likely they think a reaction isn't worth putting the same cooldown.
Mind you, I agree it should have a 1d4 cooldown too. But I'd like to see dedication spellstrike get the same treatment too, so... /shrug
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I'm in the point that the current nerf was too much.
I will not enter into the point about "but spellstrike/sneak attack/rage are weaker in archetypes" because IMO is like comparing apples to oranges, their levels are different and their utilities are different.
About the old FoB feat mischaracterizes the monk I disagree too. Monks are very defensive focused most archetype alternatives like fighter/rogue/barbarian with monk archetype are more offensively they don't really compete at all. They are more like alternatives what's the main point to have an archetype in general.
I believe that this nerf in general was bad because in this cooldown situations much of the alternative archetype monks will cease to exist. Probably those who plays with it will change to Martial Artist once that you lose the main point to make a monk archetype put into a point similar to what happens to spellstrike. It's there but no one have interest into get it due the cost-benefit.
IMO it would much better if they buffed the monk's FoB during the monk class progression instead and keep the archetype FoB unchanged.
Is there a kind soul here that can confirm for me if the Barbarian's Spirit's Wrath feat has received any changes?
My Spirit Barbarian has already retired, so it is not like I care much now personally, but despite how much I like the feat it always struck me as weird the way it was originally written and I am a bit curious to know if it has gone through revision.
Two changes:
1) The wisp does Spirit damage now.
2) The wisp does double damage on a Critical, on top of the Frightened 1 effect.
Does it still use the weird scaling it had before? That's weird.
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Is there somewhere where the text of rascal (or any swashbuckler style for that matter) is seen in some of these videos? I want to see how bravado is exactly worded in each style so I can do an errata pass on my own swashbuckler styles lol.
From the Wit Swashbuckler, the exact text is: When you use Bon Mot, the action gains the bravado trait.
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I for one would very much enjoy some extra info on sorcerers and investigators
We've compiled a decent list of the Investigator changes here on Reddit.