ottdmk's page

I've become a big fan of Shield Block. My Warpriest in Extinction Curse (retired) really used it a lot. Between Shield Block and Replenishment of War he soaked a lot of damage for the party.

My 10th level Mutagenist (still active in PFS) also uses Shield Block a lot. It's been great, and the Shield itself is a lot of fun. (He gained a Martyr's Shield on one adventure, RP'ing Myrsa is a blast.)

For even more wacky fun with Leap, munch on some Firefoot Popcorn for double the normal distance (plus some really strange hazardous terrain.)

One advantage of Diverse Weapon Expert is that, as it is a Fighter Archetype feat, it applies to Fighter Resiliency. It's not a lot, but it's something.

As consumables, bombs can’t have runes etched onto them, have talismans attached to them, or benefit from runes granted in other ways (such as from spells or from items that replicate runes from other items).

For anyone who was wondering.

This has been an interesting discussion. Talk about an edge case.

I played through Extinction Curse as a Warpriest. My main flanking buddy was the party's Animal Instinct Barbarian/Wrestler. Twenty levels, and in my experience I wasn't healing G'abba an excessive amount. Yeah, he had the rage penalty, but it didn't seem to translate to an excessive amount of hits & crits. Plus, he was so bloody tough...

I've been having a lot of fun with Martial Artist on my Melee Mutagenist. Follow-up Strike is great, plus, I have all three physical damage types to get full advantage of my +1 Striking Astral Handwraps.

A little harsh, but if your GM gave you access to Peshpine Grenades...

The Light cantrip stats it can not be willing dismissed.

The Light cantrip specifically states "You can Dismiss the spell." Where are you seeing otherwise?

Well, I think we can be pretty confident that the Toxicologist will return in PC2. There hasn't been a lot "taken away" in the Remaster so far... they didn't give the Ranger their Snare options, but we're told that's because they're focusing that on the Snare Crafter archetype which will be in PC2.

About the only other thing I can think of is the Eldritch Trickster Rogue Racket, and in that case there was almost universal agreement that it never worked.

I want to like the Bottled Monstrosities, but they left the crafting requirements too vague for my tastes. I honestly can't tell if your could Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy a Bottled Monstrosity. Which is really annoying.

Things like Quick Bomber or a Rogue's Poison Weapon feat make their respective items vastly more effective, so I'm not really sure why pointing that out should be off the table.

One thing I'm really hoping for in PC2: that Toxicologists get the equivalent of the Rogue's Poison Weapon. I'm not a fan of Poisons, or of Toxicologists really, but it's always seemed a bit unjust that Paizo has Rogues better at applying Poisons in combat than Toxicologists.

And also, to rant for a moment: Why does Poison Weapon let you put a Contact Poison on your weapon? Why?!?!?!?

I've only recently started GM'ing regularly. I have a regular group going through the Abomination Vaults every 2nd Wednesday. I also GM PFS Scenarios where I can.

PFS is built around the likelihood of different leveled characters involved in the Scenario, and I find it accommodates that reality quite well.

For my AP campaign, I've made the conscious decision that all players will be at the same level. If a player misses a session, he still gets the XP the group earned. I do it this way to make things easier for myself, and I make no apologies. I've made it difficult enough for myself by allowing the group to grow to six players.

I wonder if giving a Toxicologist a Misfortune effect in one of their Field Discoveries would work? Have it so that if the vector works (target is injured, drinks the poisoned wine, breathes the cloud, etc.) the target has to roll twice and take the worse roll.

Too much?

So, this is a pretty deep dive. For the record, I consider Mega Bomb to be a poorly written feat. There's too much ambiguity for my tastes.

The first thing is that Mega Bomb is an Additive feat. Additives are added to Bombs or Elixirs. So a Mega Bomb is still a Bomb. Which is important. Now, if you look at the Splash trait:

When you use a thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don’t add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s weaknesses or resistances. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.

Bomb damage is split into two parts, initial damage and splash damage, which are added together before Weaknesses or Resistances are applied.

So then,

The bomb deals damage as if each creature were the primary target, with a basic Reflex save. On a failed save, a creature also takes any extra effects that affect a primary target (such as flat-footed from bottled lightning).

The save applies to the initial damage, and the extra effects, such as conditions.

What about the splash though? Well it's the next sentence that specifically calls out the splash:

While all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets, there is no further splash beyond that area.

There isn't anything that says the saving throw applies to the splash.

So, as I said, there's an argument to be made that targets will always take at least the 7-10 pts (assuming Int +6 at L20, and taking into account the Tier of the Bomb) of splash.

One reason I tend towards this interpretation is that otherwise, Mega Bomb isn't much of a feat. I'm really hoping it gets rewritten to either a) clarify it, b) buff it, or c) both.

Where Mega Bomb is interesting is there is a reasonable argument that the Basic Reflex Save doesn't affect the Splash Damage at all. Meaning a Mega Bomb would always do a minimum 7-10 damage, based on the tier of Bomb.

I've always said that if you're in a zombie apocalypse, you want a 20th level Mega Bomb Alchemist on your side. Could easily make 60+ Major Ghost Charges and when those run out, start in on the infinite Greater Ghost Charges... (depending on choices made for Perpetual Infusions, naturally.) ::GRIN::

Sounds like you've locked in your Class and other aspects. So the easiest way to gain a Bite attack, namely, be an Alchemist and use Bestial Mutagens, is probably out.

If you want pre-buffing, go with Alchemical Items. I mean, even if you ignore the Mutagens, Eagle-Eye Elixir, Bravo's Brew and (at later levels) Cheetah's Elixir are all solid 1-hour long buffs.

Personally, I'm getting a lot of mileage (in some cases, literally) out of being on Greater Quicksilver Mutagen for 7 out of the usual 8 hours in an adventuring day. (I save a Quicksilver in case I get ambushed overnight.)

The Dex Cap of armor only affects how much of your Dex Modifier you apply to AC. It has no limiting effect on your Reflex Saves.

Oh man, I'd forgotten Come and Get Me. Such a fun Feat, although you have to be pretty reckless to use it.

I have to admit, I've had a hard time putting this post together. I haven't felt so condescended to in quite a long time.

The thing that's missing from this conversation is simply this: the reason my build is a Mutagenist is that I wanted to play a Mutagenist.

I built a Bomber as my first PFS character. The first PF2e character I played from Level 1. And I really enjoyed it. I liked the chassis, I liked learning all the different items, I really liked watching things melt away when I hit them with an Acid Flask.

I thought there was more that could be done with Alchemist though. So I started looking at making a Mutagenist.

First step was deciding how the new guy would fight. I wanted to go different from my Bomber, so I figured, Bestial Mutagen, why not? Made my plans, including how to get around the Drawback as best I can (General Training, Shield Block). Then I went reading through the Feats.

Feral Mutagen looked really fun. Deadly d10? Sweet! Dice size bump if you're willing to risk your neck? Sure, why not? And then there was the fact that it would allow you to add Bestial's Item Bonus to Intimidate as well as Athletics.

So I started wondering: Could you build an Alchemist that could be great at both those skills, while still being an Alchemist? Turns out you could.

Couldn't work without being a Mutagenist though. OF the four Research Fields, Mutagenists can get by with the least Reagents. And I needed that, because to get really good with Strength and Charisma, I was going to have to leave Intelligence behind for a while.

Mutagenists don't use Class DC unless they're regularly using Poisons or certain Bombs, which I wasn't going to be doing. No Alchemist actually requires Crafting, although most get quite good with it. (Heck, my Mutagenist will be going for Crafting Master at 13th.) So the only real impact was in number of Batches of Infused Reagents per day.

Alchemical Familiar helps there, and if you're not a Bomber, odds are you take Alchemical Familiar at 1st level. So I started out with three Batches a day, and generally speaking I was able to save a Batch for Quick Alchemy surprises right out of the gate. And this was while being behind my Bomber by two Batches a day.

Oh, and I take offense at any suggestion that Alchemy is taking a back seat. Alchemy is used for almost everything my guy does, from the Lesser Silvertongue he chugs before any social encounter (Perpetual Infusions) to the Moderate Cognitive that he uses to keep his Martyr's Shield patched up. Plus Numbing Tonics, which imho are worth their weight in gp because the temp HP replenishes every round. (Actually, they're worth more than their weight in gp, as Moderate Numbing costs 150gp a dose.) And that's the tip of the iceberg, because Mutagenist is the best Research Field at using the entire Alchemist toolkit... and I've had a lot of fun using all the tools at my disposal.

I set out to make an Alchemist that was different from my first one, but make no mistake, he's very much still an Alchemist.

As for why I never looked at doing something with the Dedication? The Dedication is so limited it would drive me nuts. Advanced Alchemy Level 1 for four levels, 2-5? Level 3 for another four? Level 5 for 2 levels? Finally getting a decent progression at Level 12, but it's permanently five levels behind? Not to mention being permanently stuck with creating only two Items per batch, and they always have to be the same two? No thanks. I want all the toys at the earliest opportunity.

Simple... then I wouldn't be playing an Alchemist. My Mutagenist is 9th level now, with 11 Batches of Infused Reagents a day. An Alchemical Sciences Investigator doesn't even get half that number of Quick Vials... and they only get one Elixir or Tool per vial. Not the playstyle I'm looking for.

My guy makes minimum three Bestials a day, although I'm thinking of changing it to four. Couple of Darkvision Elixirs. Four Mistforms and four Numbing Tonics to supplement his fighting style. The other five Batches I freeform with every gaming day. Usually keep one or two for Quick Alchemy.

Alchemial Sciences guys can't make all the stuff I like using.

the athletics bonus is good, i don't deny that, but 99% of the times in all the games i've played or seen played a mutagenist, the intimidation bonus is worthless due to a severe lack of both Cha and Skill increases available (after all, two of your 3 skill increases, crafting and athletics, are already spoken for)

Depends on your build. My Mutagenist (9th level) is Str +4/Cha +4/Int +1. With Alchemical Familiar, he's down two Batches of Reagents compared to a max Int Alchemist, but for a Mutagenist, that's not a big deal. I don't plan to rush Cha to +5 at 15th, so I'm going to start boosting Int at 10th. Int +4 is plenty for a Mutagenist to finish off with.

He's also Master in both Athletics and Intimidation. Crafting can wait for 11th/13th.

So he's very solid with both. In hindsight, I wish I'd bumped Athletics to Master first, then Intimidation. I did it so that I could buy Battle Cry at 8th. I find I'm not using Battle Cry much though. I find it's tricky... really sucks to Demoralize something and then it goes next in the Initiative order. Ah well. Should I make it to Legendary the free action after a critical hit might be fun.

Bestial is like a lot of other Mutagens... you need to build for it. If you do, it does a lot for you.

Look, I'm not trying to say that Bestial provides better Unarmed Attacks than Stances do, but I do think that it's fairly competitive and I would appreciate it if we could at least make accurate comparisons.

With a Monk Stance (Stumbling, Tiger, Wolf) you can have a d8 Agile attack from Level 1. Awesome. Or, you could go with something like Dragon Stance to get a d10 non-Agile. Again, awesome. However, you can't have both. Well, you can, but only one type of Stance attack per turn, and that requires a L16 Class Feat. Unless I've missed something. In which case, please let me know.

With Bestial you can have both, either at 8th level with a Feat Investment and a good lack of common sense, or at 11th level without either. I've found that there are advantages in having the choice of attacks. YMMV.

And you also have to take into consideration that both Bestial Mutagen and Feral Mutagen are about more than just damage. Bestial works very well with an Athletics build. I've appreciated having +2 to Athletics since 3rd level, especially as the Lifting Belt (+1) isn't available until 4th. I've also appreciated not having to buy the Belt or Armbands of Athleticism.

Feral Mutagen grants that same Item Bonus to Intimidation checks, and that's also been a lot of fun. Again, I appreciate not having to buy a Demon Mask or a Mask of the Bansee. Maybe I should've bought a Demon Mask... the bonus would've been nice for Levels 4-7. But I never got around to it.

And the final thing to remember about Feral (although this is going back to Damage)... you don't have to bump the AC penalty and the die sizes. You can choose to do so or not every time you take Bestial. So if it's a solo Boss fight, you can play it safe if you want to and still have two Deadly d10 Unarmed Strikes. If it's a bunch of mooks, you can throw caution to the winds and go for a little bit of extra damage. The choice is yours, every time.

One thing I was surprised about: that Deadly Strikes is a capstone Monk Feat. I would've expected it to come in a little earlier.

I'm not sure I follow you. I eliminated 13 of 17 stances because they don't offer what you said "stances usually have" : an Agile d8 attack.

I can put it another way: of the 10 Stances available to a 1st level Monk, 3 of them offer a d8 Agile. I still don't think that 3/10 of the available options qualifies for a "stances usually have" general statement.

That is still just worse than the standard d8 agile strikes stances usually have.

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

There are currently 17 Monk Stances. Of those 17, 4 offer a d8 Agile attack, so, a smidge under 25%. Of those 4, one, Tangled Forest Stance, only becomes available at Level 8... the same level as Feral Mutagen can grant a d8 Agile attack. So, I don't really count that.

So, 3 of 17 Stances with Agile d8. Stumbling Stance has the disadvantage of disallowing all Strikes other than Stumbling Swings... and personally, I prefer the ability to choose different attacks when I need to.

Leaving Tiger Stance and Wolf Stance.

So, you're correct: there are d8 Monk Stance Agile Strikes out there, and I fully agree, a d8 Agile is better than a non-Agile d8. However, saying that "stances usually have" a d8 Agile is a misrepresentation of the Monk Class.

The main issue with bestial is that its weapons kind of suck until you have feral or greater, which are both decently late options for getting an unarmed strike die equal what monks get at level 1.

I don't know about that, personally. Lesser Bestial gives a d6 Bite with Agile d4 Claws and yeah, that's definitely worse than Monk Unarmed.

Moderate though comes in at 3rd and gives a d8 Bite with d6 Agile Claws. That's basically equal to most Monk Stances. The only one I can find that beats it is Dragon Stance, with the d10 Dragon Tail attack and no restrictions on other Strikes (meaning you can use a d6 generic Agile punch along with it.)

Once you get Feral, that adds in Deadly d10, which only Cobra Fang gives you on the Monk side. I'm not a huge fan of Cobra Stance; poison damage can be tricky. And if you like living dangerously (I do, I'll admit) you can go d10 Bite/d8 Agile Claws with Feral which will match Dragon Stance on the high end and surpass it on the low.

Where Monks definitely have the advantage is they get Weapon Specialization at 7th. That counts for a lot.

I decided to go Martial Artist Dedication on my Mutagenist (love Follow-Up Strike) so he has all three damage types: d10 Piercing Bite, d8 Slashing Claws and d6 Bludgeoning <insert body part here>.

It's true that Alchemists are poorly positioned to use most combat Mutagens. Generally speaking, most will pick one of Bestial Mutagen, Fury Cocktails, or Quicksilver Mutagen. Maybe War Blood Mutagen if it's available to you.

It does make other choices less palatable. I played with a 3rd level Mutagenist in a PFS Scenario last night. They used Drakeheart as their Mutagen. So, excellent defense, but offense does suffer a bit.

Mutagenists get a lot more flexible at 13th. There are a number of interesting combinations. Fury Cocktail+ Energy for offense. Bestial + Drakeheart for defense. Quicksilver+ Sanguine. Etc. etc. etc.

Choker-Arm is an odd one. The only build I've come across that it works with is a Chirurgeon focused purely on support. I shudder to think what it would be like on a reach weapon fighter willing to suffer the Drawback though. Reactive Strike all over the battlefield, basically.

An Alchemist wanting to go Reach is better off gambling with their personal safety and going Titanic Fury Cocktail IMHO. I play my Mutagenist with the weapon die bump from Feral Mutagen; the -2 AC is survivable with a shield. The -3 Reflex Saves from Titanic are daunting though.

Getting the additional +1 edge on ONE thing in exchange for a penalty that is between 2-5x as impactful as the benefit is not a great deal just because it puts you very slightly ahead of the curve you can attain with non-consumable items.

The thing is, Mutagens, all of them, always benefit more than one thing. And the degree that they put you ahead of the curve varies by Mutagen.

I mean, my favourite Mutagen, Quicksilver, benefits three Skills, Reflex Saves, Speed, and Dex-based Strikes. I haven't done a comparison chart or anything, but I think it has the most benefits of any Mutagen, or at least the most variety.

Bestial grants scaling Unarmed attacks, gives its Item Bonus to all Unarmed attacks, plus it benefits Athletics. Major Bestial will also grant Weapon Specialization with the Unarmed Attacks, or Greater Weapon Specialization if you already have Weapon Specialization with Unarmed Attacks (in other words, any character L13+. Unless you're giving NPCs Greater Bestial, folks will get Greater Weapon Specialization with it.)

Juggernaut grants a decent chunk of Temp HP, plus it benefits Fortitude Saves. From Moderate onwards, the temp HP will regenerate if you're fully healed for 1 minute. Greater Juggernaut will bump any Fort Save from a success to a Crit Success, while Major also bumps any Crit Fail to a Fail.

Cognitive grants its Item Bonus to all Int-based Skills, any Recall Knowledge checks (regardless of Skill), and you cannot Critically Fail a Recall Knowledge check while using Cognitive. Greater Cognitive grants training in any Int-based Skill, which means you can use it to become trained in any Lore you want, with a +3 Item Bonus to the Recall Knowledge check and you can't crit fail. Major Cognitive can grant training in any skill, but given the Drawback affects all the physical ones I doubt anyone will use it for Athletics or Acrobatics, etc.

Silvertongue grants its bonus to all Cha based Skill Checks, and you can't crit fail any of them. Silvertongue might be the most limited Mutagen from the Core.

Serene Mutagen aids any Wis based Skill Check, plus it aids Will Saves, and will bump saves vs Mental effects with the Greater and Major versions.

As for the scaling, well, it depends on what's being helped. Skill Bonuses and Strikes are, generally speaking, +1 ahead of equivalent items. Saves are generally +2 ahead for 11 levels, and +1 for 9. Serene is kinda insane, as against Mental Effects it's +3 for 8 levels, +2 for 11, and finally +1 ahead at 20th.

The rest of the stuff isn't as easy to judge. Quicksilver's speed boost matches Longstrider/Tailwind at 3rd, then moves ahead at 11th and again at 17th. Juggernaut's temp hp? Not sure what else gives temp hp. Silvertongue and Cognitive's "you can't crit fail"? No clue. Saving throw bumps are generally Class Features that can't be grabbed outside of the base chassis.

So all of this stuff has to be considered when balancing things. Truth be told, I'm glad that's not my job.

There's no need to get hyperbolic and put words into someone's mouth.

If the enemy mostly ignores you absolutely. If it as much as looks at you a bit too harshly you are going to die.

Given the hyperbole in the original statement, I am simply responding in kind.

Bombs have a 20 ft range increment. That's essentially always one Stride away from being in melee range. And its shorter than most spells.

Bombs have a 20' Range Increment if you let them. There's a reason why I prioritize Far Lobber over Quick Bomber, always. More range is good. 30' is a good place to be. 60' (Uncanny Bombs, L12) is even better.

Casters get to be crazy flexible in ways that Alchemists are not. Alchemists don't get to slot in Reaction spells or other defensive options to adapt their survival odds to the campaign.

While you are correct in the lack of Reactions (an area the Class is absolutely lacking in), Alchemists still have a decent amount of flexibility when it comes to defenses. If you're going dragon hunting, for example, I strongly recommend Bravo's Brews. Being +2 ahead of the curve on Fear (for many levels) is a good strategy.

If an Alchemist is using items on allies, that's melee range, and if you're bombing, that's still one Stride from getting grabbed and invoking that -2 Fort.

Firstly, using your items on allies who are in melee is not a use case for Quicksilver. If you're planning on rushing over to folks and feeding them Elixirs, pick another strategy. First off, don't go Bomber... you're just going to frustrate yourself. Go Mutagenist or Chirurgeon and use Fury Cocktail for some damage resistance and Cheetah's Elixirs for some speed. Or, if you don't care about combat effectiveness at all, go Choker-Arm Mutagen. Doesn't impact your defenses and you can deliver stuff from 10-20' away depending on tier.

And to reiterate, you don't have to be stuck with a 20' Bomb range if you don't want to. Plus, if you need more Range, eat the -2 penalty and keep yourself safer. At least it doesn't take an Action like Reach Spell does.

Considering that mutagens cost actions and resources, the downsides are frankly ridiculously out of proportion. Taking penalties to get +1 to hit on a class that already lags behind in accuracy is seriously no bueno.

I find it interesting that even other people who play Alchemists routinely disregard the other five benefits of Quicksilver and focus entirely on the Item Bonus to Dex based Strikes & the Drawbacks.

There is a lot there to take advantage of, should you take the trouble to do so. I use every benefit with the exception of Thievery on my L11 guy. My L7 Bomber has made good use of all of them.

Quicksilver is basically a painful tax for Alchs to get closer to Strike par, it's not a real bonus. IMO, if the mutagen did not exist, there's a real chance Alchemist would have already had its accuracy improved in an errata.

shrug Maybe. I have no idea. But "if the mutagen did not exist" is the realm of pure speculation. The mutagens (all of them) exist. I will put 2,000 quatloos that when Player Core 2 comes out they'll all be in there, and be largely unchanged. Paizo has put a large premium on compatibility between pre-Remaster and Remaster. I sincerely doubt that will change with Alchemists and Alchemy. Besides, Treasure Vault is still out there, and I doubt they're going to have the page count to rework all of those items.

I personally am shifting toward a Numb Medic tank/debuffer playstyle. Every Strike I eat is one less that the Rogue has to worry about, and I don't need to spend actions moving around the field if I'm healing myself. I still try to send out a Strike of my own each round, but I don't often get to be optimal.

Cool, glad to hear you're finding something that works for you. Between Numbing Tonic, Soothing Tonic & Mistform Elixirs an Alchemist can be ridiculously hard to put down. I've been having fun with that on my L9 Mutagenist.

I'm playing a Warpriest in this campaign.

Hmnnn. It's not great on Warpriest, but it's not the worst fit either. Warpriest does get 5th Doctrine after all... but it comes in 4 levels later than the Alchemist gets Juggernaut. You have the 8 HP per Level chassis, so that's good.

I have to wonder though... what are you planning to do with the Quicksilver? I played a Warpriest through 20th level in Extinction Curse, and IMHO there isn't a lot in the Class that encourages a Dex based combat style. There definitely isn't anything in there to encourage a Ranged Striker style, and going Melee while using Quicksilver isn't the best idea for most Classes. A Dex based fighter could pull it off, particularly if they used a shield. (My Mutagenist does quite well in Melee with a shield, and Quicksilver doesn't have the AC penalty that Bestial Mutagen does.)

Final question is how you plan to get access. If your party has an Alchemist who has reagents to spare (not uncommon at L11+) then no further questions needed. Otherwise, well, Greater Quicksilver runs 300gp a piece.

If the enemy mostly ignores you absolutely. If it as much as looks at you a bit too harshly you are going to die.

Kinda of funny that the warblood mutagen has basically no drawback for a similar bonus

You're kidding me, right? I have the same Fort Saves as 11.5 other classes, and I have the Fort Save degree bump from Juggernaut. Are they dead if they're looked at funny? Gee, that cuts out a lot of classes from play. Too bad, guess nobody's going to have fun with those.

I take it you have a really, really low opinion of Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards? I take it they're dead if they're looked at funny? Odd, I play a L15 Wizard... he hasn't died yet, despite his fair share of Severe+ Encounters. I wonder how that is? Obviously, he should be dead by now.

Wand of Longstrider isn't too bad, although finding room to buy Trick Magic Item in my build isn't happening. Doesn't change the fact that I'm currently 5' faster on Quicksilver, and will be 10' faster with Major.

Bless? Do you think I want to be spending 3 actions at the start of a combat to cast Bless? I'd much rather take advantage of the higher Item Bonus and leave stuff like Bless to Spellcasters that do it better.

And you haven't addressed the Skills. While my guy is only Trained in Acrobatics, the bonus has still come in handy on several occasions. Stealth... He's a Stealth Master. Stealth has been great, and nothing helps Stealth as much as Quicksilver.

A big thing is this: since hitting 11th, I can have all the benefits of Quicksilver all day if I want (and I usually do.) It's at the point where it's a 0 action buff, because I simply drink one an hour. It's really easy to justify to the GM.

So I have 6 HP/level: shrug. I have Expert Fortitude saves like 11.5 other Classes (but I still have the save degree bump.) And I have a lot of great benefits that are basically always there. I really like Greater Quicksilver.

It strongly depends on your chassis. So, I have one character with access to Greater Quicksilver right now, my L11 Bomber.

Let's look at the Drawbacks: with Quicksilver, there are two.

The first is that you take 2*Your Level in damage every time you take a dose. This isn't really as bad as it appears on first glance... for a Bomber.

A Bomber is a Ranged Striker. Being turned into a 6 HP/Level Class by Quicksilver is fairly minor. Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards all survive being a 6 HP/Level class because they're Ranged. So can you.

Then there is the -2 to Fortitude Saves. Again, for my L11 Bomber... not a big deal. His Fortitude Saves go from Master to Expert. While annoying, there are a lot of classes that only get Expert in Fortitude Saves... 11.5 to be exact. And somehow, they survive. They do this without the benefit of the Juggernaut level of success bump, which my Bomber has. (Well, the Remastered Rogue has the level of success bump now for some reason with Expert Saves. Weird.)

In exchange, he is +2 ahead of Resiliency Runes until he hits 14th for Reflex Saves. He's +1 ahead on Acrobatics and Stealth (the bonus applies to Thievery, but he isn't trained in Thievery.) He has a +15' Status Bonus to Speed, which on a Fleet Halfling is sweet. (Love having a 45' Movement rate.)

And oh yeah, having a +3 Item Bonus to Strikes with my beloved Perpetual Sticky Bombs instead of +0/+1 or +2 (which I'd get only if I shelled out for Greater Alchemist's Goggles.)

So, if you are a Ranged Striker with at least 8 HP/level normally and Master in Fortitude Saves, I can heartily recommend Greater Quicksilver. If your chassis doesn't meet those conditions, you may wish to apply caution.

That's a decent spread. Only problem I see is that you're going to be stuck with a partial increase (aka an odd numbered stat) at L20.

I played a Warpriest from L1-L20 in Extinction Curse, pre-Remaster. He was a great character: extremely effective and so, so much fun to play.

The Remaster Warpriest is even better. I would've loved Raise Symbol on my build (I used an Emblazoned sturdy shield.) And getting Master with Rapier at 19th would've been a very satisfying capstone (I would've loved Master strikes in the final boss fight.)

The only thing missing that I would've really liked is Master proficiency in armor.

Well, I would argue that Alchemists are largely "fine as is" any day, but item dispenser has never been my playstyle, other than one memorable final battle in one Scenario.

That battle was going to be triggered when the folks we were helping performed a Ritual. We knew where it would take place, and we got to dictate when it would take place, and we knew it was the final encounter. Let me tell you, that set of circumstances is rare.

My Mutagenist went all-in on Advanced Alchemy that day, and everyone was on something for that fight, even if it was just a Mistform Elixir. It was fun, as a one-off.

As far as the Remaster goes: I think there's definitely space to rejig the Feats a bit. I'd love to see Alchemical Savant be a Class Feature for example. I'd love to have that on my Alchemists, but while I'm not exactly a min/maxer, I can't see myself ever taking it over Alchemical Familiar or one of the Bomb Feats.

I know a lot of people consider the Bomb Feats taxes, and I can see that perspective, but I don't know how you could do things otherwise. My Mutagenist doesn't use Bombs. I don't want Class Features based around Bombs, because that's essentially telling me that I should always be using Bombs... and that's not my character.

I know there is a School of Thought that the Research Field should do more, but I don't think that matches my expectations. I mean, a Ranger's choice of Edge doesn't make them better with any particular weapon, right? You choose Feats for that.

I hope they redo the Mutagen Feats a bit. Elastic Mutagen is interesting, but I can't see there being many people who take it. Invincible Mutagen is good (you can have a +5 Int when it comes in) but Juggernaut's Drawback is the hardest one on an Alchemist and since Mutagenists don't get past the one Mutagen limit until 13th that's irritating. Plus, Invincible competes with Extend Elixir which is one of the best Alchemist Feats in the game.

Gilb and Genius are Feats that largely influence out of combat, and those are always a tough sell.

Anyways, I'm rambling again.

I've never understood the "you must be handing out your items" crowd.

I have no objections to handing out a few things. It can be very effective, depending on your team. I have fond memories of how much a +2 Dex Sorcerer enjoyed Drakeheart one game. But there are limits. There are only so many Batches in a day, you know?

I mean, if you want to play Toxicologist and poison every piercing/slashing weapon before every fight, go for it! If that works for you, fantastic. If 4 weapon strikes are poisoned, two of them should get to Stage 1. Awesome!

However, if you're playing a Bomber in the lower levels, well, go ahead and load up on Bombs and Quicksilver. You're going to do respectable damage and have fun in the process. Helping out other folks can come later.

Best Research Field for playing with the toolkit, including helping out folks, is Mutagenist in my opinion. Only need 1 Batch/three doses of your Combat Mutatagen to get through the day, really (Mutagenic Flashback can be Encounter #4) and that leaves a lot of room to experiment. A 1st level Mutagenist can easily have 6 Batches of Infused Reagents a day, and only have the use of 1 set in stone (Int +4 & Alchemical Familiar.)

I gotta ask: have you ever played an Alchemist? Because I gotta say, your view of the class is distorted beyond belief.

It's possible that there will be problems once my lead guy hits 13th. Maybe. I find I doubt it.

But from Level 1? I've played three Alchemists so far. While levels 1 & 2 are kinda painful for Bombers, L3+ is fine. Mutagenists are great from L1 because they don't have the same resource problems.

Your experience with dragon form basically matches that of the sorcerer in the long-term homebrew campaign I'm in (we're all 15th level now.) Man, does he love using dragon form when space permits. So much fun.

All right! Updated the poisons to match GM Core (meaning all GM Core alchemical items are now in place.) Also cleaned up the Goo Grenade entry (it made a lot of references to Tanglefoot Bags instead of Glue Bombs) and incorporated Trip.H's errata & feedback. Link in the first post as always.

First of all, I'm glad you think the Guide is a good resource. That's the goal, so thanks! Also, thanks for pointing out the 10 minutes mistake; I probably had the number 10 on the brain due to the default area.

Poisons are probably my weakest area. I'm not a fan, basically. I will definitely keep your suggestions in mind; I need to go back into the Poisons sections anyway to update them to GM Core.

After that, Alchemical Foods! I'm looking forward to that section; the foods are fun, IMHO.

Bumping this because I finally finished the tools section, and felt like uploading the new version to Drive. Link in the first post.

I have not updated the poisons to GM Core yet. I think that'll be next before I start on Alchemical Foods.

Feels like a missed opportunity to include the new remastered books. A lot more people would jump on it. Giving away the "old" one when you just released the new one just feels odd. Hopefully they'll be a bundle soon with all remastered books?

That would be cannibalizing their Remaster sales, and would likely tick off their retail partners in the process. I can't seen an upside there.

That's true... for an unamped Imaginary Weapon.

If it's amped, then you're looking at +2d8 scaling per spell rank. That makes a rather large difference.

I'm really not seeing the problem here. +4 Str/+3 Cha/+1 Con/+1 Wis you'll end up with +5 Str/+4 Cha/+3 Con/+3 Wis by Level 10. That's pretty solid. +5 Str/+5 Cha/+4 Con/+4 Wis by L15... I'd be happy with that spread.

How does that help when you're now failing saves, down on HP, and could have simply taken Intimidating Prowess to negate the need for maximized Charisma?

It's not really as bad as all that. The general consensus around here has long been that Fighters don't need to bump Dexterity... they can simply get +3 against damaging Reflex effects with Bulwark and that's good enough.

So, you bump Str, Con, Wis & Charisma every chance you get and you have some fun with those build possibilities and you call it a day.

Warpriest save progression didn't change in the Remaster. Starts with Expert in Will & Fortitude (the latter from 1st Doctrine); gets Resolve @ 9th (Master Will + Save to Critical upgrade) & 5th Doctrine (aka Juggernaut, Master Fort & Save to Critical upgrade) @ 15th.

It's not a spurious argument, and I'm fine to "double down" with it.

So, let's recap, shall we?

For me, the main issue is tht the class can be replaced by spending gold.

Hard agree. Alchs need something to make using the item better in their hands, like some action economy helper, and they need some reason to use Quick/Advanced Alch, via a reworked Additive system.

So, you agreed that the class can be replaced by spending gold. And you then proceeded to claim that due to the cost difference between L3 items and where you get to before L11, you can easily just buy Bombs and Mutagens.

Which you can.

You can buy some. You can definitely buy enough to supplement what you do normally. But you cannot buy enough to use them day in and day out as your main schtick. That can't be done.

Plus, now you're not even talking about that. You're talking about supplementing your Alchemist by using Craft. Which is a completely different matter altogether. That isn't replacing an Alchemist using gold... it's adding capability using gold. Yet you seem to believe that it makes the argument that the Class can be replaced using gold.

Make up your mind what you're discussing.

I absolutely stand by the argument that as a quirk of bombs and mutagens jumping from L3 --> L11, for a long time Alchemists can and should be supplementing those stocks with hard versions, bought or self-made, and using their Reagents for the higher level stuff that unlocks as they go.

Here I can agree with you. You absolutely should supplement your Alchemists using Craft. I'm fond of Crafting items that I want on hand but don't want to spend Reagents on every day. Cat's Eye Elixers, Antidote, Antiplague, Revealing Mists, Mistform Elixers, that sort of thing.

However, that is a long way from "the class can be replaced by spending gold." Which is the argument you originally agreed with.

I disagree that this is economically non-viable. Especially after the formula change just handed the class a huge gold tax back to character.

I wouldn't count my chickens on that front. Spellcasters like Wizards and Witches are still paying gold to learn new Spells. Wouldn't surprise me if Paizo says that Alchemists still have to have the formulae to use Advanced & Quick Alchemy.

Due to how big the level gap is btwn the L3 and L11 bombs, yes, it is quite easy to afford. I can rush the finish w/ the variant rule, crit the crafting check, and get 2 * (L + 1) discount per day.

Oh, ok, your entire point is that you have unlimited Downtime to fulfill this notion of yours? To Craft a single Batch of anything takes a minimum of two days if you want to save cash.

So, 3rd level: My guy is creating 15 Moderate Bombs and 4 Moderate Quicksilvers. So, that's the equivalent of five Batches for the Craft Downtime activity. That's 10 days of Downtime. Now, you're not going to be Crit'ing the Craft roll with any regularity at that level. Best you've got is a +13 Modifier, with a DC of 18.

Plus, unless you've got a really generous GM, you're going to be starting off 3rd level with roughly 125 gp, if they give it to you all in cash.

Say everything goes exactly right. You get your Critical Successes, you don't fail the flat check for rushing the finish (which is still a thing at this level): if you take the minimum downtime of ten days to come up with what my Alchemist gets every morning... it's gonna cost you 192 gp. Which is considerably more than what you're starting with.

And that's for one day.

I suspect though, that you're thinking a little further down the line. Probably 8th level. Lots of stuff fall into place at 8th level for this notion. Impeccable Crafting turns Success into Critical Successes, and you're high enough level that with Assurance you can auto-succeed on anything up to 8th level... which I will admit, is pretty sweet.

So, what hasn't changed is your Downtime problem. By this point, my guy is making 3 Batches of Bombs, 2 Batches of Quicksilver, 1 Batch of Moderate Elixir of Life (L5, 30 gp each) and I have six more Batches of Infused Reagents to do whatever I want with.

Your person, however, doesn't have Perpetual Infusions with Sticky Bomb. So, you'd probably be better off sticking with four Batches of Bombs.

So, bare minimum: still ten days Downtime.Still going to cost you 168 gp per day. Average party will have earned 725gp each (cash value) over the course of L7, which will allow you to afford four days of supplies.

And that's letting you off easy. Getting you to keep up by making a Batch of Elixirs of life would add another two days of Downtime and 116 gp to the total... although, to be fair, that would last two days as my Batches only create two per.

So yeah, in conclusion: playing like an Alchemist using cash is a fantasy. Doesn't exist.

Spending a whole bunch of time going over the on-level gold cost does not do all that much to help the Alchemists struggling to stay relevant. Any spell caster can be compared to their scroll cost. But they have additional barriers to use that alch items lack, and combat actions.

Hey, you're the one who brought up a completely spurious argument. I don't mind having discussions of why Alchemists could use a little help. But if you think I'm going to sit back and watch someone make an argument of "they suck because this" when that's blatantly false, well, that's not me.

So, as I often do around these parts, I'm going to take a moment and present the other side of things.

I have played Alchemists for a total of 27 levels now, across two Research Fields. I have a Bomber and a Mutagenist active in PFS (Levels 11 and 9 respectively.) I have a second Bomber in Outlaws of Alkenstar that just finished Book Two and is now 7th level.

While I believe there are a number of things that could be tweaked to improve the Class, the last thing I would want would be the wholesale changes being proposed here.

A lot of my fun over the past two and a half years or so has been the ability to stretch outside of my guys' Research Field. Mind you, a lot of the time that's not easy, due to a lack of Resources. Still, even one or two Batches leftover from daily preparations can be a lifesaver. Usually it's been for an unexpected healing elixir or tool.

These days it's a lot easier. My lowest guy just hit 7th level. I will admit, one of the things I hope they tweak is Perpetual Infusions. Moving it to 3rd level would ease a lot of the stress.

But you know, 7th level, I've got infinite Bombs as a backup. So for one more level I'll be making about 18 Bombs a day, with 4 Quicksilvers, a couple of Moderate Elixirs of Life (we're a little light on in-combat healing), and now two free Batches. In my experience, that'll work quite well. Might even decide to go with 4 Elixirs of Life... I'll have to chat with my party on that point.

Eighth level, Sticky Bomb comes in, and with it even more flexibility. From experience I could probably cut back to 3 Batches/9 Moderate Bombs once I have Sticky. That's three more Batches for other things.

I expect that Alchemist accuracy will get boosted somehow. Fine by me. I've been doing quite well with the current limitations; I won't complain if they make it even better.

For me, the main issue is tht the class can be replaced by spending gold.

Hard agree. Alchs need something to make using the item better in their hands, like some action economy helper, and they need some reason to use Quick/Advanced Alch, via a reworked Additive system.

Ok. So, first off, the notion that you can replace an Alchemist by spending gold is completely spurious. Yes, you can purchase Alchemical Items on the open market. Yes, they will work the same as infused items made by an Alchemist... at least, they will until certain feats become available.

However, how are you going to afford all the items that the Alchemist takes for granted?

Let's take a look at my L11 Bomber: He makes 8 Greater Quicksilver Mutagens per day. Seven for use during the day, one in case he gets ambushed overnight (it happens sometimes.) That's 300 gp a pop. So, 2,400 gp a day on Mutagens alone.

Then there's the Bombs. In general, 250 gp per Bomb. So, 2,250 gp there (as I said, I usually make 9 Advanced Alchemy Bombs per day.) You know, you can pick up a +2 Striking Flaming Weapon for 1,500 gp, and I hear people complaining about that financial burden all the time.

Should the Spellcaster in the party want some Drakehearts? Another 1,200 gp per day (always plan for at least four encounters.) Numbing tonics for the frontliners? 150 gp a pop. Soothing Tonics? 185 gp. Chromatic Jellyfish Oil?

Are there players out there with access to Scrooge McDuck's legendary vault?

I will admit, I wish Extend Elixir came earlier in the Feat progression. And I wish that my Bombers had room to take it. (As is, my L11 Bomber won't be grabbing it until L16.)

However, my Mutagenist will absolutely be grabbing it at L12, and that will be nice indeed. Two hour buffs per Elixir, and 15 Batches of Reagents to play with per day (my Mutagenist is a Str/Cha/Int Build, so he's a little bit behind on Reagents.) Spend the whole day on Cheetah's Elixirs, Bravo's Brews & Eagle-Eye Elixirs, why not? Only cost six batches. Still got 9, and I only need 1 for Bestial. So eight for other things. Throw in one for a Greater Darkvision and a Spare and I still can make so much other stuff, and leave a couple leftover for Quick Alchemy.

Anyways, I'm rambling. I'll conclude with this: I hope that the Class I have had so much fun playing for the past two & a half years makes it out of this exercise relatively intact.

It appears that the Player Core and GM Core have contradictory interpretations of how Bombs work.

A bomb deals any listed splash damage to the target on a failure, success, or critical success, and to all other creatures within 5 feet of the target on a success or critical success. Add the damage together before applying resistance or weakness, and don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.

Splash only hitting the main target on a miss is a very definite change from Core Rulebook. On the other hand...

Most bombs also have the splash trait. When you use a thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don’t add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a critical failure, the bomb misses entirely, dealing no damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s resistance or weakness. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.

is basically the same as things were in the old Core Rulebook.

Note that the Player Core doesn't have the language about not adding the Strength modifier.

Definitely confusing. Some clarification would be welcome.

Part of it may be encounter design. I mean, a moderate encounter has a XP Budget of 80. So, a solo boss moderate encounter would be PL+2.

That's supposed to be a moderate-severe threat against a party of four. This is not something that you're going to have your lone Gunslinger face off with at High Noon... they're gonna get killed.

To simulate that sort of fight, at the very least you'd have to divide the XP budget by 4. So, 20 XP.

A 20 XP solo creature is PL-2.

I can see a Gunslinger doing quite well solo against a PL-2 critter.

So I don't think it's really a case of "this class is better against mooks." It's more a case of "solo bosses have to be fought by a whole party."