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PFS tends to use at-level DCs strictly for Skill Challenges. Which is understandable, as the whole point of a Skill Challenge is to be, well, Challenging. So you end up with things like overly difficult to climb Walls, because, well, see above. Skill checks outside of Skill Challenges should still be up to the GM though, and should definitely use stuff like Simple DCs.
Combined with Magical Shorthand, you auto-crit succeed and get spells at half price too, though not max rank ones. It even works with Max Rank spells... most of the time. It's just delayed a level. For example: I plan for my PFS Wizard (currently 1st level) to take Assurance: Arcana as his 4th level Skill Feat. At 4th level, he can cast 2nd Rank Spells. The DC to learn such a spell is usually 18. (Player Core pg 231.) Assurance will give you an 18 at this level (4 (level) + 4 (Expert) + 10) so you can auto-learn the Spell (for half price if you have Magical Shorthand, as you mention.) 5th level, you gain access to 3rd Rank Spells, but the DC is 20 and Assurance only gives you 19 (5 (level) + 4 (Expert) + 10) so it doesn't work... but it will at 6th level. This holds true for most of your career, with the following exceptions:
I rather like Assurance: Arcana for Wizards. You can generally auto-learn max Rank spells one level after they become available, starting at Level 3. The two exceptions are Rank 4 spells, which you can Assurance Learn right from Level 7, and Rank 6 spells, which you can't Assurance Learn until L15. Understandably, you cannot Assurance Learn a Rank 10 spell either. This assumes you're bumping Arcana at the earliest opportunity for your entire career.
What seems pretty clear to me is that moving away from the static DC would require a massive readjustment of everything. I'm not sure if that's a practical option outside of an Edition change.
Not an argument, really, but a small correction: You can't Channel Smite and Cry of Destruction on the same turn. Still, if your Warpriest has been spending gold on Property Runes, they could be doing 4d10+9d10+3d6+7 on that Channel Smite (+8 if they have a Str Apex.) Heck, maybe you've got Lasting Armament for another 2d6 Spirit. I'll admit to preferring Heal for my Font over Harm though. Anyways, enough Warpriest fanboy'ing for one post...
As it is, Alley Oop specifically cannot work with Item Creation of any kind. Signal a squadmate within the aura of your banner who is holding or wearing a consumable that can be activated as a single action. So, holding, or wearing. The item has to already exist when the Commander uses the Tactic. Still really cool,
I've been busier than expected lately... keep meaning to start making a whole bunch of replies to all of this. Been a really interesting round of discussion. Just wanted to quickly mention this: While not an official source, the Foundry PF2 devs have implemented Sticky Bomb as detailed by Blue_frog: the Bomber's L5 Field Discovery and Expanded Splash both increase the amount of Persistent Damage. I've run some math on this... it's not exactly world-shaking damage. But it's enough to keep Bombers right in the pack of those who aren't combining Cantrips with Ranged Strikes. Which is decent company to be in, IMHO.
So, as might be expected, Blue_frog's What classes got the biggest buffs in remaster ? thread got a fair amount of Alchemist discussion. I had meant to chime in with my experiences, but I didn't get to it, and the Alchemist discussion wasn't really fitting with the original topic. So I thought I'd create my own thread. I play two Alchemists in PFS, a L12 Bomber and a L11 Mutagenist. I've converted both of them to PC2 rules. Generally speaking, the Class is still fun for me. I do miss being able to make a lot of stuff every daily prep, but with some adjustment the fun is still there. The Bomber: I make four Quicksilvers, a Darkvision Elixir, an Antiplague, and a couple of Antidotes every day. As I didn't need Calculated Splash anymore, took Efficient Alchemy as the L4 Feat, so 11 AA items each day. The three left over? Those I'm open to what the party needs, but I've tended towards Bravo's Brews. Versatile Vials? Out of Combat, Versatile Vials are amazing. However, if an Encounter seems likely, I hoard them. Can't use Additives without VVs, and the Boss fights at these levels tend to go pretty long. Almost ran out a couple of times. While I'm not terribly thrilled with Quick Vials, I gotta admit that the addition of Special Materials has helped. As for the Mutagenist: I have a rather different approach with him. Namely, making him really, really hard to kill. I'm regularly burning three Versatile Vials every ten minutes (thank you, Powerful Alchemy) to keep up Bravo's Brew, Eagle-Eye Elixir and Cheetah's Elixir all the time. Start of combat, hit the Collar for a thirty minute Bestial Mutagen and ten temp HP. I do like the Mutagenist Field Benefit. Start of Combat is usually a Combine Elixirs Numbing & Soothing super Tonic. Then it's into the fight. I haven't used the Field Discovery yet, but I'm glad it's there. Failing a Fort Save can often ruin the encounter. As for the Field Vials ability (and the advanced effect: I haven't really used it yet. I usually have two Versatile Vials left over once Encounter Mode hits, and I am a firm subscriber to the belief that Versatile Vials are Tools... so I could use one or both for the Field Vials abilities at an Action a pop. Thing is, I'm used to just accepting the Drawback of Bestial... and the Drawback of PC2 Bestial isn't as bothersome as the Core Rulebook variety was. I might run into a situation where the Physical Damage Resistence might be useful though. I dunno... we shall see, I guess. Wish I got to play these characters more often, but high level PFS Scenarios don't grow on trees. Going forward, it's going to be trickier with the Mutagenist. See, I spent two Class Feats to get Martial Artist Dedication and Follow-Up Strike. Which has been great, don't get me wrong... Follow-Up Strike when you have a 3d12 Astral Shock Deadly d10 Bite attack is absolutely fantastic. Thing is, it leaves him a bit short on Advanced Alchemy items. He has a Familiar, and I do take Extra Alchemy daily, but that's only ten items total. Come L13 I'm going to have to make some adjustments to add a second Mutagen into the routine. Might try to take Efficient Alchemy at L14 to get a couple of more a day. So yeah, I consider both of those Research Fields to be in a pretty good place. I have some thoughts on Chirurgeon and Toxicologist as well, but I don't actually play them, so I think I'll just leave it at this for now. Thoughts?
If no one take one of these classes and doesn't take Canny Acumen as perception, the party is unable to detect most hazards after level 10. These hazards usually requires a master in perception in order to notice them. Canny Acumen won't help with that... at least, it won't help until Level 17. Canny Acumen bumps to Expert on taking it, and then Master at L17.
If you want maximum shield block effect (maximum hardness), you want the stats of a Sturdy Shield of the appropriate level. The most cost efficient way to get there is to own a Moderate Sturdy Shield (L10), costing 1,000 gp and then start upgrading with on-level Reinforcing Runes at L13+. You end up behind by 500 gp at L13 (it costs 2,500 gp for a Greater Reinforcing Rune; it costs 2,000 gp to upgrade a Moderate Sturdy Shield to Greater.) However, this is more than made up by the savings to get to the stats of a Major Sturdy Shield (L16.) It costs 7,000 gp to upgrade from a Greater to Major Sturdy Shield. It costs 5,500 gp to upgrade the Rune. The cost savings to get to Supreme are even larger. Upgrading a Major Rune to Supreme is 24,000 gp. It costs 40,000 gp to upgrade a Major Sturdy Shield. So yeah, you can save 25 gp by just getting a Minor Reinforcing Rune at L4. Thing is, the stats granted by a Lesser Rune aren't as good as those of a Lesser Sturdy Shield (-2 Hardness, -8 HP, -4 HP Break Threshold), so you want the Sturdy Shield. At which point benwilsher18's cost analysis comes in. So yeah, I would totally buy a Minor Sturdy Shield, upgrade it until Moderate at L10, and then go Reinforcing Runes from there.
Having played a high-level Wizard during my last in-person campaign (which we will eventually return to, I'm confident) I swear by index cards for spells. I picked up a bunch of small ones from a dollar store and turned them into my spellbook. Every time I'd cast a spell, I'd just put that card to the side. They can be as detailed or as simple as you want.
It still applies, just not nearly as often. There are occasions where a poison's DC is actually better than an Alchemist's Class DC at that level.
This was a topic on the /r/pathfinder2e sub-Reddit a couple of days ago. So I guess I'll just chime in on my favourite armor property rune: Ready. I've had a few too many middle of the night ambushes I guess.
I really should reinstall Steam and pick up Dawnsbury Days. I backed The Dragon's Demand... I'm really looking forward to it, but it's still quite a ways off.
<Some great analysis work on Mono Wood> I really enjoyed this, but I feel compelled to point out one flaw in your analysis. You can't use Weapon Infusion with the free Elemental Blast from Channel Elements.
If your next action is an Elemental Blast, choose a weapon shape for it to take. The Elemental Blast is a subordinate action of Channel Elements. You can't Weapon Infusion Free Action and then Channel Elements; that doesn't meet the "your next action" clause of Weapon Infusion. And you can't insert Weapon Infusion between Channel Elements and its subordinate Blast either.
Oh, I fully agree. I have a L11 Mutagenist. He's Dex +2... suffice it to say, Bomb Feats aren't on his radar, and I am quite glad that other than the base VV acid bomb, there's nothing in there screaming "thou shalt throw Bombs as an Alchemist." Instead, he's picked up things like a couple of Martial Artist feats, (although to be honest sometimes I wonder if I'd be better off just grabbing more Alchemist Feats), Mutant Physique, Alchemist Familiar, Revivifying Mutagen, Combine Elixirs... that sorta thing.
I gotta say, looking at a mono Water build... I think there's a lot of potential there. They've got some neat stuff! Throw in some appropriate Class Feats (I see real potential in a Safe Elements/Winter Sleet combo) and yeah, I'm pretty sure you'd have a solid build.
For example, there's my favourite Class and Sub-class, the Alchemist Bomber. Every Class Feat level, 1st to 20th, with the exception of 4th, there's a Bomb related Feat. On a few levels, there's more than one. But you don't have to take them. You're definitely going to want to take some of them, but not all of them. Which is good, because as Claxon mentions, there are things outside the "group" that are great. On my 12th level Bomber, it's specifically Revivifying Mutagen and Efficient Alchemy. (He has 8 Class Feats thanks to Cultural Adaptibility.) None of his 14th, 16th or 18th level Feats are going to be Bomb related, and I'm dithering about L20 (Mega Bomb is very on theme, but Alchemical Revivification is just really, really cool, even though it would probably never come up.)
I tend to prefer Numbing, as it can absorb more damage over the course of a fight. Juggernaut still has its places though. With a 10 minute duration, Juggernaut is easier to pre-buff with. Plus, it is really great with Fortitude Saves. And finally, Juggernaut is better at absorbing one big hit, and sometimes that's important.
I run Abomination Vaults for some friends. One of them has built a Precision Ranger, who uses an Arbalest with Gravity Weapon. And yeah, it's worked really, really well. I gotta admit, I don't think he has Running Reload. At least, I can't remember him using it. Still though, he generally casts Gravity Weapon before going through the door, and then gets himself into position first round. He never Strikes twice in one round... he'll use his third to reposition if needed, or do stuff like Recall Knowledge. Still, the Arbalest hits like a truck.
Swallow Whole is one reason my PFS Bomber got the World Traveler Boon: I wanted access to Oxygen Oozes.
Tailwind is powerful enough that many people consider a Wand of Tailwind to be a default part of a loadout, so any expansion of it should be limited. I would nerf the duration to 10 minutes for alternative speeds.Yeah, it's very common for a character to spend a single general feat on Trick Magic item and invest in having a trained skill in Arcane or Nature in order to be able to activate a wand, with it having a 1 hr duration its on the verge of too good. Doesn't even need a General Feat. As it has both the General and Skill traits, you can spend a Skill Feat to acquire Trick Magic Item.
I've only played my Bomber once using PC2 rules... the joys of being a PFS character. I've played my Mutagenist a few times now using the same ruleset. And I have to agree with Trip, the approach to VVs is completely different between the two. The Bomber, I used his 11 AA items (he has Efficient Alchemy) for long term Elixirs. Four Quicksilvers, a Greater Darkvision, an Antiplague, a couple of Antidotes. The other three I kept in reserve in my planning in case somebody in the Party wanted something, but IIRC I just ended up making into Bravo's Brews. The Versatile Vials I kept for Bombs. Good thing too... the Boss Fight turned out to be 8 rounds long. The Mutagenist, on the other hand... the Mutagenist, my focus is on buffing him. So Advanced, four Bestials for use in his Collar, a Darkvision, and for the other five it varied a bit. (He has a Familiar and usually uses Extra Alchemy and Extra Vial.) The Mutagenist, I'm doing 3 Vials every 10 minutes for Cheetah's, Eagle-Eye and Bravo's Brew. First round, after the Collar, is usually a Combine Elixirs Numbing & Soothing super-Tonic. So, both pretty different, but both a lot of fun.
While still fun to play, and stronger in some ways, I do kinda mourn the support Alchemist. At the end of Outlaws of Alkenstar, my Core Rulebook L10 Bomber was handing out 4 Elixirs of Life per day as emergency healing, one for each of us. He was giving 4 Silvertongue Elixirs to the Bard, 4 Numbing Tonics to the Inventor, and a couple of Life Shot bullets to the Vanguard. And he had enough Batches of Infused Reagents leftover to have 4 Quicksilver Mutagens, 9 Bombs and had three Batches left over for Alchemical Rabbits through Quick Alchemy. (In case you were wondering, he leaned pretty hard on his Perpetual Infusion Bombs with the Sticky Bomb feat. So much fun.) Just can't do that anymore. I have a PC2 L12 Alchemist Bomber... he can do 11 Items a day in Advanced Alchemy. His Versatile Vials he saves for Sticky Bombs... and he's needed to. So yeah, RIP support Alchemist.
Idk what it is, but all my PCs have had crazy bad luck getting poisoned. Might be the Quicksilver ;) This is why I make Antidote part of my daily routine for my Bomber. <GRIN> I'm mixed about seeing more "shut-off switches" for Mutagens. Yes, I think it would lead to greater acceptance of them. On the other hand, I kinda like that Alchemists (including dabblers via Dedication) can have an edge in using them thanks to the Feats,
You know, I forgot all about Energy Mutagen. Good catch!
Drakeheart is the only Mutagen that can be turned off at will via Final Surge. Otherwise, you need either Revivifying Mutagen (Alchemist Feat L2) or Regurgitate Mutagen (L4) to end a Mutagen (and its Drawback) early. I'm curious to see if Paizo is going to change the Fury Cocktail Drawback in the Remastered Treasure Vault. FC and Bestial used to be identical... and they got rid of the AC penalty on Bestial. Be interesting to see if they do the same with FC.
Yeah, Drakeheart is really, really solid. Especially since it has a built-in shutdown clause if you feel the Drawback is really biting you. My favourite experience with Drakeheart was a PFS game back in the Core Rulebook days (when buffing others was so much easier.) My 4th level Bomber made some Drakeheart for a 2nd level Sorcerer. The whole game (it was on Roll20, so very little automation) the guy was double-checking his AC and saying "Nope, missed because of the Mutagen." Mind you, that was an extreme case... I think the guy's AC went from 14 to 19 IIRC.
Never said that, don't put words in my mouth. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm quoting your words. My issue, since beta, is that Alchemist stuff get massively penaltized for stacking with Spells, but Spells don't get penaltized for stacking with Alchemist stuff.It's from this post.
I'm not actually arguing that it's ok to have penalties because they stack. I'm simply saying it's ok Mutagens have penalties, period. That what they have to offer is worth the tradeoff. I've also stated that I like that they stack. Something I appreciate every time I'm lucky enough to be in a party that does stuff like Bless or Courageous Anthem.
You are, in my opinion, over-simplifying. Particularly when it comes to Alchemists. Firstly, you don't have to use Quick Alchemy for Mutagens. It's just as easy to use Advanced Alchemy, and that is indeed my preferred route. Advanced Alchemy opens up Collar use (although I don't anymore with my Bomber, because I prefer full duration Quicksilver.) The only advantage of using Quick Alchemy is to keep the Mutagen up at all times, and that's not really necessary. On my Mutagenist, I prefer keeping three Elixirs going and saving Bestial for combat with a Collar. My Bomber saves all his Versatile Vials for Sticky Bombs. +1 to all skills is, indeed, very nice. However, there is a serious question of whether or not the skill is relevant in an Encounter. For example, my Bomber is only Trained in Athletics and is Str +0. So, he's never actually used Athletics for anything in an Encounter. There are a lot more Skills like that than not, to be honest. Acrobatics, on the other hand, is Dex based. So, while it's only Trained as well, it's come up a bit more often... usually for Balance actions or an occasional Tumble Through. It's still not enough to invest in a pair of Blast Slippers or Greater Arboreal Boots... and thanks to Quicksilver, I don't have to. Similar for Stealth, which he is a Master in. Yes, you can invest in a Greater Shadow Rune and then get +1 from Heroism... but again, I don't have to. There is also the problem of how to add Heroism to your routine. The least costly way is Trick Magic Item, as it's just a Skill Feat. Problem there is that using it is a 3-Action activity, which is pretty harsh. Not bad if you have a chance to pre-buff, but that is too rare for my tastes. These days with Quicksilver it's usually 1 Action (have Quicksilver in hand) or 0 Actions (because it's been less than an hour since the last time he took it.) My Mutagenist uses a Collar because of their Field Benefit. Superior would be something like Witch Dedication with an Occult or Divine Patron. The feat cost is a bit steeper though, as it's a Class Feat. Then there's the source of the spell. Yes, 30 gp a pop eventually becomes cheap, but the key word is "eventually." The scrolls themselves don't even become available until 5th level. I might be overly cautious, but I prep for four encounters a day. That's potentially 120 gp per day. It's going to be a while for that to become affordable.There are other expenses to consider. My Mutagenist has fully invested Handwraps of Mighty Blows because of access to Property Runes. Meanwhile, with just the Class Abilities, my Bomber has been on Quicksilver for multiple Encounters per day for no cost in either gold or feats, since L1.
At the end of the day, voluntarily dropping my hp to the lowest caster levels and dropping fort saves by a prof level for a +1 to hit and some bonus movement is too much for me. If you're good with that, then great. But I hope you can understand where it's a bridge too far for others. Don't forget the +2 to Reflex Saves and the additional +1 over permanent items to Stealth. (I don't really use Acrobatics, although when I've needed it I can't complain. Thievery not my thing.) As for it being a bridge too far for some... sure, I get that. Like I said previously, I keep putting my perspective out there because I wholeheartedly disagree with the belief being put out there that it's a bad idea for everyone. It's not.
As far as class HD, that part of a total package: taking a mutagen doesn't get you a spell list so it's an apples to orange argument IMO to make a tangent comparing class HD and taking unhealable damage. Like I said: different perspectives. I'm not looking at what my HP are on Quicksilver and saying, well, do I have the power of a full Spellcaster now that I've put my HP to this level? Does everything balance out? I'm simply concerned with "OK, if I make this choice to gain these particular benefits, will my Bomber survive?" And the answer is, across 22 levels of playing a Bomber (1-12, 1-10) yes. I get very concrete benefits that mesh well with my primary concept: I want to throw Bombs at things. For me, it's a complete win.
Things like the skeptics elixir, or the previously mentioned bravos brew which very well represent Paizo's design when it comes to consumables that grant item bonuses. Without a penalty, you are looking at a +1 bump in a single category over a longer duration with maybe an extra effect. +1 over a shorter duration with more impactful extra effects. Many agree that is a good place for consumables, Others argue its to specific depending on what the category is. What I find interesting about the Elixirs is that, generally, they are +1 over a permanent Item, and +2 in a specific area... although it depends on the level. So Bravo's is +1 above Resilient Runes from L2 to L7... simply because Resilients come in at L8. It's +2 against Fear for that same period. Drops to +1 to Fear for L8 & 9, before going back to the +1/+2 paradigm for L10-L13. +1 to Fear again for L14, and then back to +1/+2 for L15-19 (with that nice Bravery Fear save bump.) Eagle-eye is similar, although in general Eagle-Eye also has the advantage of applying to all Perception checks, as opposed to a subset like most permanent items.
You've missed my point. There is no evidence that Mutagens have penalties because they stack with Spells. That is a supposition that you have advanced, repeatedly, with absolutely no evidence. What is known is that Mutagens in 1st Edition introduced the "benefits to an area with penalties to another" mechanic. Why, we don't know. I would speculate that it goes back to the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde story, but that is just speculation on my part. 2nd Edition has continued that mechanic, although toned down (as most Buff mechanics in 2nd Ed have been toned down, as far as I understand.) So unless you come to me and point me to some statement from a developer saying "We did it this way because Mutagens stack with Spells" all you have is a theory about the design that you cannot prove. I was speaking of the reality that Mutagens and Spells stack. And that some of us, like myself, enjoy taking advantage of that fact. Reminds me that I never drank a mutagen yet since PF-2E came out and the only one I might is quicksilver but the hit point damage is so far dumb to me that I can't bare the thought of bringign myself closer to death/downed... I am genuinely curious: is 6 HP/level a deal-breaker for you when choosing your Class? In other words, are Psychic, Sorcerer, Witch & Wizard off the table for you due to their HP? If that's the case, hey, I understand completely... the "squishy spellcaster" trope can be hard to take, especially when Bards, Clerics, Druids and other Spellcasters are 33% tougher. There are those who look at 6 HP/level and tally it up as part of the "power budget" and accept it that way. I have a slightly different perspective: I look at it as proof the Designers believe that Characters can survive the game with just 6 HP a level. Back when I started looking at Quicksilver, I was trying very, very hard to understand why the Designers thought anyone would use that stuff. The -2 Fort Saves? Well, over time, as Fort Saves advanced, that would become less relevant. But 2HP per level? Why would anyone do that to themselves? That's when I realized the correlation. Use Quicksilver, and become a "squishy spellcaster". And I've played Wizards before... my very first Pathfinder 2e character was a Wizard. That character has survived many, many encounters... usually because he's Ranged and a back-line character. Which is exactly the same way I play my Bomber on Quicksilver. Plus, the Bomber has a better AC (the Wizard won't reach +5 Dex until 20th.) I know there are those who believe that, as Alchemical Items are less powerful than Spells, that the tradeoff isn't worth it. And it's true... you don't have to use Mutagens as an Alchemist anymore. You can accept that there are four annoying levels (5,6,13,14) and just play the game with the accuracy of a Thaumaturge. But as I tend to repeat, a lot, there's always more to a Mutagen than just a +1 over a permanent item like a Weapon Potency Rune. And most Mutagens don't have a Drawback as severe as Quicksilver's. It's a tradeoff, and it's a choice. And what I will always argue against is the notion that using one is categorically a bad choice. It's paid off for me far too many times for me to ever accept that.
So, am I correct in thinking that the argument is: as a permanent item (weapon rune, skill item) + Heroism is stronger than just a Mutagen, with no Drawback, therefore Mutagens are simply not worth it? I find that fascinating. I suppose if the choice were either/or, I could understand that. But despite the theoretical argument that Mutagens are penalized because Item Bonuses stack with Status Bonuses... The fact is, they do stack. Which is a very nice thing for those of us, like myself, who appreciate Mutagens. I mean, my Mutagenist is 11th level now. From now on Bestial gives +1 over what any permanent Athletics item can give him. From 15th to 19th, when he catches up Str wise, he'll be the best there is, outside of Status Bonuses. He'll also be better at Striking than anyone other than a Fighter or Gunslinger. So that makes him a pretty decent candidate for Heroism, right? That's the usual strategy: cast Heroism on those who have an edge already, to make that edge even bigger? I'm not fully qualified to determine whether or not Mutagens are good design. But I've gone over the benefits and Drawbacks a lot, and in most cases, I've decided that they're worth it. In the right circumstances. I've used Quicksilver and Bestial in dozens of encounters. I've never regretted it. I've never had anyone take me up on it, but Cognitive on Casters can be a good fit. Bards and Swashbucklers love Silvertongue, as long as they aren't big into Recall Knowledge. Frontliners tend to still like Juggernaut, even though Numbing Tonic has ate its lunch a bit. Serene is the only one that I don't think has a niche in Encounters, although I suppose if you knew you were going up against a lot of Mental effects, maybe. Outside of Encounters... well, I don't think anyone can deny how useful Mutagens are outside of Encounters. I suppose this is a long-winded way of stating: using Mutagens is a choice. In my experience, when used on the right build, it's a choice that has paid off many, many times. I can't say whether it's good design, but it's effective, it's fun, and I'm glad the option is there.
a)the fort and hp penalty basically gives you caster defences (1 good save, 2 bad, 6 hp) on a martial character. A) Like the above poster said, if you're using Quicksilver, you're probably ranged (bombers love Quicksilver, although being precise with a bomb is not THAT big of a DPS increase). If you're a melee alchemist, apart from some very specific dex builds that make you jump through hoops, you'll probably get a different mutagen. Exactly. My Bombers use Quicksilver regularly... and you'd be surprised how many encounters end with them only taking Quicksilver damage. Ranged is a very potent defense in and of itself, in my experience. There have been exceptions, of course... I remember one particular Outlaws of Alkenstar encounter where things were cramped and my Bomber was focused on. But overall, being Ranged is a lifesaver. My Mutagenist uses Bestial.
I have absolutely used Quicksilver, and failed a Fort save I'd have otherwise passed, and been downed because of that missing HP. That sucked enough to swear off the stuff, and it was only the discovery of the Combine double that had me try it again.Whereas I can't count the times where I've succeeded because of what Quicksilver has to offer. I almost always know... man, do I love Modifiers Matter on Foundry. But I've lost track. Have there been times when the Drawback has bit me? Absolutely... but those occasions are rare compared to the times where it helped me. My issue, since beta, is that Alchemist stuff get massively penaltized for stacking with Spells, but Spells don't get penaltized for stacking with Alchemist stuff. That's an interesting way to look at it. I have to say, I've never seen it that way. I've always thought that Mutagens were just a natural evolution from how they worked in 1st Edition. You get something for a cost. The PF2 Mutagens are both more formalized (different formulae for different effect) and more flexible (you don't need a Discovery to keep various Mutagens around for various purposes) and, of course, other people can actually use Mutagens now, not just Alchemists.I honestly don't think the penalties are because they stack with Status Bonuses. For one thing, there are plenty of non-Mutagen Elixirs that stack, but have no penalties. (My two favourites: Bravo's Brews and Eagle-Eye Elixirs.) I also have no idea how you could change things to penalize Spells for stacking with Mutagens. Unlike Mutagens, Spells in Pathfinder have never come with Drawbacks. I can't imagine how big of an uproar there'd be were such a thing be implemented somehow.
6. You make the downside a Item penalty, a penalty that is used practically nowhere else (so we keep forgetting about them). You're mistaken here, btw. Take a closer look... Mutagens generally have Untyped penalties. They're meant to stack with everything. Ah, a discussion on Mutagen design! It must be my lucky day. Personally, I love, love, love Mutagens... but you have to match the right Mutagen to the right Class. Let's look at my personal favourite: Quicksilver. Quicksilver is probably the most disparaged Mutagen due to its Drawbacks... and the Drawbacks are substantial, I agree. Where I disagree is whether they're too harsh. For one thing, I see a lot of "you're tanking your fort save" comments. I disagree. From levels 1-8 a lot of Classes are only Trained in Fort Saves. Which is the same level of Fort Save of an Alchemist on Quicksilver. Levels 9-10 are a bit harsh... lowest Fort Saves in the game, unfortunately. But then you hit 11th level, and you end up with Expert Fort saves with a Success->Crit Success bump built in. 10.3 Classes have Expert Fort saves from 11-20, barring Canny Acumen investment... pretty decent company, IMHO. Only the Rogue gets the same Bump. As for the damage, well, it takes you from an 8 HP/level Class to a 6 HP/level. So, the same as Psychics, Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards. However do they survive? </sarcasm>. If you're using Quicksilver, you should be Ranged. Unless you're a Dex based Fighter, I suppose. Or maybe a Raging Thrower Barbarian. Going from a 10 HP to 8 HP is ok... I play a Melee Mutagenist, after all, and survive just fine. (12 to 10 would be easy.) And what do you get in return? Well, there's that Item Bonus to Dex Based Strikes. Everybody knows that one. There's the Speed bonus. Don't hear as much about that one. Most folks dismiss it because, well, Tailwind wands. I tend to look at it differently... I'm using Quicksilver. I don't need to invest in Trick Magic Item. Besides, my Bomber is 12th level now. Quicksilver is faster. There's the Item Bonus to Acrobatics, Stealth & Thievery. Which are, generally, just better than alternatives. They come in earlier, they're +1 stronger, they apply to all uses of the Skill instead of just a subset... you get the picture. And finally, there's the bonus to Reflex Saves. I almost never hear people discussing that one. I mean, it's +2 better than anything else for 11 out of 20 levels. The rest of the time it's +1.
Forget tying to use them in Soceity Play. You & I have vastly different experiences with Mutagens and Society Play. Especially since Remaster. Cognitive Mutagen basically steals the show in Society Play. +X Bonus to any Recall Knowledge Skill. Plus, you cannot Crit Fail the check. There's always a lot of RK checks in every Scenario. And that's just levels 1-10. Level 11+, Greater Cognitive comes into play, along with being able to customize it on the spot with Quick Alchemy. Last time I played my Bomber, we ran into a Void Energy effect. So I whipped up at QA Greater Cognitive, and informed the GM I was now trained in Void Energy Lore for then next 10 minutes. With a +5 Int Bonus and a +3 Item Bonus, plus I could not Crit Fail. The entire table was laughing with glee at that one. Funnily enough, as much as I hate the duration nerf of Quick Alchemy'd Elixirs, the change has actually increased the popularity of Mutagens in the Society games I've played and run. People seem to be more ok with Drawbacks if they only last ten minutes, it seems.
Spiderfoot Brew used to be Uncommon, IIRC. It originally appeared in the Fumbus comic from Dark Horse, then it was reprinted in Treasure Vault.
I find it kinda interesting. I was looking at it for unrelated reasons just yesterday. If you buy a Sturdy Shield and upgrade it to L10, the Shield Ally ability will keep it just as good as a fully upgraded Sturdy Shield. Not bad. If you were planning on investing in your Sturdy Shield, +1 hardness is always welcome. Finally, if you liked some of the specialty shields, the Ally lets you make it a decent blocker (not quite as good as a Sturdy Shield) for free. Nice.
One of my favourite examples of game concepts combining in unexpected ways with "the real world" (or stuff like kingdom building) is the Bottled Monstrosity Worm Vial. This thing can create a 40' tunnel through solid rock in two Actions. The applications in construction are enormous. I consider it to be the biggest argument against Alchemists being able to use Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy to create Bottled Monstrosities.
Our forever GM wanted to try 2nd Edition, so we agreed... and ported over our party of L12 D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder 2e. We enjoyed it, so we decided to stick with it. Then I decided to try out Pathfinder Society 2e play. Pathfinder has been my main hobby ever since.
When I wrote my Alchemical Items guide, I decided to go with a common sense approach. If it's a food item, and it's Alchemical, it counts as an Alchemical Food. So, IMHO, Bravo's Brew is the first Alchemical Food (from Core Rulebook), as it it has the line "This Flask of foaming beer. So, I count the following as Alchemical Foods (outside of Treasure Vault and the Tian Xia Character Guide.):
I find myself thinking that the reason it ultimately will never happen is that a 15th level Runelord, having indulged the Sin of Greed for so, so long... would just find the rate of return too low.
I'd be really curious to hear details of your Build. Fighter/Alchemist can go a lot of different ways.
In 2 years and 2 weeks, you could assemble 10 wands. Using those alone, you could earn 70gp per day which is over 25,000gp per year. Those numbers don't seem very boring for an hour of "work" per day, then a few minutes once you have the wands. That's still over two years of using every 7th and 8th level slot you have, plus Drain Bonded Item, plus however many Wands you have at that point. You're really putting your life on hold for over two years, to reach a point where you can earn 25,000 gp per year for free.
RAW? Nothing. On a practical basis? Time. Chrysopoetic Curse is a 7th Rank Spell, meaning a Wand of Chrysopoetic Curse is a 15th Level item costing 6,500 gp. As the Curse leaves behind 2d6 gp worth of gold flakes and dust (unless the target Critically Succeeded on the Saving Throw), at an average of 7 gp per Casting you would need to cast the Curse 929 times to afford a Wand. At 15th level you could cast the Spell 8 times a day with Drain Bonded Item. So, that's 116 days, with you devoting all your Rank 7 and Rank 8 spellslots, plus your use of Drain Bonded Item, every day. Is it doable? Yes. Seems like a really boring way to live your life though.
The benefit is that you can be casting the Composition Cantrip while doing any Exploration Activity. So you don't have to be using Repeat a Spell... You can do this while using Defend, or Search, or even Avoid Notice (although I wouldn't blame any GM for disallowing that one.)
Rune of Observation is a bit limited in that you have to be able to see where you place the sensor. But after that? For long-term surveillance there's nothing like it. My 15th level Wizard, his group needed to get information out of a base commander. He and the party Rogue snuck into the base, got to his office, set the sensor above the desk, and retreated to a safe spot roughly 500' away. And proceeded to watch the commander sitting at his desk, going about his day, for the rest of the day. Reports, personnel lists, all kind of things were open on that desk while my Wizard watched. And as he had a +5 Intelligence, the GM ruled that he could easily remember everything he could see. It was fantastic.
My money's on them getting it from ... PFS feedback...As a reminder, PFS reports include nothing about characters, not even their level. Well, yes, there's a name. I GM PFS2e. When you report, it's Character Name, Faction, PFS Player # and Character #. Class is never mentioned in the Reporting. Sign-up sheets ask for it because it helps the GMs prep for the games.
I have a Level 15 Wizard in a friend's homebrew campaign. Started him at Level 12... we brought the campaign over from D&D 3.5 at that level (the GM wanted to try Pathfinder, and, well, keeping the GM happy is a priority when he's been running for 10+ years.) I've been giving a lot of thought to playing a Wizard in PFS. Kinda based on my other Wizard, but making some different choices. For one thing, I went Rogue Dedication with the other guy. I think I'd like to go straight Wizard this time. One thing I've noticed: For the early levels, I think Wizards have the edge on Cantrips. For the first few levels Cantrips are, IMHO, pretty important. Any Wizard can, of course, swap out their Prepared Cantrips every day. They share that capability with the Witch. The Sorcerer can't do that, at least not until later levels (when they're able to rely more on Spell Slots anyways.) I mean, I like Eat Fire... Fire damage is common, it's a Cantrip that uses a Reaction (and a 1st level Wizard doesn't have a lot of uses for Reactions, usually), it has a fun secondary effect... what's not to like? Still though, if I know I'm going to be facing the zombie master, I'd rather slot something else. By a strict reading, Spell Substitution doesn't work with Cantrips, as it specifies spell slots... but really, I think it's not a big stretch for the Thesis that enables swapping prepared spells to be able to swap a prepared Cantrip. Spell Blending? While yes, it doesn't work to get high level slots for a while, you can still trade any slot to prepare two additional Cantrips that day. I can see value in the early levels for doing that. Staff Nexus: While I agree with everyone who thinks that the whole "spend a 1st Rank slot to charge a single 1st Rank spell from the Staff" is pointless... it still will give an additional Cantrip (and you don't have to charge the Staff for that.) The other two Theses don't really help in that way. I'm not a big Familiar fan, so I've never really examined what Improved Familiar Attunement really gives you. I think though, that I'm going to stick with Experimental Spellshaping. I like starting with Reach Spell (going to go Human and grab Spellbook Prodigy as well.) My 15th level guy has gotten a lot of use out being able to swap between Spellshaping Feats. So that'll be fun at 4th. So I'm looking at going Ars Magica, and I think it will work out quite well. Command is a fun School spell. Never noticed before that it shuts down Reactions until the Command is obeyed. Kinda cool. One thing I do like about the new Schools over the old: the old Schools didn't give you free Spells in your Spellbook. The new ones do. I can appreciate that. Third action, I have some options. Move, as always. Cast Shield if I prep it. (I do like Shield.) If I'm stuck close to the action, Protective Wards is there. Want to keep my distance? Reach Spell. Anyways, I'm rambling.
Alchemist/Investigator is a pretty insanely strong Dual Class. Especially if you go with Alchemical Sciences Investigator, as that has some somewhat system-breaking interactions between the Alchemist's regenerating Versatile Vials and the Investigator's Quick Tincture ability.
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