ottdmk's page

I think Crashing Slam is a decent upgrade to Slam Down. I have a hard time comparing it to other Feats, but I will say this: If two-handed is your main Combat Style, Crashing Slam is definitely of interest. The Fighter in the Abomination Vaults campaign I run has made a lot of use of Slam Down... I would not be surprised to see him take Crashing Slam at 10th.

Seriously, SEVERAL cantrips lost the Attack trait with the Remaster, so might have well rectify this for an explosive result.

Well, that's one way. The other way would be to create some new Defense: AC spells in Impossible Magic.

It's all a matter of priorities. My Psychic player hasn't invested further in Psyche action Feats, but he's used Restore the Mind a lot. If he's not using that when Unleashed he's usually helping our Fighter out by casting Shield.

I know it's really, really high level, but I look at the idea of having L18's Twin Psyche (which was originally a L20 Capstone) combined with L20's Autonomic Psychic Action (brand new perm quickened for Psyche Actions only Capstone.)

There are a number of fun Psyche Actions, so the notion of a 4 round Unleash Psyche combined with more room for Psyche Actions is cool. I mean, Emotional Surge is a thing; you're not always going to be in a Party with a Bless or Courageous Anthem going on.

I strongly disagree with the use of Soothing Tonics as in-combat healing. As a start-of-combat buff, they're great. As out-of-combat recovery, they're amazing. But if my character is down, I don't want to be awake again with 1 hp (Levels 2-4), 3 hp (5-9), 5 hp (10-16) or 10 hp (17+). At each of those levels, it's way too easy to get knocked out again with a higher Dying value.

An Elixir of Life will usually give you a bigger buffer. Not a great one, particularly levels 1-4, but it will usually be better.

This is very similar to the Remastered Psychic Dedication. In that one, if you don't have a Focus Pool, you gain a Focus Pool of 1 point. If you already have a Focus Pool, you don't increase the pool size.

So I can easily believe that they went with "If you can't cast spells, you can now cast spells and choose a cantrip" with the counterpoint of if you can cast spells already you don't get another cantrip.

Yeah, I decided to go all-in on Agile weaponry for my Flurry Ranger, so why not make a third Strike? Or fourth? It's the same MAP as everyone else's Agile second...

I seldom do three with my Bomber though. When the odds of a Critical Miss are up around 45%, I'll usually move around a bit. Or maybe raise a Buckler for a little more AC.

If you compare the average Critical damage of a Deadly d10 weapon and a Fatal d10 weapon of the same base damage size, the Fatal weapon will usually reliably out-perform the Deadly one.

Compare, for example, the Short Bow (Deadly d10) with the Dueling Pistol (Fatal d10). This is just base weapon damage with the expected potency runes.

From levels 1-3 the bow averages 11 to the gun's 15.
L4-11, 19 bow - 27 gun.
L12-18, 31 bow - 37 gun.
L19-20, 44 bow - 49 gun.

Now,the bow has a faster firing rate, so it will probably outdamage the gun in the long run. But on an attack by attack basis, the gun will match or outperform the bow.

Edit: Drs visitation is better healing for the actions for sure, but not all chirurgeons will be medics, especially when the medicine proficiency is basically pointless now.

Well, don't forget that Chirurgeons get to use Crafting for anything Medicine related... including using to meet Feat prerequisites. Chirurgeons are the only ones who can take Medic without Medicine. Although Homebrew, I firmly believe any reasonable home game GM would let the Dedication raise a Chirurgeon's Crafting to Expert instead of Medicine.

So if the caster has +19 for spell attack and Spell DC at 29 they are not doing well.

Umnn, aren't your numbers a bit off? Proficiency Bonus at L14 is 18(L14 + Expert 4) plus normally Casting Attribute+5 for a total of +23 Spell Attack and Spell DC of 33.

So, hitting AC on a 13+ and Low Saves succeeding on 9-11.

Still not great, but not as bleak as you describe. If you get off-guard, that's hitting on an 11. With a Status Bonus, 10 or better.

If I missed something about how you arrived at +19/29, apologies.

I like at least one or two Attack Roll spells in my back pocket because Debuffs happen. If the target is off-guard and frightened 1, yeah, if I'm down to Cantrips that's when I pull out Telekinetic Projectile over Electric Arc.

The reinforcing rune basically makes it that any shield can have the same hardness, HP, BT as a sturdy shield while still having the other properties that make it special.

Not quite.

While a Minor Reinforcing Rune can make any Steel Shield the equal of a Minor Sturdy Shield, the Rune falls off from there.

A Lesser Rune will make a Steel Shield of 8 Hardness, 72 HP and 36 BT. Lesser Sturdy is 10 Hardness, 80 HP, 40 BT.

Moderate Rune: 8 Hardness, 84 HP, 42 BT
Moderate Sturdy: 13 Hardness, 104 HP, 52 BT

Greater Rune: 10 H, 100 HP, 52 BT
Greater Sturdy: 15 H, 120 HP, 60 BT

Major Rune: 10 H, 104 HP, 52 BT
Major Sturdy: 17 H, 136 HP, 68 BT

Supreme Rune: 12 H, 128 HP, 64 BT
Supreme Sturdy: 20 H, 160 HP, 80 BT

So, the Rune can make Blocking at higher levels worth it, but a proper Sturdy Shield will always be better at Blocking.

Of course, the thing I'd do is get a Moderate Sturdy and then start buying Runes with Greater at 13th... it's much cheaper.

The thing is at that point why bother having each ancestry have their own HP boost then? 4 HP is only a noticeable difference at 1st level, could probably save you at 2nd level, and pretty much not matter at all from 3rd level onwards.

Because I have an instinctive hatred of "one true builds", and I don't want the choice of Ancestry to be more impactful. I very much appreciate that you can start off as "the toughest", but that ultimately it doesn't really matter much.

I much prefer the current system, where a Halfling Barbarian is just 4 HP lifetime removed from a Minotaur Barbarian if both invest in the same Attributes and Feats.

For efficiency's sake, the most I'd go for is three: a Collar activation on Initiative followed up by a first round Combine Elixirs.

It does raise the hilarious idea of a Mutagenist entering battle with only Handwraps of Mighty Blows for a magic item.

(Using Bestial for offense with Drakeheart and Sanguine for defense, topped up with two-hour-long Bravo's Brews to handle Will Saves.)

One thing I find quite interesting is that in PF2e Remastered, spontaneous casters can't Counterspell without picking up Witch or Wizard dedication. When they reprinted Sorcerer, they removed Counterspell as a Feat.

(Yes, yes, I know all about the compatibility. However, I do find it interesting that anyone new to the game will not see Counterspell as a built-in option for Sorcerers.)

Rounding You may need to calculate a fraction of a value, like halving damage. Always round down unless otherwise specified. For example, if a spell deals 7 damage and a creature takes half damage from it, that creature takes 3 damage.

Just a FYI.

This got me thinking, what if the Toxicologist had an ability (probably upper level) to create toxins that affect creatures normally immune to poisons. Maybe they could only affect a specific sub-type.

Just a thought.

Field Benefit ... In addition, you flexibly mix acidic and poisonous alchemical compounds. Your infused poisons can affect creatures immune to poison. A creature takes acid damage instead of poison damage from your infused poisons if either the creature is immune to poison or that would be more detrimental to the creature (as determined by the GM). Typically, this benefit applies when the creature has an immunity, resistance, or weakness to one of the damage types.

Interesting. Don't think I'd allow it... even though Extend Blood Magic grants a Spellshape, it's a Focus Spell; i.e. you're still using Cast a Spell, which is a different thing from a Spellshape Action. So I wouldn't let you cast it as a free Action.

Putting all that aside, don't forget that Explosion of Power damage has a Basic Reflex Save. At 20th level, a lot of the time you're going to be getting less than the average damage.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like some of the problems might be to simply remove the following line from Psychic Dedication:

If you already have a focus pool, increase the number of points in your pool by 1.

If you don't have a focus pool, you gain a point. So that way you can use the Amp you've gained. If you do have a pool, you have a new option, but your resources don't go up. Kind of reminds me of how they do the Basic Alchemy Benefits: if you get them from more than one place, you have more ways to use Vials, but you don't increase the number of vials.

On the Magus side: Well, I've never really seen the need for damaging focus spells to use with Spellstrike. Heck, I'd probably go as far as banning the use of focus spells with Spellstrike. Spellstrikes are devastating enough with just Cantrips, IMHO.

PFS tends to use at-level DCs strictly for Skill Challenges. Which is understandable, as the whole point of a Skill Challenge is to be, well, Challenging. So you end up with things like overly difficult to climb Walls, because, well, see above.

Skill checks outside of Skill Challenges should still be up to the GM though, and should definitely use stuff like Simple DCs.

ottdmk wrote:

I rather like Assurance: Arcana for Wizards. You can generally auto-learn max Rank spells one level after they become available, starting at Level 3. The two exceptions are Rank 4 spells, which you can Assurance Learn right from Level 7, and Rank 6 spells, which you can't Assurance Learn until L15. Understandably, you cannot Assurance Learn a Rank 10 spell either.

This assumes you're bumping Arcana at the earliest opportunity for your entire career.

Combined with Magical Shorthand, you auto-crit succeed and get spells at half price too, though not max rank ones.

It even works with Max Rank spells... most of the time. It's just delayed a level.

For example: I plan for my PFS Wizard (currently 1st level) to take Assurance: Arcana as his 4th level Skill Feat. At 4th level, he can cast 2nd Rank Spells. The DC to learn such a spell is usually 18. (Player Core pg 231.) Assurance will give you an 18 at this level (4 (level) + 4 (Expert) + 10) so you can auto-learn the Spell (for half price if you have Magical Shorthand, as you mention.)

5th level, you gain access to 3rd Rank Spells, but the DC is 20 and Assurance only gives you 19 (5 (level) + 4 (Expert) + 10) so it doesn't work... but it will at 6th level.

This holds true for most of your career, with the following exceptions:

• The DC for Rank 4 Spells is 23, which Assurance gives you at 7th level when they become available.
• The DC for Rank 7 Spells is 31. You can't auto-learn a 7th Rank Spell until you hit 15th level. If it followed the trend it would be doable at 14th level.
• With a DC of 41, you will never Assurance auto-learn a Rank 10 spell.

I rather like Assurance: Arcana for Wizards. You can generally auto-learn max Rank spells one level after they become available, starting at Level 3. The two exceptions are Rank 4 spells, which you can Assurance Learn right from Level 7, and Rank 6 spells, which you can't Assurance Learn until L15. Understandably, you cannot Assurance Learn a Rank 10 spell either.

This assumes you're bumping Arcana at the earliest opportunity for your entire career.

What seems pretty clear to me is that moving away from the static DC would require a massive readjustment of everything. I'm not sure if that's a practical option outside of an Edition change.

Not an argument, really, but a small correction: You can't Channel Smite and Cry of Destruction on the same turn.

Still, if your Warpriest has been spending gold on Property Runes, they could be doing 4d10+9d10+3d6+7 on that Channel Smite (+8 if they have a Str Apex.) Heck, maybe you've got Lasting Armament for another 2d6 Spirit.

I'll admit to preferring Heal for my Font over Harm though.

Anyways, enough Warpriest fanboy'ing for one post...

As it is, Alley Oop specifically cannot work with Item Creation of any kind.

Signal a squadmate within the aura of your banner who is holding or wearing a consumable that can be activated as a single action.

So, holding, or wearing. The item has to already exist when the Commander uses the Tactic.

Still really cool,

I've been busier than expected lately... keep meaning to start making a whole bunch of replies to all of this. Been a really interesting round of discussion.

Just wanted to quickly mention this: While not an official source, the Foundry PF2 devs have implemented Sticky Bomb as detailed by Blue_frog: the Bomber's L5 Field Discovery and Expanded Splash both increase the amount of Persistent Damage.

I've run some math on this... it's not exactly world-shaking damage. But it's enough to keep Bombers right in the pack of those who aren't combining Cantrips with Ranged Strikes. Which is decent company to be in, IMHO.

So, as might be expected, Blue_frog's What classes got the biggest buffs in remaster ? thread got a fair amount of Alchemist discussion.

I had meant to chime in with my experiences, but I didn't get to it, and the Alchemist discussion wasn't really fitting with the original topic. So I thought I'd create my own thread.

I play two Alchemists in PFS, a L12 Bomber and a L11 Mutagenist. I've converted both of them to PC2 rules.

Generally speaking, the Class is still fun for me. I do miss being able to make a lot of stuff every daily prep, but with some adjustment the fun is still there.

The Bomber: I make four Quicksilvers, a Darkvision Elixir, an Antiplague, and a couple of Antidotes every day. As I didn't need Calculated Splash anymore, took Efficient Alchemy as the L4 Feat, so 11 AA items each day. The three left over? Those I'm open to what the party needs, but I've tended towards Bravo's Brews.

Versatile Vials? Out of Combat, Versatile Vials are amazing. However, if an Encounter seems likely, I hoard them. Can't use Additives without VVs, and the Boss fights at these levels tend to go pretty long. Almost ran out a couple of times.

While I'm not terribly thrilled with Quick Vials, I gotta admit that the addition of Special Materials has helped.

As for the Mutagenist: I have a rather different approach with him. Namely, making him really, really hard to kill. I'm regularly burning three Versatile Vials every ten minutes (thank you, Powerful Alchemy) to keep up Bravo's Brew, Eagle-Eye Elixir and Cheetah's Elixir all the time. Start of combat, hit the Collar for a thirty minute Bestial Mutagen and ten temp HP. I do like the Mutagenist Field Benefit.

Start of Combat is usually a Combine Elixirs Numbing & Soothing super Tonic. Then it's into the fight.

I haven't used the Field Discovery yet, but I'm glad it's there. Failing a Fort Save can often ruin the encounter. As for the Field Vials ability (and the advanced effect: I haven't really used it yet.

I usually have two Versatile Vials left over once Encounter Mode hits, and I am a firm subscriber to the belief that Versatile Vials are Tools... so I could use one or both for the Field Vials abilities at an Action a pop. Thing is, I'm used to just accepting the Drawback of Bestial... and the Drawback of PC2 Bestial isn't as bothersome as the Core Rulebook variety was. I might run into a situation where the Physical Damage Resistence might be useful though. I dunno... we shall see, I guess. Wish I got to play these characters more often, but high level PFS Scenarios don't grow on trees.

Going forward, it's going to be trickier with the Mutagenist. See, I spent two Class Feats to get Martial Artist Dedication and Follow-Up Strike. Which has been great, don't get me wrong... Follow-Up Strike when you have a 3d12 Astral Shock Deadly d10 Bite attack is absolutely fantastic. Thing is, it leaves him a bit short on Advanced Alchemy items. He has a Familiar, and I do take Extra Alchemy daily, but that's only ten items total. Come L13 I'm going to have to make some adjustments to add a second Mutagen into the routine. Might try to take Efficient Alchemy at L14 to get a couple of more a day.

So yeah, I consider both of those Research Fields to be in a pretty good place. I have some thoughts on Chirurgeon and Toxicologist as well, but I don't actually play them, so I think I'll just leave it at this for now.

Thoughts?

If no one take one of these classes and doesn't take Canny Acumen as perception, the party is unable to detect most hazards after level 10. These hazards usually requires a master in perception in order to notice them.

Canny Acumen won't help with that... at least, it won't help until Level 17. Canny Acumen bumps to Expert on taking it, and then Master at L17.

If you want maximum shield block effect (maximum hardness), you want the stats of a Sturdy Shield of the appropriate level. The most cost efficient way to get there is to own a Moderate Sturdy Shield (L10), costing 1,000 gp and then start upgrading with on-level Reinforcing Runes at L13+.

You end up behind by 500 gp at L13 (it costs 2,500 gp for a Greater Reinforcing Rune; it costs 2,000 gp to upgrade a Moderate Sturdy Shield to Greater.) However, this is more than made up by the savings to get to the stats of a Major Sturdy Shield (L16.) It costs 7,000 gp to upgrade from a Greater to Major Sturdy Shield. It costs 5,500 gp to upgrade the Rune.

The cost savings to get to Supreme are even larger. Upgrading a Major Rune to Supreme is 24,000 gp. It costs 40,000 gp to upgrade a Major Sturdy Shield.

So yeah, you can save 25 gp by just getting a Minor Reinforcing Rune at L4. Thing is, the stats granted by a Lesser Rune aren't as good as those of a Lesser Sturdy Shield (-2 Hardness, -8 HP, -4 HP Break Threshold), so you want the Sturdy Shield. At which point benwilsher18's cost analysis comes in.

So yeah, I would totally buy a Minor Sturdy Shield, upgrade it until Moderate at L10, and then go Reinforcing Runes from there.

Having played a high-level Wizard during my last in-person campaign (which we will eventually return to, I'm confident) I swear by index cards for spells. I picked up a bunch of small ones from a dollar store and turned them into my spellbook. Every time I'd cast a spell, I'd just put that card to the side. They can be as detailed or as simple as you want.

It still applies, just not nearly as often. There are occasions where a poison's DC is actually better than an Alchemist's Class DC at that level.

This was a topic on the /r/pathfinder2e sub-Reddit a couple of days ago. So I guess I'll just chime in on my favourite armor property rune: Ready. I've had a few too many middle of the night ambushes I guess.

I really should reinstall Steam and pick up Dawnsbury Days. I backed The Dragon's Demand... I'm really looking forward to it, but it's still quite a ways off.

<Some great analysis work on Mono Wood>

I really enjoyed this, but I feel compelled to point out one flaw in your analysis.

You can't use Weapon Infusion with the free Elemental Blast from Channel Elements.

Your kinetic aura activates, and as a part of this

action, you can use a 1-action Elemental Blast or a 1-action stance impulse.

If your next action is an Elemental Blast, choose a weapon shape for it to take.

The Elemental Blast is a subordinate action of Channel Elements. You can't Weapon Infusion Free Action and then Channel Elements; that doesn't meet the "your next action" clause of Weapon Infusion. And you can't insert Weapon Infusion between Channel Elements and its subordinate Blast either.

Oh, I fully agree. I have a L11 Mutagenist. He's Dex +2... suffice it to say, Bomb Feats aren't on his radar, and I am quite glad that other than the base VV acid bomb, there's nothing in there screaming "thou shalt throw Bombs as an Alchemist."

Instead, he's picked up things like a couple of Martial Artist feats, (although to be honest sometimes I wonder if I'd be better off just grabbing more Alchemist Feats), Mutant Physique, Alchemist Familiar, Revivifying Mutagen, Combine Elixirs... that sorta thing.

I gotta say, looking at a mono Water build... I think there's a lot of potential there. They've got some neat stuff! Throw in some appropriate Class Feats (I see real potential in a Safe Elements/Winter Sleet combo) and yeah, I'm pretty sure you'd have a solid build.

For example, there's my favourite Class and Sub-class, the Alchemist Bomber. Every Class Feat level, 1st to 20th, with the exception of 4th, there's a Bomb related Feat. On a few levels, there's more than one.

But you don't have to take them. You're definitely going to want to take some of them, but not all of them.

Which is good, because as Claxon mentions, there are things outside the "group" that are great. On my 12th level Bomber, it's specifically Revivifying Mutagen and Efficient Alchemy. (He has 8 Class Feats thanks to Cultural Adaptibility.) None of his 14th, 16th or 18th level Feats are going to be Bomb related, and I'm dithering about L20 (Mega Bomb is very on theme, but Alchemical Revivification is just really, really cool, even though it would probably never come up.)

I tend to prefer Numbing, as it can absorb more damage over the course of a fight.

Juggernaut still has its places though. With a 10 minute duration, Juggernaut is easier to pre-buff with. Plus, it is really great with Fortitude Saves. And finally, Juggernaut is better at absorbing one big hit, and sometimes that's important.

I run Abomination Vaults for some friends. One of them has built a Precision Ranger, who uses an Arbalest with Gravity Weapon. And yeah, it's worked really, really well. I gotta admit, I don't think he has Running Reload. At least, I can't remember him using it. Still though, he generally casts Gravity Weapon before going through the door, and then gets himself into position first round. He never Strikes twice in one round... he'll use his third to reposition if needed, or do stuff like Recall Knowledge. Still, the Arbalest hits like a truck.

Swallow Whole is one reason my PFS Bomber got the World Traveler Boon: I wanted access to Oxygen Oozes.

Agonarchy wrote:

Tailwind is powerful enough that many people consider a Wand of Tailwind to be a default part of a loadout, so any expansion of it should be limited. I would nerf the duration to 10 minutes for alternative speeds.

Yeah, it's very common for a character to spend a single general feat on Trick Magic item and invest in having a trained skill in Arcane or Nature in order to be able to activate a wand, with it having a 1 hr duration its on the verge of too good.

Doesn't even need a General Feat. As it has both the General and Skill traits, you can spend a Skill Feat to acquire Trick Magic Item.

I've only played my Bomber once using PC2 rules... the joys of being a PFS character. I've played my Mutagenist a few times now using the same ruleset. And I have to agree with Trip, the approach to VVs is completely different between the two.

The Bomber, I used his 11 AA items (he has Efficient Alchemy) for long term Elixirs. Four Quicksilvers, a Greater Darkvision, an Antiplague, a couple of Antidotes. The other three I kept in reserve in my planning in case somebody in the Party wanted something, but IIRC I just ended up making into Bravo's Brews.

The Versatile Vials I kept for Bombs. Good thing too... the Boss Fight turned out to be 8 rounds long.

The Mutagenist, on the other hand... the Mutagenist, my focus is on buffing him. So Advanced, four Bestials for use in his Collar, a Darkvision, and for the other five it varied a bit. (He has a Familiar and usually uses Extra Alchemy and Extra Vial.) The Mutagenist, I'm doing 3 Vials every 10 minutes for Cheetah's, Eagle-Eye and Bravo's Brew. First round, after the Collar, is usually a Combine Elixirs Numbing & Soothing super-Tonic.

So, both pretty different, but both a lot of fun.

While still fun to play, and stronger in some ways, I do kinda mourn the support Alchemist.

At the end of Outlaws of Alkenstar, my Core Rulebook L10 Bomber was handing out 4 Elixirs of Life per day as emergency healing, one for each of us. He was giving 4 Silvertongue Elixirs to the Bard, 4 Numbing Tonics to the Inventor, and a couple of Life Shot bullets to the Vanguard. And he had enough Batches of Infused Reagents leftover to have 4 Quicksilver Mutagens, 9 Bombs and had three Batches left over for Alchemical Rabbits through Quick Alchemy.

(In case you were wondering, he leaned pretty hard on his Perpetual Infusion Bombs with the Sticky Bomb feat. So much fun.)

Just can't do that anymore. I have a PC2 L12 Alchemist Bomber... he can do 11 Items a day in Advanced Alchemy. His Versatile Vials he saves for Sticky Bombs... and he's needed to.

So yeah, RIP support Alchemist.

Idk what it is, but all my PCs have had crazy bad luck getting poisoned.

Might be the Quicksilver ;)

This is why I make Antidote part of my daily routine for my Bomber. <GRIN>

I'm mixed about seeing more "shut-off switches" for Mutagens. Yes, I think it would lead to greater acceptance of them. On the other hand, I kinda like that Alchemists (including dabblers via Dedication) can have an edge in using them thanks to the Feats,

The 11+ level Energy Mutagens allow you to end them early via an energy breath attack.

The L11 version does 2d6 per 10min of remaining duration, capped 8d6.

You know, I forgot all about Energy Mutagen. Good catch!

Drakeheart is the only Mutagen that can be turned off at will via Final Surge. Otherwise, you need either Revivifying Mutagen (Alchemist Feat L2) or Regurgitate Mutagen (L4) to end a Mutagen (and its Drawback) early.

I'm curious to see if Paizo is going to change the Fury Cocktail Drawback in the Remastered Treasure Vault. FC and Bestial used to be identical... and they got rid of the AC penalty on Bestial. Be interesting to see if they do the same with FC.

Yeah, Drakeheart is really, really solid. Especially since it has a built-in shutdown clause if you feel the Drawback is really biting you.

My favourite experience with Drakeheart was a PFS game back in the Core Rulebook days (when buffing others was so much easier.) My 4th level Bomber made some Drakeheart for a 2nd level Sorcerer. The whole game (it was on Roll20, so very little automation) the guy was double-checking his AC and saying "Nope, missed because of the Mutagen." Mind you, that was an extreme case... I think the guy's AC went from 14 to 19 IIRC.

You've missed my point.

There is no evidence that Mutagens have penalties because they stack with Spells. That is a supposition that you have advanced, repeatedly, with absolutely no evidence.

Never said that, don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm quoting your words.

My issue, since beta, is that Alchemist stuff get massively penaltized for stacking with Spells, but Spells don't get penaltized for stacking with Alchemist stuff.

I didn't say that they have negatives because they stack, I argued that whomever says "it's ok to have penalties since they stack" (like you) is flat out wrong.

"Stacking" should never be a base of balance considerations cause it's two-way.

I'm not actually arguing that it's ok to have penalties because they stack.

I'm simply saying it's ok Mutagens have penalties, period. That what they have to offer is worth the tradeoff.

I've also stated that I like that they stack. Something I appreciate every time I'm lucky enough to be in a party that does stuff like Bless or Courageous Anthem.

And again: Heroism.

Still same duration as your Quick Alchemy, still gives you a +1 to ALL saves, not just Reflex. Still gives you +1 to ALL skills not only the 2 out of 3 you use.

And by midlevels, trivial cost to have low-rank slots/scrolls of it and not waste your few Quick alchemy vials on.

You are, in my opinion, over-simplifying. Particularly when it comes to Alchemists.

Firstly, you don't have to use Quick Alchemy for Mutagens. It's just as easy to use Advanced Alchemy, and that is indeed my preferred route. Advanced Alchemy opens up Collar use (although I don't anymore with my Bomber, because I prefer full duration Quicksilver.) The only advantage of using Quick Alchemy is to keep the Mutagen up at all times, and that's not really necessary. On my Mutagenist, I prefer keeping three Elixirs going and saving Bestial for combat with a Collar. My Bomber saves all his Versatile Vials for Sticky Bombs.

+1 to all skills is, indeed, very nice. However, there is a serious question of whether or not the skill is relevant in an Encounter. For example, my Bomber is only Trained in Athletics and is Str +0. So, he's never actually used Athletics for anything in an Encounter. There are a lot more Skills like that than not, to be honest.

Acrobatics, on the other hand, is Dex based. So, while it's only Trained as well, it's come up a bit more often... usually for Balance actions or an occasional Tumble Through. It's still not enough to invest in a pair of Blast Slippers or Greater Arboreal Boots... and thanks to Quicksilver, I don't have to.

Similar for Stealth, which he is a Master in. Yes, you can invest in a Greater Shadow Rune and then get +1 from Heroism... but again, I don't have to.

There is also the problem of how to add Heroism to your routine. The least costly way is Trick Magic Item, as it's just a Skill Feat. Problem there is that using it is a 3-Action activity, which is pretty harsh. Not bad if you have a chance to pre-buff, but that is too rare for my tastes. These days with Quicksilver it's usually 1 Action (have Quicksilver in hand) or 0 Actions (because it's been less than an hour since the last time he took it.) My Mutagenist uses a Collar because of their Field Benefit.

Superior would be something like Witch Dedication with an Occult or Divine Patron. The feat cost is a bit steeper though, as it's a Class Feat.

Then there's the source of the spell. Yes, 30 gp a pop eventually becomes cheap, but the key word is "eventually." The scrolls themselves don't even become available until 5th level. I might be overly cautious, but I prep for four encounters a day. That's potentially 120 gp per day. It's going to be a while for that to become affordable.There are other expenses to consider. My Mutagenist has fully invested Handwraps of Mighty Blows because of access to Property Runes.

Meanwhile, with just the Class Abilities, my Bomber has been on Quicksilver for multiple Encounters per day for no cost in either gold or feats, since L1.

At the end of the day, voluntarily dropping my hp to the lowest caster levels and dropping fort saves by a prof level for a +1 to hit and some bonus movement is too much for me. If you're good with that, then great. But I hope you can understand where it's a bridge too far for others.

Don't forget the +2 to Reflex Saves and the additional +1 over permanent items to Stealth. (I don't really use Acrobatics, although when I've needed it I can't complain. Thievery not my thing.)

As for it being a bridge too far for some... sure, I get that. Like I said previously, I keep putting my perspective out there because I wholeheartedly disagree with the belief being put out there that it's a bad idea for everyone. It's not.