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I tend to prefer Numbing, as it can absorb more damage over the course of a fight. Juggernaut still has its places though. With a 10 minute duration, Juggernaut is easier to pre-buff with. Plus, it is really great with Fortitude Saves. And finally, Juggernaut is better at absorbing one big hit, and sometimes that's important.
I run Abomination Vaults for some friends. One of them has built a Precision Ranger, who uses an Arbalest with Gravity Weapon. And yeah, it's worked really, really well. I gotta admit, I don't think he has Running Reload. At least, I can't remember him using it. Still though, he generally casts Gravity Weapon before going through the door, and then gets himself into position first round. He never Strikes twice in one round... he'll use his third to reposition if needed, or do stuff like Recall Knowledge. Still, the Arbalest hits like a truck.
Swallow Whole is one reason my PFS Bomber got the World Traveler Boon: I wanted access to Oxygen Oozes.
Tailwind is powerful enough that many people consider a Wand of Tailwind to be a default part of a loadout, so any expansion of it should be limited. I would nerf the duration to 10 minutes for alternative speeds.Yeah, it's very common for a character to spend a single general feat on Trick Magic item and invest in having a trained skill in Arcane or Nature in order to be able to activate a wand, with it having a 1 hr duration its on the verge of too good. Doesn't even need a General Feat. As it has both the General and Skill traits, you can spend a Skill Feat to acquire Trick Magic Item.
I've only played my Bomber once using PC2 rules... the joys of being a PFS character. I've played my Mutagenist a few times now using the same ruleset. And I have to agree with Trip, the approach to VVs is completely different between the two. The Bomber, I used his 11 AA items (he has Efficient Alchemy) for long term Elixirs. Four Quicksilvers, a Greater Darkvision, an Antiplague, a couple of Antidotes. The other three I kept in reserve in my planning in case somebody in the Party wanted something, but IIRC I just ended up making into Bravo's Brews. The Versatile Vials I kept for Bombs. Good thing too... the Boss Fight turned out to be 8 rounds long. The Mutagenist, on the other hand... the Mutagenist, my focus is on buffing him. So Advanced, four Bestials for use in his Collar, a Darkvision, and for the other five it varied a bit. (He has a Familiar and usually uses Extra Alchemy and Extra Vial.) The Mutagenist, I'm doing 3 Vials every 10 minutes for Cheetah's, Eagle-Eye and Bravo's Brew. First round, after the Collar, is usually a Combine Elixirs Numbing & Soothing super-Tonic. So, both pretty different, but both a lot of fun.
While still fun to play, and stronger in some ways, I do kinda mourn the support Alchemist. At the end of Outlaws of Alkenstar, my Core Rulebook L10 Bomber was handing out 4 Elixirs of Life per day as emergency healing, one for each of us. He was giving 4 Silvertongue Elixirs to the Bard, 4 Numbing Tonics to the Inventor, and a couple of Life Shot bullets to the Vanguard. And he had enough Batches of Infused Reagents leftover to have 4 Quicksilver Mutagens, 9 Bombs and had three Batches left over for Alchemical Rabbits through Quick Alchemy. (In case you were wondering, he leaned pretty hard on his Perpetual Infusion Bombs with the Sticky Bomb feat. So much fun.) Just can't do that anymore. I have a PC2 L12 Alchemist Bomber... he can do 11 Items a day in Advanced Alchemy. His Versatile Vials he saves for Sticky Bombs... and he's needed to. So yeah, RIP support Alchemist.
Idk what it is, but all my PCs have had crazy bad luck getting poisoned. Might be the Quicksilver ;) This is why I make Antidote part of my daily routine for my Bomber. <GRIN> I'm mixed about seeing more "shut-off switches" for Mutagens. Yes, I think it would lead to greater acceptance of them. On the other hand, I kinda like that Alchemists (including dabblers via Dedication) can have an edge in using them thanks to the Feats,
You know, I forgot all about Energy Mutagen. Good catch!
Drakeheart is the only Mutagen that can be turned off at will via Final Surge. Otherwise, you need either Revivifying Mutagen (Alchemist Feat L2) or Regurgitate Mutagen (L4) to end a Mutagen (and its Drawback) early. I'm curious to see if Paizo is going to change the Fury Cocktail Drawback in the Remastered Treasure Vault. FC and Bestial used to be identical... and they got rid of the AC penalty on Bestial. Be interesting to see if they do the same with FC.
Yeah, Drakeheart is really, really solid. Especially since it has a built-in shutdown clause if you feel the Drawback is really biting you. My favourite experience with Drakeheart was a PFS game back in the Core Rulebook days (when buffing others was so much easier.) My 4th level Bomber made some Drakeheart for a 2nd level Sorcerer. The whole game (it was on Roll20, so very little automation) the guy was double-checking his AC and saying "Nope, missed because of the Mutagen." Mind you, that was an extreme case... I think the guy's AC went from 14 to 19 IIRC.
Never said that, don't put words in my mouth. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm quoting your words. My issue, since beta, is that Alchemist stuff get massively penaltized for stacking with Spells, but Spells don't get penaltized for stacking with Alchemist stuff.It's from this post.
I'm not actually arguing that it's ok to have penalties because they stack. I'm simply saying it's ok Mutagens have penalties, period. That what they have to offer is worth the tradeoff. I've also stated that I like that they stack. Something I appreciate every time I'm lucky enough to be in a party that does stuff like Bless or Courageous Anthem.
You are, in my opinion, over-simplifying. Particularly when it comes to Alchemists. Firstly, you don't have to use Quick Alchemy for Mutagens. It's just as easy to use Advanced Alchemy, and that is indeed my preferred route. Advanced Alchemy opens up Collar use (although I don't anymore with my Bomber, because I prefer full duration Quicksilver.) The only advantage of using Quick Alchemy is to keep the Mutagen up at all times, and that's not really necessary. On my Mutagenist, I prefer keeping three Elixirs going and saving Bestial for combat with a Collar. My Bomber saves all his Versatile Vials for Sticky Bombs. +1 to all skills is, indeed, very nice. However, there is a serious question of whether or not the skill is relevant in an Encounter. For example, my Bomber is only Trained in Athletics and is Str +0. So, he's never actually used Athletics for anything in an Encounter. There are a lot more Skills like that than not, to be honest. Acrobatics, on the other hand, is Dex based. So, while it's only Trained as well, it's come up a bit more often... usually for Balance actions or an occasional Tumble Through. It's still not enough to invest in a pair of Blast Slippers or Greater Arboreal Boots... and thanks to Quicksilver, I don't have to. Similar for Stealth, which he is a Master in. Yes, you can invest in a Greater Shadow Rune and then get +1 from Heroism... but again, I don't have to. There is also the problem of how to add Heroism to your routine. The least costly way is Trick Magic Item, as it's just a Skill Feat. Problem there is that using it is a 3-Action activity, which is pretty harsh. Not bad if you have a chance to pre-buff, but that is too rare for my tastes. These days with Quicksilver it's usually 1 Action (have Quicksilver in hand) or 0 Actions (because it's been less than an hour since the last time he took it.) My Mutagenist uses a Collar because of their Field Benefit. Superior would be something like Witch Dedication with an Occult or Divine Patron. The feat cost is a bit steeper though, as it's a Class Feat. Then there's the source of the spell. Yes, 30 gp a pop eventually becomes cheap, but the key word is "eventually." The scrolls themselves don't even become available until 5th level. I might be overly cautious, but I prep for four encounters a day. That's potentially 120 gp per day. It's going to be a while for that to become affordable.There are other expenses to consider. My Mutagenist has fully invested Handwraps of Mighty Blows because of access to Property Runes. Meanwhile, with just the Class Abilities, my Bomber has been on Quicksilver for multiple Encounters per day for no cost in either gold or feats, since L1.
At the end of the day, voluntarily dropping my hp to the lowest caster levels and dropping fort saves by a prof level for a +1 to hit and some bonus movement is too much for me. If you're good with that, then great. But I hope you can understand where it's a bridge too far for others. Don't forget the +2 to Reflex Saves and the additional +1 over permanent items to Stealth. (I don't really use Acrobatics, although when I've needed it I can't complain. Thievery not my thing.) As for it being a bridge too far for some... sure, I get that. Like I said previously, I keep putting my perspective out there because I wholeheartedly disagree with the belief being put out there that it's a bad idea for everyone. It's not.
As far as class HD, that part of a total package: taking a mutagen doesn't get you a spell list so it's an apples to orange argument IMO to make a tangent comparing class HD and taking unhealable damage. Like I said: different perspectives. I'm not looking at what my HP are on Quicksilver and saying, well, do I have the power of a full Spellcaster now that I've put my HP to this level? Does everything balance out? I'm simply concerned with "OK, if I make this choice to gain these particular benefits, will my Bomber survive?" And the answer is, across 22 levels of playing a Bomber (1-12, 1-10) yes. I get very concrete benefits that mesh well with my primary concept: I want to throw Bombs at things. For me, it's a complete win.
Things like the skeptics elixir, or the previously mentioned bravos brew which very well represent Paizo's design when it comes to consumables that grant item bonuses. Without a penalty, you are looking at a +1 bump in a single category over a longer duration with maybe an extra effect. +1 over a shorter duration with more impactful extra effects. Many agree that is a good place for consumables, Others argue its to specific depending on what the category is. What I find interesting about the Elixirs is that, generally, they are +1 over a permanent Item, and +2 in a specific area... although it depends on the level. So Bravo's is +1 above Resilient Runes from L2 to L7... simply because Resilients come in at L8. It's +2 against Fear for that same period. Drops to +1 to Fear for L8 & 9, before going back to the +1/+2 paradigm for L10-L13. +1 to Fear again for L14, and then back to +1/+2 for L15-19 (with that nice Bravery Fear save bump.) Eagle-eye is similar, although in general Eagle-Eye also has the advantage of applying to all Perception checks, as opposed to a subset like most permanent items.
You've missed my point. There is no evidence that Mutagens have penalties because they stack with Spells. That is a supposition that you have advanced, repeatedly, with absolutely no evidence. What is known is that Mutagens in 1st Edition introduced the "benefits to an area with penalties to another" mechanic. Why, we don't know. I would speculate that it goes back to the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde story, but that is just speculation on my part. 2nd Edition has continued that mechanic, although toned down (as most Buff mechanics in 2nd Ed have been toned down, as far as I understand.) So unless you come to me and point me to some statement from a developer saying "We did it this way because Mutagens stack with Spells" all you have is a theory about the design that you cannot prove. I was speaking of the reality that Mutagens and Spells stack. And that some of us, like myself, enjoy taking advantage of that fact. Reminds me that I never drank a mutagen yet since PF-2E came out and the only one I might is quicksilver but the hit point damage is so far dumb to me that I can't bare the thought of bringign myself closer to death/downed... I am genuinely curious: is 6 HP/level a deal-breaker for you when choosing your Class? In other words, are Psychic, Sorcerer, Witch & Wizard off the table for you due to their HP? If that's the case, hey, I understand completely... the "squishy spellcaster" trope can be hard to take, especially when Bards, Clerics, Druids and other Spellcasters are 33% tougher. There are those who look at 6 HP/level and tally it up as part of the "power budget" and accept it that way. I have a slightly different perspective: I look at it as proof the Designers believe that Characters can survive the game with just 6 HP a level. Back when I started looking at Quicksilver, I was trying very, very hard to understand why the Designers thought anyone would use that stuff. The -2 Fort Saves? Well, over time, as Fort Saves advanced, that would become less relevant. But 2HP per level? Why would anyone do that to themselves? That's when I realized the correlation. Use Quicksilver, and become a "squishy spellcaster". And I've played Wizards before... my very first Pathfinder 2e character was a Wizard. That character has survived many, many encounters... usually because he's Ranged and a back-line character. Which is exactly the same way I play my Bomber on Quicksilver. Plus, the Bomber has a better AC (the Wizard won't reach +5 Dex until 20th.) I know there are those who believe that, as Alchemical Items are less powerful than Spells, that the tradeoff isn't worth it. And it's true... you don't have to use Mutagens as an Alchemist anymore. You can accept that there are four annoying levels (5,6,13,14) and just play the game with the accuracy of a Thaumaturge. But as I tend to repeat, a lot, there's always more to a Mutagen than just a +1 over a permanent item like a Weapon Potency Rune. And most Mutagens don't have a Drawback as severe as Quicksilver's. It's a tradeoff, and it's a choice. And what I will always argue against is the notion that using one is categorically a bad choice. It's paid off for me far too many times for me to ever accept that.
So, am I correct in thinking that the argument is: as a permanent item (weapon rune, skill item) + Heroism is stronger than just a Mutagen, with no Drawback, therefore Mutagens are simply not worth it? I find that fascinating. I suppose if the choice were either/or, I could understand that. But despite the theoretical argument that Mutagens are penalized because Item Bonuses stack with Status Bonuses... The fact is, they do stack. Which is a very nice thing for those of us, like myself, who appreciate Mutagens. I mean, my Mutagenist is 11th level now. From now on Bestial gives +1 over what any permanent Athletics item can give him. From 15th to 19th, when he catches up Str wise, he'll be the best there is, outside of Status Bonuses. He'll also be better at Striking than anyone other than a Fighter or Gunslinger. So that makes him a pretty decent candidate for Heroism, right? That's the usual strategy: cast Heroism on those who have an edge already, to make that edge even bigger? I'm not fully qualified to determine whether or not Mutagens are good design. But I've gone over the benefits and Drawbacks a lot, and in most cases, I've decided that they're worth it. In the right circumstances. I've used Quicksilver and Bestial in dozens of encounters. I've never regretted it. I've never had anyone take me up on it, but Cognitive on Casters can be a good fit. Bards and Swashbucklers love Silvertongue, as long as they aren't big into Recall Knowledge. Frontliners tend to still like Juggernaut, even though Numbing Tonic has ate its lunch a bit. Serene is the only one that I don't think has a niche in Encounters, although I suppose if you knew you were going up against a lot of Mental effects, maybe. Outside of Encounters... well, I don't think anyone can deny how useful Mutagens are outside of Encounters. I suppose this is a long-winded way of stating: using Mutagens is a choice. In my experience, when used on the right build, it's a choice that has paid off many, many times. I can't say whether it's good design, but it's effective, it's fun, and I'm glad the option is there.
a)the fort and hp penalty basically gives you caster defences (1 good save, 2 bad, 6 hp) on a martial character. A) Like the above poster said, if you're using Quicksilver, you're probably ranged (bombers love Quicksilver, although being precise with a bomb is not THAT big of a DPS increase). If you're a melee alchemist, apart from some very specific dex builds that make you jump through hoops, you'll probably get a different mutagen. Exactly. My Bombers use Quicksilver regularly... and you'd be surprised how many encounters end with them only taking Quicksilver damage. Ranged is a very potent defense in and of itself, in my experience. There have been exceptions, of course... I remember one particular Outlaws of Alkenstar encounter where things were cramped and my Bomber was focused on. But overall, being Ranged is a lifesaver. My Mutagenist uses Bestial.
I have absolutely used Quicksilver, and failed a Fort save I'd have otherwise passed, and been downed because of that missing HP. That sucked enough to swear off the stuff, and it was only the discovery of the Combine double that had me try it again.Whereas I can't count the times where I've succeeded because of what Quicksilver has to offer. I almost always know... man, do I love Modifiers Matter on Foundry. But I've lost track. Have there been times when the Drawback has bit me? Absolutely... but those occasions are rare compared to the times where it helped me. My issue, since beta, is that Alchemist stuff get massively penaltized for stacking with Spells, but Spells don't get penaltized for stacking with Alchemist stuff. That's an interesting way to look at it. I have to say, I've never seen it that way. I've always thought that Mutagens were just a natural evolution from how they worked in 1st Edition. You get something for a cost. The PF2 Mutagens are both more formalized (different formulae for different effect) and more flexible (you don't need a Discovery to keep various Mutagens around for various purposes) and, of course, other people can actually use Mutagens now, not just Alchemists.I honestly don't think the penalties are because they stack with Status Bonuses. For one thing, there are plenty of non-Mutagen Elixirs that stack, but have no penalties. (My two favourites: Bravo's Brews and Eagle-Eye Elixirs.) I also have no idea how you could change things to penalize Spells for stacking with Mutagens. Unlike Mutagens, Spells in Pathfinder have never come with Drawbacks. I can't imagine how big of an uproar there'd be were such a thing be implemented somehow.
6. You make the downside a Item penalty, a penalty that is used practically nowhere else (so we keep forgetting about them). You're mistaken here, btw. Take a closer look... Mutagens generally have Untyped penalties. They're meant to stack with everything. Ah, a discussion on Mutagen design! It must be my lucky day. Personally, I love, love, love Mutagens... but you have to match the right Mutagen to the right Class. Let's look at my personal favourite: Quicksilver. Quicksilver is probably the most disparaged Mutagen due to its Drawbacks... and the Drawbacks are substantial, I agree. Where I disagree is whether they're too harsh. For one thing, I see a lot of "you're tanking your fort save" comments. I disagree. From levels 1-8 a lot of Classes are only Trained in Fort Saves. Which is the same level of Fort Save of an Alchemist on Quicksilver. Levels 9-10 are a bit harsh... lowest Fort Saves in the game, unfortunately. But then you hit 11th level, and you end up with Expert Fort saves with a Success->Crit Success bump built in. 10.3 Classes have Expert Fort saves from 11-20, barring Canny Acumen investment... pretty decent company, IMHO. Only the Rogue gets the same Bump. As for the damage, well, it takes you from an 8 HP/level Class to a 6 HP/level. So, the same as Psychics, Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards. However do they survive? </sarcasm>. If you're using Quicksilver, you should be Ranged. Unless you're a Dex based Fighter, I suppose. Or maybe a Raging Thrower Barbarian. Going from a 10 HP to 8 HP is ok... I play a Melee Mutagenist, after all, and survive just fine. (12 to 10 would be easy.) And what do you get in return? Well, there's that Item Bonus to Dex Based Strikes. Everybody knows that one. There's the Speed bonus. Don't hear as much about that one. Most folks dismiss it because, well, Tailwind wands. I tend to look at it differently... I'm using Quicksilver. I don't need to invest in Trick Magic Item. Besides, my Bomber is 12th level now. Quicksilver is faster. There's the Item Bonus to Acrobatics, Stealth & Thievery. Which are, generally, just better than alternatives. They come in earlier, they're +1 stronger, they apply to all uses of the Skill instead of just a subset... you get the picture. And finally, there's the bonus to Reflex Saves. I almost never hear people discussing that one. I mean, it's +2 better than anything else for 11 out of 20 levels. The rest of the time it's +1.
Forget tying to use them in Soceity Play. You & I have vastly different experiences with Mutagens and Society Play. Especially since Remaster. Cognitive Mutagen basically steals the show in Society Play. +X Bonus to any Recall Knowledge Skill. Plus, you cannot Crit Fail the check. There's always a lot of RK checks in every Scenario. And that's just levels 1-10. Level 11+, Greater Cognitive comes into play, along with being able to customize it on the spot with Quick Alchemy. Last time I played my Bomber, we ran into a Void Energy effect. So I whipped up at QA Greater Cognitive, and informed the GM I was now trained in Void Energy Lore for then next 10 minutes. With a +5 Int Bonus and a +3 Item Bonus, plus I could not Crit Fail. The entire table was laughing with glee at that one. Funnily enough, as much as I hate the duration nerf of Quick Alchemy'd Elixirs, the change has actually increased the popularity of Mutagens in the Society games I've played and run. People seem to be more ok with Drawbacks if they only last ten minutes, it seems.
Spiderfoot Brew used to be Uncommon, IIRC. It originally appeared in the Fumbus comic from Dark Horse, then it was reprinted in Treasure Vault.
I find it kinda interesting. I was looking at it for unrelated reasons just yesterday. If you buy a Sturdy Shield and upgrade it to L10, the Shield Ally ability will keep it just as good as a fully upgraded Sturdy Shield. Not bad. If you were planning on investing in your Sturdy Shield, +1 hardness is always welcome. Finally, if you liked some of the specialty shields, the Ally lets you make it a decent blocker (not quite as good as a Sturdy Shield) for free. Nice.
One of my favourite examples of game concepts combining in unexpected ways with "the real world" (or stuff like kingdom building) is the Bottled Monstrosity Worm Vial. This thing can create a 40' tunnel through solid rock in two Actions. The applications in construction are enormous. I consider it to be the biggest argument against Alchemists being able to use Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy to create Bottled Monstrosities.
Our forever GM wanted to try 2nd Edition, so we agreed... and ported over our party of L12 D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder 2e. We enjoyed it, so we decided to stick with it. Then I decided to try out Pathfinder Society 2e play. Pathfinder has been my main hobby ever since.
When I wrote my Alchemical Items guide, I decided to go with a common sense approach. If it's a food item, and it's Alchemical, it counts as an Alchemical Food. So, IMHO, Bravo's Brew is the first Alchemical Food (from Core Rulebook), as it it has the line "This Flask of foaming beer. So, I count the following as Alchemical Foods (outside of Treasure Vault and the Tian Xia Character Guide.):
I find myself thinking that the reason it ultimately will never happen is that a 15th level Runelord, having indulged the Sin of Greed for so, so long... would just find the rate of return too low.
I'd be really curious to hear details of your Build. Fighter/Alchemist can go a lot of different ways.
In 2 years and 2 weeks, you could assemble 10 wands. Using those alone, you could earn 70gp per day which is over 25,000gp per year. Those numbers don't seem very boring for an hour of "work" per day, then a few minutes once you have the wands. That's still over two years of using every 7th and 8th level slot you have, plus Drain Bonded Item, plus however many Wands you have at that point. You're really putting your life on hold for over two years, to reach a point where you can earn 25,000 gp per year for free.
RAW? Nothing. On a practical basis? Time. Chrysopoetic Curse is a 7th Rank Spell, meaning a Wand of Chrysopoetic Curse is a 15th Level item costing 6,500 gp. As the Curse leaves behind 2d6 gp worth of gold flakes and dust (unless the target Critically Succeeded on the Saving Throw), at an average of 7 gp per Casting you would need to cast the Curse 929 times to afford a Wand. At 15th level you could cast the Spell 8 times a day with Drain Bonded Item. So, that's 116 days, with you devoting all your Rank 7 and Rank 8 spellslots, plus your use of Drain Bonded Item, every day. Is it doable? Yes. Seems like a really boring way to live your life though.
The benefit is that you can be casting the Composition Cantrip while doing any Exploration Activity. So you don't have to be using Repeat a Spell... You can do this while using Defend, or Search, or even Avoid Notice (although I wouldn't blame any GM for disallowing that one.)
Rune of Observation is a bit limited in that you have to be able to see where you place the sensor. But after that? For long-term surveillance there's nothing like it. My 15th level Wizard, his group needed to get information out of a base commander. He and the party Rogue snuck into the base, got to his office, set the sensor above the desk, and retreated to a safe spot roughly 500' away. And proceeded to watch the commander sitting at his desk, going about his day, for the rest of the day. Reports, personnel lists, all kind of things were open on that desk while my Wizard watched. And as he had a +5 Intelligence, the GM ruled that he could easily remember everything he could see. It was fantastic.
My money's on them getting it from ... PFS feedback...As a reminder, PFS reports include nothing about characters, not even their level. Well, yes, there's a name. I GM PFS2e. When you report, it's Character Name, Faction, PFS Player # and Character #. Class is never mentioned in the Reporting. Sign-up sheets ask for it because it helps the GMs prep for the games.
I have a Level 15 Wizard in a friend's homebrew campaign. Started him at Level 12... we brought the campaign over from D&D 3.5 at that level (the GM wanted to try Pathfinder, and, well, keeping the GM happy is a priority when he's been running for 10+ years.) I've been giving a lot of thought to playing a Wizard in PFS. Kinda based on my other Wizard, but making some different choices. For one thing, I went Rogue Dedication with the other guy. I think I'd like to go straight Wizard this time. One thing I've noticed: For the early levels, I think Wizards have the edge on Cantrips. For the first few levels Cantrips are, IMHO, pretty important. Any Wizard can, of course, swap out their Prepared Cantrips every day. They share that capability with the Witch. The Sorcerer can't do that, at least not until later levels (when they're able to rely more on Spell Slots anyways.) I mean, I like Eat Fire... Fire damage is common, it's a Cantrip that uses a Reaction (and a 1st level Wizard doesn't have a lot of uses for Reactions, usually), it has a fun secondary effect... what's not to like? Still though, if I know I'm going to be facing the zombie master, I'd rather slot something else. By a strict reading, Spell Substitution doesn't work with Cantrips, as it specifies spell slots... but really, I think it's not a big stretch for the Thesis that enables swapping prepared spells to be able to swap a prepared Cantrip. Spell Blending? While yes, it doesn't work to get high level slots for a while, you can still trade any slot to prepare two additional Cantrips that day. I can see value in the early levels for doing that. Staff Nexus: While I agree with everyone who thinks that the whole "spend a 1st Rank slot to charge a single 1st Rank spell from the Staff" is pointless... it still will give an additional Cantrip (and you don't have to charge the Staff for that.) The other two Theses don't really help in that way. I'm not a big Familiar fan, so I've never really examined what Improved Familiar Attunement really gives you. I think though, that I'm going to stick with Experimental Spellshaping. I like starting with Reach Spell (going to go Human and grab Spellbook Prodigy as well.) My 15th level guy has gotten a lot of use out being able to swap between Spellshaping Feats. So that'll be fun at 4th. So I'm looking at going Ars Magica, and I think it will work out quite well. Command is a fun School spell. Never noticed before that it shuts down Reactions until the Command is obeyed. Kinda cool. One thing I do like about the new Schools over the old: the old Schools didn't give you free Spells in your Spellbook. The new ones do. I can appreciate that. Third action, I have some options. Move, as always. Cast Shield if I prep it. (I do like Shield.) If I'm stuck close to the action, Protective Wards is there. Want to keep my distance? Reach Spell. Anyways, I'm rambling.
Alchemist/Investigator is a pretty insanely strong Dual Class. Especially if you go with Alchemical Sciences Investigator, as that has some somewhat system-breaking interactions between the Alchemist's regenerating Versatile Vials and the Investigator's Quick Tincture ability.
Ok, this sounds decent. A Munitions Crafter without access to normal firearm supplies can make 16 Black Powder rounds a day from 1st level. That's plenty for a single day... heck, 12 would probably be more than enough. Then options increase with level, allowing the use of Alchemical Ammunition in more circumstances. I'm ok with that. The Alchemical Ammos are neat; somebody should be using them. Not like Alchemists are going to. (IMHO, any Alchemist going Ranged should simply focus on Bombs.) I'm unsure of Munitions Machinist. Adding in Quick Alchemy seems sure to disrupt a Gunslingers action economy.
My big question is: Does Munitions Crafter have a larger batch size for Level 0 Black Powder rounds? If not, making 4 pieces of ammo at first, ramping up to 14 at twentieth... it's in an odd place.
Not a buff, but I absolutely loved Blink Charge on my Warpriest. Fantastic spell. Usually prepared two a day once I had the L5 slots available.
I started playing PFS games online during the Pandemic. I've really enjoyed the experience, for a number of reasons. 1) It's hard to get into a long running campaign. I'm lucky... I've been in two so far. 2) I got into my second long running group (we played through Extinction Curse and Outlaws of Alkenstar over a couple of years) because I met the GM through online PFS play. 3) Fitting in a 4-5 hour gaming session every now and then has been relatively painless. 4) I usually enjoy the plotlines. 5) I've "met" some genuinely imaginative, out of the box players. PFS tends to encourage trying out different concepts, ones that might not hold up over a long campaign but are really, really fun. 6) I enjoy GM'ing, and PFS Scenarios fit my GM'ing style quite well. I like bringing life to NPCs, but I suck at coming up with plots. Making homebrew campaigns is not for me. I owe a lot to online PFS. I credit it with contributing significantly to my continued sanity during the height of the Covid pandemic. Edited to add: While I realize it can contribute to "roll play", I like that PFS puts a lot of emphasis on Skill Checks and Recall Knowledge Checks. You don't want to neglect either Combat or Out of Combat abilities, no matter what you're playing, because both will definitely come up.
He was known to keep greater elemental ammo in his gun when not in combat (thanks to Munitions Machinist), so he could start a fight with activating that and then Vital Shot, which is now doing 2 kinds of persistent damage on top of the hit (3 if he crits since it was a greater flaming gun, naturally). This reminds me that we could use some clarification on Alchemical Ammunition. Magical Ammo doesn't apply Property Runes, but the rules for Alchemical are less clear. Played alongside a Vanguard through Outlaws of Alkenstar. They fit quite well into our group (Bomber Alchemist (me), Armor Inventor, and a Bard filled out the rest of the group.)
You are assuming that you try to counteract something of the level exactly when you get the item or lower. No, I'm looking at the Counteract Level of an at-level threat over the course of those four levels. Since Elixirs have a 4-6 level gap in between them (4, 8, 12, 18), you more often than not, require a critical success to counteract effects using the elixirs, which means a nat 20. How do you figure? A simple success handles a Counteract Level of up to your Counteract Level +1, which you don't seem to be taking into account. A Critical Success is necessary for a Counteract Level of +2 or +3.
As I've written before, there are exactly five levels, out of twenty, where you end up needing a Nat 20 to handle an at-level effect. With those Elixirs, anyways. Level 11, one of the problem ones, is one where Contagion Metabolizer is actually at its best, for example. So, against an at-level effect, you run into serious problems three levels after you pick up the formula, not one. The worst is, as previously mentioned, Greater, as it reaches that point three levels before Major lands at level 18. If I get a Lesser at L4, I can expect my odds to decrease along the way... the roll needed will be somewhere between 12 to 16 at High DC from Character Levels 4-6. But it's still not a mandatory Nat 20. That's Character Level 7, with things resetting with Moderate at L8. Where I find Supreme Invigorating Elixir fascinating is that it actually increases your Counteract Level by 1. That's strong. To Counteract an at-level effect on a failure? Very nice. Counteract a (normal) CL+2 on a simple success? That can handle a Char Level +4 Boss.
Though I do believe Shove technically does let you choose a direction, As long as the creature ends up further away. That's always been my interpretation. Away on a diagonal is still away (as one example.)
No, the High DC at level 4 is 21 (20 at level 3). And High DC is what you generally face, spellcasters often even get closer to Extreme DC. As pointed above, Caster Enemies usually use at least the High DC for their abilities. For their more signature abilities that often come with the debilitating effects, they sometimes even use the Extreme DC.Your points are well taken; however, it doesn't change my point. It was claimed: So, in 90% of the cases, the Item level of the specific elixirs requires you to roll nat20s to counteract. This is absolutely not the case. All Easytools Monsters isn't quite as comprehensive as it once was, but it's still a great starting point for most general trends. The Modal (or most common) Spell DC per Creature Level matches the High DC from GM Core. So, add +2 to all my numbers from my previous post. Rolls of 11+ or 14+ are not the same as needing a Nat 20 90% of the time. Should Extreme DCs come into play, 15-16+, or 19-20. Still not Nat 20 90% of the time, especially as the Extreme DCs aren't supposed to be common until L15+... and even then, they're not especially common if All Easytools can be believed. Now, is the capability provided by the Invigorating Elixir feat superior? Absolutely, as it should be. Investing three (possibly four, if you get both versions of Improved Invigorating Elixir) Class Feats should be considerably more potent than baseline Alchemical Items. Still, having capability of removing conditions, even on a roll of 14+, basically for free... this is not a bad thing, in my opinion. Not something to be using on a regular basis, but good to have in the toolkit in case of emergency. Back in the Core Rulebook era, my Bomber got hit with a Clumsy 2 condition, with a duration of 1 minute. Basically, a really annoying full fight Debuff. So I took a chance, spent a Batch on a Sinew-Shock Serum... and it worked. Made all the difference in that fight, and played really well into my Class Fantasy for Alchemist... the right tool, at the right time, always. On a different topic... Yeah, the healing from a Versatile Vial is completely underwhelming, even if it can be Ranged with no chance of missing. Only real use case, in Encounter Mode, is if you need to stabilize someone and you're out of better options. Even out of Encounter Mode, adding 1 or 2 d6 to your Treat Wounds routine is pretty meh. The only point where it gets interesting, is when Chirurgeons get their Advanced Vial ability at 11th. Being able to heal to half at a rate of 40d6 hp (avg 140) per minute, for free, has a use case. I've been in situations where time between encounters is at a premium. Going to half for no resources that quickly... there've been times I would've liked that. At 12th level, with Greater VVs, it goes up to 60d6 per minute, or averaging 210. Go to half with VVs, then throw in a Soothing Tonic to add in 50 hp over half in a just another minute... that's a lot of healing in a very short period of time. Definitely not your usual set of circumstances, but I still find it interesting that the capacity is there.
So, in 90% of the cases, the Item level of the specific elixirs requires you to roll nat20s to counteract. It's not quite that bad. Bottled Catharsis and its counterpart, Surging Serum, got their mechanics smoothed out a bit over their APG versions, Focus Cathartic and Sinew-Shock Serum with the addition of an 8th level version. 2nd Level: Counteract Level 1, Check Modifier +6, can Counteract anything with a CL of 1 or 2 on a success. Typical DC of a CL1 effect is 15, meaning a 9 or better works. CL2 is 18, so a 12 would be needed. 4th Level: CL 2, CM +8. Counteracts CL2 or 3 on a success. CL2 still 18, so 10+. CL3 DC 20, so again 12+. 8th level: CL 4, CM +14. CL4 or 5 on a success. CL 4, DC 23, so 9+. CL 5, DC 26, 12+. 12th level: CL 6, CM +19. CL 6 or 7 on a success. CL 6 DC is 28, so 9+; CL 7 DC 31, so 12+. Now, by this pattern, there really ought to be a 16th level version. There isn't. So, until L18, if you want to Counteract a L8 Condition, you need a Crit Success with this serum... which means a Nat 20. 18th level: CL 9, CM +28. CL 9 or 10 on a success. CL 9 is DC 36, so an 8+ will work. DC for CL10 is 39, so 11+. So really, if you can use the at-level stuff, this isn't too bad. There are awkward levels, of course, because CLs increase on odd levels, and this Serum increases on even ones. So 7th and 11th levels, if you need to Counteract a CL 4 or CL 6, you'll need Nat 20s. It's worst for levels 15-17... yes, in theory, Greater Bottled Catharsis can Counteract CLs 8 or 9, but again, Nat 20s. Invigorating Elixir will generally be better, because the Class DC - 10 formula will almost always be better, and (Class Level / 2, Round Up) for Counteract Level increases on the odd levels. Contagion Metabolizer, the general anti-Disease/anti-Poison Elixir, is a bit more awkward. It only has three Tiers, not five... but its Counteract Level is (Item Level/2 round up), not (Item Level/2). So the L5 version has CL3, meaning it works on a success for CLs 3 & 4... which generally will handle up to Level 9 when CL 5 shows up. The +11 check means a success on 9 (CL3) or 12 (CL4) before starting to need Nat 20s for CL5 at Levels 9 & 10. Level 11, things start to work as expected again with Moderate. CL 6 and 7 on a Success, +19 on the roll is as strong as the L12 Bottled Catharsis... so rolls of 9 or 12 again. Gets awkward at 15th, just like Bottled Catharsis, but stays so for an additional level, because Greater Contagion Metabolizer is L19. The advantage there being, Contagion Metabolizer finishes with a CL of 10, which makes CL 9 Counteracted on a Failed roll. The Modifier (+30) is also stronger.
I've currently only played my 10th Level Mutagenist under the PC2 rules. I'm looking forward to playing my 11th level Bomber later this month (if I can grab a spot when 6-09, The Power of Legends drops.) So, Norm Waglan, my Mutagenist, has Int +5 but doesn't have Efficient Alchemy. So, 9 Advanced Alchemy Items a day. He also has an Alchemical Familiar, and usually will take Extra Alchemy & Extra Vial. 4 doses of Bestial Mutagen.
He has 7 regenerating Versatile Vials, with an additional once-per-day one from Jeeves (his familiar.) I've only played him twice. However, the following regimen has worked quite well:
I'm not a huge fan of the "drink your regen limit every ten minutes" strategy, but I've gotta admit, it's effective. Roll Initiative: Hit the Collar, take a point of Piercing, gain 10 temp HP from the Bestial.
Last game, was able to pre Buff, which I find pretty rare usually. So, used the one-a-day to add in Chromatic Jellyfish Oil and burnt the final two Versatile Vials on Rainbow Vinegar and Iron Wine. Still spent the first round on Soothing & Numbing.
Advanced Alchemy: During your daily preparations, you spend some time to create alchemical items that can be used over the course of the day. You don't need to attempt a Crafting check to do this, you can use an alchemist's toolkit instead of an alchemist's lab, and you ignore both the number of days typically required to create the items and any alchemical raw materials requirements. You can Craft a number of alchemical items up to 4 + your Intelligence modifier. Each item must be in your formula book, have an item level equal to or lower than your level, and have the consumable trait. These items have the infused trait and remain potent for 24 hours or until your next daily preparations, whichever comes first. So a Wizard with a Spellbook can prepare their Spells. An Alchemist without either a Toolkit or a Lab cannot do any Alchemy, period, even with a Formula Book. Still, I don't think it's much of a hassle, barring a scenario like the postulated (PCs are imprisoned without gear.) Worst case, if the Alchemist can get ahold of the right tools, they can make a Toolkit in two days with a roll of 7+.
Welcome to the new reality of the Remastered Alchemist. ;P That's not the Remastered Alchemist... that was the Core Rulebook Alchemist. Kinda. I played a Core Rulebook Bomber Alchemist in Outlaws of Alkenstar. At the end, I was doing the following:
And that was on top of everything I made for my Bomber's personal use... and he never ran out. There were a couple of spare Batches in there for Alchemical rabbits too. Simply can't do that anymore. My PFS Bomber (11th level) is going to need his Versatile Vials for Sticky Bombs, and at 11 Advanced Alchemy items a day, he's not going to be doing a lot of support. Alchemical rabbits though, I admit that PC2 Alchemist will be better at that. It's simply going to be a question of "can I afford to give up Offense to do this?"
I played a Core Rulebook Warpriest through Extinction Curse... had a blast doing so. Was DPS secondary? Yeah, but it also wasn't nothing. There were a number of times when it was my guy's rapier that put something down, and that's what really counts in the end, right? I did take the main Medicine Feats... heck, I spent a General Feat to get them faster. I will say, on paper, I like the Player Core Warpriest even more than I liked the Core Rulebook one. Raise Symbol? I would've loved Raise Symbol for my guy's build.
Where things are still a bit unclear with Toxicologists is whether or not their Poisons can inflict conditions on the immune, or if it's simply a damage type swap. Field Benefit:You can apply an injury poison you’re holding to a weapon or piece of ammunition you’re wielding as a single action, rather than as a 2-action activity. In addition, you flexibly mix acidic and poisonous alchemical compounds. Your infused poisons can affect creatures immune to poison. A creature takes acid damage instead of poison damage from your infused poisons if either the creature is immune to poison or that would be more detrimental to the creature (as determined by the GM). Typically, this benefit applies when the creature has an immunity, resistance, or weakness to one of the damage types. There has always been support for Immunity not applying when the damage type doesn't match the Trait to which Immunity applies (ie, having a different damage type works around Immunity): However, some complex effects might have parts that affect you even if you're immune to one of the effect's traits; for instance, a spell that deals both fire and acid damage can still deal acid damage to you even if you're immune to fire. So, it's hard to say. My personal interpretation is that a 1st level Toxicologist can now do Acid damage to a Skeleton with Giant Centipede Venom, but the Skeleton won't be fatigued or clumsy if the Poison advances past Stage 1. Still a major improvement, but not quite as good as it would be if Tox could hit Immune creatures with the major Debuff poisons. Now, the Field Benefit completely avoiding Poison Resistance is just a complete win. And who knows, maybe some time a Tox will encounter something Weak to Acid and that will be a fun win too.
Yes, I believe that the general consensus matches your analysis, as far as poisons created with Quick Alchemy - Create Consumable goes. Note that this allows you to poison up weapons in advance of a fight, if you use things like Doubling Rings or a Thrower's Bandolier.
As you've said you're going to game master, I would focus on getting GM Core and Player Core. Monster Core is great, but as Easl mentions above you can search monsters on Nethys easily for free. When finances allow, I'd grab Monster Core and Player Core 2, and with that you're pretty much set.
Errata gets incorporated when a book gets reprinted. At that time the PDF will be updated for no additional cost for those who own an earlier edition in that format.
But I consider it secondary to the fact that alchs are just not as good at hitting things with a weapon without getting high on their own supply - i.e., needing to use a mutagen to just keep up with a dedicated martial's to-hit bonus. It goes a bit further than "keeping up". An Alchemist's Key Ability Score is Intelligence. So, the best point of comparison is a similar Martial, like a Thaumaturge. Without one of the four Accuracy enhancing Mutagens (Bestial, Fury Cocktails, Quicksilver, War Blood) an Alchemist will be behind a Thaumaturge for four levels: 5, 6, 13 & 14. The deficit is a -2. A Bomb using Alchemist would additionally be -1 behind at 2, 10 & 16, as Bombs get their Accuracy boost one level behind Runes. With such a Mutagen, the Alchemist still remains behind at some of those levels... but the deficit is cut in half to -1. Compared to a Thaumaturge, the Mutagen using Alchemist has the following Accuracies: -1: 5, 6, 13 & 14
So, behind for four levels, even for three, and ahead for thirteen. Compared to a Rogue, which has KAS Dex:
So, behind for six, even for seven and ahead for seven. So you don't have to use a Mutagen. But I highly recommend it. I have an 11th Level Bomber and a 10th level Mutagenist in PFS. I also played a Bomber for ten levels through Outlaws of Alkenstar. Both the Bombers use (or used) Quicksilver all the time. The Mutagenist uses Bestial. It's been great. |
