ottdmk's page

I started playing PFS games online during the Pandemic. I've really enjoyed the experience, for a number of reasons.

1) It's hard to get into a long running campaign. I'm lucky... I've been in two so far.

2) I got into my second long running group (we played through Extinction Curse and Outlaws of Alkenstar over a couple of years) because I met the GM through online PFS play.

3) Fitting in a 4-5 hour gaming session every now and then has been relatively painless.

4) I usually enjoy the plotlines.

5) I've "met" some genuinely imaginative, out of the box players. PFS tends to encourage trying out different concepts, ones that might not hold up over a long campaign but are really, really fun.

6) I enjoy GM'ing, and PFS Scenarios fit my GM'ing style quite well. I like bringing life to NPCs, but I suck at coming up with plots. Making homebrew campaigns is not for me.

I owe a lot to online PFS. I credit it with contributing significantly to my continued sanity during the height of the Covid pandemic.

Edited to add: While I realize it can contribute to "roll play", I like that PFS puts a lot of emphasis on Skill Checks and Recall Knowledge Checks. You don't want to neglect either Combat or Out of Combat abilities, no matter what you're playing, because both will definitely come up.

He was known to keep greater elemental ammo in his gun when not in combat (thanks to Munitions Machinist), so he could start a fight with activating that and then Vital Shot, which is now doing 2 kinds of persistent damage on top of the hit (3 if he crits since it was a greater flaming gun, naturally).

This reminds me that we could use some clarification on Alchemical Ammunition. Magical Ammo doesn't apply Property Runes, but the rules for Alchemical are less clear.

Played alongside a Vanguard through Outlaws of Alkenstar. They fit quite well into our group (Bomber Alchemist (me), Armor Inventor, and a Bard filled out the rest of the group.)

You are assuming that you try to counteract something of the level exactly when you get the item or lower.

No, I'm looking at the Counteract Level of an at-level threat over the course of those four levels.

Since Elixirs have a 4-6 level gap in between them (4, 8, 12, 18), you more often than not, require a critical success to counteract effects using the elixirs, which means a nat 20.

How do you figure?

A simple success handles a Counteract Level of up to your Counteract Level +1, which you don't seem to be taking into account. A Critical Success is necessary for a Counteract Level of +2 or +3.

Using the levels provided by the OP as a comparisson, at level 11, your rank 4 counteract, to counteract something of even equal level, let alone a higher level threat, will need a nat 20 to succeed.

Sure, in the very very slight chance that you happen upon the danger at the exact level you get the recipe, the odds are better, but even 1 level afterwards, your chances go from "unlikely but possible" to "need a nat 20".

As I've written before, there are exactly five levels, out of twenty, where you end up needing a Nat 20 to handle an at-level effect. With those Elixirs, anyways. Level 11, one of the problem ones, is one where Contagion Metabolizer is actually at its best, for example.

So, against an at-level effect, you run into serious problems three levels after you pick up the formula, not one. The worst is, as previously mentioned, Greater, as it reaches that point three levels before Major lands at level 18.

If I get a Lesser at L4, I can expect my odds to decrease along the way... the roll needed will be somewhere between 12 to 16 at High DC from Character Levels 4-6. But it's still not a mandatory Nat 20. That's Character Level 7, with things resetting with Moderate at L8.

Where I find Supreme Invigorating Elixir fascinating is that it actually increases your Counteract Level by 1. That's strong. To Counteract an at-level effect on a failure? Very nice. Counteract a (normal) CL+2 on a simple success? That can handle a Char Level +4 Boss.

Though I do believe Shove technically does let you choose a direction, As long as the creature ends up further away.

That's always been my interpretation. Away on a diagonal is still away (as one example.)

No, the High DC at level 4 is 21 (20 at level 3). And High DC is what you generally face, spellcasters often even get closer to Extreme DC.

As pointed above, Caster Enemies usually use at least the High DC for their abilities. For their more signature abilities that often come with the debilitating effects, they sometimes even use the Extreme DC.

So, in 90% of the cases, the Item level of the specific elixirs requires you to roll nat20s to counteract.

This is absolutely not the case.

All Easytools Monsters isn't quite as comprehensive as it once was, but it's still a great starting point for most general trends. The Modal (or most common) Spell DC per Creature Level matches the High DC from GM Core. So, add +2 to all my numbers from my previous post.

Rolls of 11+ or 14+ are not the same as needing a Nat 20 90% of the time. Should Extreme DCs come into play, 15-16+, or 19-20. Still not Nat 20 90% of the time, especially as the Extreme DCs aren't supposed to be common until L15+... and even then, they're not especially common if All Easytools can be believed.

Now, is the capability provided by the Invigorating Elixir feat superior? Absolutely, as it should be. Investing three (possibly four, if you get both versions of Improved Invigorating Elixir) Class Feats should be considerably more potent than baseline Alchemical Items.

Still, having capability of removing conditions, even on a roll of 14+, basically for free... this is not a bad thing, in my opinion. Not something to be using on a regular basis, but good to have in the toolkit in case of emergency.

Back in the Core Rulebook era, my Bomber got hit with a Clumsy 2 condition, with a duration of 1 minute. Basically, a really annoying full fight Debuff. So I took a chance, spent a Batch on a Sinew-Shock Serum... and it worked. Made all the difference in that fight, and played really well into my Class Fantasy for Alchemist... the right tool, at the right time, always.

On a different topic...

Yeah, the healing from a Versatile Vial is completely underwhelming, even if it can be Ranged with no chance of missing. Only real use case, in Encounter Mode, is if you need to stabilize someone and you're out of better options.

Even out of Encounter Mode, adding 1 or 2 d6 to your Treat Wounds routine is pretty meh.

The only point where it gets interesting, is when Chirurgeons get their Advanced Vial ability at 11th.

Being able to heal to half at a rate of 40d6 hp (avg 140) per minute, for free, has a use case. I've been in situations where time between encounters is at a premium. Going to half for no resources that quickly... there've been times I would've liked that. At 12th level, with Greater VVs, it goes up to 60d6 per minute, or averaging 210.

Go to half with VVs, then throw in a Soothing Tonic to add in 50 hp over half in a just another minute... that's a lot of healing in a very short period of time.

Definitely not your usual set of circumstances, but I still find it interesting that the capacity is there.

So, in 90% of the cases, the Item level of the specific elixirs requires you to roll nat20s to counteract.

It's not quite that bad.

Bottled Catharsis and its counterpart, Surging Serum, got their mechanics smoothed out a bit over their APG versions, Focus Cathartic and Sinew-Shock Serum with the addition of an 8th level version.

2nd Level: Counteract Level 1, Check Modifier +6, can Counteract anything with a CL of 1 or 2 on a success. Typical DC of a CL1 effect is 15, meaning a 9 or better works. CL2 is 18, so a 12 would be needed.

4th Level: CL 2, CM +8. Counteracts CL2 or 3 on a success. CL2 still 18, so 10+. CL3 DC 20, so again 12+.

8th level: CL 4, CM +14. CL4 or 5 on a success. CL 4, DC 23, so 9+. CL 5, DC 26, 12+.

12th level: CL 6, CM +19. CL 6 or 7 on a success. CL 6 DC is 28, so 9+; CL 7 DC 31, so 12+.

Now, by this pattern, there really ought to be a 16th level version. There isn't. So, until L18, if you want to Counteract a L8 Condition, you need a Crit Success with this serum... which means a Nat 20.

18th level: CL 9, CM +28. CL 9 or 10 on a success. CL 9 is DC 36, so an 8+ will work. DC for CL10 is 39, so 11+.

So really, if you can use the at-level stuff, this isn't too bad. There are awkward levels, of course, because CLs increase on odd levels, and this Serum increases on even ones. So 7th and 11th levels, if you need to Counteract a CL 4 or CL 6, you'll need Nat 20s. It's worst for levels 15-17... yes, in theory, Greater Bottled Catharsis can Counteract CLs 8 or 9, but again, Nat 20s.

Invigorating Elixir will generally be better, because the Class DC - 10 formula will almost always be better, and (Class Level / 2, Round Up) for Counteract Level increases on the odd levels.

Contagion Metabolizer, the general anti-Disease/anti-Poison Elixir, is a bit more awkward. It only has three Tiers, not five... but its Counteract Level is (Item Level/2 round up), not (Item Level/2).

So the L5 version has CL3, meaning it works on a success for CLs 3 & 4... which generally will handle up to Level 9 when CL 5 shows up. The +11 check means a success on 9 (CL3) or 12 (CL4) before starting to need Nat 20s for CL5 at Levels 9 & 10.

Level 11, things start to work as expected again with Moderate. CL 6 and 7 on a Success, +19 on the roll is as strong as the L12 Bottled Catharsis... so rolls of 9 or 12 again. Gets awkward at 15th, just like Bottled Catharsis, but stays so for an additional level, because Greater Contagion Metabolizer is L19.

The advantage there being, Contagion Metabolizer finishes with a CL of 10, which makes CL 9 Counteracted on a Failed roll. The Modifier (+30) is also stronger.

I've currently only played my 10th Level Mutagenist under the PC2 rules. I'm looking forward to playing my 11th level Bomber later this month (if I can grab a spot when 6-09, The Power of Legends drops.)

So, Norm Waglan, my Mutagenist, has Int +5 but doesn't have Efficient Alchemy. So, 9 Advanced Alchemy Items a day. He also has an Alchemical Familiar, and usually will take Extra Alchemy & Extra Vial.

4 doses of Bestial Mutagen.
1 Darkvision Elixir
2 Antidotes
1 Antiplague
1 Soothing Tonic in case he's out of Versatile Vials.
1 Mistform Elixir

He has 7 regenerating Versatile Vials, with an additional once-per-day one from Jeeves (his familiar.)

I've only played him twice. However, the following regimen has worked quite well:
Every ten minutes: Cheetah's Elixir, Bravo's Brew, Eagle-Eye Elixir.

I'm not a huge fan of the "drink your regen limit every ten minutes" strategy, but I've gotta admit, it's effective.

Roll Initiative: Hit the Collar, take a point of Piercing, gain 10 temp HP from the Bestial.
First round of the fight: Combine Elixirs Soothing & Numbing Tonics, Stride or Raise Shield (usually Raise Shield).
Rest of the fight: Two Versatile Vials in reserve.

Last game, was able to pre Buff, which I find pretty rare usually. So, used the one-a-day to add in Chromatic Jellyfish Oil and burnt the final two Versatile Vials on Rainbow Vinegar and Iron Wine. Still spent the first round on Soothing & Numbing.

Advanced Alchemy: During your daily preparations, you spend some time to create alchemical items that can be used over the course of the day. You don't need to attempt a Crafting check to do this, you can use an alchemist's toolkit instead of an alchemist's lab, and you ignore both the number of days typically required to create the items and any alchemical raw materials requirements. You can Craft a number of alchemical items up to 4 + your Intelligence modifier. Each item must be in your formula book, have an item level equal to or lower than your level, and have the consumable trait. These items have the infused trait and remain potent for 24 hours or until your next daily preparations, whichever comes first.

So a Wizard with a Spellbook can prepare their Spells. An Alchemist without either a Toolkit or a Lab cannot do any Alchemy, period, even with a Formula Book.

Still, I don't think it's much of a hassle, barring a scenario like the postulated (PCs are imprisoned without gear.) Worst case, if the Alchemist can get ahold of the right tools, they can make a Toolkit in two days with a roll of 7+.

Welcome to the new reality of the Remastered Alchemist. ;P

That's not the Remastered Alchemist... that was the Core Rulebook Alchemist. Kinda.

I played a Core Rulebook Bomber Alchemist in Outlaws of Alkenstar. At the end, I was doing the following:

• Making four Moderate Elixirs of Life, one for each party member, for emergency in-combat healing. (We were lacking in that area.)
  
• Four Silvertongue Mutagens for the Bard.
  
• Four Numbing Tonics for our frontliner Armor Inventor.
  
• Two Life Shot bullets for our Vanguard Gunslinger (he wanted some emergency ranged healing.)
  

And that was on top of everything I made for my Bomber's personal use... and he never ran out. There were a couple of spare Batches in there for Alchemical rabbits too.

Simply can't do that anymore. My PFS Bomber (11th level) is going to need his Versatile Vials for Sticky Bombs, and at 11 Advanced Alchemy items a day, he's not going to be doing a lot of support.

Alchemical rabbits though, I admit that PC2 Alchemist will be better at that. It's simply going to be a question of "can I afford to give up Offense to do this?"

I played a Core Rulebook Warpriest through Extinction Curse... had a blast doing so.

Was DPS secondary? Yeah, but it also wasn't nothing. There were a number of times when it was my guy's rapier that put something down, and that's what really counts in the end, right?

I did take the main Medicine Feats... heck, I spent a General Feat to get them faster.

I will say, on paper, I like the Player Core Warpriest even more than I liked the Core Rulebook one. Raise Symbol? I would've loved Raise Symbol for my guy's build.

Where things are still a bit unclear with Toxicologists is whether or not their Poisons can inflict conditions on the immune, or if it's simply a damage type swap.

Field Benefit:You can apply an injury poison you’re holding to a weapon or piece of ammunition you’re wielding as a single action, rather than as a 2-action activity. In addition, you flexibly mix acidic and poisonous alchemical compounds. Your infused poisons can affect creatures immune to poison. A creature takes acid damage instead of poison damage from your infused poisons if either the creature is immune to poison or that would be more detrimental to the creature (as determined by the GM). Typically, this benefit applies when the creature has an immunity, resistance, or weakness to one of the damage types.

There has always been support for Immunity not applying when the damage type doesn't match the Trait to which Immunity applies (ie, having a different damage type works around Immunity):

However, some complex effects might have parts that affect you even if you're immune to one of the effect's traits; for instance, a spell that deals both fire and acid damage can still deal acid damage to you even if you're immune to fire.

So, it's hard to say. My personal interpretation is that a 1st level Toxicologist can now do Acid damage to a Skeleton with Giant Centipede Venom, but the Skeleton won't be fatigued or clumsy if the Poison advances past Stage 1.

Still a major improvement, but not quite as good as it would be if Tox could hit Immune creatures with the major Debuff poisons.

Now, the Field Benefit completely avoiding Poison Resistance is just a complete win. And who knows, maybe some time a Tox will encounter something Weak to Acid and that will be a fun win too.

Yes, I believe that the general consensus matches your analysis, as far as poisons created with Quick Alchemy - Create Consumable goes.

Note that this allows you to poison up weapons in advance of a fight, if you use things like Doubling Rings or a Thrower's Bandolier.

As you've said you're going to game master, I would focus on getting GM Core and Player Core. Monster Core is great, but as Easl mentions above you can search monsters on Nethys easily for free.

When finances allow, I'd grab Monster Core and Player Core 2, and with that you're pretty much set.

Errata gets incorporated when a book gets reprinted. At that time the PDF will be updated for no additional cost for those who own an earlier edition in that format.

But I consider it secondary to the fact that alchs are just not as good at hitting things with a weapon without getting high on their own supply - i.e., needing to use a mutagen to just keep up with a dedicated martial's to-hit bonus.

It goes a bit further than "keeping up".

An Alchemist's Key Ability Score is Intelligence. So, the best point of comparison is a similar Martial, like a Thaumaturge.

Without one of the four Accuracy enhancing Mutagens (Bestial, Fury Cocktails, Quicksilver, War Blood) an Alchemist will be behind a Thaumaturge for four levels: 5, 6, 13 & 14. The deficit is a -2. A Bomb using Alchemist would additionally be -1 behind at 2, 10 & 16, as Bombs get their Accuracy boost one level behind Runes.

With such a Mutagen, the Alchemist still remains behind at some of those levels... but the deficit is cut in half to -1. Compared to a Thaumaturge, the Mutagen using Alchemist has the following Accuracies:

-1: 5, 6, 13 & 14
0: 2, 10 & 16
+1: 1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 19 & 20.

So, behind for four levels, even for three, and ahead for thirteen.

Compared to a Rogue, which has KAS Dex:
-2: 13 & 14
-1: 2, 5, 6 & 10
0: 1, 3, 4, 11, 12, 16 & 20
+1: 7, 8, 9, 15, 17, 18 & 19

So, behind for six, even for seven and ahead for seven.

So you don't have to use a Mutagen. But I highly recommend it. I have an 11th Level Bomber and a 10th level Mutagenist in PFS. I also played a Bomber for ten levels through Outlaws of Alkenstar. Both the Bombers use (or used) Quicksilver all the time. The Mutagenist uses Bestial. It's been great.

I have to agree with BotBrain that it's mainly an in-universe thing. I have to admit that pouring a poison on a body part breaks my suspension of disbelief. Yes, it's an injury poison, but being directly applied like that I would still expect it to affect the user, not allow it to poison opponents.

I'm currently just amused they forgot the Frequency: Once a Day line on Necromancer's Quickened Casting.

More impressions to come, I'm sure.

I've been meaning to chime in on this for a while.

I think there's a real place for this Archetype.

I think it scratches a different itch than Warpriest. I played a Core Rulebook Warpriest for 20 levels through Extinction Curse. I did so partly because of the poor online reputation of the Doctrine, and I never regretted it. Loved the character & loved the Doctrine.

This would be different. There's a real psychological benefit, IMHO, to getting your Expert Proficiency with Strikes at the same time as everyone else. I imagine it will be most pronounced in 1-10 campaigns. I know the Warpriest player in my Abomination Vaults campaign has been eagerly waiting to catch up with the others at L7.

Not as strong a Spellcaster, to be sure, but I think that's ok. You still have four strong slots on top of your Battle Auras, and then there's the Creed Magic slots. To be honest, when I was playing Ellisar, my Warpriest, a lot of times I wasn't casting all that many spells in an Encounter.

Also, I like the mechanic. Put up a Bless (something Ellisar did a lot), and then start hitting things.. and starting at 4th the Emanation will increase 10'.

I like Empowered Onslaught as well. The idea that a Crit can start a slippery slope is pretty cool. Because with Bless, a Crit leads to an equal Status Bonus to Strike as Rank Six Heroism... For everybody in the party, including yourself. Which makes a second Critical just that much more likely... And that's Rank 9.

About the only thing I really don't like is that Aura Expertise doesn't play well with Empowered Onslaught if you only have one Aura up.

If this had been around when I played Extinction Curse, I might've chosen it. No regrets at all, but still, maybe.

"Sacrificing thralls... is there anything it can't do?" - To paraphrase a certain lich.

It's a question I've begun to contemplate lately, because I was theory-crafting a Toxicologist that actually uses Blowgun Poisoner. Largely because man, pulling off a crit Blowgun Strike would have a ton of style.

So, if I'm using Avoid Notice and I have my Blowgun in one hand and my usual flask of Quicksilver Mutagen, will the GM let me down the Mutagen without breaking Stealth?

Similarly, as I have a chance to remain Hidden, can I draw my second (of four) poisoned Blowguns? Or a poisoned Javelin?

Just theorycrafting. I have no plans on playing such a Toxicologist anytime soon.

As a player, I've completed both Extinction Curse (1-20) and Outlaws of Alkenstar (1-10). As a GM, I'm currently running Abomination Vaults (1-10), and given the group has been stable for well over a decade, I have no reason to believe we won't finish it.

It just takes a long time. We game every second Wednesday, for three hours.

You're a bit off with Alchemist accuracy. The big thing is, Alchemists have Mutagens, and Mutagens help.

I have a Bomber in PFS, currently 11th level. With the Remaster rules, his accuracy compared to a Rogue looks like this:

-2: 13 & 14
-1: 2, 5, 6, 10
Even: 1, 3, 4, 11, 12, 16, 20
+1: 7, 8, 9, 15, 17, 18, 19

I tend to discount the -1 levels. I've played through them three times so far, pre-Remaster. It really doesn't make much of an impact.

So that leaves 13 & 14 as the only truly painful levels. Which sucks, but at least it's only two levels.

Squiggit wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

The "must max out your key attribute" is, IMO, a holdover from PF1 or D&D3+.

I don't entirely agree here. A character with a 16 in their KAS in PF1 generally feels a lot more stable than a character with a +2 in their KAS in PF2. I'm sorry but if you tell me a Barbarian with +2 Strength is actually really good I don't think I could believe you.

Counter-example: Combat alchemist (probably bomber; not mutagenist, considering how underwhelming PF2 mutagens are) going into mauler. Str +3 and Dex +2 or +3 are more useful early on than Int +3 vs. +2...

Also, note my exact words (which you cut and seem to have ignored): "a +3 (or even +2 in some specific cases) at 1st level in the key ability score of a class (which does not always match the most important ability score for a character)..."

Before the Remaster, there was definitely a place for a low Int Bonus Alchemist... particularly Mutagenist. I built a highly successful Str +3 Cha +3 Int +1 Mutagenist, and played it to 10th Level.

With how Resources work for the Player Core 2 Alchemist, every Alchemist needs to max out their Int Bonus. Every point less than Max is one fewer Advanced Alchemy Item per day and one less Versatile Vial per Encounter.

This reminds me of Raise a Tome. the L2 Magus feat. My Sparkling Targe Magus has that one; it's fun!

I take full credit. I upped my pledge by $31 (CDN) this morning.

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

(But seriously, it's weird to think that if I didn't do that, on a whim, it would've finished just short.)

They broke $610,000 by eighteen dollars (Canadian)!!! Which means the campaign met the Multiclass Archetyping Stretch Goal!!!

Talk about every dollar pledged counting! Heck, I upped my own pledge this morning on a whim by $31! (Went from Early Bird Digital with a dice set to Digital Deluxe with three dice sets.)

Funded! Funded funded funded! Woo!!!

Fair point, but for the time being I'm going with majority rule. We have two sources with the nerfed Splash to one with the original. (Both Player Cores largely agree on Splash, although PC2 has the wording on Strength bonuses that PC1 lacks.)

1 - Yes, technically, you can't Strike anything but a creature. However, Paizo doesn't follow this RAW at all since you can find plenty of instances in published Adventures where you're supposed to Strike objects, and they're given AC, HP, etc. The most common of these are Hazards, for example, the Slamming Door. Being able to attack the floor isn't spelled out but it's something you should be able to easily do.

2 - The Splash trait change affects only Splash damage, not any other effects the bomb would have against creatures/objects within the Splash area. Stuff like the Skunk Bomb save or the difficult terrain from the Aether Marble still apply even on a miss.

A Skunk Bomb has its effect (with saving throw bump) to everything in the Splash area. Under the Player Cores version of Splash, on a miss, the Splash doesn't have an area, as it only effects the target.

While it is rather silly, by RAW you cannot just throw a Bomb at the ground. The definition of Strike specifies a Creature as the Target, and a Strike is how you Activate a Bomb.

It also occurs to me that things like the somewhat unique design space of Skunk Bombs may be why Paizo decided to end area Splash on a miss.

Hasn't Paizo been fairly clear that Starfinder 2e is only balanced internally? That while yes, the underlying rules are compatible, bringing content from one game to the other is not for the faint of heart?

You’ve learned the humble art of construction, of finding lost people and things, of moving speedily among buildings and moats

I don't know about you, but I think Revealing Light would be aces at finding somebody unconscious in the underbrush.

Given the toolkit rules, I honestly don't see any reason why you couldn't leverage them to throw one of your renewable Versatile Vials with one action. And I suppose there are some build where this might come in handy every now and then.

Still, Versatile Vials are such a lackluster Bomb that I honestly think you'd be better off using them to Quick Alchemy:Create Consumable at all times and eat the extra Action to get a much better Bomb. I would take a Moderate Acid Flask over a Moderate Versatile Vial any day.

Quick Bomber remains far superior if you can spare the Feat slot.

I've really enjoyed Neverwinter Nights over the years. (Haven't played NWN2.) So this project intrigues me, given Ossian's NWN roots.

While a Linux client may be too much to hope for, perhaps the game will run in Wine or Proton...

ottdmk wrote:

I've written "An Alchemist's Guide to Alchemical Items", and I've included a section that deals with Alchemical Foods. Please download it... the Google Drive PDF viewer is definitely not the best.

I haven't updated it to Player Core 2 yet, and definitely not the Tian Xia Character Guide (which I don't own yet.) But it's reasonably complete. Hopefully you can find it useful. Feedback is always welcome.

Ooooh! I'm definitely downloading this! Any chance you could put out a message after it gets updated for PC2 and TXCG?

Absolutely! I have a thread here in the Advice subforum where I invite discussion and post any updates.

I've written "An Alchemist's Guide to Alchemical Items", and I've included a section that deals with Alchemical Foods. Please download it... the Google Drive PDF viewer is definitely not the best.

I haven't updated it to Player Core 2 yet, and definitely not the Tian Xia Character Guide (which I don't own yet.) But it's reasonably complete. Hopefully you can find it useful. Feedback is always welcome.

My take on the "you don't need to learn a higher level formula" means that everything you needed to make the higher level item was already in your original, 1LV formula. In fact it really isn't a 1LV at all, but as you progress in levels, you learn how to perfect the formula, tweak it as your knowledge grows.

I like this take!

ottdmk wrote:

So how is this worth it for my Build?

Could be worth it as a ranged option as a shield limits ranged weapon options and it'd offer a one handed, effectively reload 0 option. Depends on how often you expect to meet things that aren't in reach like flying foes. A strike that has a lower chance to hit and does less than your melee attack is still better then twiddling your thumbs or pulling out an off thrown weapon IMO.

I would reply that in such a circumstance I'm better off just eating the Action cost and using two Actions to throw the Bomb. Because with my already poor Build for throwing Bombs (low Dex, no Quicksilver, no Bomb Feats) there's really no point in my throwing two Quick Vials in a round. (Critical Miss chance would go up to around 40%.)

My Mutagenist, who uses Bestial, uses a shield... a Martyr's Shield to be exact, that he upgraded to the equivalent of a Moderate Sturdy Shield when he hit L10.

However, for the sake of discussion, let's say he didn't use a Shield.

Now, it's true, Norm will usually do a Combine Elixirs Quick Alchemy on Round one. That's because I like Moderate Numbing Tonic a lot, and with Combine I can add in a Moderate Soothing Tonic as well. So yes, Quick Alchemy on Round one.

So, with Quick Bomber, I could also throw a Quick Vial Bomb.

At most, I'm doing an average of 9 pts of Acid damage with that free Strike, unless I get really lucky and Nat 20 it for an average of 16. Most often, I will do 2 points of Splash damage only. The chance of doing nothing is around 15% (1-3 on the die.)

So how is this worth it for my Build? I'm much better off with a Familiar and getting an extra Item per day with Extra Alchemy, and maybe a delivery system with Item Delivery. Or maybe just an extra Quick Vial when I really need one.

And no matter how little investment the Alch has in bomb-throwing as a specialization, the comparison is clear.

Trip, you are putting way too much value on action compression here.

Yes, you are correct: with Quick Bomber, any Alchemist doing a Double Brew could make a Quick Vial Strike for free.

The question for Strength builds is: Why bother?

Let's take my 10th level Mutagenist as an example. He is now Dex +2. So, you're suggesting that it's worth it to trade my Alchemical Familiar (his original Level 1 Feat) for Quick Bomber.

As Norm is -3 behind where my Bomber was at 10th, the most likely outcome of this free Strike is a simple miss, at 45% (at-level Opponent, High AC, 0 MAP). Overall miss chance, counting critical miss, is 60%. So I've spent my 1st level Feat for the opportunity to do 2 points of Acid Splash, with a chance to do absolutely nothing with a roll of 1-3.

So no, Quick Bomber is not a feat tax. It's great if you're a Bomber... it may even be worth it if you're going Ranged but not using Bombs as your primary attack. For other builds, there are much better things to spend your 1st level Class Feat on.

I play two Alchemists in PFS. The first is a Bomber, and yeah, I have Quick Bomber (although I only took it at L5 through a Halfling Ancestry Feat.)

The second is a Mutagenist, who only just got Dex +2 at 10th level. He's thrown a Bomb maybe once in his entire career.

So, I'm deeply glad it's a Feat, not a Class Feature. I don't need anything in there that says "You should always be throwing Bombs!" No, with the Mutagenist, I prefer ripping things to shreds.

The archetype is stronger in some ways, weaker in others. The Core Rulebook archetype could, by 20th, make 40 Items each day, while the Player Core 2 version tops out considerably lower, and somewhere between four-seven of them have to be made with Quick Alchemy.

On the other hand, the Item Level progression in Core Rulebook was horrible, and topped out at 15, while the Items created with Player Core 2 can be your Level or lower.

The new archetype is strongest for someone who can keep a hand free (for Quick Alchemy) and wants to use an Elixir of some kind (Mutagen or other) every combat. There is a lot of potential there.

I have a flurry Ranger in PFS that uses a Clan Dagger with Doubling Rings. The Dagger has the Runes, and his main weapon is either a Short Sword or a Light Hammer. It's been a lot of fun.

I like the Clan Dagger for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it has Parry, and my guy has Twin Parry building towards Twin Riposte. Secondly, it has Bludgeoning. Thirdly, it's just thematic as anything.

This isn't a new issue. From Core Rulebook (4th Printing):

When you throw an alchemical bomb and that bomb has the splash trait, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the bomb’s usual splash damage, and it deals splash damage to every creature within 10 feet of the target.

So, similar language. Every table I've ever been at allows the damage boost even when the Bomber Research Field ability limits the Splash zone.

While it is a nerf, and I can understand why it's disliked, it's much more thematic than the old version. This version behaves like most other Bombs, which I appreciate. It fits the picture I have in my head much better.

I'm reminded of Life Shot ammo.

I find myself thinking that Meddling Futures would be best served before a second Action.

Say you open up with a Strike. You then invoke Meddling Futures.

1) Warrior. You Strike again, and your MAP is reduced by 1.
2) Adept. You Trip (as an example), and again, your MAP is reduced.
3) Sage. You Cast a Save spell.
4) Wanderer. You Stride (and admittedly, there's a chance this will Provoke) and now the opponent has to come to you, wasting an action. Maybe you cast Shield (or Raise Shield).

Just a thought, anyways. The Curse is definitely quite nasty for a playstyle that wants you to be in melee range.

I'm actually a fan of the one round prep. I just haven't seen much support for that idea in a while.

I take it from reading through this thread that there are no fans of Counterspells? I realize that Clever Counterspell comes online only at 12th, but it plays into my Wizard fantasy so well. My GM has been thinking about letting us rebuild our characters (we ported over from D&D 3.5 at Level 12, then played until 15 before going on hiatus) and I've been seriously thinking about going into that.

Does that familiar versatile vial replenish along with the others?

Extra Vial: Your familiar accretes alchemical liquids in its body. Once per day, you can Interact when your familiar is adjacent to you to gain a versatile vial. You must have the versatile vials ability to select this ability.

Given the specific wording, I would say the answer is no.

1) Yes. The only exception is Striking with Quick Vials when you have the Quick Bomber feat. It makes the Toxicologist and Mutagenist Field Vial benefits tough to access.

2) Quick Vials are infinite, yes. You just have to remember that you can't use a Quick Vial to then Create Consumable; they can only be used for a Strike and for the Field Vial uses.

Well, on my guy, I've been using the Free feat to grab either Conceal Spell (there are several days we've needed to be sneaky, it's been great) or Energy Ablation (while he doesn't Blast a lot, he still Blasts on occasion.) I tried Widen Spell once or twice, it generally wasn't worth it with my play style.

I honestly forgot all about Nonlethal Spell. There've been a few missions we've been on where that would have been good to take.

Strongly considering grabbing Bond Conservation at L16 on those days he doesn't need to be sneaky. (He's 15th now.)

I took Reach Spell for him at 1st. That one has come in handy quite a few times.

Versatile Vials themselves have the Infused trait. It's in the stat block on pg 59. So, definitely no hoarding them.

Given the use of the word "statistics" not to mention that the rules about Versatile Vials on pg 58-59 are, unsurprisingly, very Alchemist specific, I will be operating under the understanding that only Alchemists get to replenish Versatile Vials outside of Daily prep. I am confident that this is the correct interpretation.