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I still want a magus style caster for divine, occult and primal traditions.
Infact I am still a little bit miffed that they didn't make the class flexible from the start.
Generally I want less classes and more subclasses and class archetypes with feat support though.
Aside from the Inquisitor? Medium... Mesmer... although those could be a Psychic's new minds.
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Commander, Guardian, and SF2 Solarians honestly crossed the last ones off my list. I'm content.
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Shifter is the big one for me. I want to live my Animorphs fantasy!
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Aside from the Inquisitor? Medium... Mesmer... although those could be a Psychic's new minds.
Inquisitor is mine...though it sounds like they are giving more deity-related benefits to "Fighters and Rogues" which *might* cover what I feel is missing from a Rogue with a Cleric archetype.
I feel live Captivator was supposed to cover Mesmerist, but I'd be happy if they did more Psychic minds to cover that. (Currently playing a PF1 Mesmerist and their playstyle is quite different than other stuff out there.)
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Im not going to say the name of a PF 1e class I want, but more the concept I want. I want a character who channels primal magic into themselves in order to empower themselves in combat. Barbarian doesn't quite hit this and summoner is a different vibe. Basically I want more a Champion with like the heaviest or hardest Druid dedication to them, but as a bespoke class with primal magic baked right in.
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Chaos Mage.
I want a class that's about rolling on tables to see what happens.
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For me I think the problem is a lot of the stuff I want is almost in the game but not quite, stuff that feels too big to be an archetype but maybe too close to existing ideas to be a new class.
I want a class that's almost like the Inventor, but focuses on actual inventions, gadgets, and special abilities rather than being a martial with only one or two added gimmicks.
I want a class that's almost the Wild Druid, but sacrifices raw magical power for more interesting and flexible shapeshifting.
I want a primal magus-adjacent class that uses primal elemental and nature magic to disrupt enemies. Imagining battlefield controlling auras and zones of space, elemental themed special attacks...
I want a class that's like the Ranger without the obligate nature themeing and like the Investigator without being objectively bad in every way.
There's also in general just a handful of PF1 classes that I'm reasonably confident will never be brought back but still can't play in PF2 and feel bad about it (inquisitor, mesmerist, spiritualist, ninja, for starters) but it's kind of past the point thinking about those.
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Shifter! I want a martial class with shapeshifting that's much more flexible and impactful than those underpowered, restrictive polymorph spells. I get why current battle forms are so weak; because they're balanced for use by a full caster. Well I don't want spellcasting, I just want to turn into a bear or shark or giant spider or whatever and be awesome in that form. Also, I want forms to last longer.
Unfortunately I doubt this will ever happen. There seems to be a real hesitation to create a martial class that can do something besides hit things with a sharp stick. I hope I'm wrong tho.
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Im not going to say the name of a PF 1e class I want, but more the concept I want. I want a character who channels primal magic into themselves in order to empower themselves in combat. Barbarian doesn't quite hit this and summoner is a different vibe. Basically I want more a Champion with like the heaviest or hardest Druid dedication to them, but as a bespoke class with primal magic baked right in.
Kind of sounds like the 4e D&D Warden which was a Primal Defender and had the highest Hit Point total in the game. Like a 4e Fighter it defended its allies and made it harder for their enemies to attack their allies. Like a Druid they were Primal and had a Polymorph like effect. Their dailies were mostly about transforming themselves in a way to better help their defending for an encounter, like a tree form that gave them reach and may have allowed them to slide their enemies around when they hit, forms that made the area round them difficult terrain for their enemies, forms that may have added a knockdown effect to their hits, or forms that made them more resistant to their enemy's attacks. For those not familiar with 4e Primal was a Power Source and Primal classes tended to have the highest HP for their Role. Defender was a Role based around defending their allies or punishing their enemies who attacked their allies. Using the Marking mechanic. A Fighter might be equivalent to a Defender because of the Reactive Strike, both Champion and Guardian would definitely fall under Defenders.
For me I think the problem is a lot of the stuff I want is almost in the game but not quite, stuff that feels too big to be an archetype but maybe too close to existing ideas to be a new class.
I want a class that's almost like the Inventor, but focuses on actual inventions, gadgets, and special abilities rather than being a martial with only one or two added gimmicks.
I want a class that's almost the Wild Druid, but sacrifices raw magical power for more interesting and flexible shapeshifting.
I want a primal magus-adjacent class that uses primal elemental and nature magic to disrupt enemies. Imagining battlefield controlling auras and zones of space, elemental themed special attacks...
I want a class that's like the Ranger without the obligate nature themeing and like the Investigator without being objectively bad in every way.
There's also in general just a handful of PF1 classes that I'm reasonably confident will never be brought back but still can't play in PF2 and feel bad about it (inquisitor, mesmerist, spiritualist, ninja, for starters) but it's kind of past the point thinking about those.
The Inventor thing kind of reminds me of the first version of the 5e Artificer Unearthed Arcana before they changed it, also the homebrew Artificer than one person made before the final version of Artificer came out.
The Wild Druid shapeshifter thing kind of sounds like what people expected for the 1e Shifter, but hopefully much better than what we got in 1e. Definitely one of the concepts I have really been looking forward to since 3.0 D&D, the closest I have seen was probably the 4e D&D Druid who went on a Wild Shape focus, though the 3.x Shapeshift Druid variant was interesting but gave up too much, while still technically being just as much of a caster as a normal Druid, while also not having the Shapeshift be anywhere near as good as just Wild Shape with the only real benefit being that it was at will. The 1e Shifter kind of felt like it was going this way, but was so underpowered and still wasn't at will shifting.
Primal Magus-like kind of sounds a bit like how the 4e Druid, who did not focus on Wild Shape, kind of worked. It was a controller so its abilities were mostly focused on controlling enemies, and some of their dailies were auras. A class focused on Auras is also a concept that I have really wanted. The closest right now is Kineticist probably, and sadly you can't grab a bunch of Aura Stances, I would love to be able to combine a number of them but stances are mutually exclusive except for a very high level Monk.
I'd like support for classical themed casters (elemental, polymorpher, enchanter).
For example it should be possible to make elemental casters with the Geomancer archetype, but currently this archetype only works for a Fire Elemental Sorcerer; the other geomancy effects are pretty worthless, and only Elemental Sorcerers have a reliable way of triggering the attunement outside of a pure terrain-focused campaign (like permanently on/under water, or purely in forests). Kineticists have elemental support, but their play style & feel is very different. The famous Winter Witch Winter Witch, Waves Shaman/Oracle, Rime Spell users from 1e want to return.
The Captivator and Spell Trickster are somewhat lackluster archetypes as well, as are many other archetypes & feats.
I'm glad the Bloodrager is returning, along with the Shaman/Animist.
Maybe also introduce some utility cantrip slots? I never see myself take Prestidigitation, Approximate, Draw Moisture, Healing Plaster, Sigil, or Inside Ropes on any caster, because there are too few cantrip slots and too many of them feel obligatory (1 cantrip for every save/AC, important buffs like Guidance, or combat utilities like Rousing Splash). Spellhearts exist only for those important encounter cantrips, and cantrip decks are only bought for rare/emergency cantrips like Stabilize when all healers are down after combat.
The fact that the recent errata nerfed the Musical Accompaniment cantrip seems like a bad omen: It's a cantrip. Nobody thought it was overpowered. Doesn't it just lead to more bookkeeping having to recast it every 10min if you want to keep it "on"? Every 10 minutes is long enough that you're going to be able to always have it on anyway. Especially as there's a built in downside to having it active, it's loud and ruins your Stealth (which is often a much better choice for initiative than Perception since you can get way better proficiency).
Besides, now you can't use it anymore for flavorful lullabies while sleeping...
Maybe call them utility cantrips Knacks or Orisons again and give a caster some slots for these, so casters can bring some magic into their ordinary life outside encounters. I mean Inside Ropes is dope, so funny, it's a shame nobody ever uses it.
I want a class that would be focussed on Fortune/Misfortune and with the ability to get that precious hero point from the PC who does not need it to the one who needs it desperately.
Harrow Sorcerer with Harrower archetype is a good base for that, and maybe mythic destinies offer some things in this regard?
Chaos Mage.
I want a class that's about rolling on tables to see what happens.
Wellspring Mage with Chaotic Spell and a Madcap Top is already pretty chaotic. I'm not sure even small randomness tables can be properly balanced, just think about the unplayable Ancestors Oracle.
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While I am not against more classes, after Commander and Guardian I'd like to see new classes put on hold for a while and get a book that adds more character options.
More Ancestry feats, especially for those that get just 2 choices at higher level tiers.
More deviant powers and Artifact Archetypes, so that if a table wants to use those abilities, all four players can have a different one.
More feats, spells, etc.
There's a lot that can be done to flesh out stuff that they have already done.
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It's being nit-picky but if the Medium came back and wasn't just being replaced by Animist, that'd be cool. I liked it being a weak base that could lean into a completely different role day-to-day and be good if that great in that role. Animist will probably be an adequate replacement but I feel like it will always be a strong caster and mid (at best) martial/skill monkey.
Again, that's me being nit-picky. Otherwise, now, after Howl of the Wild, I'm completely satisfied.
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Profession-based mages in the vein of Tamora Pierce’s circle of Magic series. A thread and weaving mage for example that can strengthen or unwind the magic of others.
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At this point, I think I'm happy with the amount of classes, and I'd like to see Paizo go back to existing classes and give them more options in the way of feat lines, subclasses and just other options.
However, I'm never gonna say no to new stuff! Top of my list is Shifter, as I really like the vibe and I don't really feel the existing versions of "natural" fighters give me exactly what I'm looking for.
In terms of 100% original classes, idk. Maybe some kind of magic-cancelling martial who weakens magic effects nearby. Could be fun, albeit perhaps too situational for a class on its own.
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Meat kineticist
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Inquisitor and shifter really. Avenger rogue could work as a replacement for inquisitor and I think that's the intention (though its iconic seems to be the slayer iconic?) but after seeing what they did with the spellshot errata, even if they improved it, they still failed at giving it a clear role and I fear doing the same half-baked thing with the avenger too. It also doesn't help that Paizo seemingly doesn't know what to do with the eldritch trickster racket to the point of not updatint it for the Remaster, and that concept is easier to pull up than an inquisitor-based racket for the rogue who needs way more stuff.
I also think the perfect opprtunity for the shifter, even if as an archetype or class archetype for the druid, was with the most recent Howl of Wild book so I'm losing hope on that one to ever happen, though who knows.
That's it.
Divine kineticist(not the actual kineticist, different class)
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Inquisitor and shifter really. Avenger rogue could work as a replacement for inquisitor and I think that's the intention (though its iconic seems to be the slayer iconic?)
Mike Sayre has said everyone's been wrong about the guesses with Avenger, so it's not the Inquisitor. It does look like a Divine striker Rogue thing, so probably a re-interpretation of 1E's Slayer class.
So with Avenger being Slayer and Bloodrager being... well, Bloodrager, that leaves the last 3 War of Immortal class archetypes. The Seneschal, the Vindicator, and the Warrior of Legend.
If I were a betting man now, Inquisitor would be the Vindicator. I got no idea what class would have a Seneschal class archetype, and Warrior of Legend... just sounds like it can apply to most classes, to be honest.
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I'd love to see a spiritual successor to Arcanist.
I think there's potential for devs to go in a completely new direction with it, kinda like Occultist became Thaumaturge, how Cavalier is turning into Commander, or how Investigator went all in on its theme.
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A monster-building class. Something sturdier than a spellcaster that relies on persistent altered features instead of battle forms, and which covers truly weird territory like having extra heads.
But the PF1e slayer already exists in PF2e, its the ranger. The only real difference between slayer and ranger in PF1e was that slayers could use their "favored enemy" by spending a swift action on a target. That's effectively what Hunt Prey does for the ranger on PF2e so a slayer isn't needed. More so, the slayer wasn't a divine striker, only the deliverer was, so I'm already losing hope lol.
Inquisitor and shifter really. Avenger rogue could work as a replacement for inquisitor and I think that's the intention (though its iconic seems to be the slayer iconic?)Mike Sayre has said everyone's been wrong about the guesses with Avenger, so it's not the Inquisitor. It does look like a Divine striker Rogue thing, so probably a re-interpretation of 1E's Slayer class.
So with Avenger being Slayer and Bloodrager being... well, Bloodrager, that leaves the last 3 War of Immortal class archetypes. The Seneschal, the Vindicator, and the Warrior of Legend.
If I were a betting man now, Inquisitor would be the Vindicator. I got no idea what class would have a Seneschal class archetype, and Warrior of Legend... just sounds like it can apply to most classes, to be honest.
Where have these class archetypes been detailed? I have no idea what any of this is. These are being released in War of the Immortals?
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Yeah, the big War of the Immortals is going to have class archetypes in it, in addition to Mythic callings and Mythic destinies.
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Where have these class archetypes been detailed? I have no idea what any of this is. These are being released in War of the Immortals?Inquisitor and shifter really. Avenger rogue could work as a replacement for inquisitor and I think that's the intention (though its iconic seems to be the slayer iconic?)Mike Sayre has said everyone's been wrong about the guesses with Avenger, so it's not the Inquisitor. It does look like a Divine striker Rogue thing, so probably a re-interpretation of 1E's Slayer class.
So with Avenger being Slayer and Bloodrager being... well, Bloodrager, that leaves the last 3 War of Immortal class archetypes. The Seneschal, the Vindicator, and the Warrior of Legend.
If I were a betting man now, Inquisitor would be the Vindicator. I got no idea what class would have a Seneschal class archetype, and Warrior of Legend... just sounds like it can apply to most classes, to be honest.
HERE is the Twitch URL for Paizo's Day 1 of streamed panels that they did for PaizoCon 2024. If it doesn't take you immediately to the spot in the stream you're looking for, the timecode you are looking for is 3 hours, 13 minutes and 51 seconds.
Forewarning, the first couple of minutes in that panel have some tech issues, mostly in regards to Mike's audio only being able to be heard in the left ear. There's also some skipping that happens throughout all 3 days of panels.
As for when these are being released, 5 class archetypes (Avenger, Bloodrager, Seneschal, Vindicator, and Warrior of Legend) are coming out in the War of Immortals book. And the remaining 2 (Battle Harbinger and Palatine Detective) are coming out in Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries.
You can also check the r/Pathfinder2E and r/Starfinder2E subreddits for write-ups of all the streams from The-Magic-Sword, and there's write-ups from me about the spoilers given out on Discord in the PaizoCon Events server, and 2 write-ups from Actual Plays that happened this weekend.
Seneschal, Vindicator, and Warrior of LegendI missed these three - what classes are they archetypes for, and where'd you hear about them? I didn't see anything about them in the keynote or godsrain writeups, or the product summaries. And what's their schticks?
In the post above yours, I linked the beginning of the Godsrain panel, where Mike named all 5 of the class archetypes. He only talked about the Avenger class archetype for the Rogue, in which he showed a picture of Zadim and said this:
"Zadim is part of this theme of renewal. We brought in this archetype that many of you probably figured that there was no room for in the game, re-imagined it through the lens of the character, and are giving you all an opportunity to both meet this character again in a new light and play his themes through these new class mechanics."
As for “Class Archetypes” I’m a little confused. Checking AoN’s Class Archetypes page only lists a few archetypes none of whom actually have a “Class” as a prerequisite?!? Are there more out there that haven’t made it to AoN, and are any of them any good? None of those look interesting to me.
I guess I’m concerned that the five listed (Avenger, Bloodranger, Seneschal, Vindicator and Warrior of…Stuff) are going to be about as interesting as…an archetype. In other words, not very. It feels weird to go all in on describing Zadim coming back, and how his story and mechanics have been revamped and reimagined…as an Archetype.
Archetypes *might* be a cool flex, but they aren’t a class, especially in PF2. But it seems like the hype doesn’t get toned down between the two class and archetype especially when old PF1 classes are “brought back! Yay!” as…archetypes.
Happy to see how this unfolds.
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As for “Class Archetypes” I’m a little confused. Checking AoN’s Class Archetypes page only lists a few archetypes none of whom actually have a “Class” as a prerequisite?!? Are there more out there that haven’t made it to AoN, and are any of them any good? None of those look interesting to me.
I guess I’m concerned that the five listed (Avenger, Bloodranger, Seneschal, Vindicator and Warrior of…Stuff) are going to be about as interesting as…an archetype. In other words, not very. It feels weird to go all in on describing Zadim coming back, and how his story and mechanics have been revamped and reimagined…as an Archetype.
Archetypes *might* be a cool flex, but they aren’t a class, especially in PF2. But it seems like the hype doesn’t get toned down between the two class and archetype especially when old PF1 classes are “brought back! Yay!” as…archetypes.
Happy to see how this unfolds.
Class archetypes are called class archetypes because it's an archetype taken at level 1, and also the archetype changes fundamental class features of the class.
2 of the 5 current class archetypes are for a specific class (Runelords for Wizards, and Way of the Spellshot for Gunslingers). The other 3 makes changes to entire categories of spellcasters (Elementalists affect Arcane/Primal spellcasters, Flexible Spellcaster affects any Prepared spellcaster, and Wellspring Mage affects any Spontaneous spellcaster). Each of these change parts of a class to various degrees, more so than any other non-subclass function does in the game. It also offers a much larger bucket of feats for these class archetypes, compared to a general archetype.
The thing is, class archetypes have THE POTENTIAL to be able to do very interesting things customization-wise. We didn't have any class archetypes to look to as examples until Secrets of Magic came out, 2 years after the game launched. We knew about it since the CRB, but no examples were around. And then we only had the 4 in Secrets of Magic, and the 1 in Guns & Gears to go off of for another 3 years before we're getting 7 more, one of which (Battle Harbinger) we know is gonna make the Cleric even more of a frontline presence than the Remaster'd Warpriest is.
So the potential of what new mechanics or expressions of play are possible with getting more than double the class archetypes in the game is what is exciting to a lot of us. I hope that better explains to you why.
As for “Class Archetypes” I’m a little confused. Checking AoN’s Class Archetypes page only lists a few archetypes none of whom actually have a “Class” as a prerequisite?!? Are there more out there that haven’t made it to AoN, and are any of them any good? None of those look interesting to me.
I guess I’m concerned that the five listed (Avenger, Bloodranger, Seneschal, Vindicator and Warrior of…Stuff) are going to be about as interesting as…an archetype. In other words, not very. It feels weird to go all in on describing Zadim coming back, and how his story and mechanics have been revamped and reimagined…as an Archetype.
Archetypes *might* be a cool flex, but they aren’t a class, especially in PF2. But it seems like the hype doesn’t get toned down between the two class and archetype especially when old PF1 classes are “brought back! Yay!” as…archetypes.
Happy to see how this unfolds.
They don't list a class pre-req because technically all AoN is listing on the page is the dedication feat, not the class archetype itself (which can only be put on certain classes). If you look at say, the Runelord archetype, it lists "Runelord specialization", which in fact *does* require you being a Wizard. Every single class archetype is only available to a single class (such as with Spellshot with Gunslinger) or a set of classes which meet some requirement (such as with Elementalist and being either an arcane or primal spellcasting class)
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So a few niches left to fill on a basic mechanical level
A martial/support martial (Like Inventor or Thaumaturge) with Wisdom as a key attribute. I thought of something like a spirit healer, who manipulated the very flow of magic to heal or disrupt the body. With different feats granted that give you a disruption or a restoration.
Dedicated Limited casting, basically what someone else said a Magus for the other spell traditions. Now that I think about it these might be better suited to "class archetypes". Turning the Magus into a Inquisitor, Warden, and Channeler respectively maybe giving them slightly different abilities, but since their central theme is the same, just a little flavor would be enough.
I've always wanted a class, much like the 1e Archanist that was about manipulting magic on a more fundamental level. Specializing in learning smells from multiple traditions, and consuming magic. Maybe a weird caster where the spell save DC doesn't go as high as the Class DC which is used for things like countering spells.
I crave some kind of actual, proper Theurge class that's officially supported (no, I do not meant multi-class dedications, nor do I mean gestalting).
Unfortunately, though, pretty sure I'd get skewered alive and have my hopes dashed and deconstructed within seconds for even suggesting it. XDAlternatively, some kind of prepared Arcane (or Occult) caster that can access its entire list the way a Cleric or Druid can access theirs. Which I'm.. not exactly convinced would "break" anything.
Not skewered, just questioned. What unique mechanics did the theurge have that wizard with cleric dedication can't scratch?
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So Shifter for a Primal bounded caster (prepared) with an ability to change into Limited combat forms at evolves like the Eidolon does. Base the martial half off of a Barbarian or Monk. flying /climbing /running /swimming and whether it is an "Aggressive" or "Swift" creature. so their spell casting is bounded due to them having a more viable combat option (Like summoner) two subclass options of whether your shape is
For the Inquisitor as a bounded divine caster (prepared). While yes I would imagine their martial half as more of a Rogue, I would imagine instead of an Eidolon or spell strike, they can basically convert their limited spell slots into judgements, either very damaging essentially divine smites from 5e, or into heals, with more options based on a subclass or feats. their spell casting being bounded to limit the Nova (like Magus)
You mention the mesmerist as an Occult bounded caster (spontaneous). The martial part of this being based on Rogue. They should have a constant cone effect from the eyes/mouth that causes an effect based on subclass and feats. Their spell casting being bounded as it is secondary to this powerful controlling effect which would NOT have a "you are immune to this effect for " x amount of time.
A ninja-like. I understand Paizo justifiably does not want to make a ninja because it's very stereotypical, and potentially damaging. But I would love to see a class that mixes a degree of stealth, intrigue, and Qi/Ki that I just don't feel a Monk with the Rogue archetype or a Rogue with the Monk archetype quite scratches the itch of. Each feels like too much of one and not enough of the other, and would like to see a class that puts those themes into a more equal balance.
Kineticist with Weapon Infusion and Stealth/Thievery feats? Maybe throw in Rogue and/or Shadowdancer Dedication?
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Meat kineticistJust last Saturday my players and I were joking about that one. As combining a water kineticist, a wood kineticist, and a meat kineticist can be great if they are all cooks.
But this of course leads to the horrifying realization that for one to be a meat kineticist, there must be an elemental plane of meat.
Or they channel Vitality from the Forge of Creation.
@Ezekeriu: thanks for the solid explanation.
Hmm. Feels kinda like the Class Archetypes presented in WoI *will* be big changes to the underlying chassis of the classes they change *while* still taking advantage of progression of the chassis. Buuuut it also kinda sounds (from their names) that they could run the risk of being completely kludgy in the way that “Warlock” was a….Vigilante…subclass. Yeah. That made a lot of sense in PF1.
Or these might end up kinda being like Alternate Classes - Samurai for Cavalier, Ninja for Rogue etc… Still similar in mechanical scope but thematically distinct.
Which always makes me a little irritated that “folks have been clamoring for this concept” gets served by “here’s your Warlock, just like you asked!!!”
I guess I just like full classes, and though the answer is usually something along the lines of “there wasn’t enough in the concept to warrant a full class” I call shenanigans.
If I may...
What prevents the Inquisitor to be an archetype or a "sub-class" for the Champion or Cleric?
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Leaving alone power levels of the pf1 class, the core concept of the Inquisitor was a divine skill monkey with limited casting and more martial prowess.If I may...
What prevents the Inquisitor to be an archetype or a "sub-class" for the Champion or Cleric?
I think the reason we're never going to get an Inqusitor in PF2 is that if you asked several people you would get completely different answers for "what is the core concept of the Inquisitor".
You could say "divine skill monkey", you could say "monster-hunter", you could say "church troubleshooter", you could say "aggressive divine martial", you could say "incredible scary face", etc. Which is too many different things to put in one class's set of themes.
So it's much more likely we're going to see those themes divided between like 4-5 classes (including class archetypes) than stuffed into one.