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I think they just need to Errata it imo. While most are, not every animal is capable of making some kind of bite attack. Jellyfish is one that immediately comes to mind. Seems odd to restrict it in that manner. Should simply offer a few choices based on typical anatomy. You choose one and can then maybe take a 1st level Feat for another. But having every Beastkin stuck with just biting seems like a missed opportunity. Plus, biting is gross. Lol
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Beastkin needs one of those level 1 feats that grants you an unarmed attack, I feel.
No need to: the Change Shape ability grants you a natural attack.
The issue is that you don't choose which natural attack you get. You cannot select a claw, slam, horn, sting or tail attack instead of a bite, let alone picking the damage type.
I'm sorry, but if I'm shifting into a Brontosaurus, Stegoraurus or Ankylosaurus (all 3 eligible with Dinosaur Form), I'd like to be able to whip, skewer or hammer with my tail :P
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I desperately want this guy ( https://imgur.com/tA4pQH4 ) from the paizocon keynote as an ancestry. It looks slug based and ancestries that don't follow a boring bipedal humanoid shape are just the coolest.
I had somehow missed slug-friend. I must know more about friend. Gib ancestry. Gib friend.
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Personally... I think we have enough, at least for raw bulk purposes.
I mean, I'm not saying that more is bad, per se. If other people are getting joy and value out of having new ancestries show up, more power to them. If Paizo can make money by providing those people with additional ancestries, I'm all in favor of that.
At the same time, I feel like the overall palette of races is sufficient at this point. I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a character that I *couldn't* play, given a bit of reflavoring. In a very real way, I am not limited by the ancestry list.
That's not to say that I can't be moved by a new ancestry. I had no real interest in the idea of a "toy person ancestry" and then Poppet hit, and that thing grabbed me by the freaking heartstrings and dragged me across the room.
For me, an ancestry is just a chassis. It's not worth a lot by itself. At this point, there are enough ancestries out there that having the standard bit of cultural backstory plus a reasonable set of effects, heritages and feats? Still not worth a lot.
What gives it value, then? Built-in powerful emotional dynamics, and the resulting stories that leap off the page, begging to be told. (That was what his me with Poppet.) Interesting mechanical stuff that lets me do something different and flavorful, to the point that I want to construct an entire build around it. (Need not be overpowered. Just different. One-per day effects need not apply.) Stuff that will let me run a character that is different in some meaningful way, so that I can explore those differences, and what their implications would be.
Like, a lot of PF2 ancestries/heritages seem to be things like "here is a slug-person outfit, for those of you who want to be able to play a slug person that everyone can look at and agree is a slug person". I'm not saying that that's not worthwhile. There are players out there who want to play as slug people, and having the ancestry would let them play as slug people, and the rules would back them up and agree that they are slug people. There's real value there, for those players. For me, though... I have basically zero interest in new versions of anything that looks like that. I don't need an ancestry that just lets me play as a slug person. I want one where I'd be willing to play as a slug person just so I could have the ancestry.
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I mean, if they ARE osharu, they got that in spades: they're benevolent scientist people who want to make sure their innovations are used for good but have social anxiety, so when they travel they tend to either go in pairs or latch on to a friend group (like an adventuring party) ASAP.
That's compelling to me at least, they're such cinnamon rolls!
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I mean, if they ARE osharu, they got that in spades: they're benevolent scientist people who want to make sure their innovations are used for good but have social anxiety, so when they travel they tend to either go in pairs or latch on to a friend group (like an adventuring party) ASAP.
That's compelling to me at least, they're such cinnamon rolls!
To me? That's kind of meh. I mean, everyone has that level of ancestry characterization in PF2. That's kind of my point. Even more than that, "benevolent scientist with social anxiety" doesn't really require an ancestry in any way. It's just an easy jumping-off point. That's not to say that easy jumping-off points are bad things or anything, but they're not qualitatively different from the other "easy jumping-off point" ancestries that surround them.
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I don’t currently have something I could reflavor to be a Lashunta, Minotaur, or Wyrwood.
I will have two options to reflavor into a Sekmin if I want to later in the year, but I’m drawn to them because of their unique place in the lore, not because they’re “the snake guys.”
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I feel like enough ancestries isn't possible. Since any time you decide to look at one part of the setting you haven't really covered in depth before, there's going to be new kinds of people who live there. It's unsatisfying to say "Yeah Arcadia has Syrinx, and Couatl, and Sasquatch, and Wyrwoods but we're not going to give you rules for playing any of them in the Arcadia book."
You're always going to want to have a range of stuff throughout your books. Some people get excited about new classes, some people get excited about lore, some people get excited about items and spells, some people get excited about archetypes and feats for existing classes, and some people get excited about new ancestries. They're going to keep giving us all of those things at least sometimes.
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I desperately want this guy ( https://imgur.com/tA4pQH4 ) from the paizocon keynote as an ancestry. It looks slug based and ancestries that don't follow a boring bipedal humanoid shape are just the coolest.
I'm personally of the opinion that they may be the Ratajin mentioned in backmatter article on Vudra in Agent of Edgewatch second volume. They were mentioned alongside the Kashrishi, hence my assumption. At any rate, I'd be surprised if they weren't some sort of option, given they were in the Ancestry/Heritage slides.
*quote omitted*
Most importantly it builds one for the world of Golarion, imo. Every continent, nation, and settlement suddenly has their own unique identity based on the people that reside there. It also kind of goes hand in hand with Paizo's desire to be inclusive in a way. The plethora of intelligent people players can choose from sort of mirrors the myriad of people in our own world. They obviously aren't exactly 1:1, but it helps to express representation based around one's own identity. At least, that is kind of what it feels like to me.
I doubt Paizo will stop releasing new Ancestries for some time. They pride themselves on the giving players as many tools as possible to tell an endless number of stories. And an Ancestries place in character creation has been made so much more important in PF2 than any other system that I've played in. There are also still sooo many options from 1e that haven't made it in yet. I for one welcome them all.
EDIT: keftiu! I plan on using a Bull Beastkin to at least emulate a Minotaur until we maybe get them.
... Of course, if we ever get Bulls a Creatures. Lol
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Again, I have no argument with the "I want to be able to play an X" ancestries. They're not for me, but... well, they're not for me. That's cool. I'm just trying to say that there's real value in having at least a few of those ancestries that go beyond just "Well, now we have a reasonable and valid way to play X."
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I sort of want ancestry to mean something beyond "visual and aesthetic difference" as well as having ancestry mean more than "all creatures that look like this live in this incredibly narrow region for some reason and culturally all act the same...but need to be playable by PCs in any campaign."
I guess that is why we are only going to get 6 common ancestries and all the rest are going to be uncommon or rare? I am just worried that this kind of ancestry development easily leads to shallow character development options and leads to the "kinderization" of ancestries that are only going to be presented in a very limited way.
I do think it is a little weird to have some catch basin Ancestries like Fleshwarps, Skeletons, and Sprites, but also have different ancestries for Goblin and Hobgoblin, or Elves and potentially drow. I kind of wish that things like Skeleton and Fleshwarp were special heritages that could completely over-ride ancestry choices, like changing your HP, attribute distribution and speed, instead of unique ancestries that are essentially devoid of cultural development tied to their ancestry and not their nationality.
I do really like how the Mwangi expanse book talks about ancestry feats and heritages that go along with major cultural groups of elves, dwarves and Orcs and Halflings in that region and definitely want more of this in future Lost Omens setting books. Especially with Goblins and Gnomes, as those are two common ancestries that still feel like they are struggling for diverse cultural identity and playability, but on a personal level I really want more Iruxi, Tengu and Ysoki cultural development as well.
I want my ancestry choice to feel like I am connecting my character to a people and a place in the world of Golarion where they can still have a unique identity that doesn't force them to always be an outcast for being different.
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...
That's not to say that I can't be moved by a new ancestry. I had no real interest in the idea of a "toy person ancestry" and then Poppet hit, and that thing grabbed me by the freaking heartstrings and dragged me across the room.
...
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BattleZoo Ancestries: Minotaur cover shown on Reddit by Mark Seifter
Going through the comments, there will be an Heritage to be a Large Minotaur.
Also, Mark reiterates what the first 8 Ancestries in Year of Monsters shall be: Dungeons (expanded), Intelligent Weapons, Demons, Gremlins, Oni, Nymphs, Dopplegangers, and Minotaurs.
This is 8 of the 12 that they will be releasing over the course of 2023, before compiling them all into a "BattleZoo Ancestries: Year of Monsters" book; from my understanding.
I believe the info for these is also dropping in the BattleZoo newsletters, which I'm just realizing have been getting shoved into my spam folder. Thanks Google.
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Also, Mark reiterates what the first 8 Ancestries in Year of Monsters shall be: Dungeons (expanded), Intelligent Weapons, Demons, Gremlins, Oni, Nymphs, Dopplegangers, and Minotaurs.
Some of those are... potentially dreadfully tempting. Intelligent Weapons and the expanded Dungeons in particular are. I admit, I kept feeling like Dungeons was almost what I wanted, but didn't go quite far enough on the feats.
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Dungeon is thus far my most loved option in a TTRPG, probably ever. The idea is just so fun! And I really love the whole "I'm this, but I'm actually this" aspect between the Dungeon and their Avatar. Which makes me think Iay enjoy the Doppleganger as well.
The Nymph as an Ancestry practically writes itself. As do Gremlins. Gremlin is probably the one I'm least excited about, but happy to see nonetheless. The Demon and Oni options open the door for the various other Immortals; which I feel has the making for an incredibly interesting extraplanar adventure with a party composed of Celestials, Monitors, and Fiends working together for some greater goal.
Intelligent Weapons seem way cool as well. I hope there are some Feats that allow a fellow PC to wield you to some benefit. Also kind of gives me hope for an Intelligent Armor Ancestry down the line.
A Minotaur... enough said. <3
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Man that's really cool... though I hope they keep working on some of their existing stuff too. I know my groups have been kind of wishing dragons had more passive feats, especially at high levels.
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I'd be surprised if Dragons weren't expanded on. We still have the entire Leshy Dragon family that Toadstool Dragons belong to; which should have at least four more species of. Plus, any other Dragon sects they may add in future books.
Personally, I wouldn't be too upset at a Gem Dragon rip. Or a sect based on the four Traditions of Magic, with their "apex Dragon" (i.e: Red, Gold, etc.) encompassing all four.
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Intelligent Weapons seem way cool as well. I hope there are some Feats that allow a fellow PC to wield you to some benefit. Also kind of gives me hope for an Intelligent Armor Ancestry down the line.Intelligent Armor Armor Inventor.
"Is that suit of platemail wearing a suit of chainmail?"
I have never needed a "Like Button" on this forum more than I need it now. I'll settle for "Favoriting" I suppose. Lol.
I want this mostly to feed my desire to play a haunted suit of armor. Hoped the Ghost Archetype had a means to doing this, but alas.
EDIT: *insert Grogu magic meme that says "Time Magic!"*
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Intelligent Weapons seem way cool as well. I hope there are some Feats that allow a fellow PC to wield you to some benefit. Also kind of gives me hope for an Intelligent Armor Ancestry down the line.
Intelligent Armor Armor Inventor.
"Is that suit of platemail wearing a suit of chainmail?"
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If Roll For Combat and Mark keep this up, we are eventually going to see the release of a "BattleZoo Ancestries: The Whole Bestiary". Which I'm okay with. Lol.
I hope that some sort of crypt, mausoleum, necropolis, catacombs, or the like is a Heritage option for Dungeons, to tie into the Undead themes we've seen lately. So that the youn Oubliette may live out her best lift as the Vigilante Summoner, the Grim Ossuary!!!
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Dopplegangers in particular are going to appeal to me real strong. I loved the Changelings from Eberron and espionage/political intrigue are some of my favorite stories.
That said: Monstrous ancestries have been a thing I've been obsessed with since at least Savage Species (D&D 3e). So. I might be an easy sell. :)
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So, had a random thought today. Mongrelmen, or Mongrelfolk as they'll likely be renamed, are the result of adaptation and hybridization of different creatures, typically through breeding, but possibly by other means as well.
So I got to thinking, how would they work if made playable? Would we simply have a baseline kind of Ancestry that has Heritages or Feats that tie them to other Ancestries? Would they be a Heritage themselves? Or is there a possibility we could see a mechanic that allows a player to take two or more options and mix them together? I'm legitimately curious.
Also, I toyed with the idea of a name change for them, given that mongrel can be taken in a derogatory manner. Hybrid immediately comes to mind, but 5e has Simic Hybrids, and I'm not sure they wouldn't be compared if named as such. I did stumble across the word "Mixling", which seemed least offensive out of a number of other options. Then I though maybe spelling it Myxling, or even just calling them Myx, to give the name some uniqueness to it.
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I seem to recall mention by someone in Paizo the unlikelihood of bringing mongrelfolk back in any capacity. Might have been James Jacobs. Not an official stance obviously but it seems there's a measure of disinterest in reexploring the concept as an element of Golarion's lore.
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I seem to recall mention by someone in Paizo the unlikelihood of bringing mongrelfolk back in any capacity. Might have been James Jacobs. Not an official stance obviously but it seems there's a measure of disinterest in reexploring the concept as an element of Golarion's lore.
Oh boo. I really like the mongrelfolk, even though the name is a little tasteless.
Reminded me of the brave Deformed warriors from Gandahar (aka, Light Years).
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I seem to recall mention by someone in Paizo the unlikelihood of bringing mongrelfolk back in any capacity. Might have been James Jacobs. Not an official stance obviously but it seems there's a measure of disinterest in reexploring the concept as an element of Golarion's lore.
So... 3PP opportunity?
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On the other hand, if you wanted a 2e-canon look at a not too dissimilar look checkout the umasi, or "harvestmen" of the Mwangi Expanse. In my own game I've been contemplating replacing the mongrelfolk of Carrion Crown with a group of umasi instead, tailoring the lore to suit my designs.
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That's a shame. I quite like the Mongrelfolk and their lore. They are also one of the few people in the Darklands that aren't wholly evil as a society.
But, what can you do.
In other news, BattleZoo Ancestries: Slimes is going to be a thing; for all you slimey slugs out there. :p
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Dou-Bral post.
I'm am very likely alone here, but I would love to see an Ancestry or Heritage based on classical pig Orcs. I know that Roll For Combat's Indigo Isles AP is going to have the pig-like Orpoks, which I'm happy to have; something akin to more traditional Orcs I think would be kind of fun. For me at least. I am currently emulating this with a pig/boar Beastkin Orc I'm tossing around atm. Would love something more official. I've had an idea in my head for a bit of Tian Orcs being more pig faced, inspired by Zhu Bajie from Journey to the West.
In other news, it seems the Intelligent Weapon from BattleZoo will have a wielder, which seems interesting. I imagine it will be similar to how Dungeons have Avatars that can be of any Ancestry. So perhaps one could be an Intelligent Nine-Toothed Rake, wielded by a pig Orc/Orpok, and have Feat options that allow you to benefit from your wielders own Ancestry abilities. :D
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That seems fun to me!
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I’m very happy for the Minotaur coming through Battlezoo’s offerings, but my big draw to Pathfinder is how much I like Golarion. I want to see what’s up with Nuar, and the tensions of a people so assumed to be demon-tainted!
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I'd love to see the Nuar make an appearance; but the timeline for them may be off I think. They simply didn't exist in Golarion for some time. Granted, that could easily change. After all, neither did the Stheno. I'd wager that any official Minotaur we see may have Nuar as a Heritage perhaps; if we dont see the Nuar themselves. Just my guess.
The cool thing about all the BattleZoo Ancestries, imo, is they so far all exist in Golarion. While having an on stage exploration for them would be nice, I don't think it would be too hard to explain why this PC is a Minotaur than it is to explain why someone else is say a Goblin or Hobgoblin. They are the exception to their largely vile (or misunderstood) society.
Now, if we somehow see Warforged or Dragonborn in BattleZoo, I'd likely need more of an in-universe explination as to why. ^^
That's just me though.
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Also: Sempai noticed me! :D
/end cringe behavior
Lol
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A dinosaur race like the saurials.
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A dinosaur race like the saurials.
Any specific dinosaur in mind? Or would you prefer that each Heritage cover a specific option?
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Dou-Bral post.
Stheno are the tenth revealed Ancestry for BattleZoo Ancestries: Year of Monsters.
This one is the only one so far that I'm a little on the fence about. If only because I was so looking forward to seeing them officially. There is still a rather large stigma on 3rd party products at tables after all. Granted, this in no way prevents them from ever being introduced in Golarion. But it does make me worry a bit, given that they were Mark's creation and I'm not wholly certain Paizo will continue to pursue the idea of making them playable.
That said, their creation myth for the BattleZoo setting seems largely parallel to the one in Golarion. A recently risen people, originating from a Euryale who, through the help of a Goddess, gave rise to their people, birthed from the hundred snakes that made up her hair. So, even if we don't see them officially, their is more than enough lore established in Golarion already to place them in the world without much fuss. And Mark has stated that if they ever do make it into a PF2 book, they will make adjustments to the BattleZoo version so that they both work seamlessly together.
Still very excited. I can't wait to see the last two. Mark, if you are listening, and haven't finished the Leshy Dragons, I'm just saying, a Dragon based on dragon fruits and dragon chives seems very fitting as an option. I'd call it a Harvest Dragon. Just a suggestion. Lol
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So, not exactly a new ancestry, but for the elemental versatile heritages I would like some more feats tying them to other elemental beings. Feats that give a Sylph connected to Cloud Dragons some Draconic abilities or an Ifrit descended from azers crafting abilities. Things like that.
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Honestly, I would just modify fleshwarps to cover this. Given the intentional vagueness of the current fleshwarp lore, I can easily see their pathfinder lore being covered.So, had a random thought today. Mongrelmen, or Mongrelfolk as they'll likely be renamed, are the result of adaptation and hybridization of different creatures, typically through breeding, but possibly by other means as well.
So I got to thinking, how would they work if made playable? Would we simply have a baseline kind of Ancestry that has Heritages or Feats that tie them to other Ancestries? Would they be a Heritage themselves? Or is there a possibility we could see a mechanic that allows a player to take two or more options and mix them together? I'm legitimately curious.
Also, I toyed with the idea of a name change for them, given that mongrel can be taken in a derogatory manner. Hybrid immediately comes to mind, but 5e has Simic Hybrids, and I'm not sure they wouldn't be compared if named as such. I did stumble across the word "Mixling", which seemed least offensive out of a number of other options. Then I though maybe spelling it Myxling, or even just calling them Myx, to give the name some uniqueness to it.
Mongrelfolk are one of the groups of descendants of the Azlanti who hid underground to escape the destruction of Earthfall. Their ability to breed with almost any humanoid creature, adding new mutations with every generation, has led these creatures to quickly adapt and survive the dangers of Nar-Voth.
Looking over the feats and heritages offered, you're most of the way there, so the modification might be simply adding a dozen more options to cover what is not yet included, like Sound Mimicry.
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Well, BattleZoo's dragons really won me over, (I'm looking forward to seeing the new products!), and it saddens me to see that many GMs don't accept third-party material, (cowards, or as we call in Brazil, "Nutella"... ,just a personal thought...), but officially, my favorite: drow!
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Well, BattleZoo's dragons really won me over, (I'm looking forward to seeing the new products!), and it saddens me to see that many GMs don't accept third-party material, (cowards, or as we call in Brazil, "Nutella"... ,just a personal thought...), but officially, my favorite: drow!
3rd party is tricky. Some of it is great. (I'd count the battlezoo stuff in this). Some of it is poorly formed, ill-thought-out, and balance-destroying. Many GMs don't want to have to put in the effort to figure out which is which. That's not a flaw on their part.
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3rd party is tricky. Some of it is great. (I'd count the battlezoo stuff in this). Some of it is poorly formed, ill-thought-out, and balance-destroying.
Yeah but that describes first party stuff too.
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Yeah but that describes first party stuff too.
3rd party is tricky. Some of it is great. (I'd count the battlezoo stuff in this). Some of it is poorly formed, ill-thought-out, and balance-destroying.
Not in PF2. Not really. The balance in the base game is pretty tight, especially if you're not digging too hard into the stuff from individual APs without earning it in the appropriate way from the AP in question while playing that AP.
...and quality is both subjective and relative... but the mainline Paizo stuff does pretty well there, too.
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As someone who up until now has been largely against 3pp, I can agree it is definitely subjective based on balance. In this case, for me, BattleZoo being handled in part my Mark is the key reason why I'm wholly invested, and the reason why I've become more open and receptive to looking into 3pp. Same with Logan's Pnoll Ancestry.
I'm still very much exercising on the side of caution with most products. Like, the only other 3pp I'm interested in, atm, is NoNats products. But, should I find it I'll balanced or too out of line with Pathfinder's lore, I may not use it.
But I am certainly a lot more open to exploring unofficial content than I used to be.
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More on topic, I just learned that what I assume to be the entire list of Indigo Isles Ancestries are listed in the books description, and they all seem interesting.
Living coral-folk Chochori, mischievous flying fey Galtzagorri, pirate parrot-folk G’mayun, warrior ram-folk Hardiggan, spiritual rock-folk Kragrak, and the hard-working pig-folk Orpok; as well as the the charred Wildfire Leshy Heritage. You can see a few of them on the cover and art and I love them.
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A dinosaur race like the saurials.Any specific dinosaur in mind? Or would you prefer that each Heritage cover a specific option?
I think the heritage could cover an option.
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I think the heritage could cover an option.A dinosaur race like the saurials.Any specific dinosaur in mind? Or would you prefer that each Heritage cover a specific option?
I recall that many lizardfolk believe that they are descended from dinosaurs.
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I hope that if we get dinosaur people they are feathery.