What Ancestries are you still craving?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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I’m not a Starfinder gal, but the touch that the Lashunta dismantled their own pretty gross sex = gender = subspecies stuff with the hard work of generations of activism is really lovely. I’d sooner see that cultural struggle playing out in Pathfinder time and be an ongoing effort, rather than the retcon - but I’ll honestly take whatever approach gets them in my grubby little hands.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Meanwhile, Ikeshti go hard on the biological determinism. Always kind of creeped me out.


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Squiggit wrote:
Meanwhile, Ikeshti go hard on the biological determinism. Always kind of creeped me out.

That got walked back some in their most recent PF2 appearance, thankfully.


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Squiggit wrote:
Meanwhile, Ikeshti go hard on the biological determinism. Always kind of creeped me out.

I don't mind the idea of biological determinism in and of itself. There's some stuff that biology straight-up determines sometimes. Just watching the kind of stark shifts in behavior and priorities for myself and my wife from "unattached" to "married" to "wife pregnant" to "we now have kids" has made that one pretty clear. There was some stuff in there that was clearly not just culturally driven. The body puts hooks in the soul.

The part that bugs me about the Ikeshti (just now reading up on them in their Starfinder form) is that some of that stuff makes no sense. Ikeshti kill each other after mating, leading to a 50/50 chance of the spawn having no one to look over them. This makes no sense. Ikeshti who don't breed fast enough turn into giant monsters who threaten civilization and must be put down. This makes no sense. It's clearly meant to be biologically driven, and yet there is no way that this assists in the survival of the species. It's just kind of gratuitous.


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Was rummaging around for Reign of Winter info and discovered that Adlets live on Triaxus! I've already made the case for them in the past, but any Ancestry that makes running an extraplanetary campaign easier to theme is a positive in my book.

The hint that they're related to Kitsune has got my hopes up way too high for them becoming playable someday.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I included them in that list, if you glossed over them. Was going to also include them in a Crown of the World post.

I love the Adlets and I am always open to more Ancestries. Personally, if I had to choose, I would want Rougarou or even Worg (With a Winter Wolf Heritage option) before Adlets. But that is my brain operating off the likely false assumption that there is some sort of arbitrary limit on the number of Ancestries based off certain themes. ^^'

I've always been more interested in Rougarou's a lot.more than Adlets. Plus, if I'm being honest, I'm not to keen on their new facial features.

As for Warg, always really liked them as well. The idea of playing a quadrupedal creature has always interested me and wolves are my favorite animal. Not to mention all the RPG's with wolves/dogs as party members. And given that Rimewargs (what I call Winter Wolves) are a variants of Wargs, I think it would be better to have them as a Heritage option with some really neat Feats to go with it.


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I wonder why we haven't gotten a people with sequential hermaphroditism (at some point in your life, you go from one to the other, and maybe back again later) when we've got several people who are really about the sexual dimorphism.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I can't recall any people who do that, but Chimera do this actually. They are sociaaly matriarchal; so if a male becomes the leader of their pride, they'll become female, while the previous leader will become a male. It is an interesting interaction; however, they were originally hermaphrodites. So I'm curious why they didn't just keep that lore.

That is just from Pathfinder. I haven't dove nearly as deep into Starfinder. So there could be an example there.


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I am curious how PF2 Lashunta would look, mechanically. The sex/clade alternate ability scores would be unprecedented territory for Heritages, I think - we haven't had a Heritage that altered your Ancestry Boons and Flaws yet, which surprises me.* Assuming that's ground Paizo's unwilling to tackle, they might just make it a core part of the Ancestry (as part of character creation, choose which of these two+ statlines your character has). I hope they don't just go the route of +Cha +Free and leave the previous lore as flavor, I think it adds interesting grit.

Other than clades, things seem simple enough. Message as a psychic occult cantrip seems likely, as the devs seem a little shy about handing out telepathy for some reason. Get a nice mix of psychic, diplomacy, primal goodies (specifically animal handling, with their cool lizard mounts), and just generally being a handsome Venusian.

*My kingdom for a Kobold Heritage that makes you Medium and swaps you over to +STR +CHA +Free -Dex. Call it Nest Protector, call it Swolebold, call it Dragonborn, I don't care, but it would make so many people happy.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I could see them easily just having two different stat arrays, as Starfinder does, which would be pretty cool. I am fairly certain the gender castes will be retconned; so they could simply use the stats Starfinder has for the Damaya and Korasha. Then, they could make a series of Heritage options tied to each. In fact, those Heritages would likely decide which castes you belong to. So instead of you choosing your stats and being locked into one caste or they other; I feel like your choice in Heriatge would determine your stat array. If that makes sense. It'll effectively work both ways regardless. Then they could also have various Feats for each caste as well.
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As an aside, I don't believe I've ever mentioned the one Ancestry that I actually, desperately want to see added. Like, if given the singular choice to include them and no one else, I'd jump on the opportunity. I really want to see the whatever the Paizo Golem is made into an Ancestry. Heck, I'd take a Golem Ancestry with a Heritage for the Paizo Golem. My personal headcanon is that they are a specific form of Golem or Construct, and one of them is named Paizo.

EDIT: How would you feel if Wyvarans were opened to all Ancestries, so we can have a Med "Dragon" option?

Radiant Oath

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
*My kingdom for a Kobold Heritage that makes you Medium and swaps you over to +STR +CHA +Free -Dex. Call it Nest Protector, call it Swolebold, call it Dragonborn, I don't care, but it would make so many people happy.

Funny, I was JUST re-reading my copy of the Creature Codex, looked at the Swolbold illustration and thought to myself "that'd be fun to play as...if only there was a way to make a kobold permanently Medium." The closest thing I could think of was Giant Instinct Barbarian, and while the idea of a smol dragon friend suddenly growing to King-Mogaru-size is hilariously awesome, it's unfortunately temporary. :(


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I doubt we would ever see the advent of Medium-sized base Kobold. Unlike some other cases, their size, imo, is pretty important to them as creatures. Having some means of achieving it would be nice though.

One solution I could see is a Background; one to allow a size increase, and one to allow a decrease. So, for those Ancestry who only have one size option, that could give them a legal 1st level out that wouldn't be out of line, imo. Suddenly, Humans and Elves are Small, Kobolds and Halflings are Medium. And you can ask a Goloma "why the 'Large' face?"
I would probably limit this to no bigger than Large and no smaller than Tiny, to prevent things like Huge Minotaur or... well, there isn't anything smaller than Tiny. But yea. I'd probably also add a clause in there that maybe allows a PC to take it for free alongside another Background, at the GM's discretion, and with some sort of caveat.

If we ever see the likes of Half-Giants could allow for this as well.

One solution that is available could be the Beastkin Heritage. Make something like a Kobold Lizardkin, or some other similimar reptile, and then take the Dire Form Feat. It won't come online for a while, it'll make you Large instead of Medium, and requires one to be in Hybrid Form. But you could just fluff it as oversize Kobold.


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Do folks think Azers have enough depth to be a full Ancestry, or is an Ifrit Dwarf close enough for government paperwork?


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keftiu wrote:
Do folks think Azers have enough depth to be a full Ancestry, or is an Ifrit Dwarf close enough for government paperwork?

I'm personally fine with Ifrit Dwarf but certainly wouldn't say no to a full Ancestry.


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keftiu wrote:
Do folks think Azers have enough depth to be a full Ancestry, or is an Ifrit Dwarf close enough for government paperwork?

Hmm... I think they have potential, but I've used them in my games before and despite their relevance in the session, the moment I mentioned their talent with metalwork and showed them a picture of them, they were reduced to fire dwarves. :B

To be honest, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing — they do come off as very dwarf-ey. If we were to get downright elemental ancestries though, I'd be a little more inclied towards less analagous people, like the Magmin! What I'd really love in terms of ancestries from RoE, is something like an elemental essence, that would allow us to grow and shape ourselves as we grew with power — maybe a little akin to the amorphous elementals of older editions, but most customizable (and not necessarily amorphous).


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Have Rougarou been retconned? I know the 1e incarnation of Skinwalkers was quietly phased out for being unfaithful to the Navajo myth, but I don't know if there's similar concerns for using the Cajun name. I know people want a non-Shoony canine Ancestry, and I'm always excited to see more of peoples in Arcadia, but I'm not sure that they still exist in 2e canon.

Dark Archive

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Aren't Cajun descendants of Acadians who are descendants of French? Like rougarou is variant spelling of French loup-garou. Admittedly I know extremely little about this topic, but that's why I'm checking


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

At this point, they haven't been mentioned in 2e. So it is hard to say.

Corvus is correct in some regards. Loup-Garou is often used as an alternate spelling, but is specifically the French name for Werewolves. As Cajuns are decendants of the French, the legend carried over and evolved into Rougarou. All three have essentially become their own creature over time; but the former Loup-Garou and Rougarou are essentially French and Cajun Werewolves respectively.


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Are all Bugbears still serial killers?


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keftiu wrote:
Are all Bugbears still serial killers?

If they all were, I don't think that would make sense since most of the people in their immediate vicinity most of the time would also be Bugbears. This seems like a pretty good recipe for "no more Bugbears" if that were universal.


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Part of me wonders if a Vishkanya, maybe even a Tiefling one, might approximate some of the Drow mechanics while we wait for them to officially come over. Charming and sneaky, fond of poisons… you’re missing the Elf trait and training in hand crossbows, but it feels like a lot of the rest is there.


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Raising my banner once more for wyvarens lest people forget. Me want medium sized dragon person!!!


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WWHsmackdown wrote:
Raising my banner once more for wyvarens lest people forget. Me want medium sized dragon person!!!

I’m hoping they somehow make it into the Impossible Lands book, but I worry we would’ve heard by now if Wyvarans were in the book. They’re cool - and would soothe everyone missing Dragonborn!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Bugbears tend to be misanthropes, keeping to themselves and are generally regarded as being more evil than other Goblininoids.

That said, with the right story hook, they could justify them as playable I think.
----

In side news, Roll For Combat reached their stretch goal for the Doppleborn Versatile Heritage. Can't wit to make the ultimate of infiltrators with a Doppleborn Mimic.

Here's hoping we reach tye Nymphtouched Versatile Heritage as well. ^^


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Ly'ualdre wrote:
Bugbears tend to be misanthropes, keeping to themselves and are generally regarded as being more evil than other Goblininoids.

"We're grumpy loners and keep to ourselves, because we don't think highly of others including others of our own species" seems like a much easier thing to make a playable ancestry than the Drow are. Since Bugbears aren't likely to get a bunch of bad ideas about things from other Bugbears.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Possibly. They are both heavily influenced by Demon worship. We do already have examples of non-evil Drow who weren't antisocial. So Frow precedence exists already. They could do the same thing for Bugbears. Include a community of Bugbears who are either helpful or need help. Then just include some line of narrative that basically says "We aren't all dodgy wankers."

Don't know why, but British Bugbear is hilarious in my head.


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I do think Extinction Curse backfired and just made me feel bad for the Xulgath. There's even a sidebar in one of the books that says some don't worship demon lords at all, their prayers instead answered by Pharasma and Erastil. I think their historic backstory and the potential for varied flavor through all of their weird physical mutability make for surprisingly compelling PC fodder.

Between them and the Sekmin, it seems I have a real weakness for "psychic scaledfolk fallen from ancient greatness."

Dark Archive

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Its kinda weird in that if Aroden didn't do his jerkassery, there is chance that Xulgath empire would have expanded to surface serpentfolk style to take over the world and eat people (alternatively they would have expanded long enough to collapse on themselves due to their gluttonous consumption) but at same time them being sentenced to death by starvation is particularly nasty way for empire to crumble.

I think two of villains in EC really personify xulgath. One of them the self destructive aspect and the one longing for past glory.

But yeah, xulgath have that thing that lot of good villains have: aspect of tragedy to them. Like even though xulgaths were still evil, what they got was extremely pitiful fate.

(but yeah now that we have had level 1-20 xulgath campaign, I think they have bit higher chance of becoming playable ancestry considering xulgath are generally lower level foes anyway)


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The sluglike creature they show at 41:51 in the gencon keynote (https://youtu.be/WAA4xbTcxK8) is one of my favorite pf designs ever and a million times cooler than all the actual announced ancestries. Please make then playable! They could also add to the variety as they could be another slow but bulky ancestry like dwarfs.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I wonder how'd you deal with the stench of xulgath PCs in the party?

After hosting the first half of the Extinction Curse adventure path, I can honestly say that I have not an ounce of pity for those stinking lizards.

Extinction Curse spoiler:
They could have stolen back the aeon orbs and been justified in returning them to their homeland. Such an act likely would have restored some of their former glory. Instead, they opted to destroy the orbs, not only dooming their own civilization, but also that of two entire isles of innocent people--out of sheer spite.

That's the kind of unreasonable evil and depravity you don't shed tears over.


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_shredder_ wrote:
The sluglike creature they show at 41:51 in the gencon keynote (https://youtu.be/WAA4xbTcxK8) is one of my favorite pf designs ever and a million times cooler than all the actual announced ancestries. Please make then playable! They could also add to the variety as they could be another slow but bulky ancestry like dwarfs.

I always support the inclusion of more round friends.

Dark Archive

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Ravingdork wrote:

I wonder how'd you deal with the stench of xulgath PCs in the party?

After hosting the first half of the Extinction Curse adventure path, I can honestly say that I have not an ounce of pity for those stinking lizards.

** spoiler omitted **

That's the kind of unreasonable evil and depravity you don't shed tears over.

Did ye read entire AP yet?

I mean that is the thing I mentioned:
That these Xulgath are led by half-fiend prophet of the demon lord who doesn't care about things like that while in final book there is faction of psychic xulgath who would prefer to steal or negotiate for orbs to rebuild their darklands empire. They are both evil, but they demonstrate different factors of what it means to be xulgath and the chosen of their god is the one in control because of their sheer power and latter are grudgingly working for all mighty idiot because they don't have power to oppose them.

All of Sarvel's Xulgath faction aren't exactly sharpest tools in the shed. Their prophet has told them that their gods' will is to destroy the orbs, so to none of them it occurs that might not be best option for them. First one is explicitly not very smart, second one is purely out to create her own personal kingdom and third one is fanatically loyal to the cause.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'll admit I've been pleasantly surprised and pleased by the sheer breadth of ancestries we have at our disposal - there really is something for almost every kind of campaign at this point, especially when you add versatile heritages into the mix.
I do agree it would be nice to get some more support for non-core ancestries, or at least have them come out with some more options at the start to account for how specific or niche they are, since that means that they're less likely to get stuff. I mean, unless we get another AP/Lost Omens book set in Mwangi or other nearby places, we likely aren't gonna get much more for Gnolls or Grippli or Anadi for a bit. But I'm also aware that the current "give options only when they're fitting for the book" is a fine way of doing things for the Lost Omens line. I'm not parched for new Kitsune feats or anything, especially when there's plenty of quality Infinite content I could use for home games.

As for new ancestries? Some proper merfolk would be awesome for an underwater adventure line, especially if there's more than just the typical fish-tails (scylla are cool, yo). Maybe even a versatile heritage for aboleths/aberration type? They seem to like being in the briny deep dark.

More creatures with non bipedal forms would be neat. Snake-leggeds or centaurs or such. Always interesting to see the kinds of tradeoffs you might get for non-standard movement.

Thriae are neat, especially since you could argue for both a Thriae that is still linked to the hive or one that is entirely independent. I think some of them have that four-arm problem, but if we're assuming they're tackling gameplay challenges like this as they come, then I wouldn't be too worried about that.

There is one big group of PC possibilities I would be interested in. We have outsider heritages for the aligned planes, the elemental planes, but what about native outsiders (remember that typing)? Like Kami, for example. It'd be cool if there were heritages or ancestries based upon those spirit-like entities of the Material Plane.


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I'd certainly like to see playable Maftets whenever we turn back to the Golden Road.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I know not many people are into 3rd Party, but I'd be remise if I didn't mention the Centaur stretch goal for BattleZoo was revealed. It iiiiis rather far up the list. Given the rate of pledges, not sure we will make it.
---

As a side, and much more important than playable Centaurs: one of the stretch goals will force Mark Seifter to sing a Eldamon parody of the PokéRap.....


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ly'ualdre wrote:

I know not many people are into 3rd Party, but I'd be remise if I didn't mention the Centaur stretch goal for BattleZoo was revealed. It iiiiis rather far up the list. Given the rate of pledges, not sure we will make it.

---

As a side, and much more important than playable Centaurs: one of the stretch goals will force Mark Seifter to sing a Eldamon parody of the PokéRap.....

Granted, the current rate won't make it... but thankfully, the highest rate of pledges come right after the start, and right before the end of the campaign.

I have a good feeling we'll get at least to the centaurs goal. Not sure if we'll get to the other Eldamon elements, though. Thankfully, Mark has said anything not reached for this KS will likely be made later, once they do another appropriate KS (or just naturally expand a concept, like with the Eldamon elements).


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keftiu wrote:
Other than clades, things seem simple enough. Message as a psychic occult cantrip seems likely, as the devs seem a little shy about handing out telepathy for some reason.

I suspect it's because telepathy is one of those tools that doesn't seem all that impactful until the party realizes how important instantaneous communication is. There are times during a game where you want the party to make quick decisions to keep the momentum of a session going, and telepathy's ability for them all to communicate and have a full conversation can really drag down the pacing. I know because a party in a 1E game I'm running give themselves permanencied telepathy for exactly that reason.

Changing full telepathy to something like Message does at least require that the messages be short, so full conversations can't occur during a time when the focus should probably be elsewhere. YMMV, each table has different tolerances for how much chatter they're happy with, but that's my guess.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Also, in light of Rage of Elements, had a few ideas for some potential Ancestries; organized by Plane.

Spoiler:

  • Elemental Planes - Starting with all the Planes collectively, there are FOUR constants amongst (presumably) each of the Elemental Planes: Genies, Primal Elementals, Mephits, and Veela. Each of these work great as "choose tour own element" options, with Heritages determining what subspecies or element you are. Out of these four, I feel Veela and Mephit have a better shot to get in, if only because I think a lot of people would be bumbed at an reduced power to the Genie or Primal Elemental. I think they would all be very fun additions though.
  • Plane of Air - This one is the oddball out. There aren't many natives to the Plane that are interesting enough (to me) to see as playable. Invisible Stalkers immediately come to mind, but are all but impossible, with their permanent invisibility. So and playable options from here would likely be new I think. One idea I had was maybe a relative to Invisible Stalkers that have a limited ability to go Invisible at some point. Also considered adapting the Kinnara as a new creature native to the Plane, as their forms are cool to me. But, we will have to see what Paizo comes up with here I think.
  • Plane of Earth - Pech, Xiomorn, and Xorn seem like good fits here. Pech would be interesting, since they are Fey native to the Plane; and Xorn have always interested me. Altough, their three arms and legs may be problematic. Xiomorn are a bit of a stretch, given how important their history on Golarion; but could be interesting additions. They have all but abandoned Golarion and the Plane of Earth, moving on to other planets. But, there do exist individuals or small communities on both Planes, so maybe. Could have Heritage options for both the Keepers and Builders.
  • Plane of Fire - By far the easiest Plane to sort out: Azers, Salamanders, and even Magmin make compelling options here. The first two are by far some of the most popular Denizens of the Plane. Azer have a loooong history of servitude under the yok of the Efreet; under a contract that is just about up. I can see plenty of Azer either becoming free adventurers at this point, or opening conflict with their former masters. Salamanders share a similiar fate. Magmin seem to more or less keep to themselves, as they have pretty significant trust issues. There is also the potential of whatever kind of creature the Mother of Serpents tends to transform other into. They don't become monsterous or bloodthirsty, but are sometimes compelled to complete tasks for her. So, they could probably still live relatively normal lives.
  • Planes of Water - The Boundless Sea is also a little difficult, due to the fact that many of the residents mentioned have immigrated from the Material Plane. They could certainly introduce the likes of Merfolk or Sahuagin; but this list is more about those native to each Plane. That said, the Triton come to mind. They were once from the Plane of Water, but have since moved to the Material Plane; I think they count enough in having once been native residents. The Murajau are native to the Plane, and would open up a world of options if included. Centauric Ancestries are something many want to see, so they could kick that door open. Otherwise, this could be a good place to introduce another new creature.
  • Geniekin - Mentioned more for the fact that they are bound to get new options; and, they immediately make any other Ancestry viable residents of each Plane.
  • BONUS - Petitioners. For a while, I've had this desire to see them made playable. The Heritage system makes it immediately possible to take the base Ancestry and have one choose from the plethora of planar souls living through their afterlife. Each of the Elemental Planes have an Elemental Pneuma. They could make for some pretty interesting storytelling.

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    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
    Ly'ualdre wrote:
    BONUS - Petitioners. For a while, I've had this desire to see them made playable. The Heritage system makes it immediately possible to take the base Ancestry and have one choose from the plethora of planar souls living through their afterlife. Each of the Elemental Planes have an Elemental Pneuma. They could make for some pretty interesting storytelling. .

    I like this idea.


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

    throwing a real long shot out there, but girtibilu, they are both large and hard to interface with humanoid gear but i like my scorpion centaurs, they are cool as hell


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
    AnimatedPaper wrote:
    Ly'ualdre wrote:
    BONUS - Petitioners. For a while, I've had this desire to see them made playable. The Heritage system makes it immediately possible to take the base Ancestry and have one choose from the plethora of planar souls living through their afterlife. Each of the Elemental Planes have an Elemental Pneuma. They could make for some pretty interesting storytelling. .
    I like this idea.

    Thanks. I think it could make for some really different story opportunities, especially depending on the kind of Petitioner. Like, maybe you one of Abaddon's Hunted. Now tou have a campaign that is all about surviving one of the most dangerous place in the Multiverse. Or being one of the Damned and trying to excape from Hell.

    There are a few that don't reeeeally work, like the Abyss Larvae and maybe the Maelstrom's Shapeless. But the idea of playing out a characters afterlife seems fun.

    And, if you include something like BattleZoo, you can then do a followup adventure where you completed your transformation into a Demon or Oni, or what ever layer options they may make.


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    With some recent Centaur talk, I'm warming up to them - but do we think there's any hope of them having less-human faces? I know that's sort of their whole deal, but plopping half a regular guy on top of a horse has always looked a little silly to me.

    I'm spoiled by Guild Wars, where the most human-looking Centaurs still have horns, and the wildest-looking ones have lion heads (with horns).

    Dark Archive

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    I am curious: With anadi, do aranea have reason to exist in setting anymore?

    I mean, they might as well be anadi's creepier totesnot!Arachne cousins <_<


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

    Mythical creatures are kind of supposed to go against our common sensibilities. I probably wouldn't do much more than giving Centaur elongated ears or maybe equine-esque faces (which I'm personally less inclined to do, given my disdain for the new Adlet faces). At a certain point, when making changes, you have to ask yourself is this a Centaur or an entirely different creature? Given the myriad of cultures and myths involving similiar creatures, it is a fine line I think. At which point, why not just have both?

    ---

    I think Aranea and Anadi have plenty differences, but the biggest one here is their inspiration. Aranea are based on Arachne of Greek myth, while Anadi are based on the the god Anansi of Akan folklore. In this case, Anadi make more sense as natives to the Expanse than Aranea do; even though they likely also live there. It's maybe important to consider what makes them different rather than what makes them similiar. They are two different people; just as the Ikeshti, Iruxi, and Xulgath are, even though they are all reptilian-like.


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    Ly'ualdre wrote:
    Aranea are based on Arachne of Greek myth, while Anadi are based on the the goddess Anansi of Akan folklore.

    Quick nit - I'd thought Anansi was male?


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
    Sanityfaerie wrote:
    Ly'ualdre wrote:
    Aranea are based on Arachne of Greek myth, while Anadi are based on the the goddess Anansi of Akan folklore.
    Quick nit - I'd thought Anansi was male?

    You are correct. I use certain words so often on my phone that it defaults to them at times. Which is why I usually try to check my posts beforehand, which I didn't do here. Lol


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    Formally put me on team Centaur. They’ve been displaced significantly by humans across Golarion - I want to see stories from their perspective. Their lives are bound to be wildly different between Iobaria, Cheliax, Kortos, and further abroad.

    At a quick glance at AoN, 1e sources describe shamans who tend to sacred green spaces with the ashes of their clan’s dead and armored elite warriors who ally with elves or dwarves for equipment those peoples can forge. I’m sold!


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    keftiu wrote:

    Formally put me on team Centaur. They’ve been displaced significantly by humans across Golarion - I want to see stories from their perspective. Their lives are bound to be wildly different between Iobaria, Cheliax, Kortos, and further abroad.

    At a quick glance at AoN, 1e sources describe shamans who tend to sacred green spaces with the ashes of their clan’s dead and armored elite warriors who ally with elves or dwarves for equipment those peoples can forge. I’m sold!

    Went digging for further 2e info in the Absalom book and the relevant Extinction Curse article, and it really reaffirms this for me.

    Both texts, but especially Absalom, City of Lost Omens constantly repeat "the centaurs, the harpies, and the minotaurs" in varied order, almost as if it were a mantra, when describing the residents of Kortos's wilder reaches. These 'monsters' are "found almost everywhere that humans are not and could be said to be the true rulers of portions of the Starstone Isle."

    Voradni Voon's failed siege transpired close to 5,000 years ago, meaning they've called the Starstone Isle home roughly three times longer than anywhere called "Cheliax" has existed - which says to me that they deserve to be described in equal detail as any inhabitant of Absalom, and with a perspective that carries equal weight to readers.

    The centaurs have been cast as marginalized indigenous peoples in Cheliax and potential allies in both Iobaria and on Kortos, while the Bestiary presents them as Neutral and plenty reasonable; the only thing holding them back is mechanical concerns, it would seem. Minotaurs are complicated by their firm ties to Baphomet, a demon lord, but both sources here present reasonable and/or Baphomet-rejecting minotaurs, while Nuar Spiritskin's Medium-size stature could easily be a road to PC playability the way it has in Starfinder. Harpies are the toughest of the bunch to rehabilitate, with neither text having any interest in them other than as cruel monsters in service to Pazuzu, but even the Bestiary (which describes them as "filthy," eaters of humanoids, and Chaotic Evil) notes that some buck this trend.

    I want the Hellenistic monsterfolk of Kortos! They're overdue a seat at the table, both in the politics of their home and as adventuring heroes.


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    Even with the Baphomet connection, let's look at what he has to offer:

    Edicts: Confuse paths and roads, outwit your foes instead of overpowering them, pace labyrinths

    Anathema: Kill something that cannot significantly harm you, bargain with Asmodeus

    That's... honestly not terrible? I mean, the bit where they habitually muck with the transportation infrastructure isn't ideal, but the rest of it seems like it's something you could work with.

    Personally, I think there's an interesting opportunity here. Like, sure, these people have been worshiping demon lords... but they've been worshiping those same demon lords for thousands of years. Regardless of how they started, they will have functional, fairly robust societies now, because if you leave people alone for thousands of years without major critical events to destabilize them, eventually the society they settle into winds up as functional and robust. Moreover, those three societies will have developed in communication with one another. So... what *does* a long-term viable society based around the worship of Pazuzu look like? What kind of traditions and rituals are there for diplomacy and trade between the centaurs and the minotaurs? We have most of the minotaurs following Baphomet and most of the harpies following Pazuzu, but some few follow Lamashtu, and surely *that* relationship gets ugly. In a system like this, it's not just going to be that those that follow a demon lord are therefore inherently Bad People. If you can look at it from the inside, it's going to be at least a little bit more nuanced than that.

    Of course, level of EVIL is not actually the question at hand here, unless we get an AP where minotaur/centaur/harpy are our only options, and we're functioning entirely inside of those societies. The question is going to be more how willing/able they are to engage with the outside world, leave their homeland behind, embrace new ways fo being, and get along in societies that are not their own. That's a different question entirely.

    Oh, and harpy flight. That's going to be an issue too, seeing how harpies who can't fly are basically nonfunctional.


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    Sanityfaerie wrote:
    (some very insightful thoughts on Baphpomet's cult and longtime cultural demon worship)

    I hadn't realized how mild Baphomet's E&A were, that's fascinating - and he allows CN followers! You can totally imagine a society built around those pillars that prioritizes cleverness and only using your strength against the worthy.

    A few relevant quotes from the aforementioned sources:

    Extinction Curse #6 wrote:

    This contingent has spread in the millennia since, with centaurs forming largely peaceful enclaves among the island’s sparse woodlands, minotaurs lording over desperate townships of similarly shunned creatures, and harpies flocking to serve various mystics and cults of personality.

    ---
    Various centaur tribes claim the mountains’ foothills, some preferring to herd sheep and cattle while others tend toward raiding and trading with more settled peoples. The Zel-Vana confederation to the southwest consists of about a dozen centaur families on cool-but-polite terms with their human neighbors, but the Zur-Kelivas confederation of the east are known to be demon-worshippers and vampires.
    ---
    The 87th Yellow-Eyed King has been working to forge the harpies’ loose alliance into a genuine nation[...]
    ---
    There are some 40 different minotaur droves in the region, ranging from modest raiding groups such as the Gorebreathers to large and sophisticated droves like the Ivory Sons, whose settlement of Faer’s Labyrinth deals regularly with Nuar Spiritskin’s embassy in Absalom. Most of the minotaurs are worshippers of the demon lord Baphomet, though that does not stop them from making the occasional deal with humans. The Lord of Minotaurs is cunning and patient, and his priests are known to say that “the Beast takes his time” — which more-agreeable minotaurs interpret as a stamp of approval on peaceful trade.
    ---
    Generations of Earthsong minotaurs have lived between the “arms” of two volcanic ridges on the Weeping Grandfather’s northern slope. One of the more peaceful droves, the Earthsong pushed aside their priests of Baphomet long ago in favor of a hereditary line of earth-sorcerers. Now, the Earthsong farm the rich volcanic soil of their ancestral lands and craft intricate trinkets of bone and rock for trade with other communities.

    And from Absalom:

    Lost Omens: Absalom wrote:

    Eagle Garrison scouts traveling through the Kortos Mounts report that several minotaur clans there have been meeting regularly in unexpected diplomatic talks. The most recent gathering was between the Broken Horn, Children of the Labyrinth, and Gorebreather clans at a ritual site atop Shrieking Peak. The clans captured one of the scouts, Pyl Gillseed, during the gathering, but released him unharmed and tasked him with returning to Absalom with an open invitation to the next gathering in a week’s time.

    ---
    One of the rank and file, Pyl Gillseed, has befriended various centaurs and minotaurs while out in the wild, leading his compatriots to wonder about his intentions. In the meantime, Pyl struggles vainly to convince the First Guard that minotaurs don’t have to be driven off every time they come near a settlement.

    With the Centaurs largely trying to get along, the Minotaurs behaving themselves and openly inviting outsiders to their political meets, and even the Harpies trying to build a proper nation, I'm convinced that they're all "people."

    As for Harpy flight, I'm personally content with them borrowing the Strix method; a Feat chain that starts at 5 and ends at 13, with a sidebar giving less balance-concerned tables permission to make it unlimited from the outset.

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