Let's Talk Reloading

[Cellion]

So the gunslinger's firearms have a consistent 1 action cost to reload and don't hold magazines of rounds. This means you're going to be spending a not-insignificant portion of your turns reloading, especially if you go with the Way of the Sniper or Pistolero. Its a pretty steep cost that tends to make crossbows unappealing for most characters in the Core Rules.

The class has several ways to lessen the burden, some inherited from Ranger.

Risky Reload saves you the action cost, but introduces a misfire chance.

Firearm Ace (Ranger's Crossbow Ace) gives you some bonus damage on your next attack after reloading

Quick Draw saves you the action cost by not reloading at all, but only makes sense if you have doubling rings and a steady supply of one-handed weapons.

Running Reload lets you combine reloading with moving, giving some action economy value.

Reloading Strike (6th level) for the Way of the Drifter saves you the reload action if you're alternating melee and ranged attacks.

Since basically every gunslinger will be looking to pick up some way to lessen the burden of reloading, should one or more of these feats be baked into the base chassis of the Gunslinger? (This is a similar issue to the bomber alchemist that has a number of almost mandatory feats)

------
Another thought:

Way of the Pistolero description wrote:

You might leave a hand free, fight with twin pistols, or duel at any range like a musketeer with pistol and blade.

While fighting with one hand free is clear enough, it is very difficult for the Pistolero to fight with twin pistols or with a pistol and blade. Without a free hand and without access to Reloading Strike, you don't have a way to take the Interact action needed to reload without first dropping one weapon.

Dual wielding Pistolero have one somewhat awkward solution to this problem: Doubling rings and Quick Draw with a steady supply of already loaded weapons. However, the better solution would be if the class had access to Dual-Weapon Reload from the existing archetype.

[RenegadeDuck]

Yeah this was sort of my first gripe I could find. I loved the idea of the sword and pistol gunslinger for my old 1e character, but the reloading thing is just crippling, but if they could get some version of Dual-Weapon Reload at maybe...level 2? I think that would ease my frustration with the build a lot. Otherwise way of the wanderer isn't worth playing unless you start at level 6.

[shroudb]

Cellion wrote:

So the gunslinger's firearms have a consistent 1 action cost to reload and don't hold magazines of rounds. This means you're going to be spending a not-insignificant portion of your turns reloading, especially if you go with the Way of the Sniper or Pistolero. Its a pretty steep cost that tends to make crossbows unappealing for most characters in the Core Rules.

The class has several ways to lessen the burden, some inherited from Ranger.

Risky Reload saves you the action cost, but introduces a misfire chance.

Firearm Ace (Ranger's Crossbow Ace) gives you some bonus damage on your next attack after reloading

Quick Draw saves you the action cost by not reloading at all, but only makes sense if you have doubling rings and a steady supply of one-handed weapons.

Running Reload lets you combine reloading with moving, giving some action economy value.

Reloading Strike (6th level) for the Way of the Drifter saves you the reload action if you're alternating melee and ranged attacks.

Since basically every gunslinger will be looking to pick up some way to lessen the burden of reloading, should one or more of these feats be baked into the base chassis of the Gunslinger? (This is a similar issue to the bomber alchemist that has a number of almost mandatory feats)

------
Another thought:

Way of the Pistolero description wrote:

You might leave a hand free, fight with twin pistols, or duel at any range like a musketeer with pistol and blade.

While fighting with one hand free is clear enough, it is very difficult for the Pistolero to fight with twin pistols or with a pistol and blade. Without a free hand and without access to Reloading Strike, you don't have a way to take the Interact action needed to reload without first dropping one weapon.

Dual wielding Pistolero have one somewhat awkward solution to this problem: Doubling rings and Quick Draw with a steady supply of already loaded weapons. However, the better solution would be if the class had access to...

doubling rings only work for melee weapons.

[RenegadeDuck]

shroudb wrote:

Cellion wrote:

So the gunslinger's firearms have a consistent 1 action cost to reload and don't hold magazines of rounds. This means you're going to be spending a not-insignificant portion of your turns reloading, especially if you go with the Way of the Sniper or Pistolero. Its a pretty steep cost that tends to make crossbows unappealing for most characters in the Core Rules.

The class has several ways to lessen the burden, some inherited from Ranger.

Risky Reload saves you the action cost, but introduces a misfire chance.

Firearm Ace (Ranger's Crossbow Ace) gives you some bonus damage on your next attack after reloading

Quick Draw saves you the action cost by not reloading at all, but only makes sense if you have doubling rings and a steady supply of one-handed weapons.

Running Reload lets you combine reloading with moving, giving some action economy value.

Reloading Strike (6th level) for the Way of the Drifter saves you the reload action if you're alternating melee and ranged attacks.

Since basically every gunslinger will be looking to pick up some way to lessen the burden of reloading, should one or more of these feats be baked into the base chassis of the Gunslinger? (This is a similar issue to the bomber alchemist that has a number of almost mandatory feats)

------
Another thought:

Way of the Pistolero description wrote:

You might leave a hand free, fight with twin pistols, or duel at any range like a musketeer with pistol and blade.

While fighting with one hand free is clear enough, it is very difficult for the Pistolero to fight with twin pistols or with a pistol and blade. Without a free hand and without access to Reloading Strike, you don't have a way to take the Interact action needed to reload without first dropping one weapon.

Dual wielding Pistolero have one somewhat awkward solution to this problem: Doubling rings and Quick Draw with a steady supply of already loaded weapons. However, the better solution would be if the

...

There's a side bar they says "assume there's a version of the doubling rings that works for ranged weapons and melee weapons as long as they are one handed.

[shroudb]

ah ty, i totally missed that, it alleviates some of my concerns about the genral issues of the pistolero itemization budget

[Squiggit]

Given that there are a bunch of different solutions I don't mind there being feats to improve it.

They should come online a lot sooner though. A Drifter needs to be level 6 to make their combat style functional and that's a huge problem and as you've pointed out, dual wielding pistoleros don't really have any good solutions right now.

[beowulf99]

For the Pistolero, I see them going more for a Pirate "Bandolier of Pistols" sort of feel rather than a wild west gunglinger with a 6-shooter.

Draw, shoot, drop repeat. "Ranged doubling rings" mean that you will only really be drawing with one hand, but in practice it's all good. I would like to see a special pistol brace that has a doubling ring effect on pistols on the turn they are drawn so that we aren't just juggling pistols with one hand, but meh, that's for later.

[Djinn71]

beowulf99 wrote:

For the Pistolero, I see them going more for a Pirate "Bandolier of Pistols" sort of feel rather than a wild west gunglinger with a 6-shooter.

Draw, shoot, drop repeat. "Ranged doubling rings" mean that you will only really be drawing with one hand, but in practice it's all good. I would like to see a special pistol brace that has a doubling ring effect on pistols on the turn they are drawn so that we aren't just juggling pistols with one hand, but meh, that's for later.

They made the ranged doubling rings only apply to two weapons chosen when you invest them. So no Bracer of pistols unfortunately.

I think Paizo intended for reloading to be a hard cap on how many attacks you can get out, which strikes me as odd given the guns don't seem better than other weapons, especially given how much the very similarly designed crossbows are complained about.

[Squiggit]

The weapons seem kind of conservative in general.

Sniper is a very boring trait that scales pretty badly. Unwieldy is rough.

The dueling pistol is technically a straight upgrade over the Hand Crossbow (outside range) but I feel like that says more about the hand crossbow being undertuned than the other way around.

Neither of them seem to compare all that favorably to regular bows, though.

An Arquebus has slightly higher base damage and range than a shortbow and fatal is better than deadly, but worse hand requirements, no propulsive (which cuts into that damage advantage quite a bit) and is a lot slower.

Ultimately, an Arquebusier is going to making half as many attacks as an Archer, though, assuming they can set their tripod up before combat (which in and of itself is going to take up a whole round otherwise)... and I'm not sure the numbers really bear out that it's worthwhile comparatively.

[Staffan Johansson]

Hands and dual-wielding are the big problem I see with reloading. Actions are a thing you can deal with, and that may or may not be balanced (haven't looked closely enough), but the hands are the big issue. There are lots of feats that depend on either dual-wielding pistols or pistol + melee weapon, but I can't really see any way to reload that way.

[KingTreyIII]

Allow me to re-post what I said in another thread here (since this is more relevant to what I was saying):

KingTreyIII wrote:

My Biggest Gripe (prepare for Rant™) It’s the magus playtest all over again; drifters and certain pistolero builds are basically unplayable. The fact that you need a free hand to reload makes drifters essentially unplayable until level 6 when Reloading Strike comes online. And certain builds, like dual-wielding pistols, are also unviable for the same reason. Only snipers and single-weapon pistoleros are actually good without some weird routine of dropping your weapon, reloading pistol, then picking up your weapon. And THEN dual-wielding pistols is even MORE unviable because that routine becomes “drop pistol 1, reload pistol 2, drop pistol 2, pick up pistol 1, reload pistol 1, pick up pistol 2” (that spends four actions that trigger AoOs, by the way). This makes Paired Shots a dead feat that you can only really use once per combat without going full Blackbeard and having 12 loaded pistols among your stowed weapons, and THEN it gets unviable for the reason of not having fundamental runes on all of those weapons so the damage is subpar at best. And you can’t even get around it by having your non-pistol weapon be an unarmed strike, because 2e specifies that unarmed attacks aren’t “weapons,” and all the gunslinger stuff for the drifter builds specify a “melee weapon”!

There’s also going into Dual-Weapon Warrior, but that results in a dead level where you just take the dedication without using it, since it won’t be useful because you need melee weapons for Double Slice, and you’re only taking it for Dual-Weapon Reload at level 4.

And by the way, drifters and dual-wielding pistoleros will have to spend money on fundamental weapon runes twice, because doubling rings only work for making melee Strikes. EDIT: I did not notice the sidebar on pg. 6 of the playtest document (thanks Arachnofiend!)

There’s a LOT of feats and features to give the gunslinger action economy, but I feel like for the final book they should really tone that down and give gunslingers (or even SOME gunslingers) something like Dual-Weapon Reload as a class feature (and that won’t even make Reloading Strike obsolete because that’ll still get you two actions in one). I would kill for something like an 8th level feat for the dual-wielding pistoleros that lets you reload two weapons with one action.

Rant™ over

[Asethe]

KingTreyIII wrote:

and THEN it gets unviable for the reason of not having fundamental runes on all of those weapons so the damage is subpar at best.

Sidebar notes the existence of doubling ring stand ins for ranged weapons, which will probably see live once it's published

[Bardarok]

You can make a dual pistol and/or sword and pistol build work if you take the dual weapon warrior archetype. Dual weapon reload seems so essential to these builds though that it should probably just be a gunslinger class feat.

[WatersLethe]

Reloading feels bad. Adding feats that fix or remove reloading times so builds can actually work feels counter to the PF2 design paradigm of not having feat taxes that ONLY remove problems.

What I would like to see is a bunch of feats, abilities, and game features built around making reloading more fun.

Like, what if you could do more stuff while reloading?

Baseline (no feats or class features required):
While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, or Take Cover

With Features:
While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, and Take Cover, or [Drink A Potion, Use Quick Repair, Step, Aid Another, Seek, Sense Motive, Concentrate on a Spell, Stand or Drop Prone]

When you reload, you also gain [+1 dodge bonus to AC, a +1 damage bonus to your next attack, a +1 bonus to will saves, +1 temp hp]

I mean, reloading is never going to be super duper fun times, but it'd be nice we could get creative with it instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.

[KingTreyIII]

Asethe wrote:

KingTreyIII wrote:

and THEN it gets unviable for the reason of not having fundamental runes on all of those weapons so the damage is subpar at best.

Sidebar notes the existence of doubling ring stand ins for ranged weapons, which will probably see live once it's published

Okay, fair enough, you could just drop the non-magical gun, reload the magic one, then pull out another preloaded non-magical gun. That still doesn't really fix the overarching issue, though.

WatersLethe wrote:

Reloading feels bad. Adding feats that fix or remove reloading times so builds can actually work feels counter to the PF2 design paradigm of not having feat taxes that ONLY remove problems.

What I would like to see is a bunch of feats, abilities, and game features built around making reloading more fun.

Like, what if you could do more stuff while reloading?

Baseline (no feats or class features required):
While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, or Take Cover

With Features:
While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, and Take Cover, or [Drink A Potion, Use Quick Repair, Step, Aid Another, Seek, Sense Motive, Concentrate on a Spell, Stand or Drop Prone]

When you reload, you also gain [+1 dodge bonus to AC, a +1 damage bonus to your next attack, a +1 bonus to will saves, +1 temp hp]

I mean, reloading is never going to be super duper fun times, but it'd be nice we could get creative with it instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.

I actually really like this idea! But my problem was not with just sweeping out reloading in general, it was that an entire encouraged build (drifter) really can't work too well unless you have something like Reloading Strike or Dual-Weapon Reload that lets you reload with both hands occupied.

[Memyselfishness]

WatersLethe wrote:

Reloading feels bad. Adding feats that fix or remove reloading times so builds can actually work feels counter to the PF2 design paradigm of not having feat taxes that ONLY remove problems.

What I would like to see is a bunch of feats, abilities, and game features built around making reloading more fun.

Like, what if you could do more stuff while reloading?

Baseline (no feats or class features required):
While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, or Take Cover

With Features:
While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, and Take Cover, or [Drink A Potion, Use Quick Repair, Step, Aid Another, Seek, Sense Motive, Concentrate on a Spell, Stand or Drop Prone]

When you reload, you also gain [+1 dodge bonus to AC, a +1 damage bonus to your next attack, a +1 bonus to will saves, +1 temp hp]

I mean, reloading is never going to be super duper fun times, but it'd be nice we could get creative with it instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.

I think reloading for Gunslingers could use this. I'm not certain about giving access to everyone. I think it makes sense to have Gunslingers not need a hand free to reload.

Personally, I was thinking that each Way should have a way to get around reloading. Drifter can have Running Reload as an example.

[rainzax]

WatersLethe wrote:

Baseline (no feats or class features required):

While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, or Take Cover

Maybe nothing with the Concentrate tag? Otherwise I agree.

[Ruzza]

WatersLethe wrote:

Reloading feels bad. Adding feats that fix or remove reloading times so builds can actually work feels counter to the PF2 design paradigm of not having feat taxes that ONLY remove problems.

Besides favoriting this, I wanted to quote it for just being a fantastic idea. It could be that I only recently started reading it, but one of the things that stood out to me in The Gunslinger book with Roland is his particular, insanely practiced way of reloading. A gunslinger is going to be reloading, like it or not (and a lot of people, myself included, are on that not side of that one). Having that action do something a little bit more would feel better, especially if its tied to class path and not class feats (though absolutely expanding on it through class feats seems likely). I wish I had something more to add to the pile of ideas, but I really just wanted to signal boost you here, Lethe.

[Syri]

Paizo's game design manager said on Discord that giving the finalized gunslinger a Dual-Weapon Reload feat would likely work!

[OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0]

WatersLethe wrote:

Reloading feels bad. Adding feats that fix or remove reloading times so builds can actually work feels counter to the PF2 design paradigm of not having feat taxes that ONLY remove problems.

Yep. A tax to remove bugs is no fun.

WatersLethe wrote:

What I would like to see is a bunch of feats, abilities, and game features built around making reloading more fun.

Like, what if you could do more stuff while reloading?

Baseline (no feats or class features required):
While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, or Take Cover

With Features:
While reloading, you can Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, and Take Cover, or [Drink A Potion, Use Quick Repair, Step, Aid Another, Seek, Sense Motive, Concentrate on a Spell, Stand or Drop Prone]

When you reload, you also gain [+1 dodge bonus to AC, a +1 damage bonus to your next attack, a +1 bonus to will saves, +1 temp hp]

I mean, reloading is never going to be super duper fun times, but it'd be nice we could get creative with it instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.

Or the ol’ “call stuff out to your buddies while you chew on your cigar and hide behind a beer stained table, lying in the blood and sawdust, feverishly loading your weapon”. Admittedly, it’s more a warlord/commander/bard inspire mechanic, but pretty on theme.

[OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0]

Squiggit wrote:

The weapons seem kind of conservative in general.

Sniper is a very boring trait that scales pretty badly. Unwieldy is rough.

The dueling pistol is technically a straight upgrade over the Hand Crossbow (outside range) but I feel like that says more about the hand crossbow being undertuned than the other way around.

Neither of them seem to compare all that favorably to regular bows, though.

An Arquebus has slightly higher base damage and range than a shortbow and fatal is better than deadly, but worse hand requirements, no propulsive (which cuts into that damage advantage quite a bit) and is a lot slower.

Ultimately, an Arquebusier is going to making half as many attacks as an Archer, though, assuming they can set their tripod up before combat (which in and of itself is going to take up a whole round otherwise)... and I'm not sure the numbers really bear out that it's worthwhile comparatively.

[Emphasis mine for...emphasis.] If this latter part is true then there is a problem. I do think the damage numbers on the flintlock musket and pistol look really low, even with Fatal. If you aren’t making your shot Fatal every round, your tech-mineral throwing device isn’t very good. It costs per shot. It does less damage than a hatchet, though admittedly at twice the range. And you don’t have to clean your hatchet. Though I’d advise you do. Brains and tendons tend to get stinky quick.

[Angel Hunter D]

Even with Dual Reload, if it doesn't come online level 1 or 2 I can't really see 2 weapons working out.

I like the idea of making the reloads more interesting. It's the thing I hate the most about crossbows and it would really give the Gunslinger an identity beyond just shooting a gun.

[Candlejake]

Yeah reloading feels rough. And just straight up makes dual wielding and the whole drifter subclass not work at all. Dont think adding a feat would solve that since it would be a required feat for drifter and that feels rather bad even if it is level 1. Needs to be baked into main class.

I second the idea of making reload more interesting! Honestly I think the initial deeds should be about that instead of about rolling initiative. Each gunslinger way getting special ways to reload or special bonuses when reloading.

The gunslingers first couple levels of feats are pretty meh anyways, could use some more reload related ones

[Perpdepog]

I'll second, third, fourth ... whatever, the idea of making reloading more interesting. I really dug the ideas like attempting to recall knowledge and such while reloading and similar activities. Slapping concentration on is a bit odd, but I think if any class could handle the multitasking required of reloading something while doing purely mental actions it'd be the one dedicated to fighting with weapons that need reloading.

Honestly it'd be cool if it was expansive enough to create a new Reload feat trait ... though that'd get confusing with weapons having a Reload trait as well, so nevermind. Point is making it a trait would be neat because it could then be expanded to other classes as well, helping the gunslinger overall while doing things like buffing crossbow rangers a little, too.

[Lady Wrath]

So this may be crazy and honestly I may just house rules this myself if I'm not happy with the RAW but since it currently looks like firearms are about as strong as Thrown Weapons with Javelins being almost as good as Dueling Pistols I thought of the ways throw build are made to work, using any or all of the following.

1. Give gunslingers a class feature (I'm thinking 1st level) to reload without a freehand (keeps their niche protected)

2. Add a 2nd level feat called Quick Reload that allows for reloading a Firearm or Crossbow that have a Reload of 1 and then striking for 1 action (without the penalty since quick draw doesn't have a "misfire" chance) I'd give this feat to any class that already has Crossbow support

3. Make a 3rd level weapon property rune of Reloading that reloads a Firearm or crossbow for free (similar to Returning runes) Though you don't gain any bonuses you would have gained from reloading normally

EDIT: I realized after posting this that #2 makes running reload less useful but for shot range characters running reload isn't that great. so maybe have it only work for Firearms. *Shrug*

[hyphz]

A big issue is that most actions require the firearm to be loaded, then leave you with an unloaded gun at the start of your turn.

Risky Reload lets you reload and strike, but you have to fire the reloaded round, so you can't use it to be ready for a Reaction outside your turn. Maybe changing this to allow reloading and striking in any order?

[Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion]

hyphz wrote:

A big issue is that most actions require the firearm to be loaded, then leave you with an unloaded gun at the start of your turn.

Risky Reload lets you reload and strike, but you have to fire the reloaded round, so you can't use it to be ready for a Reaction outside your turn. Maybe changing this to allow reloading and striking in any order?

You can only risky reload 1 / turn. So fire, risky reload (and fire), reload.

Honestly a lot of builds don't wind up attacking 3 times per turn. There is almost always a better thing you can do with that third action than make another attack at -10.

So only being able to attack twice, especially with a highly mobile fighter with running reload, doesn't seem like that much of an imposition.

[Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion]

Also, a lot of dual weapon builds already do not come fully online until 2nd or higher level. I don't see a problem with a gunslinger starting out 1 weapon, and then slowly upgrading.

Personally I am thinking of going Way of the Drifter with gun + dagger so I can throw my knife when I need a hand free to reload.

[RexAliquid]

Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

Also, a lot of dual weapon builds already do not come fully online until 2nd or higher level. I don't see a problem with a gunslinger starting out 1 weapon, and then slowly upgrading.

Personally I am thinking of going Way of the Drifter with gun + dagger so I can throw my knife when I need a hand free to reload.

Yeah, I imagine a lot of low-level drifters will rely more on their melee weapons or daggers. It’s okay for rapid fire gunslinging to wait until mid levels.

[Invictus Novo]

I really like these classes and got really excited for the Drifter. That is until I started building one and realized that the Drifter is near unplayable until level 6. The whole concept is to fight with a melee and firearm simultaneously, however I can't reload while dual wielding until level 6!

Is the intension for this class to only shoot somebody once per battle? Or are they envisioned to be the comic relief by constantly dropping their sword to reload their pistol and then picking their sword back up?

Seems we need something built into the class that allows for a sheath-reload-draw as a single action. This would make sense to sheath the sword, quickly reload the weapon, and redraw your sword in a single fluid action.

[Lightdroplet]

I guess a simple way to temporarily solve the Drifter issue before level 6 is to use a Gauntlet as your melee weapon. Free-hand makes reloading a gun possible even though you are technically wielding a melee weapon in your hand.
Of course, you lose all the sword&gun flavor that was intended for the class, but at least you get something mechanically functional.

[Keraki]

Reloading strike just feels like it should be the initial deed for Drifter instead of the free double quickdraw. I'm fine with double pistols not available at level 1 (besides it would basically near bankrupt 1st level platers). As the OP said they should have access to Dual-Weapon Reload, which could either stay as a 4th or be brought down to level 2 feat. Only reason I could be brought down to level 2 is because it seem to me most archetype feats are usually 2 higher than equivalent class feats.

[RexAliquid]

Quick Draw is a 2nd level feat.

[Tweezer]

Syri wrote:

Paizo's game design manager said on Discord that giving the finalized gunslinger a Dual-Weapon Reload feat would likely work!

Even then it doesn't work with feats like Risky Reload. Because risky reload spends an action to reload and shoot, and dual weapon reload takes one to reload without a free Hand. You can't even combine them for two actions to risky reload one of your weapons without a free hand for two actions (which would also suck).

[Ferious Thune]

I share the concerns about reloading for two-weapon builds. I think it's a much bigger issue for the sword and gun style than for a two gun pistolero, though. Largely, that's because I'm not sure how much benefit you gain from wielding two guns before 8th level, as there aren't any feats that let you do anything with two guns before then.

8th level brings Paired Shots, which is essentially Double Slice for guns/crossbows.

14th level brings Two-Weapon Flurry.

Other than those two feats, what are people looking to do by wielding two guns?

The main benefit at early levels actually seems to be... having to reload less often. Getting a feat to let you reload with your hands full would make things easier, obviously, but whether you're firing one gun or two guns, you're still taking the same MAP. Without feats to actually benefit from wielding two guns, I'm not sure why it's necessary to do it from the start.

On the flip side, dual weapon warrior gets Double Slice at 2nd level, so as soon as you can take the archetype, you can get a benefit for dual wielding. Fighter can get it at 1st.

Rogue has Twin Feint as an option at 1st level, so there's incentive to dual wield.

There aren't, as far as I can tell, any firearms that directly benefit your 2nd or 3rd attack in the same way that agile does.

Now the sword and gun build does suffer from not being able to reload. The Sword and Pistol feat at 1st level, for example, encourages firing every round, either by firing first, then closing to attack flat-footed or attacking with the melee weapon, then firing without provoking. So I see that build being hurt much more by the reload feat not being available until 6th level than the two gun build.

Pistolero should have access to Reloading Strike, though, otherwise it's tough to really do a sword and gun build with that Way.

[Kelseus]

With quickdraw, you can have a routine like this.
1: melee, shoot, sheath.
2: reload, quckdraw/strike, shoot.
3: sheath, reload, shoot.
4: QD/melee, sheath, reload
5: QD/melee, shoot, sheath

5 rounds, 4 shots, 4 melee strikes with investing only a level 2 feat. Since you are unlikely to use that third strike most rounds anyways, you are really just losing 2 strikes over 5 rounds.

[RexAliquid]

Kelseus wrote:

With quickdraw, you can have a routine like this.

1: melee, shoot, sheath.
2: reload, quckdraw/strike, shoot.
3: sheath, reload, shoot.
4: QD/melee, sheath, reload
5: QD/melee, shoot, sheath

5 rounds, 4 shots, 4 melee strikes with investing only a level 2 feat. Since you are unlikely to use that third strike most rounds anyways, you are really just losing 2 strikes over 5 rounds.

If your melee weapon is thrown, you can toss 'em to free up a hand, even. That works best at low levels, but is still an option.

[LarsC]

My dumb brain has become obsessed with the idea of a "Quick Sheath" trait on guns. i.e., a gun with a spring-loaded weapon retractor that lets you wear the gun as a free action, so you can reload two weapons with four actions (free sheath, reload, free sheath, draw, reload, draw) without dropping your guns on the floor, instead of six (sheath, reload, sheath, draw, reload, draw).

In my mind, the main appeal of wielding two guns is to allow for more dynamic turns where you would use utility actions like Smoke Curtain, Deflecting Shot, Redirecting Shot, etc... without sacrificing the option to also deal some damage within the same turn. Maybe this sort of "Quick Sheath" idea would let gunslingers specialize in that direction in exchange for a slightly lower attack bonus / critical chance.

Maybe "quick sheath" weapons could be Advanced so only gunslingers and others who have spent feats to get proficiency could use them effectively. This could also balance these weapons to be less effective at hitting crits as regularly as the Simple and Martial guns do for Gunslingers.

If this "quick sheath" trait is specific to certain guns built from the ground up for dual-wielding, it wouldn't really undermine the design idea behind the Dual-Weapon Reload feat (which I think is a really oppressive tax for Gunslingers since the prerequisite feats in that archetype are melee-focused).

Anyway, just thinking out loud.

EDIT: I've realized that I'm imagining you need to be holding a weapon to reload it. Is that correct, or can you reload a weapon that is currently being worn by you?

[Bardarok]

Tweezer wrote:

Syri wrote:

Paizo's game design manager said on Discord that giving the finalized gunslinger a Dual-Weapon Reload feat would likely work!

Even then it doesn't work with feats like Risky Reload. Because risky reload spends an action to reload and shoot, and dual weapon reload takes one to reload without a free Hand. You can't even combine them for two actions to risky reload one of your weapons without a free hand for two actions (which would also suck).

I'm not sure that is a problem though it leaves risky reload as an option for rifle or single pistol type gunslingers. Not every feat needs to work with every build.

[Djinn71]

Kelseus wrote:

With quickdraw, you can have a routine like this.

1: melee, shoot, sheath.
2: reload, quckdraw/strike, shoot.
3: sheath, reload, shoot.
4: QD/melee, sheath, reload
5: QD/melee, shoot, sheath

5 rounds, 4 shots, 4 melee strikes with investing only a level 2 feat. Since you are unlikely to use that third strike most rounds anyways, you are really just losing 2 strikes over 5 rounds.

We are in the playtest, do we really need to settle for such a clunky playstyle?

Better hope your enemy doesn't step away from you, because you have no move actions to spare. How does this routine compare with other classes? They can make 10 attacks and have 5 actions left over to useful things like moving, combat maneuvers, healing or Demoralizing.

Please can we have this class not be downright punishing to play for at least 6 levels if you're dual wielding (forever if you're dual wielding pistols). Is it really a problem if the Gunslinger is able to shoot/attack twice in a turn and have a move action left over, like every other class? Firearms as they stand aren't any better than other weapons, they don't need to have their attacks so restricted.

[Snipper]

Just one more thing - reloading provokes AoO. When I understood this, Drifter lost a lot of his attractiveness. Yes, you can shoot safely with Pistol and Sword feat, but reloading still leaves you vulnerable and there are no way to prevent this

[Yakkabe]

In response to OP, I would like to point out that in the playtest, Firearm Ace states: "You must make the attack before the end of your turn or these benefits are lost."

Meanwhile, Crossbow Ace is more useable: "You must make the attack before the end of your **next** turn or these benefits are lost."

I agree with the general consensus here, reloading is a big problem for the gunslinger, much bigger than a crossbow ranger who invests everything into fewer, more precise shots.

[Laki7z]

Yakkabe wrote:

In response to OP, I would like to point out that in the playtest, Firearm Ace states: "You must make the attack before the end of your turn or these benefits are lost."

Meanwhile, Crossbow Ace is more useable: "You must make the attack before the end of your **next** turn or these benefits are lost."

I agree with the general consensus here, reloading is a big problem for the gunslinger, much bigger than a crossbow ranger who invests everything into fewer, more precise shots.

they fixed that part, check the sticky threads.

Firearm ace have the problem of not being useable with quick draw or first turn with a prepped gun

[Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion]

There is the Juggle feat, but it will cost you some actions.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1199

[Yakkabe]

Laki7z wrote:

they fixed that part, check the sticky threads.

Oops, missed that, thank you

[Lightning Raven]

Feat tax to remove bugs is the Alchemist's niche. We can't step on its toes.

[Kelseus]

Djinn71 wrote:

Kelseus wrote:

With quickdraw, you can have a routine like this.

1: melee, shoot, sheath.
2: reload, quckdraw/strike, shoot.
3: sheath, reload, shoot.
4: QD/melee, sheath, reload
5: QD/melee, shoot, sheath

5 rounds, 4 shots, 4 melee strikes with investing only a level 2 feat. Since you are unlikely to use that third strike most rounds anyways, you are really just losing 2 strikes over 5 rounds.

We are in the playtest, do we really need to settle for such a clunky playstyle?

Better hope your enemy doesn't step away from you, because you have no move actions to spare. How does this routine compare with other classes? They can make 10 attacks and have 5 actions left over to useful things like moving, combat maneuvers, healing or Demoralizing.

Please can we have this class not be downright punishing to play for at least 6 levels if you're dual wielding (forever if you're dual wielding pistols). Is it really a problem if the Gunslinger is able to shoot/attack twice in a turn and have a move action left over, like every other class? Firearms as they stand aren't any better than other weapons, they don't need to have their attacks so restricted.

It's not ideal, but it's doable. As someone mentioned above, you can use a throwing weapon and now you can have two attacks a round (until you run out of thrown weapons). This is at level 2. At level 4 you get running reload, which also helps. A Gunslinger also has the same attack progression as a fighter.

[Fresh chives]

beowulf99 wrote:

For the Pistolero, I see them going more for a Pirate "Bandolier of Pistols" sort of feel rather than a wild west gunglinger with a 6-shooter.

Draw, shoot, drop repeat. "Ranged doubling rings" mean that you will only really be drawing with one hand, but in practice it's all good. I would like to see a special pistol brace that has a doubling ring effect on pistols on the turn they are drawn so that we aren't just juggling pistols with one hand, but meh, that's for later.

One problem with that approach would be that by the looks of it you need to spend an hour maintaining each firearm, so if you had 5 flintlock pistols total you'd need 5 hours a day of just maintaining weapons if you don't want misfires.

[Laki7z]

iquaniqua wrote:

beowulf99 wrote:

For the Pistolero, I see them going more for a Pirate "Bandolier of Pistols" sort of feel rather than a wild west gunglinger with a 6-shooter.

Draw, shoot, drop repeat. "Ranged doubling rings" mean that you will only really be drawing with one hand, but in practice it's all good. I would like to see a special pistol brace that has a doubling ring effect on pistols on the turn they are drawn so that we aren't just juggling pistols with one hand, but meh, that's for later.

One problem with that approach would be that by the looks of it you need to spend an hour maintaining each firearm, so if you had 5 flintlock pistols total you'd need 5 hours a day of just maintaining weapons if you don't want misfires.

Hate to say it again, check the sticky thread, fixed, any number of weapons for 1h now

[OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0]

Kelseus wrote:

With quickdraw, you can have a routine like this.

1: melee, shoot, sheath.
2: reload, quckdraw/strike, shoot.
3: sheath, reload, shoot.
4: QD/melee, sheath, reload
5: QD/melee, shoot, sheath

5 rounds, 4 shots, 4 melee strikes with investing only a level 2 feat. Since you are unlikely to use that third strike most rounds anyways, you are really just losing 2 strikes over 5 rounds.

Yep, that *looks* like a useful set of actions, but it seems more like calculus than a simple playstyle. I would like the gunslinger or even just the sword and pistol approach to be simple. Then again, mich of this may just be flintlock based, and circumvented by any magazine/multiple chamber weapon...