Party needs Rogue, I hate playing Rogues


Advice

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Ask your GM if you can just gain Trapfinding as a trait. I think one exists already, but it is likely a Mummies Mask campaign trait.


The wizard doesn't prepare the situational spells in the morning. The wizard leaves spell slots open and prepares situational spells as needed.


Wizard also prepares multithreat spells, like telekinesis or lesser planar binding, that can be used for a variety of purposes depending on what is needed at the time.


They also use scrolls... Getting free Scribe Scroll at 1st level is pretty sweet.

Grand Lodge

(Freebooter, Trapper) Ranger is a solid one level dip that goes well with a lot of builds. gives a nice move action buff, lots of skills, and trapfinding.
Skald 10, Bard 10, Inquisitor 10, or Shaman 10 could all be great trap finders without feeling Rogue-y. Acute Senses is crazy good at CL8.

Seeker Oracle is another good option.


At least from my experience...
Start with Unchained Rogue 4/Sohei Monk 7, get another level of Monk and after that go into Spiritualist Investigator.
Get yourself an elven curved blade, duelist gloves and go to town.

Even without sneak attack (which should be very easy to get with flanking, what is making it unreliable in your campaign?) your 2 handed power attacking flurries will f+#$ing murder things. Spiritualist will help with major boost to your saves and AC as well as some bonuses to skills.

I am playing a build similar to this one but with a Varian Multiclass into Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier and focus into demoralization, but you can just as well use the feats to focus on perception and disable device.


nature fang druid xD

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

My party needed a healer and a trap killer, so I made a life oracle seeker. I like it because it gives me more to do then just heal and has some role play fun.


urban ranger


Don't bother playing a rogue at all, it's not necessary.

A high perception check should be sufficient to identity and locate those traps, both magical and mundane. Disable device should be able to disable mundane traps. And for magical traps, dispel magic or summoning a monster to set of the traps should be sufficient to get rid of magical traps. Monster summoning can be done with something as simple as a wand of mount to summon a horse and set of a trap.

So it's completely unnecessary to be a rogue. Play what you want. At least 1 party member should invest in Disable Device (and everyone should invest in perception). As long as someone can identify the trap it should be pretty straightforward to set it off, avoid it, or disable it.


Sarvis the Buck wrote:

So long story short, in our last session, the GM's rogue betrayed us, killed my character, and ran off into the sunset. Considering that this GM is really big on traps, we're seriously going to need a new trapfinder.

Problem is, rogues are probably my least favorite class. I prefer less situational damage over sneak attacks.

So, I need a rogue that can still deal with traps, while also focusing less on sneaking, and more on combat.

Starting at 11th level, any ideas?

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but ANY class will do if your GM will allow you to take this TRAIT. Then all you have to do is devote your skill points because you aren't getting the 1/2 level bonus that a Rogue does; maybe incorporate a Skill Focus feat or two, depending on the particulars of your GM's style.


Ways to get trapfinding, which is needed to find magic traps:

Trap Finder campaign trait. Cheapest one. Campaign traits are not usually allowed in other games, though.
Trapfinding Slayer Talent. Slayer 2.
Seeker archetype Sorcerer 1.
Trap Breaker archetype Alchemist 1.
Brother of the Zeal Monk PRC 2.
Archivist archetype Bard 2.
Pathfinder Society Field Agent (or whatever) prestige class 1.
Guild Agent prestige class 1.
Trapfinding talent Ninja 2.
Patient Hunter archetype Hunter 1.
Alchemical Trapper archetype kobold alchemist 4.
Trapper archetype Ranger 1.

That's about it, I think. See if you like something from in there.

Also maybe see about co-opting the Trap Spotter rogue talent via somewhere. 2 level rogue dip if you have to.

And you'll need an unreasonably high perception bonus as well as disable device.

Druid is an excellent trap finder if you're allowed to take the trait.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

There is also VMC Rogue (level 3). This approach costs you half your feats but leaves your class levels wide open to anything except Rogue.

Grand Lodge

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Olaf the Holy wrote:
Ways to get trapfinding, which is needed to find magic traps:

I believe you mean disable magic traps.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Olaf the Holy wrote:
Ways to get trapfinding, which is needed to find magic traps:
I believe you mean disable magic traps.

Yeah, that, whatever. Useful to have around.


Olaf the Holy wrote:

Ways to get trapfinding, which is needed to find magic traps:

Trap Finder campaign trait. Cheapest one. Campaign traits are not usually allowed in other games, though.
Trapfinding Slayer Talent. Slayer 2.
Seeker archetype Sorcerer 1.
Trap Breaker archetype Alchemist 1.
Brother of the Zeal Monk PRC 2.
Archivist archetype Bard 2.
Pathfinder Society Field Agent (or whatever) prestige class 1.
Guild Agent prestige class 1.
Trapfinding talent Ninja 2.
Patient Hunter archetype Hunter 1.
Alchemical Trapper archetype kobold alchemist 4.
Trapper archetype Ranger 1.

That's about it, I think. See if you like something from in there.

Also maybe see about co-opting the Trap Spotter rogue talent via somewhere. 2 level rogue dip if you have to.

And you'll need an unreasonably high perception bonus as well as disable device.

Druid is an excellent trap finder if you're allowed to take the trait.

why does everyone forget the total awesome Urban Ranger they get it at level 3.

but as other stated you don't need this at all. To spot them or even disable them. Summon monster 1 wands do the trick just fine, if you can't just walk around it. you only have to worry about magical traps the auto reset and those are few and far between and for those that do 3rd level spell dispel magic or and anti magic field crush them. This is one of the reasons for why rogue suck threads, they are not needed at all in the game. This class ability is not even needed and it is so poor of a choice that it is all it is worth a trait. hence why you can get it as a trait.


Summoning expendable monsters to spring the trap from a safe distance isn't 100% effective, it depends on what the trap does. Mostly effective, but not 100%. It also depends on whether or not the GM is even willing to tell you what the trap does - not all of them do.

Silver Crusade

Rogue 3/Fighter 8 is a perfectly good combo. If you go Human, you can max Perception and Disable Device and get a smattering of ranks in a few other useful skills though you probably can't max them.

If you want to do combat maneuvers and don't mind light armor (which lets you take advantage of evasion, you can take the Lore Warden archetype for additional skill points and rewards a slightly higher Int which would let you max even more rogue skills).

Otherwise, unarchetyped fighter can actually work pretty well. You can wear fullplate and just not worry about Evasion. Eventually armor mastery will even eliminate the armor check penalty for your skills.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Why 3rd level? 1st will get you most everything you need if you're going heavy armor.


Third level for dex to damage with a weapon.


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Dex to Damage in Full Plate is a pretty bad deal.


Mithril full plate with armor training would help with a dex build, but you'd still reach a point of capped dex to AC.


Melkiador wrote:
Mithril full plate with armor training would help with a dex build, but you'd still reach a point of capped dex to AC.

Mithral Tatami-Do with Armor Training (assuming 17 levels of Fighter) allows for eh... 3 + 2 + 4... +9 DEX allotment with a +7 base armor to AC. I doubt you'd have more than 28 DEX (18 base + 6 belt + 4 tome) at level 20 (this is assuming you spend your +1 pips on CON or WIS).

The Dark Lurker archetype might be cool for this, as it removes the otherwise useless Evasion.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Woodoodoo wrote:
Third level for dex to damage with a weapon.

Oh, THAT rogue.


Max dex bonus cap on armor only limits AC - it doesn't limit attack rolls, reflex saves, initiative rolls, skills, etc. So imo a dex-to-damage character using full plate is fine.


Archaeologist Bard gets Clever Explorer at Level 2 which acts as Trap Finding + Some.

This is a great Rogue, without being a rogue class.


Archaeologists can't disarm magical traps until level 6 though. It's not a great dip.


voideternal wrote:
Max dex bonus cap on armor only limits AC - it doesn't limit attack rolls, reflex saves, initiative rolls, skills, etc. So imo a dex-to-damage character using full plate is fine.

Generally speaking, it's pointless. At a high enough Dex, your Dex bonus is going to outstrip the various different kinds of armor until very high levels when you can nab Celestial Plate and such.

At low levels, you're probably planning to start with an 18 Dex. 20 by 5th, probably. So, +5 to AC. You get +1 in Full Plate.

9+1 = 10 AC.

Or you could wear a Mithral Breastplate for not TOO much more and get the a higher AC (6+5=11), a higher Touch AC, and a little room to grow or have buffs like Cat's Grace cast.

Armor Training mitigates this a bit, but you're still better off in Mithral Medium or Light than Heavy before the aforementioned very high levels, and by then you might actually have a high enough AC to go armorless and not lose anything.

Basically, if you go that route you're probably better off grabbing an archetype that ditches Armor Training for something, like Mutation Warrior. +4 more Dex and +2 Touch AC more than makes up for the lack of Full Plate.


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I could have almost sworn that I have seen this thread before, but before the date on the original post . . . Anyway, I know that the OP expressed a clear hatred of Rogues, but I am surprised that nobody mentioned Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue. Trades out Trap Sense for the magic-specific Alarm Sense, but keeps Tranpfinding, so you can still disable magical traps without needing to use a spell . . . AND in exchange for reduced Sneak Attack and Rogue Talent progression, it gets 6/9 spellcasting from the Sorcere/Wizard list, using the Magus spells per day table. If applied to Unchained Rogue(*), you get to keep the Finesse Training that this gives you (free Weapon Finesse and free Dex-to-Damage on one weapon that you can use with Weapon Finesse, even if it doesn't qualify for any of the standard Dex-to-Damage feats -- eventually also gives you more weapons that you can do this with). Eldritch Scoundrel can also sacrifice spells to power Ki-dependent Ninja Tricks, thereby working around one of the annoyances of Unchained Rogue, which is the banning certain original Rogue Talents including Ki Pool, even though Unchained Rogue can still take Ninja Tricks. If you want to Spellstrike but don't mind waiting a while to get it, you could even go VMC Magus, which also gets you an Arcane Pool and 3 Magus Arcana. (If you don't need Trapfinding before 3rd level and want to concentrate more on the Magus aspect, you could instead go Magus VMC Rogue, which has the advantage of giving you Spell Combat and more Magus Arcana except with a couple of archetypes that replace some of them.)

(*)Not allowed in PFS when I checked earlier this week, but as far as I know otherwise legal to combine.


If you're going to be lvl 11, with no need to play the character at earlier levels, Sleepless Detective prestige class

6 levels of Barbarian
1 level Seeker Oracle (Lame curse)
4 Levels Sleepless Detective

Hit hard, rage cycle, and pretty much auto-spot any trap you're near.

Maybe take human for the bonus skill focus option


Legio_MCMLXXXVII wrote:
Summoner. Wand of Aram Zey's Focus. Go nuts.

I'm gonna second this one. Eidolons have Darkvision, conditional immortality, a wide aray of exotic senses and some of the best skill boosting options in the game. Plus, the class is just really fun.

In PFS, I run an APG Summoner that relies on Summon Monster for combat and the Eidolon for rogue stuff. Use Magic Device means I can slap on AZF and take out magical traps. Or I can just cast Evolution Surge and each into your bag of tricks to bypass it.

This strategy also works in Unchained, since Skill Eidolons can still flourish with the leaner Evolution pool.

Silver Crusade

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Why 3rd level? 1st will get you most everything you need if you're going heavy armor.

3rd level for the extra d6 sneak attack, +1 Fort and Will, trap sense +1 (OK, trap sense--it's not much but it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick), and being on the way to 4th level where you get uncanny dodge and a second rogue talent without losing additional BAB. The skill points don't hurt either, but those are the general high points of chained Rogue 3.

The fighter 8/Rogue 3 build I have in mind would also consider taking Deadly Stroke and the the shatter defenses line of prerequisites synergizes rather nicely with the 2d6 sneak attack, especially if you have some casters in the party willing to play with fear effects.


Sundakan wrote:
Dex to Damage in Full Plate is a pretty bad deal.

Not if you are a fighter. In mitheral full plate you can have +10 armor bonus with +9 Max dex bonus an 0 ACP. That's using the APG Sash of War Champion and couple Armor Master feats.


Sundakan wrote:
voideternal wrote:
Max dex bonus cap on armor only limits AC - it doesn't limit attack rolls, reflex saves, initiative rolls, skills, etc. So imo a dex-to-damage character using full plate is fine.

Generally speaking, it's pointless. At a high enough Dex, your Dex bonus is going to outstrip the various different kinds of armor until very high levels when you can nab Celestial Plate and such.

At low levels, you're probably planning to start with an 18 Dex. 20 by 5th, probably. So, +5 to AC. You get +1 in Full Plate.

9+1 = 10 AC.

Or you could wear a Mithral Breastplate for not TOO much more and get the a higher AC (6+5=11), a higher Touch AC, and a little room to grow or have buffs like Cat's Grace cast.

Armor Training mitigates this a bit, but you're still better off in Mithral Medium or Light than Heavy before the aforementioned very high levels, and by then you might actually have a high enough AC to go armorless and not lose anything.

Basically, if you go that route you're probably better off grabbing an archetype that ditches Armor Training for something, like Mutation Warrior. +4 more Dex and +2 Touch AC more than makes up for the lack of Full Plate.

Let me point out that Rogue 3 / Fighter X doesn't gain Uncanny dodge, so that flat-footed AC for Dex builds makes a big impact. Depending on the situation, any monster can target flat-footed AC, but only specialized monsters ever target touch AC.

Otherwise, I'm in agreement with your claim above.


Oracle Seeker Archtype is one idea. There is a Ranger Archtype that grants the Disarm Trap abilities just don't remember which one.

Grand Lodge

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Elder Basilisk wrote:
3rd level for the extra d6 sneak attack, +1 Fort and Will, trap sense +1 (OK, trap sense--it's not much but it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick), and being on the way to 4th level where you get uncanny dodge and a second rogue talent without losing additional BAB. The skill points don't hurt either, but those are the general high points of chained Rogue 3.

Yeah, I find the breakpoints for a rogue dip to be 1, 2, and 4 depending on what works with your character. 3 just doesn't seem worth it without going to 4.


Play an investigator, high strength,decent dex, high int, take a longspear and powerattack as well as combat reflexes...get the 5k magic item that lets you mix 2 elixirs as 1, drink a longarm/enlarge person elixir...profit


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Elder Basilisk wrote:
3rd level for the extra d6 sneak attack, +1 Fort and Will, trap sense +1 (OK, trap sense--it's not much but it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick), and being on the way to 4th level where you get uncanny dodge and a second rogue talent without losing additional BAB. The skill points don't hurt either, but those are the general high points of chained Rogue 3.
Yeah, I find the breakpoints for a rogue dip to be 1, 2, and 4 depending on what works with your character. 3 just doesn't seem worth it without going to 4.

3 is dex to damage. That's pretty big on a lot of builds. What comes online at four really?

I have a vexing dodger and rogue 4 or MAYBE 5 is on the menu. There really isn't a lot to the class after that that you can't get elsewhere these days. The rogue vigilante has d4 instead of d6's sneak attack dice at the worst comparison, but much cooler tricks and 2 good saves.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
3 is dex to damage.

Not on the Core rogue.


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To be fair the Core Rogue is probably best forgotten, like everyone here seems to be doing to it. =)


There are plenty of good reasons to take the 4th level in Unchained Rogue if you've already got the first 3:
- Debilitating Injury: Can be used to overcome TWF penalty and help iterative attacks hit or debuff enemy attacks - I haven't seen this in action yet except on an NPC monster I built, but it seems kind of like Evil Eye Lite (granted just for attacks or AC)
- Rogue Talent: Probably around as good as a feat (and can be used to take certain feats)
- Uncanny Dodge: A pretty good ability which can help make getting surprised and or losing initiative much less painful
- Skill Points: not a big deal but helpful

4th level is also the last level you can take without suffering any additional BAB loss. If you're stuck looking at a Core Rogue you might want to press your group on why they'd make you play an outdated class which got rewritten. The Unchained Rogue is much better.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Well, when people remember to use the correct class ability names, I'll talk about the UCRogue. :P Trap Sense was mentioned, not Danger Sense.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
3 is dex to damage.
Not on the Core rogue.

The npc class?

*ducks*


Urban Ranger is a classic, and a favorite of mine.

For a full "rogue" experience, VMC rogue on a slayer gives you all the toys.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Well, when people remember to use the correct class ability names, I'll talk about the UCRogue. :P Trap Sense was mentioned, not Danger Sense.

The core Rogue doesn't exist. There is only one Rogue.

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