The biggest issue (medium sized eidolons, mount evolution tax) is mostly solved by the Eidolon Mount feat. You can ride from level 1, and the class features (like Shield Ally) largely support the style.
The only real problems are lack of combat feats and simple weapon proficiency, which you can kind of fenagle past with race selection.
Of course, light armor and a low fort save mean you're way more vulnerable doing your job than a cavalier or even a magus considering their spell selection.
Real talk though. I actually agree with BNF on the raw mechanics, at least to a point. Envoy is in the odd position where it doesn't have great weapon proficiency, it doesn't have the Operative's ability to make the smol weapons shine, can't drink the Exocortex kool-aid, and doesn't have spells to fall back on. If you're concerned with damage, kneeling down to the alter of the Holy Longarms Meta is your best bet.
Damoritosh knows I've spent my sunday mornings at mass.
But one thing I've noticed about Envoy is because it's slightly lacking in that prime, directing mechanic (Soldier's fighting style, spellcasting, trick attack, etc) it means you have a more open canvas for directing your build. Between that and a class with Improvisations that open up the door to a lot of style in addition to substance, and you're going to have a class that attracts different people for different reasons.
Your ideal Envoy most likely incorporates heavy weapons to make the most of their damage potential while doing Envoy things. Mine rushes recklessly into battle while buffing allies and singing to encouraging their violent urges. Someone else might play the 'spoony' style with emphasis on noncombat skills, taking pride in the fact that their characters will be more enjoyable and memorable for breaking the mold and standing out. I can definitely relate to wanting to stand out.
I could go on about the approach to character building, how some people start with a personality and figure out how to build it while some people create a build and then generate an interesting personality within those guidelines, but we've all got our own desires and I'm sure this post length is starting to hurt your eyeballs.
Thanks for reading. Have some kittens.
I have one example I like to look towards. The post may be a little old, but the one I go to is this one from James Jacobs as one way to think about it. While the "build your eidolon out of parts from other creatures" fits in more strongly with the old APG version, one could argue that an unchained devil eidolon is just made from several parts of different devils.
But honestly, I see it as up to the player in the long run. So long as you don't specifically go out there to find your eidolon in whatever form they hold on their home plane, it shouldn't be an issue.
A couple examples from my own roster:
1) The devil now known as Prisoner #129030 was one a powerful lord in hell, but lost all of his titles, and through them his power and very identity, buy going back on a contract in a grab for power. The tiny mote of essence that was his existence found its way to a summoner who specializes in 'rehabilitating' misbehaving outsiders. By making this do-or-die pact, the Prisoner was once again given flesh, though entirely on his Warden's allowance. Slowly but surely, through training and adventuring and good behavior, the prisoner is slowly earning back his former glory.
2) Hungry Wave Crashing Upon Faltering Embers is a water elemental that was pulled, quite unsuspectingly, into the service of his mistress. The merfolk known as Waverider Vashti interrupted a dark summoning ritual meant to call some horror from beyond the void into the seas of Golarion, in the process shifting its alignment towards the purity of water while using herself as the vessel. While slightly diminished in his potency, he is otherwise a fairly typical elemental.
Ran this a couple nights ago. Low tier, 4 player adjustment.
From the way I saw it, the Mngwa encounter should take place with the PCs awake and ready, since each night of 'torment' up to and including the combat encounters involve it making sounds to startle the party. I interpret this as giving them time to wake up, especially since its original intent is just to test them. The only issue is characters who don't want to sleep in their armor, but luckily that was only for our pregen Seelah, who (thanks to the d4) happened to be on watch and fully equipped when it struck.
One important note in the first fight is that there is a small amount of difficult terrain between it and the party, preventing a first round pounce. It won initiative, but I had it go into delay, hoping to see who the boldest/most foolish members were, and to punish them with a full attack. As no one approached it, the creature simply came out of delay and went after an isolated target (an animal companion, since I don't want to be too cruel)
The party succeeded at so many Empathy chest on the way that the true fight was less of a battle and more of a moment of triumph for the VIP. Aside from one round of pouncing the investigator while our man of the hour got his head in the game, things went off without a hitch.
Also, I would like to point out that our group realized that the Gremlin NPC is a Tiny Medium at Large tending Small hills with a Huge problem and that totally should have been a tagline somewhere.
Mark Q. McSlade wrote:
The four player adjustment for low tier in River Rat is no balance adjustment at all. The ship only has one weapon at that tier so loosing a gunner when you have two already is irrelevant.
The River Rat still has its main gun, yes, but
the way I wrote it the River Rat still needs a second gunner to man the turrets.
I've got a freshly 4th level Oozemorph in PFS and she's a delight. Her initial build is similar to Toxicsyn but I opted to keep it fairly simple. I think that's key.
18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 12 wis, 8 cha. Human partially because of backstory but also because bonus feats. I started with Power Attack and Improved Initiative. Took Animal Soul at 3rd and at 4th I retrained Improved Initiative into Animal Ally for a wolf. I'll be taking Boon Companion at 5th.
Companion aside it's super straightforward. Power Attack with solid strength and two natural attacks means she's a power house, and shifting into a troglodyte gives her claw/claw/bite with 20+ str. Having no magic item slots isn't a big deal because she won't have anything more than +1 armor and a basic cloak of resistance until she has 8 hours worth of personhood anyway. Abberant doggo will help flank and maybe do Bodyguard stuff. Plus they can be compression buddies.
The only serious consideration for her future is whether I want to focus on natural attacks or get Combat Reflexes and make use of a longspear.
I've also considered a dex based Ganzi who uses an alternate race trait to qualify for fighter feats. Weapon Specialization could make up for a lot of missing damage.
If we're banning archetypes for being absolutely broken dips, can we ban inspired blade? 5 out of 5 investigators I've had at my tables have the exact same one-level dip - one level of inspired blade for parry and Fencing Grace. It's the most flagrant example of such a "dip" since one level of crossblooded (draconic/orc) sorcerer.
For what it's worth, I think the biggest culprit goes back to the Swashbuckler's original design. Parry is, in my opinion, worth being a lategame of not capstone ability, and the fact that you front load it means that the class' greatest contribution to the game is a 1 level dip, regardless of class.
...then again, it also gets you Weapon Focus as a bonus feat, so it's pretty much "Fighter Plus." But hey, in all honesty we need more of that in the game. Pathfinder isn't anime enough, dangit.
Arc Riley wrote:
Hi, author of River Rat here. The shop's CT should totally be 11 in that case. That was an error on my part.
Same for a fail state for the space combat. If I could go back in time, I would probably write something like the following based on the NPC's strategy and the time expectations of a quest slot. Keep in mind this isn't from Paizo, so it's an unofficial patch.
If the players lose:
If the PCs' ship is disabled, Mr. Smiles casually apologises for ruining their ride before extolling them on the merits of minding their own business.
Knowing that reinforcements are a possibility and boarding could be risky, Mr. Smiles opts to ransom the PCs and their vessel for easy credits and then escape into the drift.
Venture-Captain Arvin welcomes the PCs home, expressing his gratitude for their safety and regret for sending them into danger with so little information. He is still able to bargain for the tablet fragment, albeit at a higher price to the Society.
The PCs do not get rewards for completing this quest.
The big check in this situation is for the Captain to buy time for the Science Officer to work their magic. Heck, based on a few sessions that I've run, the party even having a captain (never mind eager groups that simply jump into combat) also add some variables.
I forget if the repeating DC was a request by Thurston or an oversight on my part, but I would say it doesn't seem too troublesome on that context.
I'm going to go with some kind of class expansion book that offers new options. Every class has something to gain but the things I want to see the most are...
Drones getting new content. In particular, some kind of "Jetbike" chassis that actually lets you ride the thing without Bulk rules ruining the fun.
Solarian armor crystals would be nice but unlike Solarian weapon crystals and fusions, you can already install mods into your armor. Sooooo I can't see this having a lot of design space.
It's perfectly fine. If someone has a problem with the class, then it's likely that they've has some issues with someone else abusing the mechanics. A small handful may even be grumps about it. Don't let the grumps keep you down.
Just know how to handle the class and you'll be fine. Keep notes with summon monster stats. Make sure your Eidolon doesn't actively block players or step on their toes. Double check your evolutions so you can explain them to any confused GMs. Summoner Bookkeeping 101 stuff.
Glor Stonebeard wrote:
I'd appreciate the group's thoughts on the choice of Extended Range (120ft) for Kinetic Blast OR Kinetic Blade. Without the feat tax I'd go with range for sure. But The Feat Tax lets me finesse Kinetic Blade so my melee would be 1d6+5 vs the light mace at 1d6-1. Which is going to be more useful?
Honestly, I'd say you eventually want both. Staring with Blade means you can switch-hit effortlessly, and Kinetic Blast is going to do much, much more for you than any kind of backup melee weapon that you can buy. Then again, 30 feet is a pretty narrow window, especially with a 20 foot move speed, so I wouldn't be surprised if you wanted to go for Extended Range at the start. At the end of it, I'd suggest Kinetic Blade because you can literally dunk on people with it.
Kinetic Knight is a fun archetype, but keep in mind you'll be gving up any and all range capabilities. It's a very pivotal choice to make for a variety of reasons, but if you do, I strongly suggest high strength and not much dexterity boosting.
Oh I almost forgot: I'll also be working on building a proper brewery. Dwarves gotta have a drink now and then, aye?
Thank goodness someone's covering that. Clearly the most important role in the group.
This is a little late, buuuuuuut for anyone who might be interested, I could always slap together a game of Dwarf Fortress for those who didn't get in.
I mean, like, an actual run of the game, on my PC. I could create you guys as the forward expedition, built based on your specifications, and see how long it goes before it all ends in clowns and the circus.
I'll say I'm not a big fan of Automatic Bonus Progression. Less choice in how you grow, and the controlled arrangement of stat bonuses don't work with every class and build style. I'm a bit of a Big 6 fan who likes to tweak the numbers on my own but I'm perfectly happy to go along with the group if everyone else wants to run ABP.
Feat tax rules seem pretty legit.
Ranger, Alchemist, Gnome Bard, Geokineticist, Fighter, Brawler? Interesting party so far. I'm bouncing back and forth between how 'dwarfy' I want to be and how 'strange' I want to be with this one. On one hand I wouldn't mind trying out a Kinetic Healer, but on the other hand Spiritualist or Druid has a lot of fun potential for flavor with some good good support spells.
Thank you for the invite! I'm looking forward to this. I'll most likely be dwarfing it up, but I'll need just a smidge to finalize what I want to play. I may slip in something a little castery to help round out the group.
Survivalist hunter? Brewer alchemist? Lycanthrope themed shifter? Air kineticist who looks towards the open sky with the same terror and awe of a human cultist looking upon an eldrich horror in the dark tapestry?
I've had a ton of fun with the archetype. It's the perfect way to scratch my itch for playing monstrous characters.
Being unable to verbally communicate with the group is less of an issue when you can grow a pointed pseudopod and scrawl in the dirt or on a wall. Not being able to use gear isn't so bad when you have a few natural attacks to start with, and the 'no magic items' thing isn't crippling since you can hold a humanoid shape for a combined 8 hours per day by the time you're high enough level to start collecting magical swag anyway.
In my experience the biggest issue in the early levels is managing your AC in ooze form. It's just plain bad unless you're going Dex based, but in that case your early damage suffers. Overall its a slight downgrade from the base class but it isn't as bad as a lot of people say, especially with the errata/FAQs.
If you have any questions, I'm willing to help!
Core only game? Ouch.
The first thing I will suggest is that you communicate your intent to be a reach cleric to your allies and what that means for teamwork and cooperation. In my experience with pick-up Society tables, it's all too easy for overeager fightmans to charge right past your well placed spear wall and into the waiting jaws of the enemy.
As for skills? Acrobatics is great but you're stuck with 2+Int and it looks like you might be dumping that stat. Plus monster CMBs balloon out of control later on and your armor holds you back even more. I suggest you stick with the needs of the party. Knowledge (Religion) is a great one if the party doesn't have it, and Diplomacy is pretty much mandatory for at least someone to invest in. If those are covered (Try to figure out what your other 2 friends are going to play!) then you can always try rolling a Half Elf for perception. One less feat hurts, but having the +2 racial bonus and a free Skill Focus is something. Plus, it's still possible with the character's nationality.
I strongly suggest you don't multiclass. The sooner you get those spells, the better.
Hey, it's ya boy Urist.
Everybody get up, it's time to slam now:
Hey there! I'm Nate. I started with PnP RPGs at the dawn of the 2000's with a few friends in high school in 3rd edition of DnD. The game fell apart almost immediately, thanks to a lack of communication between the GM and the Players as to what they wanted out of the game. After that, I joined up with some friends at a FLGS and we had a grand old time of it. We played multiple campaigns over the following decade, enjoying everything from high adventure 3.5 to slow burn political games of Vampire the Masquerade and stories of personal tragedy in Changeling the Lost. Changes in schedule would eventually separate me from this group, but I've been an enthusiastic participant in Pathfinder Society for the past four of five years.
I first heard about Dwarf Fortress while hanging around the /tg/ board and the the whole culture of the thing fascinated me. Hearing stories about how horrible a fort could go, seeing the insane level of depth, and memes surrounding it. By the time I had finished reading the legend of Boatmurdered, I was in love. I still play the game off and on, making each session about trying to learn a new mechanic (last time I learned about how to make eggboxes and breed turkeys!) and sometimes catching old streams to put on in the background while I do other stuff.
My work schedule has me up in the late hours, Central Time. I would usually post in the evening and late evening, checking in on the afternoon from time to time. I'm new to Play-by-post, but I'm more than willing to learn and I've got a lot of local friends who are heavily involved and willing to lend me advice in the down-low.
I'm also a freelance writer, with my first notable credit coming out soon. Pardon if it sounds like an advertisement but I am REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THAT right now.
I'm considering creating my own personal rep sheet, ITS style. A sheet of three part brackets that let me track each individual reputation gain by faction and chronicle. Kinda like...
Followed by a list of each faction and my total reputation.
One of my characters is already difficult to read because of 3 consecutive adventures with rep tracked in a different way each time. If It's going to be a mess I may as well have my own version.
Hey, OP, let me answer your question with another question.
Think back to previous games where your healer-focused player has had more success with their role and the class fantasy. Now imagine any of the fights where the healer's turn comes up, but no one in the party has taken significant damage.
What does the player tend to do in these situations?
The more we know about what they want the more we can advise them without simply saying that Starfinder isn't the kind of system for that play style. (Not that I disagree with that statement)
The problem with Alchemist polymorph spells is that you'll be waiting until much higher levels to gain access to them. With higher levels and shorter durations, it's less likely that you'll be able to rely upon them for longer adventuring days.
Mutagen statts good and gets better, with claw/claw/bite being the gold standard for an early level natural attack build. While you cannot garuntee 100% uptime, the ability to brew a new one after an hour's work means it's more reliabe. Plus, with an archetype like Beastmorph, you have even more choice and variety. Plus it stacks with gear like Helm of the Mammoth Lord and Fleshwarped Scorpion Tail.
Either way, your buffs are temporary so be sure to carry backup weapons. My freakshow beastmorph made it to level 9 and she still gets use out of her masterwork cold iron longspear.
So I've got this skill focused eidolon, with claws on her hands and feet. Been thinking of giving her the evolution and/or necklace enchantment to add acid damage to these attacks.
If she automatically deals acid damage with her hand claws and foot claws, does that damage any object she's holding? Will it damage floors? Will it make Disable Device/Sleight of Hand harder to use, or in some cases even impossible?
Walter Shepard is a much better word-haver than I can ever brain, so I'm going to simply point upwards and say "yeah my thoughts are kinda like that."
But let's have some fun and go over my own journey in progress, one star at a time. May include speculation.
*: I have proven that I am not a puckered, winking goblinhole. Oh hey, I can play Black Waters again.
**: Oh my god why does this special need 15 maps.
***: Wait, I can run Gallows of Madness how many times for legal credit?
****: Rosc's log, year 20XX. They still think I know what I'm doing.
*****: And this. Is to go. Even further..... beyond!
7th level run.
We pushed ourselves to the limit, made use of every little thing on that character sheet, and learned a whole lot about the roller coaster of pleasant surprises and disappointments that is that walking bearded meme.
I'd say the most entertaining moment was when four rangers couldn't manage to start a fire because they didn't have flint and tinder (HOW DOES HE MAKE HIS TEA?!) but what really got me laughing was how I escaped by the skin of my eyelids as we were abandoning the dungeon after the 5th room. I was trying to squeeze around monsters with at will greater teleport while on my last few hit points. I was literally at the entrance, 5 feet away, when I was taken down.
And then we double checked the damage. And I was merely staggered! So I hobble my way forward and the session ends. The DM allowed us to basically 'teleport' out so long as we made it to the stairs.
Your mission is to sneak into a fancy dinner party in Cheliax to gather information about a missing ally with as little indecent as possible and the rest of the table is: Fighter, Barbarian, Warpriest, Archer Wizard
My desire to play my Oozemorph suddenly went from "just having fun" to a serious moral choice.
Alternatively, when the entirety of your party's healing capacity counting spells, classes, and items consists of a single Cure Light Wounds potion.
And the potion is used after the opening throw-away fight.
And the scenario has you fight a swarm with a Bleed that triggers on its damage.
I would love a game where the party are spawned by a Drakainia but they don't know it at the start. It starts off as an odd campaign with a "doors wide open" approach to available races and a ton of mutation focused campaign traits. The big reveal of their mayron could lead to them joining her or opposing her. Eventually goes mythic?
It would also introduce mutation/fertility focused bloodlines for sorcerer and barbarian.
Doing a Kingmaker style Dwarf Fortress campaign would be hella fun.
This. This this this. You could scale the civilization down to a normal perspective where the PCs are essentially building a dungeon home square by square. Heavy use of the Profession and Craft skills. Add a system to ease the strain of repeated character death because Losing Is Fun. Readily available replacements?
I'm not going to tell someone how to design a character, but if you cannot do something normally expected of your class, it's a really good idea to let the party know ahead of time.
Few things are as disheartening as hearing a player say "I'm not that kind of (Class)!" Several hours into a scenario well after you locked in a character based upon what you thought the party needed.
Rapier is a great weapon thanks to the crit range, but scimitar slightly outperforms it. DR/Slashing is a more common kind of Damare Reduction and when you're not casting spells you can 2-hand the scimitar for 1.5 times your strength modifier in damage.
Plus, if you get Power Attack, the bonus damage is even better when 2ha ding it.
But at the end of the day, just go with what seems fun. Hell, was planning a strength Magus with a mere 19-20 range crit weapon for funsies.
Shocking Grasp is a spell that obviously goes well with the class, bu5 Chill Touch and Frostbite are also reliable Spellstrike canidates, especially since they give you X attacks per caster level for each cast. Lot of mileage out of your lkmited spells per day.
Chill Touch in particular is a brutal main spell. Rime Spell metamagic feat lets it entangle people, and the Enforcer feat (when paired with the trait that lets you key intimidate off of intelligence) also lets you demoralize for free with each attack. Slap a Cruel enchantment onto your weapon and suddenly you'll be throwing half of the Condition Card deck at every opponent.
It isn't flawless. Things immune to cold/nonlethal/intimidate are harder to shut down, but that's what Shocking Grasp is for.
Regardless of your approach, I strongly suggest picking up a favorite spell, taking the Magical Lineage trait to make it easier to modify, and building around it accordingly.
Harold Ervin wrote:
Plase. Please no. Don't do this to me. I already struggle at areas where people mostly play fightmans in the 1-5 tier, and every other character at the table looks like a solid stone slab with the words "Power Attack" etched into it. I struggle with selecting a character when my choices are between "thing I wanted to play specifically for this faction/adventure but we'll be missing out in several obviously necessary skills" and "thing I don't want to play but they have diplomacy and spellcraft and knowledges." I don't want my fun to come at the risk of the group succeeding; that isn't very fun at all.
Please consider investing in knowledges.
I'm not seeing why you specifically need to rush to 15th to feel effective. Wild Shape kicks in at 4th and you learn a second form at 5th. That seems like your biggest notable leaps in power. You may learn cool stuff at 15th, but nothing that so drastically change the way you play. Especially when the FAQ changes were straight buffs across the board (with the Wild Shape duration being the only actual change in the way you might play or manage resources.)
Strength build into Tiger is really really strong. You're doing great with that, so you'll be good regardless of future levels.
As said before, Beastmorph/Vivisectionist generally gives you the most bang for your buck if you're set on multiclassing into alchemist. If you're in a home game, ask the GM if you can take the Additional Traits feat to get Magical Knack to help keep your Alchemist "caster level" in tact.
Also keep in mind the phsyical limitations of Wild Shape. Not only will it meld your alchemical toys into your body when you shift (hope a party member is willing and able to carry your things!) but unless you're in ape form or you have the hybrid shofter archetype you won't be able to use mutagen or extracts in combat.
You could take the Infusion discovery to turn your very limited pool of extracts into buffs that you pass out to the party, but your low alchemist level means you won't have much to share.
Also keep in mind the recent shifter FAQ that buffed the class, making it worth single classing to higher levels.
I'd say it's best to play it safe. Pick a 'main character' in your roster to get a few levels under their belt, focus on the Second Seekers faction, play every scenario tagged with them (There aren't that many!) and make sure to bring them to the season finale.
You probably won't have to play them in order, but the tier arrangements will guide you in that direction anyway.
It sure is! I'm super excited about seeing our hard work come to fruition. Can't wait to run it and play it!
My obvious reasons to like it aside, I'm also super happy that there's more evergreen content coming out. Not only that, but it's a 1-4, so it's way more inclusive to our characters.
I think we might be talking in slightly different directions here. To clarify, I wouldn't want people to deviate from their build. I don't want people to have to lose a ton of gold for this, either. I'm mainly saying that everyone should invest a small amount of gold in a reliable ranged weapon as a just-in-case.
I have been in multiple situations where not having even that basic equipment has caused a ton of frustration to that fighter's player or even the entire table.
It is not "bad tactics" to be self sufficient and make sure your combat-focused character can actually participate in combat.
Well I've seen encounters in 1-5 where an enemy with a primary ranged attack just cannot be reached in a short amount of time, thanks to the enemy being a flyer or being on the other side of a cliff or simply on high ground. You don't need to be able to fly to deal with that but a fair number of fightmans don't equip themselves for that situation in mind and it's frustrating for the whole table.
Oh, and my idea of low level is 1-5. Past that casters can usually cast every turn, builds have come online, fightmans have more attacks, and skill specialists start to really pull ahead of the dabblers.
Summoners have Summon Monster as a spell like tons of times per day. They're better off than most classes in these kinds of situations.