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Imbicatus wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
More relevantly, monsters work that way now. How often can a 3rd level wizard cast invisibility? How often can a quasit do so?
From what we've seen so far, monsters and NPCs are generated the same way. NPCs just use Class Grafts, same as the basic PFU monster generation system Starfinder modifies. Which had the exact same problem, where a 5th level NPC wizard can cast infinite magic missiles.

Except a 5tl level npc really can't cast infinite magic missiles, because they won't have enough time to in an encounter. Action economy and the fact that four highly motivated pcs are trying to kill them means that it's not likely to be able to cast its limited use spells, much less at will.

At will just means it will never run out in this encounter. If it's a npc ally and they might actually have meaning to track the usage throughout the day, build the npc as an actual caster class and just remove stamina. Or not.

Kill them? Please. If I were a PC and my enemies suddenly had infinite magic missles, I'd very much consider Dominating them instead.


Mashallah wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Technomancer may be on 4 SP, but I suspect it will be Solarions who join soldiers in the low band.
They're called Solarians. Moreover, 4 SP is the low band - that's what Soldiers have.

Even in the grim darkness of the future, fighters can't into skill points.


Mashallah wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
Mashallah wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
Mashallah wrote:
CKent83 wrote:
Mashallah wrote:
Charisma is a clear dump stat for virtually any Pathfinder class without Charisma-based class features, especially given how trivial it is to replace CHA with INT on skills. That, in my eyes, is poor design.

So what? If you want to say Ability Score consolidation is a bad thing, what about using Dex for Damage? Totally turns Str into a Dump stat, you'll never really need to have it on an optimized character. Instead of a greatsword, just have 2 swords and you're golden. Strength is a clear dump stat for virtually any Pathfinder class without Strength-based class features. That, in my eyes, is poor design.

I'm just ribbing you with that last part. Seriously though, there are plenty of classes that utilize Charisma, including my favorite class, The Paladin. Sure it has Charisma based abilities, but that also lets you put points into Skills that key off of Charisma so you can be more than a beat stick.

The truth is that not all Ability Scores are created equal. Some need classes that have abilities key off of them instead of being able to rely on core game mechanics. That's OK, because there are a lot of people that abhor any kind of dump stat. A friend of mine loves playing dwarves, but always has at least a 12 Charisma before racial modifiers so he never has a penalty. Personally, I've never used Charisma as a dump stat, but the next time I play a Ranger I will because I thought up a backstory that leaves him physically and mentally scarred and bitter.

Wow, that went on for a little longer than I thought it would. Apologies for the rant.

Mind you, I never said anything good about STR, either. I think STR is also poorly designed in this game.

CON, DEX, INT, WIS, are all useful for virtually any character (with a few edge cases that can make one or another of those stats redundant through class features). STR and CHA? Designated
...

3.5e is close enough in game design space.


Mashallah wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
Mashallah wrote:
CKent83 wrote:
Mashallah wrote:
Charisma is a clear dump stat for virtually any Pathfinder class without Charisma-based class features, especially given how trivial it is to replace CHA with INT on skills. That, in my eyes, is poor design.

So what? If you want to say Ability Score consolidation is a bad thing, what about using Dex for Damage? Totally turns Str into a Dump stat, you'll never really need to have it on an optimized character. Instead of a greatsword, just have 2 swords and you're golden. Strength is a clear dump stat for virtually any Pathfinder class without Strength-based class features. That, in my eyes, is poor design.

I'm just ribbing you with that last part. Seriously though, there are plenty of classes that utilize Charisma, including my favorite class, The Paladin. Sure it has Charisma based abilities, but that also lets you put points into Skills that key off of Charisma so you can be more than a beat stick.

The truth is that not all Ability Scores are created equal. Some need classes that have abilities key off of them instead of being able to rely on core game mechanics. That's OK, because there are a lot of people that abhor any kind of dump stat. A friend of mine loves playing dwarves, but always has at least a 12 Charisma before racial modifiers so he never has a penalty. Personally, I've never used Charisma as a dump stat, but the next time I play a Ranger I will because I thought up a backstory that leaves him physically and mentally scarred and bitter.

Wow, that went on for a little longer than I thought it would. Apologies for the rant.

Mind you, I never said anything good about STR, either. I think STR is also poorly designed in this game.

CON, DEX, INT, WIS, are all useful for virtually any character (with a few edge cases that can make one or another of those stats redundant through class features). STR and CHA? Designated dump stats for almost everyone. Look at the Orator feat.
...

In a game I am currently in, every party member has it.


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Mashallah wrote:
CKent83 wrote:
Mashallah wrote:
Charisma is a clear dump stat for virtually any Pathfinder class without Charisma-based class features, especially given how trivial it is to replace CHA with INT on skills. That, in my eyes, is poor design.

So what? If you want to say Ability Score consolidation is a bad thing, what about using Dex for Damage? Totally turns Str into a Dump stat, you'll never really need to have it on an optimized character. Instead of a greatsword, just have 2 swords and you're golden. Strength is a clear dump stat for virtually any Pathfinder class without Strength-based class features. That, in my eyes, is poor design.

I'm just ribbing you with that last part. Seriously though, there are plenty of classes that utilize Charisma, including my favorite class, The Paladin. Sure it has Charisma based abilities, but that also lets you put points into Skills that key off of Charisma so you can be more than a beat stick.

The truth is that not all Ability Scores are created equal. Some need classes that have abilities key off of them instead of being able to rely on core game mechanics. That's OK, because there are a lot of people that abhor any kind of dump stat. A friend of mine loves playing dwarves, but always has at least a 12 Charisma before racial modifiers so he never has a penalty. Personally, I've never used Charisma as a dump stat, but the next time I play a Ranger I will because I thought up a backstory that leaves him physically and mentally scarred and bitter.

Wow, that went on for a little longer than I thought it would. Apologies for the rant.

Mind you, I never said anything good about STR, either. I think STR is also poorly designed in this game.

CON, DEX, INT, WIS, are all useful for virtually any character (with a few edge cases that can make one or another of those stats redundant through class features). STR and CHA? Designated dump stats for almost everyone. Look at the Orator feat. Look at the Clever Wordplay trait. Outside of "I take CHA...

>there's no reason to ever have CHA above 7 if you don't have CHA-based class features.

Leadership.


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rooneg wrote:
rooneg wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:

For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?

As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.

Yes, this.

I mean I get it, there is limited information out there so it's super tempting to jump on whatever you get and make it THE THING to talk about, but maybe lets keep in mind that the game is hundreds of pages long, and looking at any bit of it out of context and then drawing conclusions is perhaps not terribly helpful.

So you're saying that abilities that provide cross-class synergies are bad if the other players don't build to take advantage of them? Umm, yeah. That's kind of how synergies work. If you're going to play a character who is made to synergize with other characters you're going to need another player who's interested in making that work and makes the appropriate choices when building their character. It takes two to tango, and that's a feature not a bug. If for some reason you aren't in a position to make that happen, maybe make different choices when building your character.

It would be best if your class feature could stand on it's own, and also provide synergies for the party.


Frankly, even with the information we have, we have no good reason to expect this will hold true at later levels. Envoys might be getting very powerful abilities later, whereas Mystics would peter out and become useless past level 5.


Meh. Doesn't even get into my top 10 weirdest things I have seen this week.


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knightnday wrote:


Mashallah wrote:
Disclaimer that you forgot to add: that is purely your personal subjective opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
It goes without saying. Anything anyone is saying on the internet is their personal subjective opinion.

2+2=4


>Chris (giving benefit of the doubt) proactively reaches out to say why and here's your stuff

Chris did not reach out proactively. Until I started a thread on the website feedback subforum, no proactive actions were taken. There wasn't even a notification in the "Ask Ashiel Anything" thread, which I admit could have been due to technical issues.


I am afraid I can't provide a copy of the feedback thread containing the response to the moderation o Ashiel's thread pre-moderation of that feedback thread. Apparently, reposting deleted posts in any way isn't allowed.


NenkotaMoon wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
And not letting the community see the whole picture supports fair, balanced and informed conversation?
Well the ones that just got removed were all sort of aimed at you so....

How is this relevant to the topic at hand?


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And not letting the community see the whole picture supports fair, balanced and informed conversation?


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Ravingdork wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
It's gear value goes straight out of your WBL, so you either both end up with s~+%ty gear, or your cohort ends up without any

Actually, it doesn't. Cohorts are built using the rules for NPCs, and NPCs start with their own gear. Sure you need to keep up as the game goes on, but from my experience, hand-me-down items are more than plentiful.

Klara Meison wrote:
Any time your cohort dies, you get -2 to your Leadership score. This is permanent. Literally nothing short of DM fiat could increase your Leadership score back up. This means that each cohort death permanently cripples your following cohorts.

This doesn't happen whenver your cohort dies. It happens whenever you are the direct cause of his death, such as when you murder them, or when you send them on known suicide missions.

Klara Meison wrote:
All of those taken together mean that your cohort will be way weaker* than you(and as such, a very attractive target in combat for your enemies) AND you get painful penalties for losing those. So, cohort will likely stay in camp all day.

As I said, there is usually no penalty for losing the cohort other than losing the cohort. What's more, it's pretty easy for a player with high system mastery to build a lower level cohort that is more powerful than the full-leveled character of another player with less system mastery. Heck, I've done this myself (unintentionally of course).

Klara Meison wrote:
But that also causes problems! Now BBEG could assault your cohort while you aren't there. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You will have to let them tag around with you on adventures, but not let them get very close to scary dragons and such.

I think you are underestimating how powerful/useful a cohort can potentially be. And yes, they do make good plot hooks for the GMs sometimes.

Klara Meison wrote:
So what could they give you and the party? Well, crafting is one thing. Healing spells(Restoration and such) are another.
...

>Actually, it doesn't. Cohorts are built using the rules for NPCs, and NPCs start with their own gear.

NPCs don't get a lot of money in comparison to PCs. In this case, it will be something like 10% of your WBL, at best. That's... not much.

>hand-me-down items are more than plentiful.

I am not sure what you mean. Hand-me-down items would be included in your WBL, I imagine? You were using them at some point like just normal items, right?

>This doesn't happen whenver your cohort dies. It happens whenever you are the direct cause of his death, such as when you murder them, or when you send them on known suicide missions.

Well, I concede. If your cohort really really wants to go into combat and then dies, penalty won't be applied. But if you, say, ordered them to go into combat with you...

>I think you are underestimating how powerful/useful a cohort can potentially be.

Perhaps. I do think that restricting class selection to the less powerful options and building cohorts with a 3PB is enough to bring the feat down from ridiculous levels everyone seems to think it's at.


lemeres wrote:
Klara Meison wrote:
[list]
  • It's gear value goes straight out of your WBL, so you either both end up with s#$%ty gear, or your cohort ends up without any
  • We are all looking at the wizard for that too. One of the problems with allowing the player to design the cohort is that they can make the cohort into a crafter, which saves ob WBL with 1/2 costs.

    If it is a melee guy... then your list absolutely applies. Heck, that is why I would say the squire feat is more balanced, since the class selection is reduced to something more manageable. It can make the cohort into 'animal companion, with easier equipment and maybe good skills if you go with a ranger'.

    But a wizard sitting in the back with less care about HP and BAB?... yeah... That is dicier.

    Not sure what BaB has to do with this. Wizard-cohort is still a target for fireballs cast by the enemies requiring saves, and arrows shot by them requiring AC. Yes, they could craft gear for themselves too, but where are they finding all that time to do that? And I would honestly prefer to have my character with great gear over having a second, s@&*tier version of my character.


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    It's not anymore broken than wish machines. You will get another person who is, at best, 2 levels lower than you, and a bunch of low-level mooks.

    Mooks are pretty much just pure fluff, since they won't be of any use in combat. Cohort is more trouble than people make it out to be, and you probably wouldn't want to send it into combat, for the following reasons:

    • It's gear value goes straight out of your WBL, so you either both end up with s~~#ty gear, or your cohort ends up without any

    • It's at least 2 levels lower than you(and probably more, if you aren't maxing charisma), which means lower saves, HD and HP.

    • It is an additional party member, which means additional strain on whatever measures you are taking to protect the party(e.g. if you are traveling through a volcano, it means one more Resist Energy and Endure Elements)

    • Any time your cohort dies, you get -2 to your Leadership score. This is permanent. Literally nothing short of DM fiat could increase your Leadership score back up. This means that each cohort death permanently cripples your following cohorts.

    All of those taken together mean that your cohort will be way weaker* than you(and as such, a very attractive target in combat for your enemies) AND you get painful penalties for losing those. So, cohort will likely stay in camp all day.

    But that also causes problems! Now BBEG could assault your cohort while you aren't there. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You will have to let them tag around with you on adventures, but not let them get very close to scary dragons and such.

    So what could they give you and the party? Well, crafting is one thing. Healing spells(Restoration and such) are another. Long-term buffs could be helpful too. Overall, this would help you, but shouldn't directly unbalance any encounters during the day.

    *Now, when I say that, it's not quite true. Some classes in pathfinder are just that good that they could live just fine without any gear(Wizard, I am looking at you). A way to balance that would be by restricting class options for the cohort, such as restricting it to only tier 3-5 classes, or even just NPC classes. And...that's all you need to do to bring it to reasonable levels, honestly. Mooks aren't even a consideration-what are they going to do, bring you coffee? Polish your boots while you sleep? Nothign broken about that.


    Kryzbyn wrote:

    Let's say you manage a restaurant. You have a table of 6 people sitting and talking about various things. Someone walks by and misshears a statement. They decide to call out the person they misunderstood, while getting heated, while the table, for the most part, tries to explain that they misunderstood, and they need to stop, and do not get heated. Person relents, and walks away (then possibly complains to management).

    Table goes back to discussion.

    Do you:
    1) Let it be, as it's obviously over;
    2) Talk to the person that disrupted the table;
    3) Ban a person at the table who's complained about service in the past.

    >3) Ban a person at the table who's complained about service in the past.

    ...given that that person is having a birthday party and other 5 people on the table are their friends.


    Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
    Klara Meison wrote:

    > they will moderate their forums in a manner that best ensures they keep the greatest number of customers

    Funny that, I have heard from 5 separate people that they would be leaving these forums after this debacle because they are dissapointed over how it has been handled. So that's 5 customers paizo has lost over this incident. How many have they gained, exactly? How does this strategy look like in the long term?

    Then again, you don't know how many may have PMed the moderators that they were having a bad experience because they were flamed by an Ashiel, or a LazarX. Since Paizo isn't going to show that set of cards, we're operating from half guesses at best.

    I first created an account on these forums because I read a post by Ashiel where she was explaining some of her ideas on alternative spellcasting mechanics. Among other things, she mentioned giving spellcasters all spells from all spell lists and a 10-th level of spells to boot. I wrote her a private message saying (I am paraphrasing here) "What the f$*$ do you mean all spells from all spell lists? Don't spellcasters get enough good toys already?"

    I expected to get a short reply, perhaps 10 sentences tops, explaining her general idea. What I got was 3 pages of detailed explanations, with examples and good math, of why that makes sense, what other changes she wanted to make to balance that out, all extremely polite, kind and good-natured. In response to a random private message by a noob she knew nothing about or ever seen before.

    I'd love to see a flaming Ashiel, but unfortunately, so far that sight remains as attainable to me as unicorns.


    > they will moderate their forums in a manner that best ensures they keep the greatest number of customers

    Funny that, I have heard from 5 separate people that they would be leaving these forums after this debacle because they are dissapointed over how it has been handled. So that's 5 customers paizo has lost over this incident. How many have they gained, exactly? How does this strategy look like in the long term?


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    Her profile picture is actually Seoni under some weird lightning. As for pronouns, she has repeatedly stated she doesn't care which ones people use. I prefer she since it fits the avatar image.


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    captain yesterday wrote:

    She was banned for using and encouraging a negative, and combative environment towards Paizo.

    It had nothing to do with gender.

    She was becoming a bully.

    I personally found her to be arrogant, dismissive, and rude, with a complete unwillingness to compromise or look at it from another angle.

    > She was banned for using and encouraging a negative, and combative environment towards Paizo.

    First of all, you are neither a mod nor quoting a mod, so you probably shouldn't make definite statements like this.

    Secondly, if encouraging such an environment is an instant bannable offence, it should be mentioned in the damned community guidelines to prevent further incidents such as this.


    I am hoping customer service would carefully review this issue. Really, that's the only thing we could hope for at the moment.


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    NenkotaMoon wrote:
    But didn't they email Ashiel?

    1. Ashiel wasn't the only one whose posts have been removed.

    2. They only even mentioned removal after I specifically asked them about it on the website feedback forum. There was no notification of their deletion before that. Emails came even later, when Ashiel specifically asked for her posts to be emailed to her.


    Kobold Cleaver wrote:
    Did you email them about it? I'm not trying to be argumentative or patronizing, but you generally aren't supposed to handle those issues on the forums at all. I've always found the mods to be pretty responsive when emailed privately.

    I make my own private copies of every thread I post in to avoid this exact issue. This isn't about the posts, this is about moderators removing posts with no notification or regard for common sense or community guidelines.


    Kobold Cleaver wrote:

    Okay, so the basic gist of what happened, from my retrospective perspective: An argument about a very emotional and contentious subject (transgender representation) was getting really unpleasant, as a lot of points were getting misread or misunderstood. The mods stepped in to put a stop to things, deleting a large number of posts involved in thee issue.

    A thread was started to protest the deletions, fairly pointing out an error the mods had made (the mods had not made a clarifying post stating the reasons for the deletion yet). The mods apologized for the error and offered a clarification that, to my eyes, was sufficient—the argument was clearly going downhill in a hurry. Again, I'm not interested in playing the blame game on why it was going downhill, but it looked a lot less civil than other threads that have been outright locked. And I know locked threads. The mods asked for the issue to be taken to private emails, but people continued to post complaints on the Website Feedback thread.

    Ashiel was sent the retrieved posts, as promised, as well as a personal note of apology. I feel like Ashiel's response was somewhat disproportionate—not their personal emotional response, as I am never inclined to invalidate anyone's pain (I think calling it "melodramatic" is totally out of line), but their written response. It treated the Paizo mods like censoring tyrants for closing an unfriendly conversation. In fact, it called them censoring tyrants for it.

    What Paizo did is nothing new, nor is it any grand display of censorship. When an argument turns vitriolic, they step in. My sympathies go to Ashiel, but I am not inclined to resent the moderators' actions over this. I would have liked it if either party had tried harder to make things work and really work with the other to understand each other's problems, but neither party was obliged to do so.

    Ashiel, I wish you the best, and I hope that this ban only lasts a week before people sort things out. I feel like this was in a lot of ways a communications...

    >The mods stepped in to put a stop to things, deleting a large number of posts involved in thee issue

    Along with 16 other posts completely unrelated to the issue. When the issue of these posts being deleted was raised in the aforementioned website feedback thead, my post was deleted and thread got locked.


    It's not really about this issue, it's a straight-up continuation of the old thread.


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    >have included the removed posts from your account below

    Funny how I recevided the exact same message, except it only contained one post out of 4-ish that got removed. Granted, it was the biggest one, but still.

    Also, fight the power.

    Uh, sorry, wrong link. I meant to say you can't kill an idea, they have a nasty tendency to resurrect.


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    There are other forums which don't care what people discuss, like I think spacebattles or sufficient velocity. I have seen some things discussed there which I am not sure should be discussed anywhere, yet they are generally more or less fine as far as community is concerned.


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    Kryzbyn wrote:
    That GitP idea is sounding better and better.

    I just so happened to read through their rules, and they don't allow discussion related to some topics that pop up in this thread from time to time(mainly Real-world politics (including political reactions to gaming) and Explicit sexuality). Don't know how much they police that place though.


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    Who is the darth vader in your analogy?


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    You should check it out. Amazing stuff.


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    Have you ever read George Orwell?


    I am afraid I still don't understand. Who was abusing whom in that conversation? I would very much like to know what sort of behavior should I avoid in the future, since by my understanding of the word and intent of community guidelines there were no violations there. Obviously, there were, and my understanding is therefore flawed. I would greatly appreciate it if you explained it in more detail.


    I am afraid I don't see "flaring tempers" in the community guidelines. Given that the discussion in question didn't violate any other guidelines as far as I can tell, does that mean that that guideline has been missed by whomever was typing them out? Terribly sorry for the inconvenience, I am just trying to understand how things work around here.


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    Hello. Yesterday I had a nice discussion concerning adventure path design with some other members of the community. Today I find that that discussion has been removed in it's entirety, including my posts, and no notification related to the reasons behind the removal has been posted by the moderators in that thread or sent to my private messages.

    Would it be possible to receive a clarification concerning that discusison in regards to what community guidelines in particular have been violated?


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    Question to people other than Ashiel: how have you found this thread for the first time?


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    I wonder what is the "fair" villain-to-hero ratio. 1 to 4? 1 to 2? Probably closer to 1 to 8 if villain is a goblin with a clan and heroes have to pass through it's lair.


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    She could let some of us play the villains and let the problem sort itself out.


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    Tels wrote:

    On the topic of the Elixir...

    Richard Magarey before elixir.
    Richard Magarey after elixir.
    And again...
    This time, with music!

    This is, essentially, what the elixir would do. Richard Magarey, better known for his crossdressing pro-wrestling persona of Lady Beard, is obviously recognizeable whether in "normal" clothing or in female clothing, just as he would be if he drank the elixir.

    On the subject of multiple deities...

    My issue with multiple deities is that such a thing can only happen with different cultures.

    For example, in the Elder Scrolls universe, the different factions and races may worship gods under different names, but each one is still the same God. Lorkhan, for instance, is a God seen as a great hero of Men, but he is reviled by the elves for his part in the creation of Nirn. Why? Because Lorkhan tricked the Aedra into giving up part of their divine essence to create the planet Nirn. Some managed to stop the flow and retain most (but not all) of their divine spark and are worshiped as gods. Others were unable to do so, and began living on Nirn. These diminshed Aedra began procreating, and from them came the ancestors, the Ehlnofey, who would eventually separate and evolve into the Men and the Mer.

    The races of Men hail Lorkhan as a champion of Men, for they would not exist without him. While the races of Mer, curse Lorkhan for stealing their divinity and rendering them mortal.

    The different races and cultures of Elder Scrolls may use different names, and have different viewpoints, but they all worship the same gods. Akatosh, Auri-El, Alkosh are different names for the same being; the...

    That's another reason I like Mythic. You could get very natural local gods that way, by just making them from powerful members of the community. And it means that PCs could actually kill a god without DM fiat and take their place.


    master_marshmallow wrote:
    Squiggit wrote:
    Quote:
    3. Marshmallow Fallacy
    That's not a real fallacy. Stop. That an ability is really bad CAN very easily make it not worth using and the difference between 'so bad you should never use it' and 'doesn't exist' is pretty moot.

    Except that it isn't and it doesn't.

    Stop perpetuating the fallacy by claiming it's valid.

    To answer the question: "can this be done?" the answer is "yes"

    Personal bias doesn't change that. Hell, even actually playing one and not having fun doesn't mean the option isn't there.

    Naming a fallacy after yourself isn't particularily modest, wherever or not it's true. At least make a website where you explain what it is.


    kyrt-ryder wrote:

    Transformation is a spell that comes online when martials are getting their 3rd itterative. 2-3 levels later a rod of quickening becomes affordable for it.

    Some wizard schools/archtypes are decently suited to the role.

    Eldritch Knight is also a thing, with a trait to make up for up to 2 lost caster levels.

    NEVERMIND!

    6. Wizard, fluff as occult.


    How soon do you need it? I love the subject, but currently have some stuff to deal with, so would only be able to help tomorrow.


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    No, Wizard just isn't full BaB, there is no real way to turn him into one, and any other answer wouldn't have fit the theme.


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    Icehawk wrote:
    If I take their head off then dispel them, does it reattach?

    Allow me to generalise that question. How do things map into one another when polymorphing? E.g. how many legs will a druid be missing if they were wildshaped into an octopus when they lost 5 tentacles?


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    Ashiel wrote:
    Hm, you could use polymorph any object to transform a person into a corpse temporarily, cast sculpt corpse, and profit?

    Wouldn't that be permanent?


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    Icehawk wrote:

    I sorta have a different take on this stuff. To me it seems a little weird, depending where you are, that it is considered unusual.

    One thing that the game has a lot of is shape shifters of various types and tokens. Tons of them. Never mind the illusionists and people with various items and so forth. The psychology of entities without a strong tie to a specific form is quite fascinating because of how hard it is for us to conceive of it.

    Now obviously regions that don't have a strong magical presence probably would find it weird, but areas that do often have to share space with creatures from beyond mortality in every form that may take, as well as people who generally defy gravity and so forth. Probably becomes about as remarkable as every other crazy wizard who does things for reasons. Might not be conducive to true understanding, but it'd be less remarkable, particularly since compared to the guy who animates hedge animals it's on the grand scheme way less flashy.

    But I definitely get the issue of Anevia and Irabeth. Anevia's origins just never came up for the pcs when I ran it. I didn't see a reason why she'd bring it up, and they never asked. Far as they cared, she's just a tomboyish girl who sleeps with the half orc lady who takes care of their city when they aren't there. They spent way more time wanting to get to know the CE Barbarian who surrendered to them in book 2 who I have absolutely no background information on and thus had to invent things for.

    Honestly, they never seemed interested in any of the listed npcs and gravitated to any I had to invent. Well cept the demon lord anyways. Who always seems to end up more popular than Iomedae from the threads I read. Funny how that works out. You've no idea how many faithful of the succubus queen I've seen since I ran that now.

    >Honestly, they never seemed interested in any of the listed npcs and gravitated to any I had to invent. Well cept the demon lord anyways. Who always seems to end up more popular than Iomedae from the threads I read. Funny how that works out. You've no idea how many faithful of the succubus queen I've seen since I ran that now.

    You are surprised people gravitate to a "god, except with blackjack and hookers instead of praying"?

    >Because you are recognizable as the same person and it gives no benefits when being disguised (not even a little circumstance bonus). :|

    Yes, but they could still recognise your current gender, and that you have switched it, at least that's how I understand it.


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    >grants no benefit on Disguise skill checks or similar checks.

    It also grants no benefit on Disguise skill checks to be recognised as a different(i.e. former) sex. I should think it implies some degree of visual changes, at least enough to visibly change sex.


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    Buri Reborn wrote:
    kyrt-ryder wrote:
    All classes are in the same section.

    This honestly doesn't imply that. A buffet showcases all choices but doesn't infer the health content of a given dish.

    kyrt-ryder wrote:
    All classes are presented as comparavle choices.

    Again, I don't see this stated anywhere, at least, not with your implication. They *are* comparable in the "what the pros/cons" sense of things.

    kyrt-ryder wrote:
    The Challenge Rating of a wizard or Druid is the same as a core chained monk oe rogue.

    A given theme of the system is that, within a given CR, there can be large disparities of power. For example, CR 1 swarms immune to all weapon damage and any CR rank that contains a casting and non-casting creature.

    kyrt-ryder wrote:
    There is no warning anywhere in the PH: MAGIC IS STRONGER THAN MUSCLE, CHOOSE NONCASTING CLASSES AT YOUR OWN PERIL. When there should be.
    I don't think this is so black and white. Such a warning would be disingenuous. Yes, there are plenty of cases where that's true. However, the barbarian and monk are quite formidable without needing spells.

    >A buffet showcases all choices but doesn't infer the health content of a given dish.

    Hmm, let's test that. Suppose I were a new player who had no idea what dnd even was before, and all I knew about fantasy were films and cartoons I have watched and books I have read. I open the CRB and try to select a class for myself, and let's say that I want to go for a basic hero concept, the sort that slays dragons, saves princesses and defeats evil warlocks. I read the class role descriptions, and see this:

    mysterious CLASS 1 wrote:
    CLASS 1 excel at combat—defeating their enemies, controlling the flow of battle, and surviving such sorties themselves. While their specific weapons and methods grant them a wide variety of tactics, few can match CLASS 1 for sheer battle prowess.
    mysterious CLASS 2 wrote:
    More than capable of upholding the honor of their deities in battle, CLASS 2 often prove stalwart and capable combatants. Their true strength lies in their capability to draw upon the power of their deities, whether to increase their own and their allies' prowess in battle, to vex their foes with divine magic, or to lend healing to companions in need. As their powers are influenced by their faith, all CLASS 2 must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of CLASS 2 revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)
    mysterious CLASS 3 wrote:
    While some CLASS 3 might keep to the fringe of battle, allowing companions and summoned creatures to fight while they confound foes with the powers of nature, others transform into deadly beasts and savagely wade into combat. CLASS 3 worship personifications of elemental forces, natural powers, or nature itself. Typically this means devotion to a nature deity, though CLASS 3 are just as likely to revere vague spirits, animalistic demigods, or even specific awe-inspiring natural wonders.
    mysterious CLASS 4 wrote:
    While universalist CLASS 4 might study to prepare themselves for any manner of danger, specialist CLASS 4 research schools of magic that make them exceptionally skilled within a specific focus. Yet no matter their specialty, all CLASS 4 are masters of the impossible and can aid their allies in overcoming any danger.

    These 4 class discriptions were made up by me on the spot, any and all correlations with the ones in the CRB are entirely coincidental.

    Now, I have no idea how Pathfinder works, how it plays, what is a good idea and what's not. So I think to myself "O boy! CLASS 1 sounds perfect for my idea! I bet CLASS 2 through 4 couldn't hold a candle to me in a fight!". So I pick CLASS 1 (let's call it freighter), play, and lo and behold, it can't hold a candle to classes 2 through 4 in a fight, who just cast "Annihilate Nuissance". I get sad. Whoops, should have been psychic to know what was a trap option beforehand somehow!


    HeHateMe wrote:

    Oh there are so, so many things PF can't do, unfortunately.

    1. A martial that isn't absolutely terrible.

    2. A shapeshifter that can turn into something besides "nature forms". I'd love a shapeshifter that can do humanoids, aberrations, undead, outsiders, etc.

    3. A "dread knight" type of character. Basically a melee caster whose abilities revolve around fear and pain.

    4. Any of my favorite 4E classes: Warden, Warlord, Battlemind, Swordmage, Runepriest, Invoker.

    5. An elementalist character that can actually control the elements.

    6. A full BAB, d10 HD occult class.

    I can do this all day. Personally, I hate most of Paizo's classes. Why? Because there are no original ideas, just different variations of the same boring ideas. Oracles are divine Sorcerers, Spiritualist is a psychic Summoner with a much worse pet, Mesmerist is a psychic bard. And when they do decide to try something original, we get turds like the Kineticist and Medium.

    1. Wizard

    2. Wizard

    3. Wizard

    4. Not sure what those do, but probably Path of War.

    5. Wizard


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    Eh, whatever.

    What do your characters ususally drink whenever they want to crash in a tavern for a while? Tea, coffie, ale?

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