It is insanely frustrating when you point out situations where something is going to be overpowered and people continually argue something else from a completely different situation.
In this thread I've had to explain that yes, we're talking about a hypothetical vigilante that combined avenger and stalker with access to all the talents options from both twice.
and now we have a response to my "in the surprise round this" that answers with something that has nothing to do with in the surprise round.
I do not believe you people have very good arguments as to why it would not eclipse every other martial out there.
In a game run by a friend (which I'm not in) a couple of characters are discovering that mirror image after working for ages has stopped being reliable due to enemies seeing thru illusions in the last few sessions of their game.
Yeah, but you still wanna layer defenses. maybe SOME of what you fight is immune to illusions but at the point EVERYTHING you fight is immune to non mind affecting illusions you're kinda getting a raw deal
If high level martials were EXPECTED to have pounce there would be more options for it than...what bard monk vigilante and shifter? Someone would have wrote a feat that keyed off whirlwind attack or something.
Stalker vigilantes don't get ITWF til 8, which means TWrend comes late.
Also, im sorry but the mad rush/stalker thing is a big deal. Pounce is a big deal when you have vigilante sneak and are two weapon fighting. Its nearly 30 damage a hit, even if it doesnt multiply on a crit. Like the commentary there about peoples unchained rogue?
Literally irrelevant given that we're talking about a "sneak attack" martial with full BAB and pounce. You can parse and ignore aspects of the class and try to restrict or widen focus however you want but the package of stalker+avenger would wildly outclass other martials quickly.
Diego Rossi wrote:
except RAW "make a perception check to notice a trap without declaring you're searching for it" is a rogue talent and they took "make a perception check for going near a secret door" from elves.
So...unless you want to blunder into traps and miss secret doors, you're still rolling to check every 10X10 square.
You literally aren't following the conversation.
The discussion in question wrote:
My position is that simply applying both specializations to vigilante creates an Ur-Martial that has a strong potential to wildly outshine all the others by virtue of being equal to superior in combat output, and better even than a number of 6 level casters at out of combat engagement.
And if you TWF you're going to use lethal grace. Its also conveniently the fighting style that benefits most from having pounce, and the fighting style that synergizes best with having access to "sneak attack"
Vigilante doesn't replace the barbarian (who can get pounce on their own of course), or the paladin, and is much more squishy than a fighter. I guess it might be said to replace the slayer and maybe the rogue? Though rogues have their own odd tricks these days as do monks. I can live with a quality replacement to one class which never got a lot of traction anyway.
What exactly does the barbarian have that the vigilante doesnt?
+2 or 3 higher to hit? It isn't a significant amount of damage, the combination of access to weapon specialization and lethal grace is higher damage than rage.
It isn't skill use, or out of combat utility, the vigilante has more skill points and actual class abilities with out of combat utility. Saves because of superstition, sure, but its not like having 2 strong saves and 1 weak one is particularly bad.
It’s a little quieter, with considered, measured discussion around a system we love and aren’t giving up on yet. Sure - we know that PF1 has its failings. But it’s what we’ve invested so much time, energy and cash into. And I like this community as it is now: a little less noise than before. And I intend to share, borrow and steal from all of you for the indefinite future. Thanks
Plus the longer it goes on the more likely stuff gets re-looked at and community based modifications to the system will begin taking over
6+ int skill modifiers, Every "bonus feat" is actually 2 to 3 combat feats, access to pounce, a +1/2 level to damage choice, higher class based speed boost than anything but monk, bypasses prerequisites all over the place on feat chains.
And to be clear...they don't RELY on precision damage, they have access to weapon specialization(which comes conveniently bundled with weapon focus) and lethal grace. The avenger vigilante on its own is comparable to whatever martial you care to put out there. You're ADDING precision damage, at 12th level to the tune of +27 damage a hit on the surprise round, and +15ish on average when you forgo a single attack in your full attack in order to feint, because they also get two weapon feint improved feint and greater feint with a single selection and bypassing prereqs.
I mean feel free to try it out but you're really not gonna like the way it will utterly marginalize every other full BAB class out there.
Diego Rossi wrote:
Which is fine, much like "passive perception" but not RAW, so not how GM's new to the game and not involved in the online community will run it.
Instagibbing something in the surprise round outside what you're expected to instagib at your CR is just as disruptive to campaigns as a godwizard scry and frying.
Also, thats two vigilante talents and the best possible fighting style for any class with pounce available hardly a massive investment.
Heal skill has enough feats now that you don't really need a specific class to play healer anymore.
Con is a massive defense in the first 5 or 6 levels. Its often the difference between an unlucky crit or high roll dropping you in the fight or not. It does get less relevant later, but builds that ignore the challenges you face GETTING to the levels where they take off tend not to actually reach those levels outside of a discussion or forum.
I'd pay for a 1.5 pass over the rules, a condensation of the feat trees and a reworking of old content to take new content and design philosophies into account. (Like all of the old fighter archetypes removing weapon and/or armor training, with the new archetypes balancing those choices between one or the other and bonus feats/bravery)
I'd like a core book to include a visual combat flowchart and sub charts for maneuvers (grapple in particular). Seems like almost every rpg ive encountered eventually has to flowchart some option put out and itd be nice to just have it included in the core book from the get go.
Or hobgoblin since they went and gave them their own nations and they have an entire edition of being known for working for/with other humanoids, vs how goblins were portrayed all edition long.
But yes, also yet another + cha race as though small = cute. Could have just as easily been dex/int for all that twisted cunning they spent pages writing about.
The big thing about prepared is the ability to leave like 1 spell slot of each level empty after a minute and just hunt the exact story control spell you need inbetween fights
I mean...they took a -cha race and turned it into + cha kender for one.
Here are two brawler guides that each have some specific information on how to pick feats to open up the widest variety of martial flexibility options.
Not gonna be 100% relevant to picking up barroom brawler but does a good job of explaining how to get the most out of the ability.
eh, i find wizard schools more compelling than sorcerer bloodlines 9/10 times
While its not creating a god wizard or anything, with no weird supplements or feat rulings at all, a vigilante who counts as both rolls out of the surprise round with a 50' charge that will 90% of the time instagib whatever the vigilante charges.
Mad rush + d8 sneak attacks + 1/2 level in damage + TWF chain is too much.
Combat Expertise: Prereq int 13. You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for attempting a combat maneuver, gain +2 to all combat maneuvers. (counts as all improved combat maneuver feats currently in game)
Dodge: Prereq dex 13. Gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC, when moving through a threatened area this increases to +5 vs attacks of opportunity provoked from movement. When making an attack roll you may take -1 to hit to gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC until the beginning of your next turn. Every 4 BAB increase the penalty and bonus by 1.
Declutters a massive amount of feat tangle.
Combat maneuvers are a 3 feat chain to the quick maneuver option and a 2 feat investment for any maneuver past the first. Much more reasonable.
Whirlwind attack becomes a 3 feat chain.
I also like the idea of combat feat chains working more like vigilante talents, where you pick one and get 2-3 options staggered by level.
Combat maneuvers are for sure in need of a massive condensing. I kind of wonder if more feats wouldn't benefit from the Equipment trick/Weapon trick/magic trick style of rebalancing, where you take the feat and then as you fulfill more requirements you get different benefits from it.
I'm about half done reworking all the weird skill related feats in a similar way and folding them into Signature Skill.
There are, but honestly "I move action gather power standard action composite blast 5' step still trumps a badly built fighter rogue or monk.
Channeling is indeed very efficient and a (literal) godsend at low levels, but then there are wands. And replacing that Channeling with an ability that prevents you from taking the damage in the first place obviates the need to channel to heal the damage.
Frankly i find the addition of wands to the cheap consumable marketplace to be one of the worst aspects of pathfinder.
edit: more on topic. Any archetype in the advanced players guide, ultimate magic, or ultimate combat should get a polishing pass. Vigilante could use more options as could void and wood elements of the kineticist.
I prefer my tier lists to include a floor as well as a ceiling. It tells a better story of where that class fits in the grand scheme of things
Like low tier for kineticist is probably "c or d rank" just because its hard to be an F for a class if you can do more damage than a lightly optimized fireball or lightning bolt every turn.
It can be good, but at the same time in my experience going back to old systems can highlight why you left the system in the first place.
Like nostalgically? I love a tightly controlled for power level rifts game. LOVE it...in theory. By about hour 2 of the math involved in filling out your skills in a palladium system and i remember why i dont play it anymore.
I have amazingly fond memories of 2nd edition forgotten realms and birthright in particular as settings. I'm not into going back to racial caps on levels.
Literally any skill choice is going to be either phantom thief rogue or investigator. With knowledge checks you can add bard, with craft and profession you're a human with heart of the fields and the skill focus instead of human bonus feat options.
There aren't many raw int checks, they're usually associated with a skill but AFAIK the only options there are either generic rerolls, one or two spells that add a +1 or 2 and just having a high stat.
Will saves? Dwarf cleric with steelsoul and improved iron will.
Concentration checks are going to involve a ton of surfing through traits, and i think to maximize it you're probably going to end up using the exemplar magic trait to power load magic traits with your feats. Many of those traits are situational but almost all your options will be that way. Bonuses when casting defensively, bonuses that only apply when you're hit while casting, steel falcon has bonuses for casting on a rough moving ship, there are feats for mounts that give bonuses (do reductions i forget which) from casting on horseback while running.
I will offer you a reasonable and easy house rule for perception.
Passive perception: Whatever taking 10 results in for that character is their perception level just existing. They automatically notice anything of a DC underneath their passive perception score.
Active perception: You roll the dice, and actively search a 5foot square as a move action. This is you moving things around, poking and prodding.
Your games will move along much quicker if you set things up like that.
I have a perverse desire to go bolt ace 5/Weapon master fighter 15 ranged crit fishing build with fighter critical feats.
I was never really a fan of bard for the longest time but as of teamwork feats, shared training and dwarven scholar i'm really deep diving the potential. Teamwork feats are effective even when people divert from "standard" builds to add them if the party is cooperative and taking the same ones. I'm thinking a party of 4 standardly built characters with a 5th handing out half a dozen teamwork feats even just for survivability and mobility cranks the party as a whole to 11 without even reaching into rube goldberg style builds and edge case rulings.
The fact that the feats basically hold no synergy with either the fighter archetype or prestige class makes me think they're in existence solely to splash aldori flavor into other martials.
Like the archetypes and prestige class fit together well, and even if its not the best TACTICAL choice, mechanically its a functional if unexceptional dex "tank".
I feel like the feats are intended to be taken by a rogue or something. At least there's incentive to invest in feinting.
Edit: never mind, just read that last sentence that had no reason to exist in there. does not stack with sneak attack.
Just the worst feat series. Just terrible.
The problem with theorycraft is that it doesn't hold up at the table. I've found that x3 and x4 crit weapons can actually be a very strong player on the battlefield. Sure, you don't crit as often (and thus aren't good for crit-fishers) but having a 10% chance of 1-shot an enemy is nothing to sneeze at. Especially against hefty DR and other damage reducers.
Or those times where the encounter is what i like to refer to as "meaty chaff". Beatsticks with high hp and hd maybe 3 or 4 lower than your characters around mid level
I would love to see this build.