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DBZ is a s~&~ setting in a cartoon with the depth appropriate for like...elementary schoolers.

YOU may have accepted casters being DBZ lite...I certainly havent.

Watery Soup wrote:

Yeah, but you don't stop an annoying player by killing his character.

It's like there's a big spider nest somewhere in the house and someone asks how to kill one spider. If your goal is to kill that one spider, a rolled up newspaper will do. If your goal is to not have spiders, you need to get rid of the nest.

It's clear the OP is satisfied with the rolled up newspaper.

You realize the player is out of the campaign til the next one when he dies right? Like he's not coming back til they manage a TPK or complete the campaign.

you get d6 claws every time you rage that eventually go up to 1d8 + 1d6 energy damage

The primary issue is SOME campaigns pvp is a flamethrower. In this campaign, pvp is more of a "what tool is best to swat the spider"

Pvp is allowed, and the players are forced into a cooling off period by the "no rejoining til next campaign" policy. People here are acting like he's trying to build a flamethrower when he's asking them to hand him a rolled up newspaper.

Why not go dragon bloodline bloodrager->dragon disciple?

Its simpler, you still get spells, you get natural attacks and dragon disciple frankly works better with bloodrager than sorc anyway

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And can we stop listing DBZ as something to aspire to? Good lord, people complain about power creep then bring up a cartoon that might as well be titled "power creep, the cartoon"

The idea that mechanical advantage is the only thing that provides great rp opportunities is pretty common in TTRPG's honestly

Its a friggin NPC archetype, of course pc's wouldn't take it. Its solid at what it does which is enhance siege weapons with spells.

shoulda been an alchemist

Why not Both?!

Cavaliers and samurai who want one get their accuracy boost from their order

The INT stat mod for DC is pretty much the nail that keeps it from being on par with save or die from a caster.

Optimization of a grappler isn't really much in the way of optimization in the game though. Its really good...against like 1 or 2 size large or smaller enemies, and not great against swarms of em or things that get really big. Yeah the GM might get a little frustrated once you get your hands on a BBEG..but BBEG are notoriously bad at challenging parties of players anyway simply due to 1 turn vs 3-5 per round.

You're attacking the wrong problems which are basically a dozen or so specific spells, and archetypes and classes which get around casting times for summons

Worship cayden and look up his traits/feats.

As for the other feats, id look at one of the style feats i listed. I like kraken style best but if you're super worried about ac go snapping turtle style

Monk AC is generally pretty low til they get a few levels under their belt. Bear in mind that if you dump, and take the 14 dex, your AC is going to be 15. A fighter in scale and shield is usually around 17-18.

There arent a lot of ways to up a low level monk's ac in a 20 point buy without moving into finesse builds. I suppose you could drop the strength down to base 14, which frees you up enough points to up your dex to 14 and give you a starting AC of 15, but any higher than that is going to start eating into your ability to successfully grapple anything tough.

Edit: If you can get a friendly arcane caster to hit you with mage armor for the first couple levels you should be ok, but it IS going to take some cooperation.

Well i'd do 16 str and 14 wis out the gate, with at least 12's in dex and con, but at that point it depends on if you're into dumping int or cha lower and being exceptionally brutish, or kind of dumb and brutish.

If so, taking one down 2 points lets you push dex or con up to 14 as well, depending on if you want to prioritize tuff or fast. If not i'd toss the spare point in whichever one you like more so that you can raise it to 14 at level 4.

Nosta1300 wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:

Teitori Core Monk.

There are a lot of myths about wrestling Oni, making a skilled wrestler fits the theme.

Plus with some of the grapple feats in the martial arts handbook you can get some cinematic combat descriptions going with tossing people around and slamming them into the ground while you fight.

Ya can you recommend me Feats for a level 9 build?? o.o

Tetori does a good job of putting the build on rails. It changes the monk bonus feats into the ones you'd automatically want anyway.


Savage slam lets you bodyslam or throw around people you've grappled

Overhead flip lets you do the ultimate warrior press slam

Whirling hold lets you do the "grab by the legs and spin in a circle" wrestling move.

Realistically simply by choosing tetori you've done all the real min/maxing you'd need to. You could spend feats on getting tougher, harder to hit or having neat cinematic maneuvers to do once you've grabbed someone. The only non automatic feat in that archetype is one you'd definitely want right at level 9 Rapid Grappler lets you do 3 grapple checks per round and with constrict in tetori, you do damage with all 3.

Here is an OLD tetori monk guide....a lot of other feats have come out since then.

Snapping turtle style is a reflexive grab (I don't think its as necessary with grab being baked into the archetype but YMMV) it also helps with AC a little bit.

Kraken style adds wisdom to your grapple damage as well as allowing you to implement suffocation rules while grappling and damage armor as you take more feats in the style

Grabbing style makes it easier to grapple with one hand, and allows you to grapple more than 1 opponent and move them around easier as you take more feats

Octopus style is less grapple focused but makes fighting multiple opponents a little easier, includes trip support and makes it a little easier to grapple with only 1 hand but less so than grabbing style.

Tetori monks also bake in a lot of counters for things that render the fighting style useless that you wont be able to get as a brawler. Otherwise the brawler is going to want the same feats in the same timeframe as the tetori.

Oni-spawn is a great choice for any monkish wrestler as well +str for grapple +wis for stunning pin DC and alter self for yet more +str. Their tendency toward gluttony in a vice or two should make some excellent roleplaying opportunities as well, be he a drunk or a lech

Teitori Core Monk.

There are a lot of myths about wrestling Oni, making a skilled wrestler fits the theme.

Plus with some of the grapple feats in the martial arts handbook you can get some cinematic combat descriptions going with tossing people around and slamming them into the ground while you fight.

Metamorph Alchemist/Aberrant bloodline bloodrager

Saurian Shaman druid. Summon giant advanced, augmented summoning dinosaurs as a standard action.

Yeah you don't get the spell abilities of some of the higher level things.....but dinosaurs > outsiders on a cool factor

Sibyl wrote:
I understand why you took the heresy inquisition, but it seem like a heavy price to burn your inquisition/domain on skills when there some game changing one to choose (hello travel domain freedom of movement + teleport)

Thematically heresy is kind of an odd one for Sarenrae to begin with given that she has both quasi pacifist redeemers (blooming light) as well as militant near warmongers (the dawnflowers that want to overthrow taldor) in her church

Trickster is kind of a meh mythic path for most 9 level caster classes.

How do you feel about Alchemist?

Make her a mythic bard with perform: Oratory. The dragons are intelligent and can just be NPCs loyal to her, you don't need more mechanics than that.

A barb can EITHER fly OR pounce. You only get to pick from 1 totem and pounce is a totem power.

I acknowledged above that the stance entering was a problem, but it makes up for it in moving from foe to foe throughout the combat.

Azatariel swashbuckler: No TWF
Shifter: Natural attacks dont iterative, twf becomes tricky at best
Vigilante: got me there
Metamorph alchemist: natural attacks dont iterative/bad class choice for twf

Claw pounce: natural attacks dont iterative.

Responding with one good rebuttal and then a bunch of watered down alternatives isn't the rhetorical own you think it is.

blahpers wrote:

If someone posts an Advice thread saying that there's a spider in their living room and asks how to build a flamethrower, is it more rational to suggest better ways to solve their problem or to post links to schematics?

Not even remotely the same situation. When someone posts a question how to efficiently pvp, "dont pvp" isn't a remotely relevant or useful answer.

Fighter cant get pounce unless mounted.

Slayer and ranger cant get pounce unless mounted

Flying, for all the amount you should need in an adventuring day is 16k in boots.

Barbarian is the only martial with access to pounce that doesn't require a rube goldberg machine that includes size considerations. That in and of itself makes it, IN PLAY, superior to other dual wielders.

Ubarb in particular gets the crit multiplier increase 4 levels earlier than fighter, who gets it at capstone, thats basically an entire adventure path. The +6 to confirm EVERY crit combined with the +4 from crit focus (if youre building a crit fisher) > one auto crit on a charge in actual play. +10 to hit on a martial is basically an autoconfirm.

Nah i use theory when people clearly haven't played it.

Barbarians get their crit multiplier boost at level 16, 4 levels and likely an entire module before fighters get weapon mastery which is their capstone.

Ubarb, class abilities only as to hit boosts are a wash, +20 BAB, + 4 from rage +6 from accurate stance.

Fighter +20bab +6/7 from weapon training + gloves of dueling

Slayer +20bab +5 from studied target

How is the fighter or slayer more accurate than the Ubarb while dual wielding again?

"boars charge wrote:
Special: This rage power is available to wereboars, wereboar-kin and those who associate with these creatures.

Hope your gm brings wereboars into the game or you're playing one specific race.

Reckless abandon: dumping AC while youre already at -2 ac from raging is how you get wrecked.

Lot of theory, very little actual play demonstrated in this thread.

Quixote wrote:
I'd say that a good character with an inherently evil bloodline would be much more compelling. Trying to resist the corrupting influence of their birthright as they are tempted by the power it promises. Classic brooding, tortured hero/anti-hero stuff.

I have a LG abyssal bloodrager the gm let me trade the claws ability for a gore. He's a distant great great great great great great descendant of Baphomet and poised to go into the mythic worldwound AP with a vital strike butchers axe build.

They're the only martial that can get pounce in a reasonable fashion without relying on a mount and chain of mounted combat feats.

They have a rage power that provides a massive boost to critfishing later in levels

They have the most accuracy boost of any martial save rangers against a focused favored enemy which benefits two weapon fighting more than it does other fighting styles

Dual wielding barbarians are easily as iconic as big weapon barbarians, and base barbarian does not do as well at it.

So yeah, im "stuck" on two weapon fighting, as it is the highest DPR fighting style once you get access to some form of pounce.

It does perform better.

Its disingenuous to write off how much better it is at dual wielding while holding up archery as some big benefit. Its disingenuous to write off sudden barbarian death syndrome as not a big deal when the reality is its just something experienced players have learned to work around.

Thats just, pixies or sprites.

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blahpers wrote:
I still can't fathom why sha'ir was implemented as an occultist archetype in the first place (as opposed to a full caster archetype).

Honestly seems like itd fit as a shaman archetype limited to the elemental spirits.

Martials aren't simple unless you've got some game experience under your belt already.

And to be frank no one has done much but claim that its less powerful, while using as their examples niche builds that other classes still do better and niche abilities that kind of go counter to the core themes of the class.

Meanwhile ubarb makes the frenzy barb from diablo or fury warrior from wow a feasable choice, as well as classic drizzt (who had barbarian levels), groo the wanderer (barbarian with 2 katana) and other actually thematic characters, while not having them drop dead at the end of a close fight if they cant get healing quickly enough.

Rikkan the Rat wrote:

Thank you! So many options I never considered. Let me try to answer the questions:

@LordKailas Just being the muscle is good enough

@Scott Wilhelm All I know for campaign flavor is Victorian, Gothic Horror.
Between us, He would be manservant, muscle, and do most speaking and social dealings for her, things are strictly professional, no love interest. The lady is smart so she will handle knowledge and won't need his counsel. I'm assuming the lady will have a way to let him know her wishes in social situations (the other player hasn't specified how yet)
As far as tense sitations/combat. It will be up to him to feel out the situation, and step up if need be. I don't see him being the running type (unless she wishes for a retreat of course). Her abilities as a witch are not public knowledge, but I'm assuming during combat she will stay back and assist him.

I'm very open to things with this character, so if I have to change things around, I'm ok with that, I'm not even 100% sure about him being melee, now that I see things like Ant Haul (which I had forgot about), it opens the doors for for non strength options.

I would absolutely go for majordomo investigator or consigliere unchained rogue. Lots of skill points to be VERY good at whatever she needs you to do, not exactly the big bruiser type but competent in combat and able to direct other party members for maximum effectiveness (with teamwork feats). I'd go with the rogue option and take the skill unlock for intimidate, allowing him to threaten people in her name, as well as having some breaking and entering capability if she needs some incriminating evidence disposed of.

Bloodrealm wrote:
Kaouse wrote:

Can you address how huge the loss of Spell Sunder is for this class? Even ignoring rage cycling, the ability to suppress/dispel external magical effects on demand made Barbarians a great class.

It wasn't just something to use on Pounce targets, on the contrary! It actually gave them something viable to do out of combat, and many consider it to be a new niche that not many other martial classes could boast of.

Even if it wasn't quite as amazingly good as it is, it would still be REALLY FRIGGIN' COOL as long as it wasn't downright bad. Additionally, since they're usable outside of combat/against targets other than creatures, both Spell Sunder and Sunder Enchantment can see use even without Improved Sunder (or before you get a chance to grab Improved Sunder).

Has anyone addressed the fact that Core Barbarians can be archers? Because they can, and there's even a nice archetype for it. Not so with UnBarb: when they were redesigning Rage, they happened to forget that bows want Strength to damage, too. Arguing that UnBarb more easily enables an additional type of combat is ignoring the fact that it shuts out another entirely.
I wouldn't mind if they just prevented Rage Cycling (a better way to do that would be to add a "once per minute" clause to problematic Rage Powers rather than locking the fatigue at 1 minute) and swapped out the Con bonus for temporary HP (which is mostly a pretty nice solution), but changing out the Strength bonus was a really bad move.

two weapon fighting is far more barbarian iconic than archery

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Rikkan the Rat wrote:
Like the subject says, I need a little help fitting into the flavor of my next game. Thanks for any advice.

So, what is the flavor of your campaign? You've talked about the role you want to play, a character specifically attuned to one of the other PCs, but what about your campaign world?

Rikkan the Rat wrote:
So I'll be playing a protector/butler kind of character, who is hired to see to a rich noble woman (Played by another player, she's a Witch class, but at start nobody knows). So not only will I need to protect her, I'll also be carrying her gear and doing all the heavy lifting for her (damn rich people), so I can't dump strength. I'll also be the one doing the talking for her (rich nobles don't talk to mere commoners), so charisma will be needed as well. I don't really care if it's a melee, ranged, or caster build, as long as it can hold its own enough to be a protector, and still have decent Diplomacy.

There are a whole lot of ways you could go with a character to fill roles like this. A lot of people said Bard, sure, as a Bard, you can be your Lady's broker, entertainer, and bodyguard.

I guess we need to ask some more questions about how you envision your role.

How do you appear next to your Lady socially? Are you her manservant, her muscle, her lover-cabana boy, her privy counsellor, or her fixer?

What happens when things get tense? She gives you a look that no one else notices, then you take a step forward, and suddenly the room gets darker, and everyone can feel the temperature change when they see your hand resting on the pommel of your sword? Or does she just laugh merrily, and shake hands with the people she was negotiating with, and only one of them will live to see the sunrise: he will wake up with the others' severed heads in his bed.

What happens in combat? Do you grab her and spirit her away? Do you vanish and pick people off one-by-one? Do you interpose yourself between her and danger warding off all harm while...

Lot of really good questions here.

Bulabars are the tinkers of the fey

For full flavor? Majordomo Investigator or Consigliere Urogue

For more bodyguard than manservant Sister in Arms cavalier or High Guardian Fighter

The fact that its not a purely in game problem isn't really relevant. OP asked for help putting an end to this paladin. PVP is ok in this campaign, so all the cringing over pvp is irrelevant. The idea that it might degenerate to a physical altercation is laughable. Most likely at best you get a tantrum, that wont really matter much cause that player will be out of the campaign til the rest of the party dies or gets bored.

We aren't therapists here, qualified to help people patch relationships based on a sliver of one side of the whole story, and if people aren't into that kind of campaign they wouldn't join/remain in it.

Just because a lot of people here aren't into that kind of game (im not particularly. I dont even like when GM's make new characters come in lower than 1 level below other party members after a death) doesn't make the commentary on how horrible it sounds helpful to OP. Clearly they enjoy the game and/or style enough to want to continue playing or they'd have ghosted already.

Slim Jim wrote:
Magda Luckbender wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
It's the main reason to play CHA on a Cavalier. It increases your daily Challenges by X times your CHA, where X is your regular amount of challenges.
Spoken like someone who has played the archetype before, learned how it games out in actual play, then learned how to bolster a vulnerability.

Assuming you can afford a +4 headband by 7th, I have to wonder how often a Chain Challenging cavalier will pull off daisychaining five challenges in an encounter (since the feat requires each successive challenged opponent be within 30' of the one you just dropped). Many (most?) encounters don't even have that many opponents in total.

Opponents being within 30' of each other is relatively common in most APs

Theres an awful lot of not actually giving advice for the question OP asked and a lot of editorializing about the type of game he's in going on in this thread.

FayetteGamer wrote:
Coidzor wrote:

This is a highly skilled gaming group, a bit Gygaxian in play style , but one of the best I've met. I also play with several of them in other groups. The other groups each have their own dynamic, and the players adjust their play style to match. They also can't be flustered by anything(a factor in game sessions being largely enjoyable in spite of what the Paladin's player does)

This campaign is unique in its attrition element to party size, potentially running out of characters before reaching the end of the story.(I understand this type of game isn't for everyone, like playing Smash Bros with one life per character)

I'm a low-strength wizard with a dagger, no Power Attack or other melee feats. I think my max melee damage on a Crit is 8, and the Paladin likely has a +12 on his Fort Save (+4 Con, +3 Cha, +4 Base, +1 from cloak of resistance), meaning he'd only need to roll a 6+ on his Fort Save to survive the Coup-De-Grace. Not good odds for me.

I didn't think spells could be used for for a Coup-De-Grace? That would definitely change the landscape.

"How likely is this to come to blows"
It will probably happen the next time the Paladin thinks it's funny to backhand the Wizard. So I'd say probably within the next 4 sessions.

Next time he backhands you change your alignment from NG to N, given that your character is witnessing a champion of goodness.....actually how has he not fallen resorting to physical violence to impose his will on a fellow good aligned party member?

edit: also, you can ONLY coup de grace on spells that require an attack roll. Those spells have a 20 X2 crit rating

Nyerkh wrote:

What about the other characters? Are you alone in this? What do they think?

Offing a paladin might be tough for you alone, but if your team's backing you, whatever they may be, the game changes.
This sounds like a campaign where PvP is okay, so recruit your party.
One person shanking him in his sleep is one thing (probably enough, but still), three is another matter.

Not only having allies will make it easier, but I'd argue if they disagree, you're just as likely to become the problem. And that's not good for the table.

OP explained this above. 1 with him, 1 with the paladin, 1 indifferent/unknown.

Also no, dont involve other it like i advised, don't give the paladin or his ally an opportunity to respond, or even fight back. As many people said above, this is a player issue and there's no reason to fight even remotely fair or put your character at risk.

Narrowascent wrote:

Wow you guys thanks for all of the ideas. Really appreciate the help and response. Will check it out. The green knight is that an archetype of the Cavalier?

Yeah...really ridiculously survivable

You're level 5, assuming a standardish stat spread, if his con is +4 his cha is probably around +2 or 3.

level 5 paladin +4 base fort, +4 con +3 cha means +11 to fort saves, lets say a misc +1 resistance bonus from a cloak or some trait to bring it to +12

Take a heavy pick. 1d8 X4 crit. Bulls strength yourself min +2 damage assuming you aren't in the negatives for strength, assuming no other modifiers you're doing 4d8+8 on the crit meaning the lowest save is 22 and the highest is in the 40's. You only have an 8% chance of doing less than 20 damage according to's dice roller. At 20 damage his save not to die outright is 30, which means he needs to roll an 18 or higher on the d20 not to die outright.

You get a similar result from coup de gracing him with a shocking grasp.

Be more confident in your ability to kill him in 1 hit from a coup de grace

FayetteGamer wrote:
Cavall wrote:

I will say this. Killing his character will never make (and has never made) a player say "gosh you're right I better ship up. Good point. Hey heres a much better character for me and I'll totally change how I am from now on. Thanks for killing me in my sleep."

And since goal will never happen, I don't see a reason to help you achieve that goal.

This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).

Does that affect anyone's opinions?

It solidifies mine, don't f*$$ around, murk him in his sleep and let the player sit out and think about why he got murked in his sleep.

I often wonder if people railing about the downgrade have actually played a ubarb for any length of time or if its standard napkin math.

My experience with a pouncing TWF ubarb indicates its mostly napkin math.

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