General Discussion: Kineticist

[AlanDG2]

Rerednaw wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

I'm sorry but there will always be a creature you are not equipped to handle...

If I'm reading this right the Occult with Evocation Implement can do acid, cold, electricity, fire Energy Ray as a RTA on the fly. Same damage scaling as the Kineticist (with the exception it doesn't include that 1/2 con mod) That will most likely cover the encounters when your one element is not usable. :)

Well, not quite. Yes the Occultist can do it, but only by expending focus. So there is a limit to how often they can do this each day.

[Insain Dragoon]

Shiroi wrote:

I'm sorry but there will always be a creature you are not equipped to handle. You know what a fire kineticist's best answer to a fire elemental is? Dust of dryness charged up in a lake. Best answer to a demon immune to fire? Kill it's friends while your pally takes him. Best answer to a red dragon? Distract it. I do agree you should have some talents or a natural ability giving you elemental resistance appropriate to your class. Possibly a second choice for each elements defensive ability could be the resistance based one, so expanded element x would let you use expanded defense x as well. Also solves the problem of not liking your normal ability. *glares at searing flesh*

So while I see a great range of strength increases this class could use, the ability to burn fire with more fire is simply not a valid option for me. Want to kill fire creatures? Expanded element water. Want to legitimately use only fire, always fire, and never ever ever anything but fire? I like it. It's awesome. You can't kill red. Deal with it. That's the price you pay for being amazing at burning down cities and forests.

And what would that Bard Archer not be equiped to handle?

DR? Clustered Shots
SR? He buffs the party few spella to interact with enemy
Enemy Buffs? He can Dispel and thats based on CL, not CHA.
Melee? He goes invis and runs, or hides behind front line
Enemy Ranged? Invis, Tiny Hut, Mirror Images.

Bard Archer can contribute in all situations for Combat. Can contribute in most skill challenges. What you've stated doesn't actually apply to most classes in the game, why should it for Kineticists?

Also said Bard Archer has more consistent damage and buffs the party.

[Shiroi]

Kineticist uses a single shot to deal damage, unless you go melee. That's the same thing as clustered shots, DR only applies once. SR, not all blasts apply it and Pure Flame Infusion gives an option for fire elementalists. Your options for melee is to NOT BE IN MELEE. You really think that's any different from what I just said? Ranged, I shoot the archer or use that kinetic wall talent to provide cover. If I'm clever as a player, which is FAR more important than being clever as a character builder, I'll make a wall of flame for 20% blur miss chance from the heat waves, manipulate water to drag a lake between us, TK the enemy bow to make them drop it then fling it at their neighbors, and any number of other things involving using my (player) brain to use my (characters) mind to move things.

[Insain Dragoon]

So how does that change that the Kineticist does less damage, has less options in combat, less options out of combat, and simply gets screwed by enemies that have decent spells lists, AC, or Energy Resistance.

If you're clever as you say you are then you'll be able take advantage of a Bard moreso than the Kineticist.

[AlanDG2]

You can be in Melee, there are good Melee options for this class involving the Kinetic Weapon and Kinetic Fist. I think it may be better than your Archer in that...

[Insain Dragoon]

The thing is, does that make a big enough difference? Also it seems odd that a Kineticist is required to fight in melee in order to be useful.

[Azten]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Sammy T wrote:

Quick question:

Does Arcane Strike work with Kinetic Blast?

I'm hitting L3 with my geokineticist and pondering between WF: Blast, Arcane Strike, and toughness.

It works if you qualify (the psychic spell-like abilities of the kineticist class do not qualify you).

Why? Every other SLA does.

Sorry if that's been asked. I'm still reading what I've missed.

[Insain Dragoon]

Power source is psychic not arcane. Arcane Strike requires an arcane CL.

[Rerednaw]

AlanDG2 wrote:

Rerednaw wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

I'm sorry but there will always be a creature you are not equipped to handle...

If I'm reading this right the Occult with Evocation Implement can do acid, cold, electricity, fire Energy Ray as a RTA on the fly. Same damage scaling as the Kineticist (with the exception it doesn't include that 1/2 con mod) That will most likely cover the encounters when your one element is not usable. :)

Well, not quite. Yes the Occultist can do it, but only by expending focus. So there is a limit to how often they can do this each day.

Correct...on the other hand, maybe he decides to have a frost or flaming or shocking bow at level 1 all day long, or a familiar, or enchanted armor...I'm finding the occultist is a bit more front-loaded than the kineticist AND can still act as one at least for the early levels.

While it does cost focus...7 or 8 times a day, any energy type...compared to how many times per day that the kineticist can do this (zero) and something else? Not to mention it is an int-based class with a lot more skill points. Limited uses, but more options, versus unlimited use of limited options seems to be one of the defining attributes of the kineticist class.

Well I've got more playtesting to do. I'm still enjoying the kineticist.

[Melkiador]

It feels like we are missing important feats, because the current feats don't seem to mesh well with the class. There should be a feat to ignore a couple of points of burn once per day. A feat to ignore or defend during AoO the class is sure to generate. A feat to replace precise shot, as point blank shot is balanced around multiple small attacks in a single round and doesn't work well with the class

[Insain Dragoon]

In the Hunter Playtest SKR released some Teamwork Feats to go with the doc.

[Ryzoken]

Burning Infusion: I apologize in advance if this has been brought up or if it's something I just missed, but I did not see any mention of how one puts oneself out. They get the initial reflex save against ignition, and they then burn until they put themselves out... but what type of action is that, does it require a roll, does it provoke AoO's? Our group ad lib'd it with the rules from Alchemist Fire, but it would be good to have a couple lines about how one puts oneself out.

General impressions: I played a pyrokineticist 1 (could ya tell?) in a PFS scenario and had quite a bit of fun with it. Not having Precise Shot made things incredibly difficult, as I was looking at a -8 to -12 to hit due to cover and melee penalties. I basically only hit things when I had a clear line, on a strong roll. Had I been using a non touch attack, I would have been utterly useless. My character was built with 16 dex, no point blank shot.

The scenario included a stationary mass-of-hp type encounter, which let my character shine as we sat back and I just repeatedly sunk Burning Infusion Pyroblasts into it round after round until it burned away. Without the infinite supply of firepower the Kineticist class provided, this would have actually been challenging, but being able to sit at 30' and plug away rendered the threat moot. I suspect this was an edge case, as it is exceedingly rare one encounters a foe one can reliably 'kite' let alone a stationary one.

Random Musings: I suspect a more melee oriented type of character with the Kinetic Blade talent would be a more functional level 1 character. This is particularly true if Weapon Finesse works in conjunction with Kinetic Blade, which I suspect it should. Does it? A character built with 18 Dex and Con (under 20 point buy, racial included), with Weapon Finesse and a KT Blade looks more effective on paper than the ranged character I put together (Go figure, Precise Shot matters.)

[Artanthos]

Does a character under the effect of Elemental Body (Kinetic Form) have hands (able to gather energy)?

[HectorVivis]

Reading this class a little, I really expect a shadow element!

Light could be a good one too.

[Maester Jun Ixnar]

OK, here's my 2 copper.

1) The melee options for kineticists are somewhat lacking in two departments: Two-handed weapons and two weapon fighting. Kinetic Blade specifically describes the created weapon as a one-handed or light weapon, and it does not explicitly give the caster the option for two-weapon fighting.

I understand that Kinetic Blade does give you increased damage over a two-handed weapon at the same level, so the bonuses a melee-focused character of the same level would gain from feat selection - Power Attack, Cleave, Vital Strike, etc. - do not even apply to a melee-focused kineticist. While this frees up feat slots and makes dipping a level or two into fighter/ranger/whatever somewhat useless, it also makes melee-focused pyros or terras very bland and uninteresting.

On top of all of that, the focus on ranged combat along with taking the Strength modifier out of the equation for melee attacks make the kineticist rely 100% on a high Dexterity to help improve their DPR, especially with non-touch attack blasts. Selecting Weapon Finesse early in said character's career becomes essential; without it, a kineticist is severely restricted on which elements and wild talents they can select to remain effective in combat.

The final item I noticed was the lack of sustained melee weapon usage. In order to utilize attacks of opportunity, a kineticist must be level 6, have the Kinetic Whip wild talent, and commit to using it and accepting at least 1 burn a round (or build up energy and restrict yourself to 1 normal attack a round.) Once the kineticist hits 8th level, it does become possible to do this every round at no cost and get iterative attacks, but such a build requires a very specific set of class feature choices.

To correct these issues, I suggest the following:
a) Give kineticists Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat early in the level progression. This would work well as a feature for a melee-focused kineticist archetype.
b) Add the ability to create a pair of weapons with Kinetic Blade or a new wild talent that performs the same function. Perhaps the weapons should do reduced damage to balance the additional attacks...
c) Allow a kineticist to take a feat or feat chain that improves the melee wild talents - start with 1 optional burn = ability ends at the beginning of your next turn, ramp up to ending at the beginning of your next turn without any burn expenditure.
d) Add a feat for Kinetic Blade users that allows the character's Kinetic Blade to take on the crit range/multiplier of a single chosen weapon. The kineticist must be proficient in this weapon, of course.

2) The damage types for the basic blasts are not consistent, and that bothers me. Put simply, an aerokineticist with air blast is going to have a bad time every combat against a monster with DR /slashing or piercing. A telekineticist at the same level has no problem with half of the DR types out there; an appropriately built terrakinetic has even more versatility in that respect.

In addition, I noticed that kineticists have no way to bypass alignment-based DR (yet?) or use positive/negative energy.

The solutions here involve a little more work:
a) Modify all of the basic blasts so they can deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage like telekinetic blast at the user's choosing. Or make it an optional "accept 1 burn" modification. (Not the energy-based blasts; they're fine in this regard.)
b) Alignment substance infusions! Holy water, hellfire, chaotic lightning, fiery law... oh, the possibilities!
c) Positive and negative energy kinetic energy types. Negative energy/entropy blasts deal normal damage to living opponents and objects but only half damage to undead. Positive energy blasts deal full damage to undead and only half to living creatures.

Thoughts?

[Shiroi]

In response to insain dragoon, honestly I'm not saying this class in any iteration is ready to go. But there is far more in and out of combat usefulness than many are giving credit for, simply because you shouldn't need a spell that says "do this and this happens" to make it work with what you have. If every clever thing done in a campaign is written out in the rules then we've forgot the roleplay experience. This class could do with some better to hit options, maybe up the damage dice to d10 and drop the anonymous +1, or add substance infusions for damage increases instead of just conditions, and yes, 4+ skills would be nice. A lot of this can also be done with some feats that actally mesh with the class instead of the generic stuff I'm equipping my theory builds with. But regardless, you stated that in melee your bard dissappears and hides in a corner. My statement that a pure Pyro will encounter problems when faced with fire immune creatures stands, every class has a weakness. Without it, we are no longer playing Pathfinder, welcome to 4.0.

[Morzadian]

Heladriell wrote:

In regard to power balance, I've already made comparisons with the Ranger and the summoner, but it hit me that there is a class that is made with the same chassis and fills a similar thematic niche: The Druid.

The Druid is supposed to be a master of the natural world, able to channel it's elements in impressive effects. He's able to call on several nature servants, powerful companions, and his knowledge of the natural world and it's denizens in unparalleled. Also, hes able to change his form to obtain whatever mobility he needs, as well as becoming a ferocious beast or discreet scout.

So:
Chassis: HD: d8, BaB: 3/4, Skills: 4/level with 13 skills to chose from.
Offense: Animal Companion (Reliable Melee or Ranged damage), Battle forms, great selection of offensive spells (limited resource), summoning, reasonable weapon proficiencies (scimitar).
Defense: Medium armor and shields, animal companion (double HP pool), good healing, great defensive spells, immunity/resistance (circumstantial, but good), defensive forms.
Utility: Good skills with bonus, Orisons (create water saves lives), wild empathy, good utility spells, thousand faces, an infinity of useful forms.

At endgame a druid can literally cast earthshaking spells and cataclysmic effects that can raze whole city. A decent animal companion joined with a ranged build druid can unleash a hell of a damage without spending resources. You can't find a druid that doesn't want to be found.

The kineticist is supposed to have a greater mastery of an element and of his body than the druid IMO. Let's give it some power upgrades, utility and a physical way of fighting.

Both the Druid and the Bard make for a comparable chassis for the Kineticist.

Except that two factors are missing from the equation.

The Druid is a resource based character (uses spells) while the Kineticist has at-will spell-like abilities. That's why I think Mark in a previous post made comparisons with the Fighter (archer).

And the bard is a support character (group buffs), quite different to the Kineticist who is a glory hound. "Feel the burn" you don't get any more glory seeking than that.

[Insain Dragoon]

Dunno how a turn to reposition is hiding in a corner. Melee isn't a weeakness because the Bard should only be forced into melee if we're looking at a TPK scenario.

Either way the whole point of feedback is to move the class in a direction that is appropriate power level and fits with the Authors vision. I don't think Mark's vision is a d8 hit die reach skirmish fighter that has little out of combat utility and trouble hitting anything.

The point of that Bard build was to show where Kineticists stand in performance compared to one of the most balanced classes in the game. That it currently loses in DPR, skill challenges, and non-skill utility is a problem.

Mark said he doesn't want it to out DPR an optimized Fighter Archer. It's unlikely the Kineticist would be able to outskill or have more utility than a Bard. In order for the class to make sense we need.
DPR
Fighter Archer>Kineticist>Bard Archer
Utility
Bard>Kineticist>Fighter
Skills
Bard>Kineticist>Fighter

It's worth noting that DR isn't too big a problem for the Archers and the biggest obstacle is actually wind walls. The Bard can Dispel such defenses making it most able create oppurtunities to shine. The Bard doing more DPR than any level 11 ranged Kineticist build we've seen so far is a problem.

Kineticists can't strip energy resistances, DR, or SR. This is coupled with low accuracy and is the Crux of the issue for low Kineticist DPR.

Utility
More Wild Talents. Certain Wild Talents should be free, like the one for fine control within 5 ft or the movement types. Also cool ideas like "Flame Scrying" have strong utility, fit with Occult Adventures themes, and are just plain awesome.

Skills
aside from more skill points I think a skill bonus based on initial element or even on known element may be cool. If not then even a skill decided by Mark would be nice. Inquisitors get Sense Motive and Intimidate +1/2 level. Bards get 1/2 to knowledges. Rangers 1/2 to tracking. Those kind of bususes can make Kineticists a "go to guy" for certain skills.

Stuff like Sight based Perception for Air, acrobatics for Water, sound based perception for Geo, ect.

[Anguish]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Mergy wrote:

Can Weapon Focus be taken with Kinetic Blast?

Weapon Focus should be yes.

Actually, this is an interesting question (which may have been discussed with more clarify further on in the thread).

Traditionally you'd consider Weapon Focus (ray) to be what would apply to a ranged touch spell-like ability, but the simple blasts aren't actually rays. As such, I'd think you actually need to take Weapon Focus (name-of-simple-blast), so a kineticist with multiple simple blasts would need multiple instance of Weapon Focus.

But I could be wrong...

[Insain Dragoon]

Or maybe it's just weapon focus Kinetic Blast?

Also Weapon Focus is a sad feat tax. It shouldn't be required to make Kineticists have a semblance of accuracy.

[kestral287]

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Or maybe it's just weapon focus Kinetic Blast?

Also Weapon Focus is a sad feat tax. It shouldn't be required to make Kineticists have a semblance of accuracy.

Weapon Focus is a feat tax for a large, and growing, number of classes.

[Charlie Bell]

Playtest report: Thornkeep, level 1 sylph kineticist, air element, electric blast.

Kineticist plays a lot like an alchemist, if the alchemist didn't have:
more skill points
area of effect damage
fast bombs
mutagen
extracts

This class needs a major boost. Full BAB would be in order as a start. It needs a wild talent equivalent of fast bombs. I wouldn't charge burn to use anything except for composite blasts. With those changes, it would probably be about on par with existing classes.

Aside from the telekinetic utility abilities, that basically all consist of variations on "move stuff," the kineticist has little non-combat/utility potential. That being the case, it should be a primary damage dealer comparable to an archer or gunslinger.

As it is right now, it doesn't even come close to an archer bard after mid-levels (7th), either in damage or utility.

EDIT: Kineticist also needs Precise Shot as a bonus feat at 1st level, or not later than 2nd level at the outside.

[Shiroi]

Throwing out there the Aetheric Boost composite blast, I'd guess 1D4+1 force damage per dice of other damage would be a reasonable bonus for this. It also opens a non-DR, non-SR option for all elemental choices. Being an average of 3.5 damage every two levels, it's not a huge amount, but force is always slightly behind. Naturally any increase in general damage should be improved here proportionally, so that this adds less than a normal composite blast but being force damage will make it a near guarantee of doing a given amount.

Also @ dragoon, liking the direction you want things to go, I'm on the same page here, my comment was simply that if you go full element when other options are presented you shouldn't be surprised when something is resistant to your only damage type. I reiterate what I said early, lots of room for improvement, but to paraphrase you, a purely fire kineticist shouldn't be forced to fight a fire immune creature unless it's a TPK situation. Everyone has something they don't do well.

[Mike Bramnik]

Just throwing this out there, but I think it would help the class in combat if Blasts could be used multiple times in a round when under the effects of Haste or Blessing of Fervor (at the very least), and/or when the kineticist has a BAB high enough to qualify for iterative attacks (Level 8, off the top of my head?)

I decided not to re-state any of my other questions that have gone unremarked on... I'm also thinking about not continuing to playtest with the level 7 I built after yesterday's horrendous performance.

[Insain Dragoon]

kestral287 wrote:

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Or maybe it's just weapon focus Kinetic Blast?

Also Weapon Focus is a sad feat tax. It shouldn't be required to make Kineticists have a semblance of accuracy.

Weapon Focus is a feat tax for a large, and growing, number of classes.

Which ones?

Inquisitor, Ninja, Barbarian, Ranger, Slayer, Bard, Magus, Hunter, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Cavalier, Alchemist, Investigator, Skald, and Bloodrager don't need weapon focus to offset low accuracy.

Fighters need it because of Greater weapon Specialization.

Rogues.... Yeah.

Can't think of any other class that actually needs weapon focus because of such low accuracy.

[Melkiador]

I really don't think the class needs a good BAB. It doesn't even usually use iterative attacks, so a high BAB is almost wasted on this class. Being that it's using spell like abilities to do almost everything it should really be closer to a caster than an archer.

[Anguish]

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Or maybe it's just weapon focus Kinetic Blast?

Also Weapon Focus is a sad feat tax. It shouldn't be required to make Kineticists have a semblance of accuracy.

Derp. Should have paged up back onto the first page one last time before posting that. I started reading there, but when specing out something naughty for my friday Runelords group to contend with, well, two hours of optimization later and I thought I had the terminology down.

Thank you.

So far I have something rigged up that's showing me... fire is suboptimal no matter what I do (ranged, not melee). This guy's going to open up with fire and dish out 29 fire damage, average (after empowering) and light victims on fire for 3.5 average a round. Then he's going to grow a clue and use the other blast he picked up that - while it's less likely to hit - deals 40 bludgeoning damage, average (after empowering). If he wants to apply Deadly Aim, it becomes 48 average. So... yeah. 9 kineticist levels strapped on something naughty.

[Insain Dragoon]

@Shiroi
Can a Bard encounter an enemy that's fully immune to arrows? Well yes when they have fickle Winds. The Bard can dispel that though.

A pure Pyrokinetic cannot dispel Fire Immunity or Resistance.

A Bard is in melee because the enemy already killed the front line and all that's left is Bard Archer and the other back liners.

A Pyrokinetic is fighting a fire Immune creature because of random chance or an emeny casting an energy shield spell.

A Bard who can't shoot arrows has strong and meaningful choices to make while a Pyrokineticist sits on his thumbs.

[Insain Dragoon]

A player should not be punished for character concepts, especially not a concept as iconic and prevalent as "Fire Lord" or "Ice Mage."

[Lemmy]

Melkiador wrote:

I really don't think the class needs a good BAB. It doesn't even usually use iterative attacks, so a high BAB is almost wasted on this class. Being that it's using spell like abilities to do almost everything it should really be closer to a caster than an archer.

It currently has to burn hp to have the same accuracy as a Rogue. Without Burn, it has the accuracy of a Rogue with no magic (or even masterwork) weapons.

See now why it needs full BAB?

Burn doesn't work very well... It's flavorful, but not a very good, mechanics-wise. Use Metakinesis twice a day and you lose half your HP. Don't use Burn and you lost access to many of your class features. -.-'

Other than having some nice tricks (like at-will Fly), the current Kineticist is basically a much weaker version of the Alchemist.

It's similar to the Ninja, not in theme or mechanics, but in the sense that it can do some cool stuff (like become invisible at will) but is still quite underpowered.

[Insain Dragoon]

Simple fixes to accuracy include, but are not limited to

-Full BAB
-Let them use weapons to get enhancement bonuses
-Class bonus to accuracy
-Make all blasts touch attacks
-Instead of attack rolls make them save based (could have its own problems)
-Pseudo full BAB. Have blasts scale off character level not BAB.
-Up damage enough to make low accuracy balance out.

[Dragon78]

I would love to make the blast supernatural instead of spell-like then you wouldn't need to make concentration checks and no SR for the touch attacks. Or at least get an ability that allows you to ignore SR vs a creature type.

[kestral287]

Insain Dragoon wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Or maybe it's just weapon focus Kinetic Blast?

Also Weapon Focus is a sad feat tax. It shouldn't be required to make Kineticists have a semblance of accuracy.

Weapon Focus is a feat tax for a large, and growing, number of classes.

Which ones?

Inquisitor, Ninja, Barbarian, Ranger, Slayer, Bard, Magus, Hunter, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Cavalier, Alchemist, Investigator, Skald, and Bloodrager don't need weapon focus to offset low accuracy.

Fighters need it because of Greater weapon Specialization.

Rogues.... Yeah.

Can't think of any other class that actually needs weapon focus because of such low accuracy.

The vast majority of Magi are Dex-based, which requires Weapon Focus unless you want to ignore Precise Strike (and the Magus really likes the extra accuracy, even with as many options as they have for that). The same is true of the Swashbuckler (and Daring Champion Cavalier). The Warpriest needs it if he wants to switch-hit effectively; he gets it once for free but if you want to have your Sacred Weapon apply to a greatsword and a composite bow... that's an extra feat. I'm not sure why Fighters needing it because of GWS makes it less of a feat tax, isn't "I need X feat that isn't great because it gets me to Y" the definition of a feat tax?

I could see a good few of those classes go for the Dex-to-Damage line too. Some may prefer Dervish Dance, but for a class like the Investigator, where you get Rapier as a proficiency but not Scimitar, Fencing Grace becomes the superior choice. That said that's not a feat tax for every Investigator so I wouldn't count that.

*Shrug* A smaller list than I'd thought once I got to looking, though a preponderance of the classes I enjoy playing, so "large" might have been an overstatement. But the Kineticist is far from the first.

[Melkiador]

Needing better to hit is not the same as needing more BAB. High BAB comes with extras that the class doesn't need. Higher hit die, iterative attacks, extra weapon profs. All these come with full hit die and the class doesn't need them.

[kestral287]

Melkiador wrote:

Needing better to hit is not the same as needing more BAB. BAB come with extras that the class doesn't need. Higher hit die, iterative attacks, martial weapon profs. All these come with full hit die and the class doesn't need them.

Eh. Extra hit dice would be /extremely/ welcome for a class that inflicts damage on itself as a matter of course. Martial proficiencies don't actually have to be tied into BAB; look at the Brawler. Iteratives are a minor gain for the Kineticist as-is, because they can only use them in melee regardless (unless they get a Fast Bomb equivalent at least).

*Shrug* I don't think the class is going to die without full BAB, but it would certainly do a lot to solve their issues.

[Melkiador]

Burn is based around a d8 hit die. Raise the die and they'd just raise the burn costs.

Better than higher BAB would be to tweak the extra to hit bonuses. And give some feats that actually work with the class's mechanics instead of trying to shoe horn the archer feats to work.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Is it just me or am I missing a method for the pyrokineticist to set something on fire and burn without further input.

[alternis sol]

Insain Dragoon while i agree that this class needs full BAB or the equivalent of as well as a damage increase,
I would like to point out at least one thing that a lvl 10 and beyond kineticist has do that a lvl 10 and beyond bard archer doesn't, that is a 480 ft. quasi teleport to get into the black liners mess them up and then get out. on a interesting note a kineticist with a bag of holding IV can get his entire party pretty much anywhere that they can see in a matter of rounds.

while I agree that the bard archer probably has better damage then a kineticist on average I would like to say that a kineticist has a better nova damage. i will also agree that a bard archer is without a doubt and nearly without exception a better out of combat role player and in combat buffer.

[Insain Dragoon]

@Alternis
That is one heck of a funny mental image! Imagining a Kineticist yelling "yeeeeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhh" as he flies his group around the world. :)

[alternis sol]

Melkiador wrote:

Burn is based around a d8 hit die. Raise the die and they'd just raise the burn costs.

no burn damage is based of your lvl, also the difference between a character at lvl 20 with a d10 hit die or d8 is 21 hitpoints that is not a large difference when your hitpoint are ~430 anyway, this means that giving us a larger hit die doesn't really change tho overall balance of burn after all at that lvl being able to take one more burn isn't going to really make or break the class. at lower levels one/two hitpoint probably isn't going to save you most of the time.

and how exactly do hit die and BAB control our weapon proficiency after all there is no universal law stating that a full BAB class has to have a good weapon proficiency list it just wouldn't have made sense till now

@ Insain Dragoon I have to agree

[TheRamza]

Melkiador wrote:

Burn is based around a d8 hit die. Raise the die and they'd just raise the burn costs.

I would argue burn is poorly balanced around d8 hit die or else there wouldn't be a huge amount complaints based on burn being too expensive to use. I think the class could have a d12 hit die and still not have enough hit points to nova without going into 15 minute adventure days constantly.

Sure some tricks are cool to have at no cost with unlimited duration but most of them are poorly balanced for the level they come available. Take light touch for example, it's a level 0 spell for a wild talent. That ability should just be part of the Telekinetic's default kit. In fact every kit should have some small default ability to manipulate their element other then blasts if only for RP value.

Spark of life requires level 10 to summon at the level of a level 7/8 witch/wizard/sorcerer/cleric/oracle/summoner. Considering the move action control or burn usage limit why can't this be at the same level? This one is probably one of the best examples because it really does have a built in limitation like other classes have. It's even more limiting even as you can only summon 1 elemental per action and only elementals.

[Melkiador]

In addition to feats, the class needs some equipment. Something comparable to an amulet of mighty fists maybe?

[Insain Dragoon]

A minor problem is that Kineticist is how it benefits less from a lot of buffs.

Good Hope, Haste, Heroism, ect all have small bonuses to damage. For full attackers the multiple attacks make the buffs do more. For a Kineticist making a single attack these buffs do less.

Additionally I still don't like that Kineticists are more effective at their damage role by using Kinetic Whip than by using other Infusiins.

[Insain Dragoon]

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Ok, so someone mentioned an "Amulet of Mighty Blasting" and I must put an IMMEDIATE objection to the concept of that.

Anything that effects attacks by adding an enhancement bonus like a weapon should be treated like a weapon, not as a wondrous item that eats up a wondrous item slot.

Gauntlets makes sense, some ability to siphon enhancement bonuses from a weapon make sense, a *item* you hold in your hand to channel your power makes sense, but taking up the very important neck slot is a terrible idea. The Amulet of Mighty Fists was a huge mistake and it should not be repeated with the Kineticist.

Needs to be stated again.

Also I would prefer they just be able to use a regular weapon and drain its enhancement bonus. That way they aren't hoping for very specific loot drops from the DM.

[Shiroi]

Moving towards Geokineticist (yes, I like that name better), I am noticing that I feel very few choices for early and late game Talents, but so many necescary mid level (6-10) talents that I'm actually stuck with a talent I don't want at low levels, but now have to decide at 16 whether to take the high level ability I want and let my last two talents be lower level stuff I should long since have gotten, or put off the Greater Kinetic Form for lvl 20 just to feel like I got my money's worth out of my final talent and didn't step backwards in power gain.
I'm setting him up as a fist fighter, letting the extra attacks from two weapon fighting and improved unarmed attacks give me a shot at more damage than the normal 3 max you see with whips and blades. I'll probably sink some feats into AoO as well, with combat reflexes and so on. This may let me break the typical damage cap quite badly with this class, since metal/magnet infusion means for 2 burn a round I can make a 6d6 addition to my melee attacks, maximize it all, and add +4 attack to boot. This is all so far not including attacks of opportunity and if I get up to greater two weapon fighting I can see a decent chance at 6 attacks and 2 counters a round. Maximized is as much as 288 extra damage if every attack hits, assuming errata doesn't inform me that metakinetics don't play with kinetic fist. Even if it doesn't, a +4 to hit with EBIV's strength increase and 6d6 extra per hit is still a nasty melee brawler. On top of it all, it adds the damage to my normal melee attack... which improved unarmed says I can make non lethal at will. This may be the reason we got a 3/4 instead of full BAB. I will post back when I'm done building and selecting feats, if he comes out half as good as I think it may up the DPR we currently see from this class.

[Melkiador]

The class as written has to keep its hands free so that limits the options. I suppose a ring would be fun though. Be a green lantern

Magic items can be commissioned unless you're playing a low magic work in which case the other classes shouldn't be getting many magic weapons and armor either.

[Goblinsaurus]

If you want to fix it, that's simple to do. Fix up the abilities like Move Earth to scale with level, for example change it to 1 5ft cube base +1 more per five levels.

Up the HD to d10 and give it full BaB. Burn cost stays the same because it's already a big limiter, and it'll do it's job well to prevent people from being able to just go full supernova every round all day.

4+Int skills because there is absolutely zero reason that any character in the game should have 2+Int unless it's an Int focused class. Playing something that has zero skills isn't interesting or enjoyable, and you can't even give the argument of "Rogues need their niche!" because Ninja, Bard, Inquistor, and Slayer all exist.

Make it so Telekinesis has actual Composite blasts in line with the other blasts.

Give a Wild Talent that has a prereq of 10th level or more that lets you ignore 1/2 Kineticist Level in Energy Resistance, so that you can make an elemental blaster and not be entirely useless. Have a second Wild Talent with the other as a prereq that lets you either treat Immunity to an element as 1/2 damage, or treat it as Resist 30 or similar. You lose effectiveness against the enemies, but you aren't ENTIRELY useless.

Change Extra Wild Talent to work like every other Extra X feat, and let you select any that is normally available to you.

Allow Blasts to count as weapons for the purpose of feats, and keep it as a SLA but retool it to use Attack actions, with Kinetic Whip/Blade/Fist still being required to use Full Attacks with them. In addition, the Attack Action of it lets Vital Strike finally have a use.

Vital Strike being usable lets the feat finally have a remotely viable build that will use it and not fall behind drastically, and even WITH using Vital Strike with full blast damage, you'll still not beat out other optimized damage dealers in either to-hit or damage.

Give an item an ability to enchant your kinetic blasts, like the Kinetic Bracers proposed earlier in the class.

Guranteed, there are going to be people that will cry that none of this needs to get done. Remember the last class that got an ability like this, the Warlock? Remember how it was generally considered to be terrible, until Eldritch Glaive came about and unlocked the ability to do full attacks, and there were always the tricks with Hellfire Blast to up your damage? Those existed because it was NEEDED to do so in order to keep your character even remotely competitive. If the blast DOESN'T recieve buffs in the line of something like what I've said, the class isn't going to be able to really do terribly much. It'll be the class equivalent of the 1d6+1/2 level Sorc/Wizard powers which nobody picks up almost ever, because they're worthless.

The class has GREAT flavor and a ton of people love it. The design is already actually fairly good. But please, PLEASE don't just play it hyper safe and not fix up the problems with it. The things outlines in this post, and MANY others on the boards, are legitimate issues with the class that it's going to need to get fixed in order to actually be seriously playable. It doesn't get spells, it doesn't get infinite damage loops, it doesn't get more utility than other classes. Even with these changes, it's at best on par with other classes in terms of damage, and it gets to keep it's utility and fun aspects without being useless.

[Rynjin]

Being able to use Vital Strike with this sort of attack even has some rules precedence in the Bestiray. There's a creature (the Jabberwock, I believe) that has a Su eye laser thing it Vital Strikes with.

[Goblinsaurus]

Rynjin wrote:

Being able to use Vital Strike with this sort of attack even has some rules precedence in the Bestiray. There's a creature (the Jabberwock, I believe) that has a Su eye laser thing it Vital Strikes with.

It's a Su ability, but I'm unsure whether you can actually Vital Strike with it.

Also, there's a relevant part in the Spell-Like Ability description.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

If Kinetic Blast had, as it would benefit greatly from and effectively needs in order to put it on par with other classes in terms of damage, a part of it's decription that said "This ability functions as a Spell-Like ability, but activating it is an Attack Action unless otherwise noted in it's decription(Kinetic Whip/Blade/Fist)." then it would fix up a lot of the issue.

[Artanthos]

I've managed to get the to-hit bonus on my aerokineticist up to +19 at 10th level, +20 with point blank. This is with a starting DEX of 16; a min-max build would be looking at a +22 to-hit bonus at the same level. This is accurate enough to reliably hit with physical attacks and should hit touch AC on a 2+ for most encounters.

In the process, I pushed her AC high enough to survive as a front-line melee character. I would feel comfortable playing with her as her build currently stands. She may not be "The Best," but I feel I could hold my own.

The big worry I still have is, no utility.