General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Pressurized Blast and Pushing Infusion distinction is pointless. Just make it single infusion and describe it as pushing through the pressure or sheer mass. Additionally it could have a bonus to Bull Rush and a maximum distance pushed scaling with amount of burn accepted.

I think that combat maneuvers made with kinetic blasts should use kineticist level in place of base attack bonus.

Shadow Lodge

hmm ok i am having a problem understanding the burn thing a bit, say my guy has 15 con, then does that mean at lv 1 he can take 18 points of burn if he has the health for it? or what, cuase im lost lol


I think having fighter level skill points is very hurtful roleplay wise, especially because int will be a dump stat or never go above a 10 for kineticist. I would prefer 6 imo, it lets you do a lot more

Also, should the base range be increased? I notice there is a wild talent that increases the range availabled at level 1, from 30 to 120. It seems like that will be a tax for every single kineticist? It seems kind of lame to have that be a tax, instead, why not make it base 120 feet, and have something more exciting (the snaking one is pretty cool)?


Non-blast wild talents at last!

Air Cushion: I think that instead of being under constant effect of feather fall it should allow using it at will - small difference and yet important when you lose your consciousness or when you want fall faster than 60 feet per round. Also, I would add an option of accepting burn to affect nearby creatures objects.

Paizo Employee Designer

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CWheezy wrote:

I think having fighter level skill points is very hurtful roleplay wise, especially because int will be a dump stat or never go above a 10 for kineticist. I would prefer 6 imo, it lets you do a lot more

Also, should the base range be increased? I notice there is a wild talent that increases the range availabled at level 1, from 30 to 120. It seems like that will be a tax for every single kineticist? It seems kind of lame to have that be a tax, instead, why not make it base 120 feet, and have something more exciting (the snaking one is pretty cool)?

Why dump Int? With Dex and Con as your two focus stats for the class, a kineticist may very well be at an all-time low for point buy pressure. :)

Shadow Lodge

If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Mark Seifter wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:

I'm confused by the burn entry for wild talents. The burn ability says "Some of her wild talents offer her the option to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect", but all of the wild talents I've read so far list a burn amount, but don't describe a greater effect if you accept burn.

Is it intended that you have to accept burn to use the wild talent at all, and the description of the wild talent is the greater effect? Or is burn supposed to enhance the wild talent, similar to augmenting a mythic spell?

Consider the defense talents like flesh of stone.

I see where burn comes into play for blast and defense wild talents, but what about the rest?

For example, what does it mean that the explosion infusion wild talent has a burn of 4? Every time the kineticist uses it?


You would need 14 int just to make up for low skill points.

I also agree the range of the blast should start at 30 but increase based on level.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Disk Elemental wrote:
If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?

Of that list, only Deadly Aim would work.

Paizo Employee Designer

JoelF847 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:

I'm confused by the burn entry for wild talents. The burn ability says "Some of her wild talents offer her the option to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect", but all of the wild talents I've read so far list a burn amount, but don't describe a greater effect if you accept burn.

Is it intended that you have to accept burn to use the wild talent at all, and the description of the wild talent is the greater effect? Or is burn supposed to enhance the wild talent, similar to augmenting a mythic spell?

Consider the defense talents like flesh of stone.

I see where burn comes into play for blast and defense wild talents, but what about the rest?

For example, what does it mean that the explosion infusion wild talent has a burn of 4? Every time the kineticist uses it?

Yes, it's part of the cost of the blast. Of course by then, you could have enough form specializations to make it free.


Disk Elemental wrote:
If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?

As a spell-like ability they require standard action to activate instead of attack/full attack actions (kinetic weapon/fist/whip excepted) and thus cannot benefit from Rapid Shot or haste. They should bee able to benefit from Deadly Aim. They shouldn't be able to be used with Snap Shot because you don't wield them outside of your turn - you can't make a standard action to activate spell-like ability in place of attack of opportunity.


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Self Telekinesis name isn't intuitive... I would name them Telekinetic Leap and Telekinetic Flight.


Foe Throw
Cool

The Exchange

Mark Seifter wrote:
After all, it's all Greek to me!

Ba dum tish!!


Drejk wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?
As a spell-like ability they require standard action to activate instead of attack/full attack actions (kinetic weapon/fist/whip excepted) and thus cannot benefit from Rapid Shot or haste. They should bee able to benefit from Deadly Aim. They shouldn't be able to be used with Snap Shot because you don't wield them outside of your turn - you can't make a standard action to activate spell-like ability in place of attack of opportunity.

I don't think Deadly Aim will work, since blasts are ranged touch attacks.

Deadly Aim wrote:
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

I think having fighter level skill points is very hurtful roleplay wise, especially because int will be a dump stat or never go above a 10 for kineticist. I would prefer 6 imo, it lets you do a lot more

Also, should the base range be increased? I notice there is a wild talent that increases the range availabled at level 1, from 30 to 120. It seems like that will be a tax for every single kineticist? It seems kind of lame to have that be a tax, instead, why not make it base 120 feet, and have something more exciting (the snaking one is pretty cool)?

Why dump Int? With Dex and Con as your two focus stats for the class, a kineticist may very well be at an all-time low for point buy pressure. :)

What if they also want Wisdom for Will saves, which is a weak save? Or Strength so that they can carry stuff and use the Blade Wild Talent? Or a bit of charisma so they can UMD, talk to people, or handle animals?

Mechanically the difference between 2 and 4 skill points is that at 4 skill points you don't feel like a gimp without buying intelligence. In fact having 2 skill points per level just encourages dumping int so you only get 1 skill point. It also encourages people to stick to humans.

A parallel to your argument is that Barbarians need only STR and CON at an all time low for point buy pressure, yet they have 4 skill points per level. Gunslingers just need DEX and WIS and have 4 skill points. Druids just need WIS and CON and have 4 skill points.

Paizo Employee Designer

Insain Dragoon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

I think having fighter level skill points is very hurtful roleplay wise, especially because int will be a dump stat or never go above a 10 for kineticist. I would prefer 6 imo, it lets you do a lot more

Also, should the base range be increased? I notice there is a wild talent that increases the range availabled at level 1, from 30 to 120. It seems like that will be a tax for every single kineticist? It seems kind of lame to have that be a tax, instead, why not make it base 120 feet, and have something more exciting (the snaking one is pretty cool)?

Why dump Int? With Dex and Con as your two focus stats for the class, a kineticist may very well be at an all-time low for point buy pressure. :)

What if they also want Wisdom for Will saves, which is a weak save? Or Strength so that they can carry stuff and use the Blade Wild Talent? Or a bit of charisma so they can UMD, talk to people, or handle animals?

Mechanically the difference between 2 and 4 skill points is that at 4 skill points you don't feel like a gimp without buying intelligence. In fact having 2 skill points per level just encourages dumping int so you only get 1 skill point. It also encourages people to stick to humans.

A parallel to your argument is that Barbarians need only STR and CON at an all time low for point buy pressure, yet they have 4 skill points per level. Gunslingers just need DEX and WIS and have 4 skill points. Druids just need WIS and CON and have 4 skill points.

Barbarians and druids still need Dex, and Gunslingers need Con. Thanks for your feedback though. We will of course look into it!


BTW: Kineticist is more or less something that I thought about when I lobbied for a non-vancian psychic powers...

Contributor

Drejk wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?
As a spell-like ability they require standard action to activate instead of attack/full attack actions (kinetic weapon/fist/whip excepted) and thus cannot benefit from Rapid Shot or haste. They should bee able to benefit from Deadly Aim. They shouldn't be able to be used with Snap Shot because you don't wield them outside of your turn - you can't make a standard action to activate spell-like ability in place of attack of opportunity.

They don't require a standard action to activate. They are intended to be made as part of an attack action or full attack action.

That said, Mark, elemental blast does not mention this, as I mentioned earlier. This is what the elemental blast ability states, and nowhere does it talk about how you actually use the attack:

Elemental Blast wrote:


Kinetic Blast (Sp): At 1st level, a kineticist chooses one of her element’s simple blast wild talents. The kineticist can unleash her kinetic blast at a range of 30 feet at will. A kinetic blast requires at least one hand free to aim the blast. All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.

By using wild talents called infusions, a kineticist can alter her kinetic blast to suit her whims. Substance infusions alter a kinetic blast’s inner nature to cause an additional effect, while form infusions change the outer nature of the blast, causing it to manifest in a completely different way. You can use any of the blast wild talents you know in conjunction with no more than one associated form infusion and no more than one associated substance infusion at a time.

Most of the blasts state that you use them as "a ranged attack," but that doesn't state anything like, "Hey, you attack with these blasts using the attack action and full attack action, as if you were making an attack with a bow."

That is the type of terminology that you need. Clear. Concise. Void of any misinterpretation.


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Dom Laminus wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?
As a spell-like ability they require standard action to activate instead of attack/full attack actions (kinetic weapon/fist/whip excepted) and thus cannot benefit from Rapid Shot or haste. They should bee able to benefit from Deadly Aim. They shouldn't be able to be used with Snap Shot because you don't wield them outside of your turn - you can't make a standard action to activate spell-like ability in place of attack of opportunity.

I don't think Deadly Aim will work, since blasts are ranged touch attacks.

Deadly Aim wrote:
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Only some blasts are specified as touch. Check out the blasts available for Air.


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I have to agree. We really need to abolish 2 + Int Skill Points. It's really hindering for doing things outside of combat. 4 + Int should be the minimum.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

3 things.

1. Do objects crafted of special materials count as those special materials for the purpose of overcoming DR or hardness? It seems appropriate considering that an adamantine chair is still adamantine and would be harder than the wooden wall I'm flinging it at or that those silver manacles that harm lycanthropes just wearing them would still overcome their DR. Also the fact that I'm literally flinging what is somewhere between 5-500 gp of material depending on the item (assuming price of just 1 lb of raw material at minimum)

2. Does the telekinetic blast ability have a minimum weight limit on what is thrown? Like can it be used to chuck something as small as a paint chip or a human hair with deadly force even at 1st?

3. Is the pyrokineticist's fire blast ability supposed to 1d6+ 1/2 Con or something closer to the 1d6+1+Con of most of the other options?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Insain Dragoon wrote:


What if they also want Wisdom for Will saves, which is a weak save? Or Strength so that they can carry stuff and use the Blade Wild Talent? Or a bit of charisma so they can UMD, talk to people, or handle animals?

Mechanically the difference between 2 and 4 skill points is that at 4 skill points you don't feel like a gimp without buying intelligence. In fact having 2 skill points per level just encourages dumping int so you only get 1 skill point. It also encourages people to stick to humans.

A parallel to your argument is that Barbarians need only STR and CON at an all time low for point buy pressure, yet they have 4 skill points per level. Gunslingers just need DEX and WIS and have 4 skill points. Druids just need WIS and CON and have 4 skill points.

Add me to the "they should have 4+INT skills" bandwagon. I don't think any class that is this focused in its chassis should be so limited when it comes to basic roleplaying tools like skill points.

Other than that I like a lot of what I'm seeing here.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Alexander Augunas wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?
As a spell-like ability they require standard action to activate instead of attack/full attack actions (kinetic weapon/fist/whip excepted) and thus cannot benefit from Rapid Shot or haste. They should bee able to benefit from Deadly Aim. They shouldn't be able to be used with Snap Shot because you don't wield them outside of your turn - you can't make a standard action to activate spell-like ability in place of attack of opportunity.

They don't require a standard action to activate. They are intended to be made as part of an attack action or full attack action.

No, they are standard actions, except the ones he excepted. Irori above, this class would be busted if you could shoot out four explosions a round before metakinesis by trading in iteratives with haste!


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Dom Laminus wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?
As a spell-like ability they require standard action to activate instead of attack/full attack actions (kinetic weapon/fist/whip excepted) and thus cannot benefit from Rapid Shot or haste. They should bee able to benefit from Deadly Aim. They shouldn't be able to be used with Snap Shot because you don't wield them outside of your turn - you can't make a standard action to activate spell-like ability in place of attack of opportunity.

I don't think Deadly Aim will work, since blasts are ranged touch attacks.

Deadly Aim wrote:
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Only some blasts are specified as touch. Check out the blasts available for Air.

Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't noticed that only some were touch


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Mark Seifter wrote:

Why dump Int? With Dex and Con as your two focus stats for the class, a kineticist may very well be at an all-time low for point buy pressure. :)

Uhm, no? You have a bad will save, which is REALLY bad in pathfinder (Mostly save or dies or save or be useless). You need a decent wisdom for sure. Most likely you will see int at 10, or just dumped if you are a human.

Also, maximizing con seems pretty important? Dex is like, ok, but I think you only need enough for PBS and precise shot.

Also druids and barbarians need dex like a wizard needs dex, which is not at all. Some is nice to have, but 12 is really all you need.


Hello all,
I’ve been having quite a bit of fun experimenting with the kineticist, looking at cool stuff. It’s a pseudo charisma caster and a super interesting way to have a class.
I had a few notes of things I was uncertain of :

1) “Kintetic Healer”: can this talent be used with the “burn” ability to concentrate as a move action to reduce cost by 1 burn? If so, this seems to allow infinite healing out of combat (even in combat), since the concentration allows you to reduce the burn to 0.
2) Spell penetration: the kineticist qualifies for spell penetration, though I want to be certain it can be used in conjuction with blasts.
3) Do feats like weapon focus function on “kinetic blast”? Or on specific blasts? Or at all? What happens to a kinetic blast on the roll of a 20? Does improved critical function on kinetic blasts? (I am currently assuming damage does NOT double on a crit, but I believe this needs to be stated if so).
4) What action does it take to activate skills like kinetic blade & kinetic whip? The description suggests that one is able to full attack after using it, AND it only lasts one turn, so I’m assuming swift (or less) but I want to be sure.
5) Something for the future, but there are VERY few substance infusion, making infusion specialization (substance) very unnatractive.

In any case, I’ll probably have more questions later, but this is all for now. A friend is running a level-14 module where 2 of us want to play a kineticist in a week, so we should have some high level feedback soon.

Liberty's Edge

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This class takes a whole lot of things I loved from the 3.5 warlock and, if anything, improves on them.

I really like the burn mechanic as it is. You can use it to do huge amounts of damage with certain infusions or add debilitating effects, but you might just overdo things and literally burn yourself out.

4+INT skills would be the biggest thing I would look to change personally though I am yet to go into it in depth.

Overall, great job.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

I think having fighter level skill points is very hurtful roleplay wise, especially because int will be a dump stat or never go above a 10 for kineticist. I would prefer 6 imo, it lets you do a lot more

Also, should the base range be increased? I notice there is a wild talent that increases the range availabled at level 1, from 30 to 120. It seems like that will be a tax for every single kineticist? It seems kind of lame to have that be a tax, instead, why not make it base 120 feet, and have something more exciting (the snaking one is pretty cool)?

Why dump Int? With Dex and Con as your two focus stats for the class, a kineticist may very well be at an all-time low for point buy pressure. :)

What if they also want Wisdom for Will saves, which is a weak save? Or Strength so that they can carry stuff and use the Blade Wild Talent? Or a bit of charisma so they can UMD, talk to people, or handle animals?

Mechanically the difference between 2 and 4 skill points is that at 4 skill points you don't feel like a gimp without buying intelligence. In fact having 2 skill points per level just encourages dumping int so you only get 1 skill point. It also encourages people to stick to humans.

A parallel to your argument is that Barbarians need only STR and CON at an all time low for point buy pressure, yet they have 4 skill points per level. Gunslingers just need DEX and WIS and have 4 skill points. Druids just need WIS and CON and have 4 skill points.

Barbarians and druids still need Dex, and Gunslingers need Con. Thanks for your feedback though. We will of course look into it!

Technically Barbarians don't need Dex since AC is kind of low for them, unless they go beast totem.

Druids also technically don't need Dex since Big wildshapes nuke their dex and small wildhapes boost their dex a ton. Not to mention if they aren't abusing wildshape they don't need piles of AC or Reflex.

Gunslingers only need con if they're being hit or being forced to make Fort saves. For years we've seen lots of low con archers, so a low con Gunslinger doesn't break the mold. Then again every class wants Con, which makes this statement kind of off since we're talking about forcing a reliance on Int for a reason I am not aware of.


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Aether Boost and Force Blast composite blasts seems rather weak when compared with other composite blasts - for the same burn of 2 points they offer much less (+1 point of damage per die for the former while other composite blasts for the same price give extra die per die of the kinetic blast damage...).

In fact I think that Force Blast should be second option for telekineticist basic blast - maybe with damage die lowered to 1d4 to comensate for lack of force resistance when comparing to other simple blasts that are energy ranged touch attacks.

EDIT: Or it could be the composite blast for Telekineticist with expanded aether, but with burn cost of 0.

Paizo Employee Designer

williamoak wrote:

Hello all,

I’ve been having quite a bit of fun experimenting with the kineticist, looking at cool stuff. It’s a pseudo charisma caster and a super interesting way to have a class.
I had a few notes of things I was uncertain of :

1) “Kintetic Healer”: can this talent be used with the “burn” ability to concentrate as a move

Please see the first post.


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Also, what is the flavor explanation for 2 plus int skill points for the kineticist?

The fighter has 2 skill points because you only need two points per level to be a master tactician and a general for the army

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
williamoak wrote:

Hello all,

I’ve been having quite a bit of fun experimenting with the kineticist, looking at cool stuff. It’s a pseudo charisma caster and a super interesting way to have a class.
I had a few notes of things I was uncertain of :

1) “Kintetic Healer”: can this talent be used with the “burn” ability to concentrate as a move action to reduce cost by 1 burn? If so, this seems to allow infinite healing out of combat (even in combat), since the concentration allows you to reduce the burn to 0.

In any case, I’ll probably have more questions later, but this is all for now. A friend is running a level-14 module where 2 of us want to play a kineticist in a week, so we should have some high level feedback soon.

I can at least answer this one. Bulhman posted an edit to the burn ability that the decrease ability is only supposed to work on a limited scope of abilities (I believe just the blast ones). It is the 1st post here, check it out and see what it says.

Liberty's Edge

Is there any thought on rolling a crit with these blasts?

Paizo Employee Designer

JamZilla wrote:
Is there any thought on rolling a crit with these blasts?

They crit on a 20 for x2, as normal. Assuming you're rolling to hit, anyway, so not the AoEs that have saves instead.

Liberty's Edge

So an alchemist bomb crits on a 20 x2 also but that specifically says the damage gained every second level beyond first is additional damage that is not multiplied.

In this case, is all damage x2?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Quick question, I may be missing it but is it possible for a Aether Kineticist to be able to wield the Air Cushion and the Wings Of Air wild talents from the Air Kineticist? If so how?

Paizo Employee Designer

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JamZilla wrote:

So an alchemist bomb crits on a 20 x2 also but that specifically says the damage gained every second level beyond first is additional damage that is not multiplied.

In this case, is all damage x2?

Everything. Behold the power of the kineticist!

Liberty's Edge

That.. is... awesome.

Having said that a 9th level will be doing something like 5d6+5+6 damage (before burn) once a round, which isn't a huge amount of damage in comparison to, say, a full attacking two hander fighter.

I know that's comparing apples and oranges but without playing one yet I'm trying to see where these guys fit on the power curve.

Scarab Sages

Back on the topic of burn for a moment, perhaps I'm missing something.

Let's say we have a hypothetical level 10 kineticist with 16 CON, and 83 hp. This character can take a maximum of 8 burn without falling over. However, taking even a few burn drastically reduces its effective maximum hit points.

Let's say there is hard encounter one morning, and the kineticist is forced to use 4 points of burn. The rest of the day they are running about with an effective max hit points of 43. That seems a bit rough.

Proposed alternative:
What if the burn is uncurable, but the nonlethal damage can be cured normally. The catch is that each time the kineticist takes burn, they take an amount of nonlethal damage equal to their level * their new burn total.

In this case, our kineticist from the earlier example will have 4 burn and full health after the first encounter (assuming he heals afterwards). In the next encounter, if he spends even 1 burn he'll take 50 points of nonlethal damage. This also gets into an interesting case where you could actually start wrapping nonlethal damage (assuming you're on good terms with your cleric). If you managed to take a total of 18 points of burn in a day, the next use will outright kill you (of course you've been KOing yourself quite a bit beforehand).

Disclaimer:
Obviously I've not played, or even properly built a kineticist yet, so perhaps the mechanic works fine, it's just a little unclear if the design intent is to actually use burn, or if it's there as a really last ditch, all-in sort of ability. So many uses of burn seemed to imply that it would see fairly regular daily use.


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I agree no class should ever have less then 4+int mod.

I like the idea of self telekinesis as telekinetic flight. I would also like a telekinetic leap ability that considers all jumps are running jumps and adds highest mental score(or half your kineticist level) to jump checks.

Is the force blast ability a touch attack because if it isn't then it should to be.

Also why are you only getting half your con mod to damage?

I like the idea of force blast being an automatic option for telekinetics and 1d4 damage.


Can you vital strike with a kineticist?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Raisse wrote:

Back on the topic of burn for a moment, perhaps I'm missing something.

Let's say we have a hypothetical level 10 kineticist with 16 CON, and 83 hp. This character can take a maximum of 8 burn without falling over. However, taking even a few burn drastically reduces its effective maximum hit points.

Let's say there is hard encounter one morning, and the kineticist is forced to use 4 points of burn. The rest of the day they are running about with an effective max hit points of 43. That seems a bit rough.

Proposed alternative:
What if the burn is uncurable, but the nonlethal damage can be cured normally. The catch is that each time the kineticist takes burn, they take an amount of nonlethal damage equal to their level * their new burn total.

In this case, our kineticist from the earlier example will have 4 burn and full health after the first encounter (assuming he heals afterwards). In the next encounter, if he spends even 1 burn he'll take 50 points of nonlethal damage. This also gets into an interesting case where you could actually start wrapping nonlethal damage (assuming you're on good terms with your cleric). If you managed to take a total of 18 points of burn in a day, the next use will outright kill you (of course you've been KOing yourself quite a bit beforehand).

Disclaimer:
Obviously I've not played, or even properly built a kineticist yet, so perhaps the mechanic works fine, it's just a little unclear if the design intent is to actually use burn, or if it's there as a really last ditch, all-in sort of ability. So many uses of burn seemed to imply that it would see fairly regular daily use.

I am expecting that you will only lightly touch your burn for a few points for things like buffing your kinetic defense or a really clutch extension until you hit a very challenging fight. That said, if our hydrokineticist Eram is any indication, I am expecting a level 10 kineticist, even a Dex-focused one (like Eram) will probably have more than 16 Con and 83 hit points.

Liberty's Edge

It seems like a huge design change to veer away from burn now but I think a pool of points similar to a magus with which to augment would probably have been simpler and less debilitating for the character.

The move action reduction in burn will help so I will report back having actually played the mechanic, this is all based on first impressions for me.

Paizo Employee Designer

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JamZilla wrote:

It seems like a huge design change to veer away from burn now but I think a pool of points similar to a magus with which to augment would probably have been simpler and less debilitating for the character.

The move action reduction in burn will help so I will report back having actually played the mechanic, this is all based on first impressions for me.

Yeah, give it a whirl and let me know. I'm really interested in hearing what you find out! Remember that, as a starting point, using Con as your casting stat means you have a lot more hit points than the back line usually does before you start burning. I know there have been a lot of times in S&S where our front-line has been pretty low, with Eram whistling in the back with plenty of health to spare in case something got in his face, despite his burn.

The intent is for burn to be pretty meaningful. Like "Oh man, I'm pushing myself. This is going to hurt, but I want it that badly" rather than "Eh, I've got 5 more in my pool. Whatevs, let it burn!" Also, Feel the Burn gives you some incentive to spend at least a little burn. Eram has gotten a lot of leverage out of those to-hit and damage boosts.


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I like the idea of burn but don't like the HP damage mechanic, I would like a point pool like the other classes. But when your point pool reach 0 you are effected with things fatigue, confusion, exhaustion, staggered, sickened, etc..

I would like abilities that shape the blast as a cone, line, burst(centered on you) as a built in ability to the class or at least something you can take at level 1. Also these abilities would still cost burn but wouldn't reduce the damage of your blast.


I had a quick comment about the Aetherkineticist. I like the idea of the force ward defensive power as temporary hit points, as opposed to a force armor effect, such as Mage Armor. Thematically, I like the idea of the shield buckling under assaults. The regeneration effect feels a little awkward to me. Regenerating at a rate of 1 point per minute means that it's only going to be good for one or maybe two CR appropriate hits in an entire fight unless you spend several actions dismissing and re-upping it. It feels it would be a bit unwieldy during play to be doing that, especially compared to the relatively straightforward defensive powers of the other elements, particularly terrakineticist's straight Damage Reduction. Perhaps if it could be 'recharged' with an immediate action rather than dismissed and subsequently reapplied? It's still a weak enough shield to take a hit or two at a cost of full-round actions, with a little less to keep track of.

Paizo Employee Designer

Tirrimor wrote:
I had a quick comment about the Aetherkineticist. I like the idea of the force ward defensive power as temporary hit points, as opposed to a force armor effect, such as Mage Armor. Thematically, I like the idea of the shield buckling under assaults. The regeneration effect feels a little awkward to me. Regenerating at a rate of 1 point per minute means that it's only going to be good for one or maybe two CR appropriate hits in an entire fight unless you spend several actions dismissing and re-upping it. It feels it would be a bit unwieldy during play to be doing that, especially compared to the relatively straightforward defensive powers of the other elements, particularly terrakineticist's straight Damage Reduction. Perhaps if it could be 'recharged' with an immediate action rather than dismissed and subsequently reapplied? It's still a weak enough shield to take a hit or two at a cost of full-round actions, with a little less to keep track of.

Reupping it should not give those hit points back (the immediate action part of all the defenses to turn them on and off was added later, as I initially conceived of them as constant until I got some feedback that they needed to be toggleable, and I didn't realize the implication that people might think they can refresh it that way). Good catch! I will get that as an official clarification in the first post.


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I actually like the idea of burning out. I've always felt a real exhaustion system would have benefited Pathfinder. It's much more cinematic to see casters using physical toughness to channel their magic for extended periods.

When Triss from Witcher does awesome cool stuff with her magic it's all the more special because it knocks her out.

Not only that, but the Burn mechanic lets people do their "thing" all day with no problems, but lets them push for extra "thing" in emergency situations, just like what we see in media.

I prefer a Burn or Burn like mechanic over a set of points. Even if Burn is too harsh in real games I would prefer it never get toned down to the point it's easily ignored.


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Some minor house keeping stuff through the class, just needs some improved clarity. The class as a whole feels amazing, and will finally scratch that itch people have been asking for concerning an "Avatar" style elementalist character.

Add me to the 4+int skills/level. The class feels insanely combat focused and this would help them round out a bit better. Here are some editing/minor concerns about the class + its design (took a while to type so pardon if anything has already been covered:

Kinetic Blast:
- Should it read "chooses to learn one of her elements simple blast..."?
- Also says "all damage .. is treated as magic for DR". Rare Earth metal talent seems to indicate otherwise?
- No action listed, presumably free, to add talents
- Doesn't explicitly say we can use a form AND substance at the same time, wording could be clearer on this?
- Damage scales pretty quickly, surprised after some of the 3.5 Warlock complaints that this has resurfaced in a similar fashion with at-will usage

Wild Talent:
- Should read something like "At 1st level and beyond as indicated on table" to match existing PF products (right now entry only indicates learning at 1st)

Elemental Defense
- It feels complicated and strange that these abilities are able to be used "at will" with an immediate action. Having them be permanent with something like "lose this bonus if you are incapable of taking action or wearing medium or heavier armor bla bla" feels better to me, for the sole reason of bookkeeping... from what I can see the class uses no swift actions so this really inhibits nothing in current usage
- Or simply make activation a free action with limited uses/day (can then add feats/talents increasing that number)

Metakineses
- At 17th level, you actually have a cap of 5 burn/round, with a hard cap of 6 burn/round at 18th. The example of combining Quicken + Twin, using 7 burn, is not achievable unless there are feats/other that increases burn/round cap, or you select one of the 2 at 19th for MetaMaster

Wild Talents (spoilered for length:

- Entangling Infusion has no prereq (should apparently be level 6)

- Extended + Extreme Range feels like a HUGE bump.. they're pretty extreme.. With Airs Reach, having the ability to snipe people from 960ft is pretty ridiculous (by 6th level no less)

- Foe throw sounds super fun (maybe a bit powerful?)

- Kinetic Blade + Kinetic Whip feel like they could make a reeeeeally strong melee character. Ability to use a permanent touch melee weapon (level 5: 3d6+1/2Con) even with requiring SR is pretty huge. I can see some martial characters getting very upset by this!

- Pushing Infusion: not really clear if this requires bull rush?

- Engulfing Winds: lists no action type

- Flame Shield: appears it should read Fire element, currently lists air

- Kinetic Cover: this is just awesome

- Kinetic Form: wow this is crazy strong for a hydrokineticist! Curious though why you take away Earth Glide (2 talents to obtain at 10) and not air Fly speed (2 talents to obtain at 6)? I'm guessing that you don't actually turn into an elemental and lose all your gear, but the wording isn't super clear.

- Kinetic Healer: this is also intensely cool.

- Move Earth: could you theoretically use this to slide an enemy into a chasm if they fail their (high) Ref Save?

- Ride the blast: another favorite!! Feels very "infamous second son" to me.

- Telekinetic Haul: how do we bring this 500-lb statue around with us, now we have an answer!!

- Aetheric Boost: this feels really expensive (2 Burn) for just +1 dmg/2 levels, even at 15 when it can be 3 Burn for +2 dmg/2 levels

This is probably hands-down the class I'm most excited for all of these, and will hopefully playtest one in our WotR game. I'm stuck trying to decide if Aether, Water, or Earth are my favorites. Love it so far and can't wait to see how it progresses + changes.

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