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True, but I think an ability to extinguish other or opposite elements would be a good idea. Quenching fire or eroding earth or drying water would be appropriate. Maybe just a universal Extinguish talent that can be fluffed for any of the elements.I really like that idea. I've seen a large number of games where it's necessary to put out fires quickly and you'd think a hydrokineticist would be able to do such things easily.
Exactly! An Extinguish wild talent could be fluffed as the following:
For Fire:
Fire: innate ability to control fire extinguishes it.
Water: Water quells the flame.
Air: Wind blows the fire out, or alternatively, air leaves the fire to starve it of oxygen.
Earth: Sand and dirt on the flame to put it out.
For Water:
Fire: Heat evaporates the water.
Water: Innate ability to control it dries it up.
Air: Air blows it away?
Earth: Dirt and sand absorb the water or dam it.
For Air:
Fire: A bit tougher to figure out. Maybe create a backdraft that reverses the flow of wind?
Water: Water and ice weight down cyclones to slow wind
Air: Innate ability reverses it.
Earth: Rocks and dirt weigh down cyclones to slow the wind.
For Earth:
Fire: Melts the oncoming rock into specks of lava or glass
Water: Erodes oncoming rock mass
Air: Erodes oncoming rock mass
Earth: Innate ability reverses it.
Extinguishing air powers would be the more difficult sell, but I think this could work well.
First of all, have to say that I love this class, like everyone else. Also adding another voice to the "Geokineticist" and "more skill points" lobbies.
Finally, I think that Telekinetic Haul sounds awesome, but could be tweaked a bit. It seems wrong that a telekineticist who flings a dagger and one who flings a boulder deal the same damage. So what if a Telekineticist with the Telekinetic Haul talent could burn themselves to up the damage of the objects they throws? It feels pretty thematic to me, at least.
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Oh nearly forgot, since this class is usually limited to one attack per round, effects like mirror image can really stop it dead in its tracks.
And could be maybe get some dispel ability?
Dispel doesn't really fit. Since the class uses spell-like abilities it can't be countered itself, so giving it the ability to counterspell would just seem off.
I think counterspelling would be the wrong way to go, but dispelling or disrupting existing magical effects could fit.
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Would it be possible to revise the language of the burn abiltiy, so it works with the mythic recuperation ability? As written a mythic paladin would regain her spells and smites, but burn is not recoverable since requires actual rest.
This quirk would make make Kineticists a much worse choice for mythic adventures.
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Some things the kineticists should be able to do:
Aether:
-Lift an enemy of the ground and hold him there;
-Crush enemy bodies (throat for a force choke) or their internal organs.
-Paralyze someone enveloping him in a telekinetic shell.
-Wield a weapon telekinetically.
-Move some extremely heavy stuff (like a small starship) with great effort (burn like no tomorrow).
-Increase his own physical strength adding kinetic power to move stuff.
Earth:
-Shape stones, lift them into the surface.
-Use rising stone to jump.
-Lift some big boulders from the ground.
-Sense stone and earth composition.
-Create a big hole or cave.
Fire:
-Be able to withstand handling fire without getting burn.
-Raising temperature of objects or living beings.
-Breathing fire.
-Make some entertaining pyrotechnics.
Water:
-Freezing/evaporating/melting water.
-Taking water from living beings.
-Making water from ambient moisture.
-Shaping/creating ice.
Air:
-Create breathing air.
-Increasing a projectile's power.
-Making a thunderclap.
-Suffocate someone.
All:
-Blocking enemy blasts (as an immediate action).
-Feeling the presence of his element.
-Handling his element without damage.
-Throwing multiple small blasts.
-Having an inner reserve of energy (ki, psychic pool, prana, qi, etc...)
-Connecting with the element (like Stone Tell spell).
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Just to make sure I understand Foe Throw correctly:
1) I choose a target. That Target gets a FORT save DC (10 + 4 for Spell Level + CON). If it succeeds, end of attack. Otherwise proceed.
2) I roll to hit.
3) If I hit, both the thrown creature and the target suffer
the full damage of my telekinetic blast and the thrown creature
falls prone in the last unoccupied space along its path. (How far can you throw a creature?)
4) If I miss, the thrown creature can choose to occupy any space
within 30 feet of the intended target, it does not fall prone, and
it suffers half damage from my blast. This movement does not
provoke attacks of opportunity.
(can you ever boost the DC other than boosting CON?)
Just a though. so you can only take a number of burn points a day equal to 3+ con mod. each time you take one point of burn you take level in non lethal damage. now comes the change up, if the burn non lethal damage would heal normal both with magic and without. normal healing would be 1 point of non lethal per level per hour. and any magic healing would heal equal amount of non lethal and lethal damage at the same time.
so without magic healing each point of burn takes one hour to heal naturally. but you can still only have a number of burn points per day = 3+con mod.
now given that some games have it be the 15 minuet adventuring day, if natural healing was available it would not matter, if magical healing is possible it would use up some resources from the party be it a cure spell or a aoe healing some resources is used up.
other games have it be hours between fights,(days does not matter for this) so downtime would matter a bit more, each hour would make it that much easier to fight same goes with magic healing. but the thing is you can still only take an amount of burn = to 3+con mod a day.
bottom line if natural healing and magical healing is allowed for burn damage it does not change how many times a day it can be done.
sorry if it seems all over the place, just trying to put in my thoughts on this as best i can.
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The other issue that we should look at is how one big hit is just not going to cut it at higher levels. Quicken comes too late as far as I can tell, as up to level 13 you are still only getting off one big hit per round. The easy solution I can see is to make the blast an attack that can be used multiple times with haste or as BAB scales, and then weaken the damage of each blast.
I'm not sure it even needs to be weakened. Alchemist Bombs do the same damage, and can be used while TWFing to boot. So essentially you're trading less attacks per round for more sustainable power. I don't think what is essentially "Ranged Sneak Attack damage with no other modifiers and an elemental component" particularly needs to be weakened to be used multiple rounds.
Bow using Rogues with Sniper Goggles have hardly broken the game, after all, and this would be a similar level of damage output.
Another option might be to give the kineticist his choice of which physical stat governs his DCs and max burn total. Something would have to be done to not make Dexterity ungodly powerful, but I would love to see a strength-based kineticist using raw power to command the earth to rise up.A certain muscle-headed wrestler earth-benders came to mind.
Alternatively, "I CAST FIST."
Oh, and a good minor boost to the Kinetcist would be to make all the blasts and whatnot Su instead of most being Sp. What is essentially a non-caster having to worry about SR on much of his main schtick seems off.
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I agree that spell resistance is not really a necessary thing to add.
Mostly I'm in love with this class from the standpoint of wanting to chuck the contents of a dinner party at someone who interrupts dinner. The thing that turns me off is knowing that TK blast is going to miss against anything with a moderate investment in AC. That's why I would like to see Feel the Burn have more of an impact on attack and damage rolls.
If I could get +1 to attacks and damage per point of burn at level 3, and the bonus per point increased by +1 at level 7, 11, and 15, then I could see an accurate hit happening even with a 3/4 BAB, a constitution focus and no enhancement bonuses to my weapons. If people are worried about that making touch attacks impossible to miss with, then lower the boost it gives to the touch blasts or simply weaken their inherent power.
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Just a though. so you can only take a number of burn points a day equal to 3+ con mod. each time you take one point of burn you take level in non lethal damage. now comes the change up, if the burn non lethal damage would heal normal both with magic and without. normal healing would be 1 point of non lethal per level per hour. and any magic healing would heal equal amount of non lethal and lethal damage at the same time.
so without magic healing each point of burn takes one hour to heal naturally. but you can still only have a number of burn points per day = 3+con mod.
now given that some games have it be the 15 minuet adventuring day, if natural healing was available it would not matter, if magical healing is possible it would use up some resources from the party be it a cure spell or a aoe healing some resources is used up.
other games have it be hours between fights,(days does not matter for this) so downtime would matter a bit more, each hour would make it that much easier to fight same goes with magic healing. but the thing is you can still only take an amount of burn = to 3+con mod a day.
bottom line if natural healing and magical healing is allowed for burn damage it does not change how many times a day it can be done.
sorry if it seems all over the place, just trying to put in my thoughts on this as best i can.
That nonlethal damage does not heal until after a full nights rest.
Someone pointed out that most classes with combat as their theme have some way of boosting their attacks rolls, and none of them, except one(Rage) has anything to do with Hit Points.
Weapon Mastery, Rage, Bane/Judgment, Inspire Courage, Challenge, Mutagen, Favored Enemy, Smite Evil, and (some)Spells all give bonuses to attack and damage rolls.
So we can at least give the Kineticist full base attack bonus and iteritves attack blasts, right?
Design Manager
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Having played around with a class mechanic that used temp hp as a resource pool, I'm finding I'm not a big fan of the Burn mechanic as it has all the issues I discovered there, plus some.
For starters, there's the the most basic issue of having to track two separate pools of nonlethal damage; that caused by Burn, and that taken in the normal course of events. That can get annoying at the table, for GM and player both.
Then there's the glass cannon issue. You can take up to 120 points of nonlethal damage using Burn by 20th level, a level at which a character made with average system mastery can probably be reasonably expected to have 258 hit points on average (assuming the iconics represent average system mastery, that'd be probably 26 CON and average die rolls). You can theoretically do that 6 times based on the in-class limit, but in reality you can only afford to do it twice, at which point any attack from a level appropriate challenge takes you out of the game. Even if we boost CON up a bit more that doesn't really change that situation at all. So the class is encouraging you to do things that will wipe your character out.
The scaling is a little weird too, but it looks like a point of burn basically floats between 1/12th and 1/9th of your total hit point resources, so it's probably good enough over character life.
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This character seems to be a striker, pretty high damage, great mobility and very limited personal abilities.
My only worry, is that most classes can benefit from something like versatile weapon and align weapon even if they can't cast it themselves.
This might provide trouble when a character comes to face something like an Inevitable with DR/chaotic and regeneration/chaotic. And they lack surefire way to deal with incorporeal enemies, since they lack force effects and ghost bane weapons aren't an option.
Other than that, I like the class.
Guys, loving the new wild talent ideas. Excellent.
Also, @Deflect Arrows: "Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."
These are generated by spell effects, so they can't be deflected (ranged touch attacks can be deflected with Ray Shield by an 11th-level fighter with a shield who can take that feat, but the ones that hit against normal AC just can't be deflected period).
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I was playing and was also thinking that it would be nice for an ability to allow for nonlethal damage for the blasts. For certain blasts that is not practical but some should be able to.
I like it. It could be, for instance, a tk thing that requires light touch. Once you're in control enough to avoid breaking objects, you can start to think about a softer touch with your attacks.
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things i've noticed while keeping up with this fourum
1. 4+ skill points
2. more skill choices
3. full BAB and higher hit-dice
4. need ways to over come alignment DR
5. some mentioned just making it into a pool like grit or acrane pool
6. lower lv to get a second element
and more stuff i cant rember right now, i love the class and with improvements it will be great, i cant wait to see the final version :D
The burn mechanic is really cool and flavorful and I'd like it to stay, I just... think it needs to be better. A d10, or even a d12 hit die would do a lot to help that.
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Mark, any thoughts on increasing the potency (or even the cap) of Feel the Burn? Right now the bonus to hit only makes up for 3/4 BAB.
Short Version: Please playtest the class and let me know how it goes.
Summary: The kineticist has a system of checks and balances right now to make the options more interesting. Sometimes the weaknesses of a particular style are intended and balanced with the payoff. But what if the payoff isn't enough? What if they need to be tweaked? I'd love to see playtest data to help me figure out how! I'm more likely to want to make something to make your choices awesomer at what they're already good at than to make them stronger at their weaknesses because weaknesses encourage variety. So for instance, in the full AC blasts are too much worse than the touch AC blasts, I'd rather increase their damage even more or give them something else cool than up their accuracy so they have similar chance to hit to the touch attacks.
For subterfuge, how stealthy/subtle would a Kineticist be with his blast? Is it like spells where it's obvious that you are using them? Are they like SLAs where it isn't immediately obvious? Could an Aetherkineticist snipe somebody using marbles in a crowd with none the wiser? Is that why Stealth is one of the few skills on their class skill list?
(So many questions!)
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I think we need a Hellfire Blast.
I think we need a Hellfire Blast.
Combined negative energy + fire?
I think a level 7-10 playtest will be more useful. At level 5 the difference between full BaB and 3/4 BaB hasn't quite yet become apparent (especially with the full BaB character's extras, like a Slayer's Swift action Favored Target).
Should probably be compared to an Alchemist and an Archer Inquisitor and work up from there (if it's comparable in combat power to those two it still needs more versatility, if it's not it just needs a straight up boost to power across the board).
I'll see what I an do on that front. At a glance, it doesn't seem as though it's going to measure up (both have more skills, the Alchemist pumps out more attacks a round, for the same damage per hit as one of the blasts, with extra effects like Nausea tacked on, and the Inquisitor likewise gets more attacks with a likely higher flat damage, plus spells), but I'll try it.
Considering those are the two best balanced classes in the game, I think they're a good metric to aim for on balance.
I think a level 7-10 playtest will be more useful. At level 5 the difference between full BaB and 3/4 BaB hasn't quite yet become apparent (especially with the full BaB character's extras, like a Slayer's Swift action Favored Target).
Should probably be compared to an Alchemist and an Archer Inquisitor and work up from there (if it's comparable in combat power to those two it still needs more versatility, if it's not it just needs a straight up boost to power across the board).
I'll see what I an do on that front. At a glance, it doesn't seem as though it's going to measure up (both have more skills, the Alchemist pumps out more attacks a round, for the same damage per hit as one of the blasts, with extra effects like Nausea tacked on, and the Inquisitor likewise gets more attacks with a likely higher flat damage, plus spells), but I'll try it.
Considering those are the two best balanced classes in the game, I think they're a good metric to aim for on balance.
I would absolutely love to see level 7-10 playtests. But in those playtests especially, if you build the kineticist to not have access to both a touch blast and a full-AC blast, that's a design choice, and you could have chosen otherwise. At level 5 (soon to be 6), Eram is guaranteed to only have one or the other, and he's doing great at 5 (and mathematically will only improve at 6, since he actually just lost a BAB at 5 without gaining a feel the burn and is at his relative weakest) even compared to the melee brawler.
Guys, loving the new wild talent ideas. Excellent.
Also, @Deflect Arrows: "Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."
These are generated by spell effects, so they can't be deflected (ranged touch attacks can be deflected with Ray Shield by an 11th-level fighter with a shield who can take that feat, but the ones that hit against normal AC just can't be deflected period).
Thank you Mr. Seifter for bringing the kineticist to Pathfinder. I won't speak for others but I've been waiting a very long time for an
elemental-based warlocknon-vancian spellcaster. :)Already theorycrafted numerous builds and had about 2 pages of questions. Fortunately reading this thread answered most of them already.
Will be posting actual playtest feedback after the games this week. I'm actually good with what I've seen already.
I do have some general thoughts though:
How are you handling interaction of various elements and the environment?
How much fire does a water blast put out at level X? What about a Empowered one? Does it have any effect at all?
** spoiler omitted **
More later and thanks again sir!
I know there's some kind of fire rules somewhere that address water spells because I've seen them come into play a few times in PFS. If no one else locates them, I will look for them when I have the time (which isn't yet, I'm afraid).
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Mark,
I'm going to be doing a lot of testing with this particular class. Will see if I can get some friends to test others.
Are you more interested in PFS feedback (written for 20 point buy) or Adventure Path feedback (written for 15 point buy)?
Awesome, I can't wait to see it. With enough feedback, we are going to rock this class guys!
I am more interested in any kind of feedback you like. However, if you want a point buy suggestion, I'd say just do 20 point buy, since rolled stats average to 20 and 15 is an artifact of a math error made by the designers of 3.0, so you'll have more fidelity for both 20 point buy and (the average of) campaigns with rolled stats. It shouldn't be an enormous difference either way, since 5 pb is usually just a +1 on something good, but think of it as a way to branch out and have like a non-7 charisma and do something different and cool with each kineticist!
Oh here's my other snippet:General information regarding blasts. I would suggest that the relevant element is simply extracted or created on the spot, i.e. an aether specialist does not need to have unattended objects on the floor, he can hurl a sphere of solid aether when using his blast ability. Said element then decays into valueless debris or sublimates/evaporates, as per the Rare Metal Infusion power.
I personally love the idea of using actual objects, even though it may sometimes be inconvenient. It makes me giggle knowing I can deal 10d6 damage at level 19 with assorted fruits.
I hope to see some play testing too because I won't get a chance to take a crack at it until next week.
Also as cool as the abilities are I'm at a loss as to what to do with it. It looks like a blaster glass cannon but I want to go into melee with it. The burn mechanic makes it look startlingly fragile.
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I personally love the idea of using actual objects, even though it may sometimes be inconvenient. It makes me giggle knowing I can deal 10d6 damage at level 19 with assorted fruits.
Oh here's my other snippet:General information regarding blasts. I would suggest that the relevant element is simply extracted or created on the spot, i.e. an aether specialist does not need to have unattended objects on the floor, he can hurl a sphere of solid aether when using his blast ability. Said element then decays into valueless debris or sublimates/evaporates, as per the Rare Metal Infusion power.
Not the pineapple—NOT THE PINEAPPLE!!!!
Burn is not a physical attack, so DR would not apply to it. Similarly to how a creature with DR 6 is not immune to starvation.
Not the pineapple—NOT THE PINEAPPLE!!!!I personally love the idea of using actual objects, even though it may sometimes be inconvenient. It makes me giggle knowing I can deal 10d6 damage at level 19 with assorted fruits.
Oh here's my other snippet:General information regarding blasts. I would suggest that the relevant element is simply extracted or created on the spot, i.e. an aether specialist does not need to have unattended objects on the floor, he can hurl a sphere of solid aether when using his blast ability. Said element then decays into valueless debris or sublimates/evaporates, as per the Rare Metal Infusion power.
Place me in the more skill points camp. 3/4 bab and d8 hp means at least 4 skill points, unless you are int based. You can't give a 3/4 bab the same skill point disadvantage as a fighter.
hitler already knowsNot the pineapple—NOT THE PINEAPPLE!!!!I personally love the idea of using actual objects, even though it may sometimes be inconvenient. It makes me giggle knowing I can deal 10d6 damage at level 19 with assorted fruits.
Oh here's my other snippet:General information regarding blasts. I would suggest that the relevant element is simply extracted or created on the spot, i.e. an aether specialist does not need to have unattended objects on the floor, he can hurl a sphere of solid aether when using his blast ability. Said element then decays into valueless debris or sublimates/evaporates, as per the Rare Metal Infusion power.
Yes!!! I was thinking the same thing!
Would not want 10d6 like that.|
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Guys, loving the new wild talent ideas. Excellent.
Also, @Deflect Arrows: "Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."
These are generated by spell effects, so they can't be deflected (ranged touch attacks can be deflected with Ray Shield by an 11th-level fighter with a shield who can take that feat, but the ones that hit against normal AC just can't be deflected period).
The mythic monster ability Block Attacks could still neuter a character with only one attack, and of course mirror image would be very efficient.
Have you considered a power (perhaps in aether) that allows a character to split their blast damage among several attacks? Spells like Fiery Shurikencould be be something of a template. After all once your can deal several d6 of damage, splitting them between a number of attacks can be more effective (lower chance of no hits, but DR and Resistances are a factor).
Just from the first glance at the doc, my wife and I really want to roll up water and fire kineticists, respectfully. Composite blasts are our favorite part because we tend to roll characters that work in tandem with each other, so I'm really hoping that they get expanded in the final book :)
Mark, I have a question.
So, would it be possible to see some umbrakinetic based stuff? Like, dealing with drawing upon the shadows and such for a stealthier type of kineticist? I know they have stealth as a class skill, but there aren't really any abilities that play off of stealth besides their (AWESOME) super range capabilities. I think I'm gonna roll up a telekinetic assassin-like character to see how that plays out.
Not that this class needs stealth, per say. It would just be awesome to have a build that plays off of it. Maybe using negative energy?
Guys, loving the new wild talent ideas. Excellent.
Also, @Deflect Arrows: "Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."
These are generated by spell effects, so they can't be deflected (ranged touch attacks can be deflected with Ray Shield by an 11th-level fighter with a shield who can take that feat, but the ones that hit against normal AC just can't be deflected period).
The mythic monster ability Block Attacks could still neuter a character with only one attack, and of course mirror image would be very efficient.
Have you considered a power (perhaps in aether) that allows a character to split their blast damage among several attacks? Spells like Fiery Shurikencould be be something of a template. After all once your can deal several d6 of damage, splitting them between a number of attacks can be more effective (lower chance of no hits, but DR and Resistances are a factor).
From some earlier posts in this thread, I am considering a form infusion like that, yes. It would come at much lower level than aether's crazy-awesome many throw.
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Just from the first glance at the doc, my wife and I really want to roll up water and fire kineticists, respectfully. Composite blasts are our favorite part because we tend to roll characters that work in tandem with each other, so I'm really hoping that they get expanded in the final book :)
This makes me think that there should be a Teamwork Feat for Composite Blasts between two Kineticists. Kind of teaming together to combine their elements for a single more powerful blast.