General Discussion: Kineticist


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Athansor wrote:
Odraude wrote:
True, but I think an ability to extinguish other or opposite elements would be a good idea. Quenching fire or eroding earth or drying water would be appropriate. Maybe just a universal Extinguish talent that can be fluffed for any of the elements.

I really like that idea. I've seen a large number of games where it's necessary to put out fires quickly and you'd think a hydrokineticist would be able to do such things easily.

Exactly! An Extinguish wild talent could be fluffed as the following:

For Fire:

Fire: innate ability to control fire extinguishes it.
Water: Water quells the flame.
Air: Wind blows the fire out, or alternatively, air leaves the fire to starve it of oxygen.
Earth: Sand and dirt on the flame to put it out.

For Water:

Fire: Heat evaporates the water.
Water: Innate ability to control it dries it up.
Air: Air blows it away?
Earth: Dirt and sand absorb the water or dam it.

For Air:

Fire: A bit tougher to figure out. Maybe create a backdraft that reverses the flow of wind?
Water: Water and ice weight down cyclones to slow wind
Air: Innate ability reverses it.
Earth: Rocks and dirt weigh down cyclones to slow the wind.

For Earth:

Fire: Melts the oncoming rock into specks of lava or glass
Water: Erodes oncoming rock mass
Air: Erodes oncoming rock mass
Earth: Innate ability reverses it.

Extinguishing air powers would be the more difficult sell, but I think this could work well.


First of all, have to say that I love this class, like everyone else. Also adding another voice to the "Geokineticist" and "more skill points" lobbies.

Finally, I think that Telekinetic Haul sounds awesome, but could be tweaked a bit. It seems wrong that a telekineticist who flings a dagger and one who flings a boulder deal the same damage. So what if a Telekineticist with the Telekinetic Haul talent could burn themselves to up the damage of the objects they throws? It feels pretty thematic to me, at least.

Silver Crusade

Athansor wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Oh nearly forgot, since this class is usually limited to one attack per round, effects like mirror image can really stop it dead in its tracks.

And could be maybe get some dispel ability?

Dispel doesn't really fit. Since the class uses spell-like abilities it can't be countered itself, so giving it the ability to counterspell would just seem off.

I think counterspelling would be the wrong way to go, but dispelling or disrupting existing magical effects could fit.

Silver Crusade

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Would it be possible to revise the language of the burn abiltiy, so it works with the mythic recuperation ability? As written a mythic paladin would regain her spells and smites, but burn is not recoverable since requires actual rest.
This quirk would make make Kineticists a much worse choice for mythic adventures.

Dark Archive

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I like the modularity of the class design, leaving room for easy expansion to more 'Eastern' elements like wood, metal or spirit/void.


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Some things the kineticists should be able to do:

Aether:
-Lift an enemy of the ground and hold him there;
-Crush enemy bodies (throat for a force choke) or their internal organs.
-Paralyze someone enveloping him in a telekinetic shell.
-Wield a weapon telekinetically.
-Move some extremely heavy stuff (like a small starship) with great effort (burn like no tomorrow).
-Increase his own physical strength adding kinetic power to move stuff.

Earth:
-Shape stones, lift them into the surface.
-Use rising stone to jump.
-Lift some big boulders from the ground.
-Sense stone and earth composition.
-Create a big hole or cave.

Fire:
-Be able to withstand handling fire without getting burn.
-Raising temperature of objects or living beings.
-Breathing fire.
-Make some entertaining pyrotechnics.

Water:
-Freezing/evaporating/melting water.
-Taking water from living beings.
-Making water from ambient moisture.
-Shaping/creating ice.

Air:
-Create breathing air.
-Increasing a projectile's power.
-Making a thunderclap.
-Suffocate someone.

All:
-Blocking enemy blasts (as an immediate action).
-Feeling the presence of his element.
-Handling his element without damage.
-Throwing multiple small blasts.
-Having an inner reserve of energy (ki, psychic pool, prana, qi, etc...)
-Connecting with the element (like Stone Tell spell).

Shadow Lodge

Just to make sure I understand Foe Throw correctly:

1) I choose a target. That Target gets a FORT save DC (10 + 4 for Spell Level + CON). If it succeeds, end of attack. Otherwise proceed.

2) I roll to hit.

3) If I hit, both the thrown creature and the target suffer
the full damage of my telekinetic blast and the thrown creature
falls prone in the last unoccupied space along its path. (How far can you throw a creature?)

4) If I miss, the thrown creature can choose to occupy any space
within 30 feet of the intended target, it does not fall prone, and
it suffers half damage from my blast. This movement does not
provoke attacks of opportunity.

(can you ever boost the DC other than boosting CON?)


Just a though. so you can only take a number of burn points a day equal to 3+ con mod. each time you take one point of burn you take level in non lethal damage. now comes the change up, if the burn non lethal damage would heal normal both with magic and without. normal healing would be 1 point of non lethal per level per hour. and any magic healing would heal equal amount of non lethal and lethal damage at the same time.

so without magic healing each point of burn takes one hour to heal naturally. but you can still only have a number of burn points per day = 3+con mod.

now given that some games have it be the 15 minuet adventuring day, if natural healing was available it would not matter, if magical healing is possible it would use up some resources from the party be it a cure spell or a aoe healing some resources is used up.

other games have it be hours between fights,(days does not matter for this) so downtime would matter a bit more, each hour would make it that much easier to fight same goes with magic healing. but the thing is you can still only take an amount of burn = to 3+con mod a day.

bottom line if natural healing and magical healing is allowed for burn damage it does not change how many times a day it can be done.

sorry if it seems all over the place, just trying to put in my thoughts on this as best i can.

Shadow Lodge

Also i think giving the kineticist more out of combat use of his abilties would be very nice, for example the noncombat aplications of telekinesis. Sor of like a pumped hand of the mage


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Mergy wrote:


The other issue that we should look at is how one big hit is just not going to cut it at higher levels. Quicken comes too late as far as I can tell, as up to level 13 you are still only getting off one big hit per round. The easy solution I can see is to make the blast an attack that can be used multiple times with haste or as BAB scales, and then weaken the damage of each blast.

I'm not sure it even needs to be weakened. Alchemist Bombs do the same damage, and can be used while TWFing to boot. So essentially you're trading less attacks per round for more sustainable power. I don't think what is essentially "Ranged Sneak Attack damage with no other modifiers and an elemental component" particularly needs to be weakened to be used multiple rounds.

Bow using Rogues with Sniper Goggles have hardly broken the game, after all, and this would be a similar level of damage output.

Ravingdork wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Another option might be to give the kineticist his choice of which physical stat governs his DCs and max burn total. Something would have to be done to not make Dexterity ungodly powerful, but I would love to see a strength-based kineticist using raw power to command the earth to rise up.

A certain muscle-headed wrestler earth-benders came to mind.

"The Boulder is over his conflicted feelings, and now he's ready to bury you in a rock-a-lanche!"

Alternatively, "I CAST FIST."

Oh, and a good minor boost to the Kinetcist would be to make all the blasts and whatnot Su instead of most being Sp. What is essentially a non-caster having to worry about SR on much of his main schtick seems off.

Dark Archive

I agree that spell resistance is not really a necessary thing to add.

Mostly I'm in love with this class from the standpoint of wanting to chuck the contents of a dinner party at someone who interrupts dinner. The thing that turns me off is knowing that TK blast is going to miss against anything with a moderate investment in AC. That's why I would like to see Feel the Burn have more of an impact on attack and damage rolls.

If I could get +1 to attacks and damage per point of burn at level 3, and the bonus per point increased by +1 at level 7, 11, and 15, then I could see an accurate hit happening even with a 3/4 BAB, a constitution focus and no enhancement bonuses to my weapons. If people are worried about that making touch attacks impossible to miss with, then lower the boost it gives to the touch blasts or simply weaken their inherent power.

Silver Crusade

pavaan wrote:

Just a though. so you can only take a number of burn points a day equal to 3+ con mod. each time you take one point of burn you take level in non lethal damage. now comes the change up, if the burn non lethal damage would heal normal both with magic and without. normal healing would be 1 point of non lethal per level per hour. and any magic healing would heal equal amount of non lethal and lethal damage at the same time.

so without magic healing each point of burn takes one hour to heal naturally. but you can still only have a number of burn points per day = 3+con mod.

now given that some games have it be the 15 minuet adventuring day, if natural healing was available it would not matter, if magical healing is possible it would use up some resources from the party be it a cure spell or a aoe healing some resources is used up.

other games have it be hours between fights,(days does not matter for this) so downtime would matter a bit more, each hour would make it that much easier to fight same goes with magic healing. but the thing is you can still only take an amount of burn = to 3+con mod a day.

bottom line if natural healing and magical healing is allowed for burn damage it does not change how many times a day it can be done.

sorry if it seems all over the place, just trying to put in my thoughts on this as best i can.

That nonlethal damage does not heal until after a full nights rest.


Someone pointed out that most classes with combat as their theme have some way of boosting their attacks rolls, and none of them, except one(Rage) has anything to do with Hit Points.

Weapon Mastery, Rage, Bane/Judgment, Inspire Courage, Challenge, Mutagen, Favored Enemy, Smite Evil, and (some)Spells all give bonuses to attack and damage rolls.

So we can at least give the Kineticist full base attack bonus and iteritves attack blasts, right?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Having played around with a class mechanic that used temp hp as a resource pool, I'm finding I'm not a big fan of the Burn mechanic as it has all the issues I discovered there, plus some.

For starters, there's the the most basic issue of having to track two separate pools of nonlethal damage; that caused by Burn, and that taken in the normal course of events. That can get annoying at the table, for GM and player both.

Then there's the glass cannon issue. You can take up to 120 points of nonlethal damage using Burn by 20th level, a level at which a character made with average system mastery can probably be reasonably expected to have 258 hit points on average (assuming the iconics represent average system mastery, that'd be probably 26 CON and average die rolls). You can theoretically do that 6 times based on the in-class limit, but in reality you can only afford to do it twice, at which point any attack from a level appropriate challenge takes you out of the game. Even if we boost CON up a bit more that doesn't really change that situation at all. So the class is encouraging you to do things that will wipe your character out.

The scaling is a little weird too, but it looks like a point of burn basically floats between 1/12th and 1/9th of your total hit point resources, so it's probably good enough over character life.

Silver Crusade

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This character seems to be a striker, pretty high damage, great mobility and very limited personal abilities.

My only worry, is that most classes can benefit from something like versatile weapon and align weapon even if they can't cast it themselves.
This might provide trouble when a character comes to face something like an Inevitable with DR/chaotic and regeneration/chaotic. And they lack surefire way to deal with incorporeal enemies, since they lack force effects and ghost bane weapons aren't an option.

Other than that, I like the class.

Paizo Employee Designer

Guys, loving the new wild talent ideas. Excellent.

Also, @Deflect Arrows: "Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."

These are generated by spell effects, so they can't be deflected (ranged touch attacks can be deflected with Ray Shield by an 11th-level fighter with a shield who can take that feat, but the ones that hit against normal AC just can't be deflected period).

Dark Archive

I was playing and was also thinking that it would be nice for an ability to allow for nonlethal damage for the blasts. For certain blasts that is not practical but some should be able to.

Dark Archive

Mark, any thoughts on increasing the potency (or even the cap) of Feel the Burn? Right now the bonus to hit only makes up for 3/4 BAB.

Paizo Employee Designer

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brad2411 wrote:

I was playing and was also thinking that it would be nice for an ability to allow for nonlethal damage for the blasts. For certain blasts that is not practical but some should be able to.

I like it. It could be, for instance, a tk thing that requires light touch. Once you're in control enough to avoid breaking objects, you can start to think about a softer touch with your attacks.

Shadow Lodge

things i've noticed while keeping up with this fourum
1. 4+ skill points
2. more skill choices
3. full BAB and higher hit-dice
4. need ways to over come alignment DR
5. some mentioned just making it into a pool like grit or acrane pool
6. lower lv to get a second element

and more stuff i cant rember right now, i love the class and with improvements it will be great, i cant wait to see the final version :D


The burn mechanic is really cool and flavorful and I'd like it to stay, I just... think it needs to be better. A d10, or even a d12 hit die would do a lot to help that.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Mergy wrote:
Mark, any thoughts on increasing the potency (or even the cap) of Feel the Burn? Right now the bonus to hit only makes up for 3/4 BAB.

Short Version: Please playtest the class and let me know how it goes.

Longer Version:
Right now I am sitting at over 100 hours clocked (only possible because I've been playtesting since August, in case the number seems odd!) in a playtest with a hydrokineticist who shoots water (so goes up against full AC) in a game with no bards or even bless spells flying. He is still a scary fellow. I am also sitting on a spreadsheet of damage for kineticists and archers of various sorts that indicates that the damage output is correct, confirming those playtest. I would like to see more data first. The idea is for the touch AC attacks to be low risk lower reward and the full AC attacks to be higher risk higher reward, so the fact that the math people were providing showed tangible miss chances for the full AC attacks is as intended (in general by level 7, if you want, you should be able to choose between both on a round by round basis. Right now the playtest character is level 5 and he's doing amazingly at hitting things. Feel the burn upping at 6 is going to put him even better, and then at 7 if he wants he can grab a touch attack and just choose strategically). These guys don't have to hit with an iterative to yield their full damage, so if they are as accurate with their high-risk higher-damage attack as an archer is with her first attack of the round (by which I mean, eventually archers usually hit except on a 1 with their first attack), that isn't good. It's also a problem with the balance of touch attacks and full AC attacks. I want you to have meaningful choices with your kineticist, especially at higher levels where a lot of damager classes do the same thing time and again. Do you have the intel to know that this monster is hard to hit in AC but has low touch (or perhaps you just look at it and see that its slow and big)? That's the time to use your other blast. Want to make the choice to only have full-AC options by going all geo/terra? Cool! You get some pretty cool stuff like rare metal infusion. Want to do the reverse and put all your eggs in fire? Cool! You get the only composite blast that targets touch AC.

Summary: The kineticist has a system of checks and balances right now to make the options more interesting. Sometimes the weaknesses of a particular style are intended and balanced with the payoff. But what if the payoff isn't enough? What if they need to be tweaked? I'd love to see playtest data to help me figure out how! I'm more likely to want to make something to make your choices awesomer at what they're already good at than to make them stronger at their weaknesses because weaknesses encourage variety. So for instance, in the full AC blasts are too much worse than the touch AC blasts, I'd rather increase their damage even more or give them something else cool than up their accuracy so they have similar chance to hit to the touch attacks.


For subterfuge, how stealthy/subtle would a Kineticist be with his blast? Is it like spells where it's obvious that you are using them? Are they like SLAs where it isn't immediately obvious? Could an Aetherkineticist snipe somebody using marbles in a crowd with none the wiser? Is that why Stealth is one of the few skills on their class skill list?

(So many questions!)


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think we need a Hellfire Blast.


zergtitan wrote:
I think we need a Hellfire Blast.

Combined negative energy + fire?


I think a level 7-10 playtest will be more useful. At level 5 the difference between full BaB and 3/4 BaB hasn't quite yet become apparent (especially with the full BaB character's extras, like a Slayer's Swift action Favored Target).

Should probably be compared to an Alchemist and an Archer Inquisitor and work up from there (if it's comparable in combat power to those two it still needs more versatility, if it's not it just needs a straight up boost to power across the board).

I'll see what I an do on that front. At a glance, it doesn't seem as though it's going to measure up (both have more skills, the Alchemist pumps out more attacks a round, for the same damage per hit as one of the blasts, with extra effects like Nausea tacked on, and the Inquisitor likewise gets more attacks with a likely higher flat damage, plus spells), but I'll try it.

Considering those are the two best balanced classes in the game, I think they're a good metric to aim for on balance.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:

Guys, loving the new wild talent ideas. Excellent.

Also, @Deflect Arrows: "Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."

These are generated by spell effects, so they can't be deflected (ranged touch attacks can be deflected with Ray Shield by an 11th-level fighter with a shield who can take that feat, but the ones that hit against normal AC just can't be deflected period).

Thank you Mr. Seifter for bringing the kineticist to Pathfinder. I won't speak for others but I've been waiting a very long time for an elemental-based warlock non-vancian spellcaster. :)

Already theorycrafted numerous builds and had about 2 pages of questions. Fortunately reading this thread answered most of them already.

Will be posting actual playtest feedback after the games this week. I'm actually good with what I've seen already.

I do have some general thoughts though:

How are you handling interaction of various elements and the environment?

How much fire does a water blast put out at level X? What about a Empowered one? Does it have any effect at all?

Kinetic Cover (clarification/revision):

The cover created lasts until destroyed or dismissed by the kineticist. A kineticist can have up to 1 such barrier in existence at any one time, plus an additional facing every 2 levels of kineticist. Attempts to exceed this limit will result in failure to create new cover with the requisite burn (if any) still being expended. Using different element types to create cover does not increase the total number that may exist at any given time. Any number of existing facings may be dismissed by the kineticist that created them as a standard action.

More later and thanks again sir!

EDIT: ninja'd while adding another question...will post separately :)

Paizo Employee Designer

Rynjin wrote:

I think a level 7-10 playtest will be more useful. At level 5 the difference between full BaB and 3/4 BaB hasn't quite yet become apparent (especially with the full BaB character's extras, like a Slayer's Swift action Favored Target).

Should probably be compared to an Alchemist and an Archer Inquisitor and work up from there (if it's comparable in combat power to those two it still needs more versatility, if it's not it just needs a straight up boost to power across the board).

I'll see what I an do on that front. At a glance, it doesn't seem as though it's going to measure up (both have more skills, the Alchemist pumps out more attacks a round, for the same damage per hit as one of the blasts, with extra effects like Nausea tacked on, and the Inquisitor likewise gets more attacks with a likely higher flat damage, plus spells), but I'll try it.

Considering those are the two best balanced classes in the game, I think they're a good metric to aim for on balance.

I would absolutely love to see level 7-10 playtests. But in those playtests especially, if you build the kineticist to not have access to both a touch blast and a full-AC blast, that's a design choice, and you could have chosen otherwise. At level 5 (soon to be 6), Eram is guaranteed to only have one or the other, and he's doing great at 5 (and mathematically will only improve at 6, since he actually just lost a BAB at 5 without gaining a feel the burn and is at his relative weakest) even compared to the melee brawler.

Paizo Employee Designer

Rerednaw wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Guys, loving the new wild talent ideas. Excellent.

Also, @Deflect Arrows: "Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."

These are generated by spell effects, so they can't be deflected (ranged touch attacks can be deflected with Ray Shield by an 11th-level fighter with a shield who can take that feat, but the ones that hit against normal AC just can't be deflected period).

Thank you Mr. Seifter for bringing the kineticist to Pathfinder. I won't speak for others but I've been waiting a very long time for an elemental-based warlock non-vancian spellcaster. :)

Already theorycrafted numerous builds and had about 2 pages of questions. Fortunately reading this thread answered most of them already.

Will be posting actual playtest feedback after the games this week. I'm actually good with what I've seen already.

I do have some general thoughts though:

How are you handling interaction of various elements and the environment?

How much fire does a water blast put out at level X? What about a Empowered one? Does it have any effect at all?

** spoiler omitted **
More later and thanks again sir!

I know there's some kind of fire rules somewhere that address water spells because I've seen them come into play a few times in PFS. If no one else locates them, I will look for them when I have the time (which isn't yet, I'm afraid).

Dark Archive

Thanks for the clarification, especially the long version. I'll be looking at playtests or at least test builds of a few different kineticists in the near future, especially at mid levels.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:

...

I know there's some kind of fire rules somewhere that address water spells because I've seen them come into play a few times in PFS. If no one else locates them, I will look for them when I have the time (which isn't yet, I'm afraid).

Fair enough, just treat as existing interactions as per the PRD. Thanks!

Oh here's my other snippet:

General information regarding blasts. I would suggest that the relevant element is simply extracted or created on the spot, i.e. an aether specialist does not need to have unattended objects on the floor, he can hurl a sphere of solid aether when using his blast ability. Said element then decays into valueless debris or sublimates/evaporates, as per the Rare Metal Infusion power.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mark,

I'm going to be doing a lot of testing with this particular class. Will see if I can get some friends to test others.

Are you more interested in PFS feedback (written for 20 point buy) or Adventure Path feedback (written for 15 point buy)?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Athansor wrote:

Mark,

I'm going to be doing a lot of testing with this particular class. Will see if I can get some friends to test others.

Are you more interested in PFS feedback (written for 20 point buy) or Adventure Path feedback (written for 15 point buy)?

Awesome, I can't wait to see it. With enough feedback, we are going to rock this class guys!

I am more interested in any kind of feedback you like. However, if you want a point buy suggestion, I'd say just do 20 point buy, since rolled stats average to 20 and 15 is an artifact of a math error made by the designers of 3.0, so you'll have more fidelity for both 20 point buy and (the average of) campaigns with rolled stats. It shouldn't be an enormous difference either way, since 5 pb is usually just a +1 on something good, but think of it as a way to branch out and have like a non-7 charisma and do something different and cool with each kineticist!


Rerednaw wrote:


Oh here's my other snippet:

General information regarding blasts. I would suggest that the relevant element is simply extracted or created on the spot, i.e. an aether specialist does not need to have unattended objects on the floor, he can hurl a sphere of solid aether when using his blast ability. Said element then decays into valueless debris or sublimates/evaporates, as per the Rare Metal Infusion power.

I personally love the idea of using actual objects, even though it may sometimes be inconvenient. It makes me giggle knowing I can deal 10d6 damage at level 19 with assorted fruits.


I hope to see some play testing too because I won't get a chance to take a crack at it until next week.

Also as cool as the abilities are I'm at a loss as to what to do with it. It looks like a blaster glass cannon but I want to go into melee with it. The burn mechanic makes it look startlingly fragile.

Paizo Employee Designer

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The Game Master wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:


Oh here's my other snippet:

General information regarding blasts. I would suggest that the relevant element is simply extracted or created on the spot, i.e. an aether specialist does not need to have unattended objects on the floor, he can hurl a sphere of solid aether when using his blast ability. Said element then decays into valueless debris or sublimates/evaporates, as per the Rare Metal Infusion power.

I personally love the idea of using actual objects, even though it may sometimes be inconvenient. It makes me giggle knowing I can deal 10d6 damage at level 19 with assorted fruits.

Not the pineapple—NOT THE PINEAPPLE!!!!

Scarab Sages

I am wondering how burn works with Damage Reduction.

Does the nonlethal damage bypasses DR? "It states that A kineticist incapable of suffering nonlethal damage cannot accept burn", so I was wondering how this would work out.

Paizo Employee Designer

Burn is not a physical attack, so DR would not apply to it. Similarly to how a creature with DR 6 is not immune to starvation.


Mark Seifter wrote:
The Game Master wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:


Oh here's my other snippet:

General information regarding blasts. I would suggest that the relevant element is simply extracted or created on the spot, i.e. an aether specialist does not need to have unattended objects on the floor, he can hurl a sphere of solid aether when using his blast ability. Said element then decays into valueless debris or sublimates/evaporates, as per the Rare Metal Infusion power.

I personally love the idea of using actual objects, even though it may sometimes be inconvenient. It makes me giggle knowing I can deal 10d6 damage at level 19 with assorted fruits.
Not the pineapple—NOT THE PINEAPPLE!!!!

hitler already knows


Place me in the more skill points camp. 3/4 bab and d8 hp means at least 4 skill points, unless you are int based. You can't give a 3/4 bab the same skill point disadvantage as a fighter.


christos gurd wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
The Game Master wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:


Oh here's my other snippet:

General information regarding blasts. I would suggest that the relevant element is simply extracted or created on the spot, i.e. an aether specialist does not need to have unattended objects on the floor, he can hurl a sphere of solid aether when using his blast ability. Said element then decays into valueless debris or sublimates/evaporates, as per the Rare Metal Infusion power.

I personally love the idea of using actual objects, even though it may sometimes be inconvenient. It makes me giggle knowing I can deal 10d6 damage at level 19 with assorted fruits.
Not the pineapple—NOT THE PINEAPPLE!!!!
hitler already knows

Yes!!! I was thinking the same thing!

Would not want 10d6 like that.


Skill point upping would be nice.
I think the defense stuf should be able to be used as an immediate action via burn expenditure as well though.
I can't really talk about the BAB... I haven't played higher level stuff enough but having played other 3/4th guys.. I miss a ton without some sorta boost.. Feel the Burn does give yo usome to hit. .but I am still not sure. Is that only for the turn you take burn. or is it always on as long as you have burn?

but I myself quite like the Burn Mechanic. It is pretty harsh consideirng AOE possibilities... so I could see some argument for having it tracked differently.
My alternate thought if people want it to change totally
So like you track your burn amount, but it doesn't lower your actual damagable HP. but anything that reduces HP amounts (poison , co ndamage etc) reduces the total for both. if the burn goes over the hp amount the rest starts legitly burning your character for straight up hp damage. Like.. your power goes out of contro land starts tearing you apart. And that HP can not be healed until you sleep.
So you get like HP(lethal/nonlethal and Burn HP. Sure you have to sorta track both.. but it's not that hard considering it's not much different than say tracking spells used.
That way your less likely to trip down some stairs after a big blast and die instantely or something.

I do think that aether needs some cool combo stuff though. since as it stands they only get :Force damage, and later a +1 per dice damage buff. Though that can be a lot of damage. But it's always going to be more damage for those folks who have an element instead of aether--because those abilities eventually do 2d6 instead of 1d6. Thats a lot of d ifference for a one shot per round guy

So.. random thought anyone noticed. These are SLA/SU and anytime as you'd like. So intheory can't you use conductive weapons to be able to use a weapon? Like.. using a fire blast once a round via a heavily magicked xbow, bow or gun. Right? That is one way you could get more to hit vs non touch ac... Though if you add any burn abilities I think you'd have to be burned twice.

Silver Crusade

Mark Seifter wrote:

Guys, loving the new wild talent ideas. Excellent.

Also, @Deflect Arrows: "Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."

These are generated by spell effects, so they can't be deflected (ranged touch attacks can be deflected with Ray Shield by an 11th-level fighter with a shield who can take that feat, but the ones that hit against normal AC just can't be deflected period).

The mythic monster ability Block Attacks could still neuter a character with only one attack, and of course mirror image would be very efficient.

Have you considered a power (perhaps in aether) that allows a character to split their blast damage among several attacks? Spells like Fiery Shurikencould be be something of a template. After all once your can deal several d6 of damage, splitting them between a number of attacks can be more effective (lower chance of no hits, but DR and Resistances are a factor).


Just from the first glance at the doc, my wife and I really want to roll up water and fire kineticists, respectfully. Composite blasts are our favorite part because we tend to roll characters that work in tandem with each other, so I'm really hoping that they get expanded in the final book :)

Dark Archive

Can Weapon Focus be taken with Kinetic Blast?

Additional question: Cyclone says all targets in a 20 ft. radius centered on you take damage. Does that include the kineticist?


Mark, I have a question.

So, would it be possible to see some umbrakinetic based stuff? Like, dealing with drawing upon the shadows and such for a stealthier type of kineticist? I know they have stealth as a class skill, but there aren't really any abilities that play off of stealth besides their (AWESOME) super range capabilities. I think I'm gonna roll up a telekinetic assassin-like character to see how that plays out.
Not that this class needs stealth, per say. It would just be awesome to have a build that plays off of it. Maybe using negative energy?


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Mark's talk of spreadsheets got me thinking, and I decided to put it to the test in my own small way. So for giggles, I threw together three sketches at level 8. One Kineticist, two Fighters. All are Human, for simplicity. Behold:

Kineticist
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 20
Int: 11
Wis: 10
Cha: 7

1: Hydrokineticist, Slick, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2: Kinetic Healer
3: Toughness
4: Expanded Range
5: Form Infusion Specialist, Weapon Finesse
6: Kinetic Blade
7: Expanded Element (Aerokinesis), Weapon Focus (Any Finessable Weapon)
8: Substance Infusion Specialist, Entangling Infusion

Fighter (Archer)
Str: 16
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: 9
Wis: 10
Cha: 7

1: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
2: Deadly Aim
3: Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
4: Weapon Specialization
5: Improved Initiative
6: Manyshot
7: Clustered Shots
8: Snap Shot

Fighter (Two-Hand)
Str: 20
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

1: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Improved Initiative
2: Furious Focus
3: Cleave
4: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
5: Great Cleave
6: Cleaving Finish
7: Improved Cleaving Finish
8: Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword)

I am entirely certain all could be better optimized, but I think they're good enough for my purposes.

I ran some damage numbers with them. Factoring in crit chance, we get this:
Kineticist (ranged, single attack): 25.725 damage, +10 to hit (Touch)
Kineticist (ranged, move action to Empower with 0 Burn): 33.075 damage, +10 to hit (Touch). Alternately, may use single-attack damage for an Entangle chance
Kineticist (melee, single attack): 25.725 damage, +11 to hit (Touch)
Kineticist (melee, full attack): 25.725 damage, +11/+6 to hit (Touch)
Archer (single attack): 18.15 damage, +12 to hit
Archer (full attack): 18.15 damage, +10/+10/+10/+5 to hit
Two-Hand (single attack): 28.6 damage, +16 to hit
Two-Hand (full attack): 28.6 damage, +16/+8 to hit

According to a handy-dandy spreadsheet I found:
CR 6: Mean AC 19, Mean Touch AC 12
CR 7: Mean AC 20, Mean Touch AC 13
CR 8: Mean AC 21, Mean Touch AC 12

Means are rounded off. Median/Mode are close enough to Mean.

Thus, running out average damage we get this. Numbers are CR6/CR7/CR8:
Kineticist (ranged, single attack): 24.43/23.15/24.43
Kineticist (ranged, move action to Empower): 31.42/29.75/31.42
Kineticist (melee, single attack): 24.43/24.43/24.43
Kineticist (melee, full attack): 42.45/42.45/42.45
Archer (single attack): 12.705/11.795/10.89
Archer (full attack): 39.02/35.39/31.76
Two-Hand (single attack): 25.74/24.31/22.88
Two-Hand (full attack): 40.04/37.18/34.32

Thus, based on the math:

  • The Kineticist's ability to target Touch AC makes them very formidable up-close, directly competing with two-handing a Greatsword.
  • The Kineticist can compete at range, and is effective in a shoot-and-move role, but will lag behind a true archer in damage on full attacks. This is largely due to the Fighter's superior volume of attack.
  • The Kineticist, as it stands, is likely one of the supreme switch-hitters of the game. Note that this is one Kineticist being compared to two separate fighters, and keeping up with both.
  • Median Touch AC is hovering around the 12 range throughout the game.
  • These advantages are lost when not targeting Touch AC. As a result, I believe it will generally be wiser to take two different elemental blasts (such as cold/electricity) instead of an elemental blast and a weapon-typed blast (such as cold/bludgeoning). This does carry risk: the Kineticist can be shut down by an enemy with sufficient resistances. However, careful elemental picks can at least help alleviate this.
  • Burn is exactly what I'd hoped it was and feared it wasn't: a nova option. All of the above attacks were done with 0 Burn.
  • The Kineticist's ability to consistently target Touch AC is its accuracy-amplification ability. Adding in more is unnecessary, unless it only applies to the non-touch blasts.
  • I'm not convinced the Kineticist has need of Precise Shot. It will be supremely helpful at low-level, but if I took Point-Blank/Precise Shot I'd likely retrain out of them around level 10 or so. Because a Kineticist can easily close the distance at that level (Ride the Blast, you are so very sexy), they shouldn't be shooting into melee regardless.
  • The primary disadvantage of the Kineticist is going to be its fragility. I expect many players will make room for Medium Armor Proficiency, one way or another.
  • Screw Avatar, I'm currently turning the above build into a rework of a character I had on a Naruto RPG back in the day.
  • Coolest class ever. Well. After the Magus.

And of course, the caveats:


  • This test was done without items. This is largely because I believe-- or at least hope-- that the Kineticist will get some sort of item or Wild Talent to grant weapon enhancement.
  • All builds are likely suboptimal, but the Kineticist pitched may be a little further up the curve due to the fact that there's less to consider with it.
  • The above ignores DR and Elemental Resistances. The latter is becoming more common by CR6-8. The Kineticist really, really wants a party Wizard/Magus/Bard/other Knowledge Monkey to tell them which elements to avoid.

Paizo Employee Designer

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Guys, loving the new wild talent ideas. Excellent.

Also, @Deflect Arrows: "Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."

These are generated by spell effects, so they can't be deflected (ranged touch attacks can be deflected with Ray Shield by an 11th-level fighter with a shield who can take that feat, but the ones that hit against normal AC just can't be deflected period).

The mythic monster ability Block Attacks could still neuter a character with only one attack, and of course mirror image would be very efficient.

Have you considered a power (perhaps in aether) that allows a character to split their blast damage among several attacks? Spells like Fiery Shurikencould be be something of a template. After all once your can deal several d6 of damage, splitting them between a number of attacks can be more effective (lower chance of no hits, but DR and Resistances are a factor).

From some earlier posts in this thread, I am considering a form infusion like that, yes. It would come at much lower level than aether's crazy-awesome many throw.


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Tirisfal wrote:
Just from the first glance at the doc, my wife and I really want to roll up water and fire kineticists, respectfully. Composite blasts are our favorite part because we tend to roll characters that work in tandem with each other, so I'm really hoping that they get expanded in the final book :)

This makes me think that there should be a Teamwork Feat for Composite Blasts between two Kineticists. Kind of teaming together to combine their elements for a single more powerful blast.


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Definitely think elemental keywords/descriptors are a must.

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