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914 posts. Alias of Ryzouken.


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toastedamphibian wrote:

Ugh. Maybe save the arguments about exact wording and obvious implicit restrictions for its own thread? If memory serves, ascetic style is not allowed in PFS, and the creators have stated the rules are not intended to be interpreted in as literal a manner as those of us who spend our free time discussing them are apt to do.

OP: Ascetic style probably does help you, just ask your dm if it will work for him/her. In my experience, they will probably shrug and say 'whatever'. If you want to use two styles though, you will have to take additional feats to make that work.

Catfolk aren't allowed in PFS barring a single solitary boon, so gauging all discussion based on PFS is rather pointless in this instance. The discussion regarding how exactly claw blades, claw attacks, and various feats interact is entirely on point for this thread and critical to the completion of the OP's build. Hence, we absolutely should discuss it.

As to the actual problem the OP is trying to solve: I'm interested to see how this works out. I had worked on similar for a home game, trying to make use of the claw attack rule bits for catfolk monks, but ultimately discarded it all seeing I was jumping through multiple hoops to bring my claw attacks up to par with unarmed strike damage, which was decidedly worse than just two handing a temple sword or sansetsukon.

It appears you've hit on the Scaled Fist archetype, so that's a step in the right direction. I'll recommend grabbing Steadfast Personality to patch your Will save as best you can, and further suggest grabbing Vision Mastery for see invis or darkvision around level 5. See invis is a pain in the rear to get access to if you can't just cast it (personal range, so no potions, level 2 spell, so expensive for wands), and darkvision is just gravy once you can activate Vision Mastery more than once.

*switches to lurker mode to observe results of another's claw build*

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Berserker of the Society requires Barbarian level(s).
Bloodrager is not Barbarian.
Bloodragers without Barbarian level(s) therefore do not qualify to take Berserker of the Society, currently.

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Harold Ervin wrote:

Ryzoken,

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

My point was, it's a conundrum with no easy answer.

And as an aside, I like your phrase "fraudulently obtained replays". Wish I had thought of it.

Ryzouken can turn a phrase, oh yes he can.

More to the point, the 1000 and 1 statement (which I lampooned) is actually the basis upon which the American justice system is theoretically founded. Hence why we have a stupidly extensive appellate system, the beyond a reasonable doubt standard for conviction (as opposed to a simple preponderance of evidence standard seen commonly in civil law), even the jury of peers is theoretically part of the whole "let guilty men walk before wrongfully convicting any innocent" dog and pony show.
Which you probably maybe knew.
Not that I necessarily endorse this model, just drawing a parallel for a joke.

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Harold Ervin wrote:
-stuff-

Better to let 1000 fraudulently obtained replays occur than deny 1 justly earned?

***

Yes.

The exceptions to the rule pertaining to ownership of source material are specific and finite. One needs to prove ownership and provide applicable rules text in all cases save those enumerated by the guide/additional resources document.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Just dip a level of unchained rogue 1, wizard x, and take the extra sneak attack feat. free weapon finesse and some other goodies.

And Wayang if it's not on your radar/fits your concept. Great race for a trickster what with perfect racial mods, small size (and commensurate boosts to everything you care about), and access to some really nifty racial tricks if you have Blood of Shadows. I, for one, greatly enjoy boosting four important touch attacks by 3 per day with the shadow speaker (and wayang soothsayer feat)

The tricky bit is figuring out what to do archetype wise, since you're only getting one to three levels in your base classes before prestiging.

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"Mitch Mutrux wrote:
I'm not trying to win Pathfinder here.

I will welcome whatever end humanity receives with open arms, even unto the heat death of the universe, if it means an end to people saying this phrase and variations thereof.

A player may optimize for a variety of reasons, whether out of a desire to improve oneself, a desire to be a credit to his or her team, or just to survive combat so as to play their guy longer and that player may choose to optimize to any given degree. I would be utterly floored if it were ever in the interest of "winning" Pathfinder. To suggest that it is the reason a player optimizes is insulting in the extreme, as it belittles the time and effort spent in so doing.

Insisting someone is trying to win Pathfinder is akin to making a personal attack, which I really wish people would have figured out by now. It doesn't strengthen your position, it just reads as a weak attempt at painting your target jn a negative light.

So please stop doing that.

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I know my PFS Trickster was the rog 1 (+accomplished sneak attacker feat) wiz3 entry...
Unchained for the free weapon finesse and improved sneak attack.

Heavily considered going snakebite brawler 1 instead of un.rog for bab and other stuff, figured the weapon finesse and sneak attack concealed targets was worth the 1 bab.

Now he's up to 7, just got his improved familiar and wand of tiny hut so he's ready to rock and roll!

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Jeff Morse wrote:
Like a 9th level alchemist doing spellcraft on items found. In truth, i was so tired by than, it was half way through the game before i caught it.

This is actually perfectly legal if you have the appropriate wayfinder vanity and rank(s) in the skill. Discerning, I believe it's called.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:


I ask, because I have (on multiple occasions) had an AoE go off around a downed PC. The player on those occasions assert "Guess I get no save" at which point I have routinely ruled "Well, the rules grant you a saving throw and I have not seen a rule which removes your ability to roll said save, so roll." I'm curious if I've just missed something somewhere.

while unconscious your dex is zero (-5). And it's a class with a poor reflex save. So pack the BBQ flavored sunscreen.

This is helpful, thank you.

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andreww wrote:
While getting coup'd seems like a bit of a dick move you are very likely to be taking full damage from every AoE effect going.

Please indicate where in the rules the unconscious condition causes you to lose the ability to roll Reflex saves.

I ask, because I have (on multiple occasions) had an AoE go off around a downed PC. The player on those occasions assert "Guess I get no save" at which point I have routinely ruled "Well, the rules grant you a saving throw and I have not seen a rule which removes your ability to roll said save, so roll." I'm curious if I've just missed something somewhere.


Atalius wrote:
The subject line says it all folks, what is the best way to deal the most damage in fights as a Core druid?

Bolding and embiggening mine, for emphasis.


Lausth wrote:
You cant have cracked ioun stones for pfs.Atleast that is what my friends told me.

Your friends are wrong.

You can have cracked stones, but they do not have resonant powers.

Check Additional Resources.


Wheldrake wrote:
If this guy's a friend, you need to just GET OVER IT and let him play the character he wants.

Or develop better friends.


ShroudedInLight wrote:
He's not the GM, just an angry player.

And?

Kicking a player shouldn't be the GM's choice anyway, it should be a group decision. My advocacy of this resolution expects him to discuss with the group and either develop a consensus to do so or otherwise develop a compromise. I suppose that wasn't clear.


Indicate where the door is located and strongly suggest he not let it strike him when it closes behind him.

You've identified his playstyle. You've identified it isn't a good fit for the rest of your group's playstyle. You've intimated he should alter his playstyle to better suit the group. He refused. Eject him and find a new player.


CorvusMask wrote:

Really, I wonder why people don't complain more about how unspecific druid's core rulebook spells.

I mean, we had so many debates about how wall of thorns work at my table before we finally made homerule about it that we follow :P And the druid's player has multiple times commented that he thinks spell itself needs whole errata dedicated to it xD

Uh, yeah. That spell is both really interesting and really poorly written. I'm curious what your houserule looks like for it.

The problems I see with it are: it's a wall of thorns that impedes movement. We can infer it also impedes sight, but to what degree? Do I have concealment? Total concealment? What happens if I drop a cloudkill on the same area? Does the wall of thorns block line of effect? Can the cloudkill travel into the area of the wall of thorns? If it can't, does that mean the area in the wall of thorns is therefore airtight, potentially causing suffocation (I doubt it)?

Could really use clarification.


Legacy of Fire. No subsystem, multiple multilevel dungeons, combat and exploration heavy. Requires conversion from 3.5


Alderic wrote:

I'm a big fan of teacups for aether kineticists.

Go for point blank and the rest of the chain if you expect to be able to be at range most of the time, but I'd make sure I had Weapon Finesse and Kinetic Blade for those times you can't move out of the way.

Also, are you ppl sure the object used for kinetic blade is damaged by the blast ? Kinetic Fist is an infusion as well, do you take the damage from your blast with each attack ?

Hmm. On reread, I'm not sure. Here's the relevant texts:

Telekinetic Blast wrote:
You throw a nearby unattended object at a single foe as a ranged attack. The object must weigh no more than 5 pounds per kineticist level you possess. If the attack hits, the target and the thrown object each take the blast's damage. Since the object is enfolded in strands of aether, even if you use this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack doesn't use any of the magic weapon's bonuses or effects; it simply deals your blast damage. Alternatively, you can loosen the strands of aether in order to deal damage to both the object and the target as though you had thrown the object yourself (instead of dealing your normal blast damage). You substitute your Constitution modifier for your Strength modifier if throwing the object would have added your Strength modifier on the damage roll, and you don't take the –4 penalty on the attack roll for throwing an object that wasn't designed to be thrown. In this case, the object's special effects apply (including effects from its materials), and if the object is a weapon, you must be proficient with it and able to wield it with one hand; otherwise, the item deals damage as a one-handed improvised weapon for a creature of your size.

Bolding mine, for emphasis.

Kinetic Blade wrote:

You form a weapon using your kinetic abilities. You create a non-reach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand formed of pure energy or elemental matter. (If you're a telekineticist, you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.) The kinetic blade's shape is purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the damage dice, critical threat range, or critical multiplier of the kinetic blade, nor does it grant the kinetic blade any weapon special features. The object held by a telekineticist for this form infusion doesn't prevent her from using gather power.

You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade. Since it's part of another action (and isn't an action itself), using this wild talent doesn't provoke any additional attacks of opportunity. The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers to your kinetic blast's damage as normal, but not your Strength modifier). The blade disappears at the end of your turn. The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast deals, and it interacts with Armor Class and spell resistance as normal for a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or another unusual object, the attack doesn't use any of the magic weapon's bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist's blast damage. The kinetic blade doesn't add the damage bonus from elemental overflow.

Kinetic Blade doesn't specifically alter Telekinetic Blast's self damage clause, so I'm tempted to argue it remains functional. I don't know how that operates, then, with Kinetic Fist, given it also doesn't modify the self damage clause from Telekinetic Blast. That said, I enjoy the mental image of a Telekinetic Fist attack injuring the user, if not the mechanical implications.


avr wrote:
I figure a quiver of arrows is your default way of getting around items breaking. There's no question about drawing arrows being a free action.

I use shuriken. Added coolness from being able to emulate the railgun of Tokiwadai without the annoyance of arguing about the action economy of drawing a coin.


Aether doesn't work so well because you have to use a physical item to attack and that item takes damage, resulting in it being destroyed. So you need to solve for the need to draw new items on every swing of your full attack.


Rylar wrote:
What is the advantage to going Aether as your second element (if it is your first too)?

Infusion gained at level 7. Waiting til 9 for Foe Throw or Kinetic Whip wasn't something I wanted to do.


I've a level 8 aether kineticist in PFS. Went full aether. Super fun. Doubled up on aether to get foe throw at level 7, which has proven amazing in play.

Your kinetic buffer defense talent thingy gives you remarkable amounts of resilience, and does it without taxing your healer. You can literally make dozens of damage disappear over the course of a day, provided you have a few minutes to breathe (and regenerate your hp shield) between fights. Kinetic whip works quite well, really letting you throw damage around, but don't overlook the utility and control that foe throw can provide. I've thrown bad guys off cliffs, into ceilings above pits, and at each other with great results.

Out of combat, your tk ability renders most pits, cliffs, and terrain challenges relatively obsolete. Need to ford a river with your wagons? Hoist em over. Need to get up or down a cliff face? Hoist your team up with that plank of wood you're carrying around(or that nearby tree.) X-wing sunk into the swamp? Raise it out and set her down on dry land. Goblins from the deeps ascending to assault your fellowship? Move that busted stone pillar to block the door, then lower your team down the well the idiot halfling dropped a corpse down. Bad guys ran inside a two story building? Lift your fighter up to the balcony to cut off their escape route. You have most of a level 5 spell in your pocket, so leverage it. You could pick the lock of the door, or you can blast it off its hinges and ride it through the dungeon as a hoverboard of comical size!


Traits really are pretty bonkers. I've played with them my entire Pathfinder career, but they very much influence how I build characters. The half a feat thing is trotted out in any discussion of traits, but I have never really agreed with that valuation.

Setting aside the traits that feats do not replicate (as referenced by Athaleon above), even something as benign as +1 to a skill and making it a class skill isn't actually half of Skill Focus. If I take two such traits, I end up with +4 to two skills (+1 and the class skill bonus) for a grand total of +8, whereas Skill Focus gives a maximum of +6 to a single skill. So I'm getting more bang for my buck and spread across two skills instead of one. Now granted, that means my ceiling in a particular skill is lower than if I had taken Skill Focus instead (by 2), but I generally find I prefer the spread competency over the specialization. Then we get into the metamagic cost reducers or the reroll trait, or the shifting stat mod traits and... well... feats look worse and worse.

I'm not advocating the removal of traits, nor am I intending to rail against their existence, this is more just a musing and observation. I love traits, and really enjoy the benefits they provide. They're just really, really good.

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So we should ban power attack. After all, it's desired by virtually any character that swings a stick.

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KitsuneWarlock wrote:
Some awards can be awarded at the home, like publisher's clearing house and their novelty checks.

Technically?

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SCPRedMage wrote:
Technically, I'm already home, and was at the time of my previous posts as well, so I can't exactly "take it home".

Technically, if it were a physical award we'd ask you to receive it publicly necessitating your leaving home and, therefore, putting you in the position of needing to take it home.

Technically speaking.

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Kevin Willis wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Who's going home with a pedantry award?

Well, Lau, I think that it would technically be an award for pedantry, not a pedantry award.

** spoiler omitted **

Technically, his full name (as presented in his user name) is Lau Bannenberg.

Spoiler:
Likewise. Joke.

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MadScientistWorking wrote:
Kircheis wrote:
For the record, I was doing a sap master/Unchained Scout Rogue/Brawler unarmed strike thing. Like charging for 9d6 damage, most of which is precision. In my head it made sense (but I really like weak/pressure point fighting), but the local group (jokingly) plays off my attack as strength based in flavor and I've never bothered correcting them
At what level are you doing 9d6?

If my math is correct: 6.

Snakebite Brawler 1 for 1d6 sneak, Unchained Rogue 5 for +3d6. Sap Master to double, unarmed strike of 1d6.
1d6 + 2(4d6) = 9d6.

It's similar to my build, but I replaced Snakebite Brawler with Kata Master Monk and only took 4 in Unchained Rogue before heading off into Noble Fencer Swashbuckler and Urban Bloodrager. More defensive approach, giving me parry and riposte for incoming attacks and panache recovery off unarmed strikes.

It occurs to me that one could achieve 9d6 earlier by subbing more sneak attack classes in place of levels of Unchained Rogue, but Debilitating Injury and Scout's Charge is amazing so...

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andreww wrote:
Herolab is basically terrible.

Fixed that for you.

Also: this thread and the pfs schrodinger fighter thread have eroded the last shreds of my interest in participating in pfs further for the foreseeable future. So thanks for that I guess.

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David knott 242 wrote:
If the retraining is permanent, then the Barroom Brawler feat, which is obviously intended to grant only a temporary benefit to a character, could be used to make a permanent change to the character.

And? How is this a problem?

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Talonhawke wrote:
The skill point retrain is an easy fix,

I don't believe it needs a fix, once one accepts that my presented Case 1 is how the interaction functions.

FWIW: I'm of the opinion that Barroom Brawler should remain open ended as well.

The skill point shuffle is a neat trick for fighters, one of the first actually interesting options for them to address their inadequacies. Once it's made clear exactly how the trick works and what limitations it has (no reverting of shifted skill ranks when AT/VT falls off, restrictions on selecting VT based on weapon groups selected, etc.) that trick is within the bounds of reasonable, at least in terms of PFS play.

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supervillan wrote:
But the interaction with Barroom Brawler (and similar) produces a result that breaks verisimilitude: my ability to swing a weapon real good means I get (the benefit of) all of the skills at max ranks, including real knowledge.

Unless your shifting of skill ranks is permanent, at which point those skill ranks could be forever locked into a specific skill preventing you from repeating the trick.

To be clear: I believe RAW is that Case 1 is how it is. I further believe a lot of people erroneously believe Case 2 is RAW. I further believe that some of the people who understand that Case 1 is RAW believe Case 2 is preferable, presumably as a fighter buff. I believe Case 2 is detrimental to the game. I further believe Case 1 is reasonable, as would be Case 3 as outlined above. I'm of the opinion that Case 1 should be the accepted standard, as Cases 2 and 3 would require additional errata/clarification text which brings with it it's own problems down the line.

It can be challenging to figure out how the Versatile/Adaptable shuffle functions, but once you have it worked out the limitations are pretty fair in the scope of PFS play. It only really gets nutty around level 10, at which point you're 6-12 games from retirement anyway. Even with the AV Shuffle, fighters still suck...

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Walter Sheppard wrote:
If the clarification makes it something reasonable (e.g.: changes are not permanent), I have no problem with it in PFS.

But that isn't what you want. It really isn't.

Case 1: retrained ranks are permanent
Fighter has ranks in Intimidate. Uses Barroom Brawler to gain Adaptable Training(Intimidate) shifting ranks from Intimidate to Knowledge Arcana. Performs knowledge check. Barroom Brawler wears off, removing Adaptable Training. The ranks are permanently locked into Knowledge Arcana.

Case 2: retrained ranks are temporary
Fighter has ranks in Intimidate. Uses Barroom Brawler to gain Adaptable Training(Intimidate) shifting ranks from Intimidate to Knowledge Arcana. Performs knowledge check. Barroom Brawler wears off , removing Adaptable Training. The ranks are returned to Intimidate, letting the Fighter later use the exact same trick to shift ranks into Knowledge Religion for a different check. Then, later, again to perform a Survival check. And then again, for a Profession Barrister check.

Case 2 is inherently more unbalanced than Case 1, as there are situations where skill ranks are permanently allocated in Case 1.

With permanent changes to skill ranks (as RAW, btw) the fighter is restricted in what skills he can shift ranks to if he ever wants to shift those skill ranks again. Specifically, he is restricted to the list of skills under Adaptable Training and whichever skills are listed in the Versatile Training that matches his Weapon Training weapon groups.

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Jared Thaler wrote:
No, when VT ends, all of it's effects should end. Otherwise, you have a fighter who can completely reallocate all of his skill points, every game. (During down time, use VT once a day until all your skill points are where you want them.)

Respectfully, I disagree.

Mechanically, you only get to reallocate points spent in skills applicable to the VT you select. There is no text pertaining to what happens if VT is lost, thus we must assume changes are permanent, since they typically are. This is desirable, as it creates limits on how the trick can be abused.

A fighter is, at most, going to have two weapon groups during standard play. This means that at most, the fighter's skill points are going to cycle between the options listed in Advanced Armor Training Adaptable Training (Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (engineering), Profession (soldier), Ride, or Swim.) and two of the listed weapon groups for Versatile Training. As soon as skill ranks get put in, for example, Knowledge Arcana, they're permanently placed there and can no longer be reallocated due to not being disrupted when AT or VT is selected by way of Barroom Brawler.

As to whether this is problematic or not, is up for debate. But as is, the abilities discussed (Adaptable Training and Versatile Training) reference retraining which is a permanent effect. This is very much preferable to the retraining only being temporary(as you suggest), which would remove all restriction on when skill ranks are shifted. (Need Knowledge Arcana? Grab Adaptable Training to retrain my skill ranks from Intimidate to Know: Arcana, make the knowledge check, 1 minute later, Barroom Brawler wears off, removing AT and my skill ranks jump back to what they were, letting me replicate the trick on any skill)

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My reading of the process is as follows:
Step 1: gain AWT(Versatile Training X)
Step 2: reallocate skill ranks spent in skills pertaining to AWT(Versatile Training X)
Step 3: time passes, resulting in AWT(Versatile Training X) no longer being possessed.
Step 4: play proceeds.

The reallocation of skill points is clearly not temporary. The possession of AWT is temporary. Losing AWT does not provide an opportunity for you to reallocate skill points. This is relatively clear, based on my reading of the relevant rule entries.

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*Reads CBDunkerson's response*
*Reads responses to CBDunkerson*
*Thinks about potential responses*
Eh. They got this.
*Goes to build a Pokemon TCG deck*

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Mighty Glacier wrote:

"Everyone, introduce your characters."

2 paladins, 1 cleric of Shelyn, 1 diabolist devil-summoner, 1 CN steelblood bloodrager who roleplays as what amounts to a downplayed antipaladin, and me: a necromancer."

So why'd they send two teams on one briefing?

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KitsuneWarlock wrote:
The attempted attack made my GM feel awkward and it was ruled on the spot that a bird shouldn't be able to do that much damage. I accepted his ruling without argument, doing 1 or 2 damage with my peck, and continued the combat on foot, unable to reach any enemies with my unarmed strikes as they were all flying. I understand PFS is "RAW", but I don't like confronting GMs or causing uneasiness at tables, so I let my GM do his thing and talk to him about it before the next game, if I play the same character...

That isn't a ruling. That's willfully contravening rules to nerf a character because it doesn't fit the GM's perception of balance. It's exactly the kind of thing you're not supposed to do when GMing for PFS.

To be clear: your problem there is not with the ring, it is with a GM flagrantly violating the spirit of PFS: legal options should be legal at every table.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Plus the precedent that they're the same thing was set as of Weapon Master's Handbook.
No, it wasn't and I've explained why.
No you haven't, you've referenced a FAQ regarding a completely different question.

"As far as the Weapon Masters Handbook is concerned, the advanced weapon training feat calls out the weapon master as an exception to the standard rules, specifically permitting a weapon master fighter to select that feat. This is not atypcial, such exemptions are regularly located in the special section of feats. So no, the WMH does not set the precedent you believe it does."

As written, several posts ago.

I am now convinced you aren't actually reading my posts and thus am now finished responding to you.

In fact, I'm pretty finished responding in this thread period, since I've stated and restated my position with all responses being recursive in nature.

So I'm done until the FAQ changes or an actual, reasonable counter argument is made. All arguments pertaining to the name of the weapon master fighter's level 3 ability and pertaining to the Weapon Master's Handbook contravening this FAQ will be ignored, as they have previously been addressed.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Plus the precedent that they're the same thing was set as of Weapon Master's Handbook.

No, it wasn't and I've explained why.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Looky there, you're right. Dang, that is a blow to them. Those gloves are the best thing that has happened to the fighter, and are expected to be had around lv10 for the AWT abilities, not getting those gloves is a big decline for the weapon master

I love you.

Strictly platonically. But still. There it is.

I'm going to go eat breakfast.


Shisumo wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Quote:
If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
A 3rd level or higher weapon master fighter has "the weapon training class feature" so the rest of the gloves' ability kicks in. Whether it's the same feature as the fighter doesn't seem to be relevant based on the wording.
This is the core point of contention: the weapon master does not have the weapon training class feature according to the FAQ.
He has a class feature called weapon training. That should not be in debate.

Once again: the name of a class feature does not matter. Only the description and mechanics. Read the FAQ.

At this particular point, I'm tired of repeating myself. Set aside your preconceptions about how things should be, read the FAQ, think about what it means. Repeatedly telling me what an ability is named does not help when the FAQ explicitly tells you to disregard the name of an ability.


Shisumo wrote:
Quote:
If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
A 3rd level or higher weapon master fighter has "the weapon training class feature" so the rest of the gloves' ability kicks in. Whether it's the same feature as the fighter doesn't seem to be relevant based on the wording.

This is the core point of contention: the weapon master does not have the weapon training class feature according to the FAQ.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I don't think it should be controversial to say that a feature named "Weapon Training" should count as "Weapon Training."

IMO, the Weapon Master, the Soehei Monk, and the Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest can all use the Gloves of Dueling. That FAQ was about class abilities that mimic weapon training but are not named "Weapon Training" (e.g. "Swashbuckler Weapon Training", "Crossbow Expert", "Expert Archer", etc.)

The gloves just ask if you have a feature called "Weapon Training". It's clear that "Weapon Training" counts as "Weapon Training" but less clear whether "Spear Training" counts as "Weapon Training."

But it doesn't because of this FAQ. Read it.

"It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)"

If only the description and game mechanics of an ability matter, the weapon master's weapon training does not qualify for gloves of dueling.


Did you read the FAQ I posted? It's right there. In full text.

That FAQ specifically bars the gloves from working on the weapon master fighter's weapon training class feature because it isn't the fighter weapon training class feature. The name of an ability does not matter, the mechanics do. It's written right there in the faq.

As far as the Weapon Masters Handbook is concerned, the advanced weapon training feat calls out the weapon master as an exception to the standard rules, specifically permitting a weapon master fighter to select that feat. This is not atypcial, such exemptions are regularly located in the special section of feats. So no, the WMH does not set the precedent you believe it does.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The weapon master's ability is called weapon training, just like the original fighter's. I'm fairly certain that the gloves work for it.
FAQ wrote:

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?

It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.

Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.

The weapon master fighter's weapon training is structured in the same way as the archer fighter. The name of the ability is explicitly called out to not matter. Thus it does not qualify.


Rysky wrote:
Or all the abilities that are Weapon Training, but don't have Training in the title so they're not.

Like the weapon master fighter's weapon training, which as far as as I can tell, falls under the same faq due to its structure. I mean, I might be wrong there, but the evidence I could find suggest strongly that one cannot enhance the aforementioned with gloves of dueling. Which is annoying.

*
I tried building the Schrodinger's Fighter in a PFS legal build. I gave up when I hit the design fork of: play weapon master and get access to the core trick (barroom brawler + abundant tactics) at level 6 but without the benefit of gloves of dueling or play eldritch guardian and get access to the core trick at level 9, with the character's retirement looming at level 12. I mean, the latter could get the core trick earlier, but wouldn't then be able to do the item mastery shuffling until level 10 which is a major contributor to the trick being desirable in the first place. Further, the weapon master fighter doesn't seem to qualify for versatile training weapon mastery due to his weapon training being a specific weapon type and not the listed types of weapon training, preventing him from selecting those nifty extra skill ranks. Also: no bravery for armed bravery. So the archetype that is best suited to leveraging advanced weapon training has exceedingly few options he can actually take.
*

Point is: this build feels unworkable in PFS. At lower levels, poaching the brawler's trick is really only getting me combat tricks (or see invis/darkvision in the case of the item mastery trick) and I only enjoy the benefits of higher level tricks (teleporting, flying, telekinesis, etc.) for three levels or so until the character retires. Otherwise, I'm still just a fighter.

*: This paragraph assumes the following: that weapon master fighter's weapon training isn't actually weapon training for gloves of dueling and the like and that the specific weapon training it does have doesn't constitute a weapon group for the selection of advanced weapon training options such as versatile training. It further assumes that you need weapon training in a weapon group to select the associated benefits of versatile training.

***

Jared Thaler wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

We call it a rite of passage round these parts. Or, we did.

Good times...


I have a query: is it necessary to have weapon training in a fighter weapon group in order to select the versatile training advanced weapon training for a given weapon group?

That is to say: if I have weapon training in heavy blades, can I select polearms and thrown for my versatile training advanced weapon training selections?

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