General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Would a Gnome with the Pyromaniac alternate trait gain an increase to their effective level with fire based blasts and Wild Talents? If so, that would dovetail quite nicely with their bonus to Constitution too.


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This is my favourite class from the playtest - truely unique. Nice work Mark!

I theorycrafted the following build. I built it quick so there might be some problems with it (using PFS rules)

Jack the Human Water Kineticist

1) [Wild Arcana: Slick], Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2) [WT: Extra Range]
3) Improved Initiative
4) [WT: Kinetic Blade]
5) [Infusion Specialization: Form], Weapon Finesse
6) [WT: Kinetic Whip]
7) [WT: Expanded Element (Aether)], Combat Reflexes
8) [WT: Expanded Defense], [IS: Form]
9) Toughness
10)[WT: Spark of Life]
11)[IS: Form], Iron Will
12)[WT: Kinetic Form]

HP: 171 + 12 (with 48 nonlethal)
AC: 38
Saves: 16/18/9 (20/23/13 with greater heroism)

atk: ice blast +18 (+22) touch (6d6+3)
telekinetic blast +18 (+22) (6d6+12)
kinetic whip +17/+12 (+21/+16) touch (6d6+2)
kinetic whip +17/+12 (+21/+16) (6d6+11)

Str: 7
Dex: 19 (25)
Con: 17 (20) -> 24 with Elemental Body II
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 7

Equipment:
(16000) Belt of Dex +4
(8000) Pink Rhomboid Sphere Ioun Stone (+2 con)
(11100) Mithral Chain Shirt +3
(4000) Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1 atk)
(9000) Cloak of Resistance +3
(2000) Ring of Protection +1
(2000) Amulet of Natural Armor +1
(5000) Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
(5000) Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (+1 insight AC)
(30000) Boots of the Battle Herald (30 rounds of greater heroism)
(2000) Handy Haversack
Total: 98k

At the start of the day Jack activates Force Ward (+12 temporary HP) and Shroud of Water (with 2 burn for a total +6 shield AC). He then activates Kinetic Form with 2 burn to turn into a medium Water Elemental. In combat Jack is a switch hitter, using ice blast at range and then kinetic whip up close. Jack can also mix things up with Slick (i.e. grease) and Spark of Life (to summon a Large Water Elemental). In a pinch Jack can empower (1 burn) or maximize (2 burn) to make his kinetic whip hurt ( +25/+20 for 9d6+21 or 51 damage per hit).

After building this I have a couple thoughts:

- This build has a good power progression. At level 1 you can either blast or grease. By 8 you can use Kinetic Whip for free and have Weapon Finesse. By 12 you get more flexibility with an AoE and summoning.

- This build doesn't really need many feats outside of PBS, Precise Shot and Weapon Finesse. With more time I would replace the rest of the "filler" feats with something that would give more combat flexibility. Maybe some sort of intimidate option? Or Whirlwind Attack? If Vital Strike works with Kinetic Whip then that is the obvious choice (actually Vital strike shouldn't stack - imagine VS + Empower or Maximize!). I could also see grabbing Wild Arcana a bunch to add more options - I didn't since I am sticking to PFS rules.

- This feels like a wizard build by being very SAD, having very low gear requirements and one save that really needs to be shored up. All that gear gets you on a Kineticist is defence (AC/Saves) and stat bumps.

- Grab every attack bonus you can. This class seems tailor made for the Boots of the Battle Herald - no swift actions and a need for more attack and saves. Missing out on Boots of Speed hurts but +4 attack is far more important. Does the greater heroism temporary HP stack with Force Shield? Actually how does the Boots of the Battle Herald give temporary HP - is it refreshed every round?

- Before burn this build has amazing defense outside of the Will save. I estimate that you could use an extra 3 burn before getting in trouble (giving you a total of 99 HP after temporary hp/nonlethal)

- Since I specialized in form infusions I stayed away from composite blasts and substance infusions since the majority of them cost burn every time. I feel like if I need to nova I can use metakinesis.

- With the human bonus and 12 int you have 4 skill points per level. This isn't terrible but with poor mental stats and no extra out of combat utility this build will fall short in social situations.

Anyways I think that this is a great first step for the class. Let me know if I made any glaring errors.

Paizo Employee Designer

Lemmy wrote:

Seems like a pretty cool class. I too vote for the Terrakineticist being renamed Geokineticist... Specially because it opens the possibility of Terrakineticist being used for a new element that focus on wood/plant control! (Make it happen, Mark! I know you can! ^^)

The 2 skill points per level and abusrdly short list of class skills seem unnecessary, though. Really, no PC other than Int-based full casters should ahve less than 4 skill points per level... That's the bare minimum you need to be good at anything involving skills. I know it's a SAD class, but the extra points will either go to Str (if the character wants to fight in melee) or Wis (because weak Will saves are incredibly deadly past 7th level). In fact, 2+Int only encourages players to dump Int (I personally never dump Int, but I can see why someone would do it). I honestly don't understand this idea that classes should have as few skill points as possible... All it does is increase the gap between full casters and other classes.

The Kineticist is a "outdoorsy" class. Shouldn't it have more skill points per level than the caster (of equal intelligence) who spends his life in a church or tower, studying prayers and/or arcane tomes?

Also, this being an element-based class, shouldn't it have Kn(Planes) and Kn(Nature) as class skills? The first would help them to interact with elemental creatures and the second seems appropriate, as being in tune with the natural world could be a nice background story for how a character got his elemental powers. In fact, add Survival to the list of skills that should be class skill.

And what about Climb, Fly and Swim? Wouldn't those be appropriate for a character that can control earth, air and/or water?

Each element adds some class skills, so it does have some more available than it seems.

As for skill points--every time I make a class that has 2 skill points (and even 4), I always think about adding 2 more skill points. In fact, I brought up that very question for the kineticist when I was writing it. It's at 2 for now due to wisdom that the others had--when you're deciding something like this, the playtest is a good crucible and you're never going to see anyone say "This class was perfect except I wish it had 2 fewer skill points".

Don't worry! :) When I say I'm listening to your feedback, though, it's not boilerplate. I'm really listening, and I'm going to make sure to bring the skill points up at the end of the playtest based on everyone's feedback and playtest results!


I would love to see an archetype that grants a sorcerer bloodline. Makes all abilities cha based. Maybe use your burn to us bloodline spells as spell like abilities. Also an option to get bloodline feats instead of a wild talent if you want.

Paizo Employee Designer

Jason Robbs wrote:

This is my favourite class from the playtest - truely unique. Nice work Mark!

I theorycrafted the following build. I built it quick so there might be some problems with it (using PFS rules)

Jason, awesome build! There's a lot of similarities in build to the (currently 5th level) Eram in my Skull and Shackles game. You did such a great job, I even don't feel a need to post Eram any more. If you get a chance to playtest Jack at all, I'd be thrilled to hear feedback in the other subforum (that goes for people other than Jason who want to give the character a spin).

@Filler feats--maybe go grab some extra wild talents with the feat in the 2dn post of this thread!

Shadow Lodge

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For those of you having a hard time grokking the Burn ratio to HP loss, I hacked together a quick spreadsheet to visualize it for myself.

This assumes a 18 CON and FCB of +1 HP every level.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Jason Robbs wrote:

This is my favourite class from the playtest - truely unique. Nice work Mark!

I theorycrafted the following build. I built it quick so there might be some problems with it (using PFS rules)

Jason, awesome build! There's a lot of similarities in build to the (currently 5th level) Eram in my Skull and Shackles game. You did such a great job, I even don't feel a need to post Eram any more. If you get a chance to playtest Jack at all, I'd be thrilled to hear feedback in the other subforum (that goes for people other than Jason who want to give the character a spin).

@Filler feats--maybe go grab some extra wild talents with the feat in the 2dn post of this thread!

I was sticking to PFS so no extra wild talents (at least not yet). I just realized that you can't use Spray with Cold Blast so I switched Spray to Kinetic Form. Does Kinetic Form last all day? The AC + CON boost seems crazy.

Dark Archive

Wanted to toss my two cents out there and say that it is a cool looking class. The one thing I would like to see change is a reduce element restriction for many of the wild talents. I think a lot of the talents could be done through multiple elements. For instance, taking the first talent, Burn, you could do the same thing (although the fluff might require a bit of change) with any element.

Hydrokinetist could boil the water, Terrakinetist could create magma, Aerokinetist could create steam clouds... no clue about the Telekinetist, but still. Point being, the character modifies their power in some way to cover their enemies in a painful substance. If you wanted to drop the 'Burn' part, you could just do something else painful. (Water creates ice so cold it burns, Earth creates jagged shards of rock, etc.)

It would create more options for the players. Sure, some could remain entirely with a certain element, but I think a lot more should be opened up for players to customize.


I am trying to build 7th level telekineticist and feel like TK gets short stick comparing to others, who, at this level, get the composite blasts that deal much better damage. At the same time the only composite option for kineticist who picked aether as elemental focus is to go full aether for (gasp) force blast that is really weak for the burn that it inflicts. Picking any other element gives you no composite options - if you pick any other element as your focus and aether as expanded one you at least get (still unimpressive when comparing to other composite blasts) aether boost.


@Jason
Note: This is not a knock on your build, it's awesome and take full advantage of your system mastery

How do you think the class holds up in a non-magic mart scenario? Say an adventure path with randomly rolled loot in shops and random/pre-written loot drops?


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Mark Seifter wrote:

Each element adds some class skills, so it does have some more available than it seems.

As for skill points--every time I make a class that has 2 skill points (and even 4), I always think about adding 2 more skill points. In fact, I brought up that very question for the kineticist when I was writing it. It's at 2 for now due to wisdom that the others had--when you're deciding something like this, the playtest is a good crucible and you're never going to see anyone say "This class was perfect except I wish it had 2 fewer skill points".

Don't worry! :) When I say I'm listening to your feedback, though, it's not boilerplate. I'm really listening, and I'm going to make sure to bring the skill points up at the end of the playtest based on everyone's feedback and playtest results!

I see your point, and I do believe you are listening to feedback (in fact, that's the very reason I decided to even participate in this playtest), but I will point out that if a full caster (or Int-based caster with any spell progression) appeared with 6 skill points per level, I'd certainly point out that it seems excessive.

There is also another reason for 4 skill points per level that I forgot to mention in my last post... The SADness of the class is somewhat negated by its greater need of Con, not only because it's its "casting" stat, but also because it takes additional damage due to Burn... So yeah, it's a SAD class, but it needs a really high attribute (even more so than most full casters, who don't need high save DCs to be effective).

Besides... It'd increase character variety without making the class unbalanced, and that's always good.

Anyway... Now after you mentioned Terrakinesis is more about Nature stuff... Any chance you rename it Geokinesis and make Terrakinesis an Wood/Plant-manipulating kineticist? That'd be awesome! I know quite a few characters that use that trick but are otherwise completely different from Druids.

And how about an archetype that lets the kineticist manipulate positive/negative energy instead (or in addition to) elemental energy?

Paizo Employee Designer

Jason Robbs wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Jason Robbs wrote:

This is my favourite class from the playtest - truely unique. Nice work Mark!

I theorycrafted the following build. I built it quick so there might be some problems with it (using PFS rules)

Jason, awesome build! There's a lot of similarities in build to the (currently 5th level) Eram in my Skull and Shackles game. You did such a great job, I even don't feel a need to post Eram any more. If you get a chance to playtest Jack at all, I'd be thrilled to hear feedback in the other subforum (that goes for people other than Jason who want to give the character a spin).

@Filler feats--maybe go grab some extra wild talents with the feat in the 2dn post of this thread!

I was sticking to PFS so no extra wild talents (at least not yet). I just realized that you can't use Spray with Cold Blast so I switched Spray to Kinetic Form. Does Kinetic Form last all day? The AC + CON boost seems crazy.

It's at-will right now. It's likely that it's going to be more restrictive in the final version. I hadn't gotten to it yet in actual playtests.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm really enjoying almost everything I've read in this class so far, but I did want to comment on one minor nitpick: blizzard blast and ice blast feel too similar. Perhaps blizzard blast could be slashing and cold?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Drejk wrote:
I am trying to build 7th level telekineticist and feel like TK gets short stick comparing to others, who, at this level, get the composite blasts that deal much better damage. At the same time the only composite option for kineticist who picked aether as elemental focus is to go full aether for (gasp) force blast that is really weak for the burn that it inflicts. Picking any other element gives you no composite options - if you pick any other element as your focus and aether as expanded one you at least get (still unimpressive when comparing to other composite blasts) aether boost.

Hmm, you should still get aether boost when going that direction. If not, that may have been an unintended side effect of the streamlining we did on how composites are presented (I used to have a chart of all the combinations instead).


Insain Dragoon wrote:

@Jason

Note: This is not a knock on your build, it's awesome and take full advantage of your system mastery

How do you think the class holds up in a non-magic mart scenario? Say an adventure path with randomly rolled loot in shops and random/pre-written loot drops?

I think it would do fantastic with suboptimal gear. Even completely naked you have (10 + 5 dex + 6 shield + 5 NA from elemental body) 26 AC and saves of 12/13/6 - grab some mage armor, fix the will save and you are good to go. The low attack bonus will hurt so you will have to stick to touch attacks (+14 to hit vs AC of 27ish)

Dark Archive

Is the expected role of the class pure damage? It looks that way from my point of view, but perhaps I'm missing a big piece of the puzzle.

I still think attack bonus is too low for kineticists that choose to not rely on touch blasts. What if Feel the Burn's progression was lessened, but it increased attack and damage by its amount for every burn point? If your Feel the Burn was at +2 and you had 3 burn points, you would be getting +6 to the attack and damage of your blast. That would give the kineticist the very dangerous option of getting close to unconsciousness in order to go all out.

If that attack boost is too much for the touch options, maybe lessen their damage progression?


Mark Seifter wrote:
Drejk wrote:
I am trying to build 7th level telekineticist and feel like TK gets short stick comparing to others, who, at this level, get the composite blasts that deal much better damage. At the same time the only composite option for kineticist who picked aether as elemental focus is to go full aether for (gasp) force blast that is really weak for the burn that it inflicts. Picking any other element gives you no composite options - if you pick any other element as your focus and aether as expanded one you at least get (still unimpressive when comparing to other composite blasts) aether boost.
Hmm, you should still get aether boost when going that direction. If not, that may have been an unintended side effect of the streamlining we did on how composites are presented (I used to have a chart of all the combinations instead).

In such case it will require changing prerequisites from 'expanded element (aether)' - which you only meet when you pick aether as second element to something like 'either expanded element (aether) or aether as a focus element and expanded element (any other element)'.

Paizo Employee Designer

Lemmy wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Each element adds some class skills, so it does have some more available than it seems.

As for skill points--every time I make a class that has 2 skill points (and even 4), I always think about adding 2 more skill points. In fact, I brought up that very question for the kineticist when I was writing it. It's at 2 for now due to wisdom that the others had--when you're deciding something like this, the playtest is a good crucible and you're never going to see anyone say "This class was perfect except I wish it had 2 fewer skill points".

Don't worry! :) When I say I'm listening to your feedback, though, it's not boilerplate. I'm really listening, and I'm going to make sure to bring the skill points up at the end of the playtest based on everyone's feedback and playtest results!

I see your point, and I do believe you are listening to feedback (in fact, that's the very reason I decided to even participate in this playtest), but I will point out that if a full caster (or Int-based caster with any spell progression) appeared with 6 skill points per level, I'd certainly point out that it seems excessive.

Investigator is pretty much a 6-level caster with 6+Int skills, I suppose. I don't recall calls to lower its skill points, but I may not remember them.

Quote:

There is also another reason for 4 skill points per level that I forgot to mention in my last post... The SADness of the class is somewhat negated by its greater need of Con, not only because it's its "casting" stat, but also because it takes additional damage due to Burn... So yeah, it's a SAD class, but it needs a really high attribute (even more so than most full casters, who don't need high save DCs to be effective).

Besides... It'd increase character variety without making the class unbalanced, and that's always good.

I follow. I'm certainly keeping it in mind!

Quote:

Anyway... Now after you mentioned Terrakinesis is more about Nature stuff... Any chance you rename it Geokinesis and make Terrakinesis an Wood/Plant-manipulating kineticist? That'd be awesome! I know quite a few characters that use that trick but are otherwise completely different from Druids.

And how about an archetype that lets the kineticist...

I can't say I haven't also had ideas like adding the wood element. I will say that my classes are already massive page hogs, though, and it would take a good dedication in pages to make that a reality.


This guy feels like a monk. Specifically, the type of monk people have been trying to build to convert Air/water/etc. benders into pathfinder, mostly with MOTFW and the various style feats.

I like it! I do think that either skill points to match the monk at 4+, or D10HD/FullBAB would be worth considering.


Jason Robbs wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

@Jason

Note: This is not a knock on your build, it's awesome and take full advantage of your system mastery

How do you think the class holds up in a non-magic mart scenario? Say an adventure path with randomly rolled loot in shops and random/pre-written loot drops?

I think it would do fantastic with suboptimal gear. Even completely naked you have (10 + 5 dex + 6 shield + 5 NA from elemental body) 26 AC and saves of 12/13/6 - grab some mage armor, fix the will save and you are good to go. The low attack bonus will hurt so you will have to stick to touch attacks (+14 to hit vs AC of 27ish)

I think we've reached a pretty similar conclusion on something.

The touch based Blasts are really very appealing because of the relatively low Attack bonus.

Maybe we could get an ability that "leaches enhancement bonus" from an obtained weapon? Like we use the weapon as a conduit to enhance our Blasts?

Alternatively I've heard a few calls for D10 hit die. I don't know how the extra HP from upping the hit die would affect the class, but I don't think the increase in BAB would have a negative effect.


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It doesn't feel like a sad class. It makes me happy about it's general direction...

The need for more skill points is particularly needed when building telekineticist because he would surely need more skills that he could use from a distance to make picking telekinetic finesse talent worthwhile.


Okay, so I actually got to play my Kineticist just now. Had a lot of fun; there's just something innately satisfying about being able to look at a problem and say "I throw a rock at it". I don't think there's too much I can say at the moment because most of my neater tricks won't come online until later.

One thing I'm noticing already is that my to-hit is really low, even at this level. It didn't come up much because I was rolling abnormally high today (got three 20's) but I can already see how this is going to be a very Monkish problem going forward. I think the non-touch blasts should count your Kineticist level as your BAB, it would make their to-hit much more in line with other raw damage classes.

Shadow Lodge

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Done a bit of testing.

Using PFS rules (20 point buy and PC wealth), I rolled up a 6th level human Water Kineticist.

For testing purposes I put him up against CR 5/6 monsters from the bestiaries (obviously avoiding Water elementals, and other things immune to his attacks.)

Quick Build:

Lorem Ipsum - Kineticist(Water) 6
Stats: Str 7, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 7
HP: 69
AC: 20 (23 after using the water shield)
Fort +12, Ref +11, Will +5

Water Blast: +9, 3d6 + 8 bludgeoning

Talents:
Slick
Kinetic Cover
Kinetic Healer
Torrent

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise shot, Deadly aim, Weapon Focus(Blast)
Gears: Cloak of Res +2, Belt of Con +2, +2 Mithril Chain

The opponents:
Bearded Devil (CR 5)
Deinonychus x3 (CR 3 each)
Lamia (CR 6)
Babau (CR 6)

The Results:

Bearded Devil - Dropped to 1 HP, healed self using the gather elemental power ability and Kinetic Healer, then won.

Deinonychus - Easy fight, Torrent made things easier.

Lamia - Took Wisdom drain, failed the slumber save and died. Reset the fight, got dropped really low, but Kinetic Healer + gather power saved the day again. Had significant problems hitting.

Babau - Died twice in a straight up fight. Couldn't punch through the DR, and with the Kineticist's sub-par bonus to hit (only hitting 55% of the time, when not using Deadly Aim), losing 10 damage was killer.

The tests confirmed my initial suspicion, the Kineticist wrecks enemies with low AC and no DR, but falls apart against everything else.

First off, let's discuss DR. As is, only geokineticists can punch through material DR, and there's no way to punch through alignment DR. This puts the Kineticist significantly behind every other combat class in the game when dealing with 6+ CR enemies. But I think that's easily dealt with through new Infusions/items/spells.

Second is the AC vs. Damage conundrum. As is, the Kineticist gets one attack (which has ~50% chance to hit against CR appropriate enemies.) But, you can't just give them a flat bonus to hit, since their single-target damage is insane.

I think the simplest solution is to give them full BAB, but switch their damage scaling to a table (like monks and brawlers). However, I'm sure there's a far better one, which utilizes the systems that are already in place.

Overall, I really like the flavor and this is definitely the class I'm most excited for, but I think it needs some work before it's a viable choice.

Edit:
I also totally support upping their skill points and class skill list. Some of us like contributing outside of combat.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Each element adds some class skills, so it does have some more available than it seems.

As for skill points--every time I make a class that has 2 skill points (and even 4), I always think about adding 2 more skill points. In fact, I brought up that very question for the kineticist when I was writing it. It's at 2 for now due to wisdom that the others had--when you're deciding something like this, the playtest is a good crucible and you're never going to see anyone say "This class was perfect except I wish it had 2 fewer skill points".

Don't worry! :) When I say I'm listening to your feedback, though, it's not boilerplate. I'm really listening, and I'm going to make sure to bring the skill points up at the end of the playtest based on everyone's feedback and playtest results!

I see your point, and I do believe you are listening to feedback (in fact, that's the very reason I decided to even participate in this playtest), but I will point out that if a full caster (or Int-based caster with any spell progression) appeared with 6 skill points per level, I'd certainly point out that it seems excessive.
Investigator is pretty much a 6-level caster with 6+Int skills, I suppose. I don't recall calls to lower its skill points, but I may not remember them.

I think that's because of three reasons: It suffers from the alchemists spell-casting limitations, doesn't have the same variety of spell effects as most other casters and it's basically a Rogue that works, so people wanted it to have many skill points.

Mark Seifter wrote:
I can't say I haven't also had ideas like adding the wood element. I will say that my classes are already massive page hogs, though, and it would take a good dedication in pages to make that a reality.

Pfff... Use "Burn" to suffer damage and use Expand Page Count on your game design SLA!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Think there's a small error with the magnetic infusion, in the example of the -4 penalty to Reflex save against metal objects, it says "such as that granted by blade barrier". Unfortunately, blade barrier creates blades of force, not of metal.

Dark Archive

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Wishlist:
1. 4 skills/level, and Knowledge (planes) and Survival always available as class skills
2. Make the non-touch blasts more accurate, or give them something extra to do. Making them more accurate might be possible by...
3. Make Feel the Burn more potent so that I'm tempted to bring myself to the edge of death
4. Give Expanded Element automatically at 7th and 15th. The wonky Wild Talent progression is there obviously so that everyone can take it, and it's such a no-brainer to grab more blast options that I can't see anyone not taking it anyway

Biggest worry is still the attack boost. I just can't seem to make it work without seriously dumping non-vital stats, and I can't see myself enjoying playing such a character.

Paizo Employee Designer

Insain Dragoon wrote:
Jason Robbs wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

@Jason

Note: This is not a knock on your build, it's awesome and take full advantage of your system mastery

How do you think the class holds up in a non-magic mart scenario? Say an adventure path with randomly rolled loot in shops and random/pre-written loot drops?

I think it would do fantastic with suboptimal gear. Even completely naked you have (10 + 5 dex + 6 shield + 5 NA from elemental body) 26 AC and saves of 12/13/6 - grab some mage armor, fix the will save and you are good to go. The low attack bonus will hurt so you will have to stick to touch attacks (+14 to hit vs AC of 27ish)

I think we've reached a pretty similar conclusion on something.

The touch based Blasts are really very appealing because of the relatively low Attack bonus.

Maybe we could get an ability that "leaches enhancement bonus" from an obtained weapon? Like we use the weapon as a conduit to enhance our Blasts?

Alternatively I've heard a few calls for D10 hit die. I don't know how the extra HP from upping the hit die would affect the class, but I don't think the increase in BAB would have a negative effect.

According to my damage charts, it would require a noticeable decrease of blast damage to make up for the increased accuracy (and then some retooling to rebalance touch with non-touch).

Eram is basically built like Jack (but a halfling), and he's been pretty accurate in Skull and Shackles, even though we don't have a bard or any in-party source of a to-hit buff.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Jason Robbs wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

@Jason

Note: This is not a knock on your build, it's awesome and take full advantage of your system mastery

How do you think the class holds up in a non-magic mart scenario? Say an adventure path with randomly rolled loot in shops and random/pre-written loot drops?

I think it would do fantastic with suboptimal gear. Even completely naked you have (10 + 5 dex + 6 shield + 5 NA from elemental body) 26 AC and saves of 12/13/6 - grab some mage armor, fix the will save and you are good to go. The low attack bonus will hurt so you will have to stick to touch attacks (+14 to hit vs AC of 27ish)

I think we've reached a pretty similar conclusion on something.

The touch based Blasts are really very appealing because of the relatively low Attack bonus.

Maybe we could get an ability that "leaches enhancement bonus" from an obtained weapon? Like we use the weapon as a conduit to enhance our Blasts?

All that is really needed is some extra wild arcana that give bonuses to hit:

- Lightning gets +1 to hit every 2 levels vs metal armor/creatures.
- Aether blast vs a creature allows any non-aether blast over the next round to roll 2d20 pick highest.
- maybe add a metakinesis that increases attack?


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Maybe adjusting the damage dice to the type of attack would be the way to go? 1d8 (or in 1d10) for ranged attacks, 1d6 for energy ranged touch attacks, 1d4 for force or sonic touch attacks (because resistances are much rarer)?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Why is pressurized blast a separate infusion from pushing? They do the same thing....


Drejk wrote:
Maybe adjusting the damage dice to the type of attack would be the way to go? 1d8 (or in 1d10) for ranged attacks, 1d6 for energy ranged touch attacks, 1d4 for force or sonic touch attacks (because resistances are much rarer)?

Actually I like where that is going!


Mergy wrote:

2. Make the non-touch blasts more accurate, or give them something extra to do. Making them more accurate might be possible by...

(...)

Biggest worry is still the attack boost. I just can't seem to make it work without seriously dumping non-vital stats, and I can't see myself enjoying playing such a character.

That's a good point. it's not like the Kineticist can buy a magic blast weapon either (or is there some item that does that without occupying a vital item slot?).

Non-touch blasts might have a really difficult time hitting their target if they don't get a significant boost to accuracy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

First of all, I'm a big fan of this class. I've never had as much interest as right now for a Pathfinder Supplement. Since I'm a big fan of Avatar the Last Airbender and Legend of Korra, I think this explains why.

I haven't playtested it yet (I really want to and I'm trying to convince my DM to let me playtest it in his game), so here's what I think from what I read :

-Skills : I'm with pretty much everyone about the skills. It should be upgraded to 4+int. Having cool abilities is fun, but it's nice to have something for roleplaying. This is even more important since Int isn't a main stats like pretty much every other classes with 2+int (except fighter...poor fighter)

-I see there are some Wild Talents creating wall (like a fire wall and wind wall), but no stone wall equivalent for terrakynecist (geokynecist does sounds better I think). I think it would be interesting (and again, Avatar fan...)

-Earth, Aether and Fire should have two blasts for the expanded element talent. At least, these elements should gain something if selected a second time. At least (and I think it could be better), it should give a boost to the element. When you select 2 elements, not only will you gain a new basic blast, but you also gain the possibility to get other wild talents of the new elements. Even if there is a restriction in level, it seems that you gain a lot more by choosing 2 elements instead of one. Fire immunity also is a huge weakness of mono-pyrokinecist.

-Others talked about the huge amount of damage taken from burn and, while I haven't tested it, it does seem to be a lot. Upgrading hit dice or having it be half level could be a solution. Also, since they can't be healed that day, they pretty much work like lethal damage for a day, which can hurt quite a lot in a dungeon or something like that.

-If I understand correctly, Pure Flame Infusion seems kinda unusable. It costs 4 Burn and can only be used with blue flame which, at this level, cost 1 Burn, for a total of 5 Burn. At 16th level, that's 80 nonlethal damage (and since you can't heal them that day, they pretty much work like lethal damage). It then deals 16d6 + half Con +5 with Feel the Burn (IF you hit. While not being that hard, bad luck happens) for a total of 61 + half Con on average. On average, you take more damage than ou inflict, which is...really not worth it. Also, is it me or while it says blue flame could be used with the Explosion talent, it really is not possible since it costs 4 Burn (or 3 if you specialized) and you can only use 6 in a round (that would bring you to 9 Burn).

-You can have Flame Jet at lvl 6 with Fire, but Wind lets you use fly at the same level. Even worse, Greater Flame Jet is 10th lvl and is still worse than fly. It doesn't bother me that Air would offer better mobility if it becomes a kind of focus while Fire was better in damage (which isn't really the case), but Air gets an ability at 6th which is still better than the one Fire get at 10th. Maybe Fire should have an increased speed since you can only go in a straight line or something to make it more appealing?

I just want to say again that I really love the class concept and I just want to make sure it's really fun to use!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Disk Elemental wrote:

Done a bit of testing.

Using PFS rules (20 point buy and PC wealth), I rolled up a 6th level human Water Kineticist.

For testing purposes I put him up against CR 5/6 monsters from the bestiaries (obviously avoiding Water elementals, and other things immune to his attacks.)

** spoiler omitted **

The opponents:
Bearded Devil (CR 5)
Deinonychus x3 (CR 3 each)
Lamia (CR 6)
Babau (CR 6)

** spoiler omitted **

The tests confirmed my initial suspicion, the Kineticist wrecks enemies with low AC and no DR, but falls apart against everything else.

First off, let's discuss DR. As is, only geokineticists can punch through material DR, and there's no way to punch through alignment DR. This puts the Kineticist significantly behind every other combat class in the game when dealing with 6+ CR enemies. But I think that's easily dealt with through new Infusions/items/spells.

Second is the AC vs. Damage conundrum. As is, the Kineticist gets one attack (which has ~50% chance to hit against CR appropriate...

Note that energy damage avoids DR, just as the AoE form infusions avoid the need for attack rolls.

On the flipside, gathering power to avoid burn on kinetic healer doesn't work - see the first post.


I think the accuracy problem is twofold: It makes combat pretty swingy and it can make players feel useless when their dice are against them. To solve the first issue I think that there should be a way to boost to hit when you need it (with burn of course). To solve the second problem you need a way for a player to feel like they are contributing. Maybe a non-touch attack could do something when it misses? For example we could use the alchemist splash rules and have a 6d6+6 blast do 12 damage? That way at least you feel like you haven't wasted a turn.


Kaldrick wrote:
-I see there are some Wild Talents creating wall (like a fire wall and wind wall), but no stone wall equivalent for terrakynecist (geokynecist does sounds better I think). I think it would be interesting (and again, Avatar fan...)

You missed it; earth (as well as aether and water) can use kinetic cover to provide concealment.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Kaldrick wrote:
-I see there are some Wild Talents creating wall (like a fire wall and wind wall), but no stone wall equivalent for terrakynecist (geokynecist does sounds better I think). I think it would be interesting (and again, Avatar fan...)
You missed it; earth (as well as aether and water) can use kinetic cover to provide concealment.

Walls for everybody!


Mark Seifter wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:

I'm confused by the burn entry for wild talents. The burn ability says "Some of her wild talents offer her the option to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect", but all of the wild talents I've read so far list a burn amount, but don't describe a greater effect if you accept burn.

Is it intended that you have to accept burn to use the wild talent at all, and the description of the wild talent is the greater effect? Or is burn supposed to enhance the wild talent, similar to augmenting a mythic spell?

Consider the defense talents like flesh of stone.

I was also confused by this. Maybe it needs to be worded different. It makes you think that the main point of burn is to cause a greater effect of a wild talent, not use a wild talent.

Shadow Lodge

Shisumo wrote:
Note that energy damage avoids DR, just as the AoE form infusions avoid the need for attack rolls.

But most of the creatures which have DR have comparable energy resistance. The AoEs are useful for damaging a group, but they cost a decent amount of Burn, and have significantly lower single target damage.

Shisumo wrote:
On the flipside, gathering power to avoid burn on kinetic healer doesn't work - see the first post.

Dang, I guess Kinetic Healer just got a whole lot worse.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
Kaldrick wrote:
-I see there are some Wild Talents creating wall (like a fire wall and wind wall), but no stone wall equivalent for terrakynecist (geokynecist does sounds better I think). I think it would be interesting (and again, Avatar fan...)
You missed it; earth (as well as aether and water) can use kinetic cover to provide concealment.

Ah, yeah. Could be fun to make bigger walls though. A 5-foot long wall doesn't cover much (it is fine for a first lvl kyneticist wild talent). A better version could be available for later levels (or by burning).


You can cut burn by more than one with correct set of specializations and class features. At level 15th you reduce composite blast burn cost by 1. Another point can be shaved from the blast by taking a move action. Up to four points of burn can be negated by infusion specialization if you pick form infusions consequently.

Shadow Lodge

The other thing I'm concerned with is the almost mandatory 2-feat tax (point blank and precise shot).

Silver Crusade

So this may have been answered, but the Kinetic Blade form infusion. From what I can tell, it's exchanging 1 Burn in order to not provoke an attack of opportunity...but isn't it still a Spell-Like ability, and thus would still provoke?

Paizo Employee Designer

Drejk wrote:
You can cut burn by more than one with correct set of specializations and class features. At level 15th you reduce composite blast burn cost by 1. Another point can be shaved from the blast by taking a move action. Up to four points of burn can be negated by infusion specialization if you pick form infusions consequently.

Indeed. By the time you pick up Pure Flame, if you've built for it, you'll be capable of shooting off an impressive 16d6+1/2 con pure blue flame blast for no burn with an extra move action. All. Day. Long. ^_^


Shouldn't water sense function like blindsense not tremorsense?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Drejk wrote:
You can cut burn by more than one with correct set of specializations and class features. At level 15th you reduce composite blast burn cost by 1. Another point can be shaved from the blast by taking a move action. Up to four points of burn can be negated by infusion specialization if you pick form infusions consequently.
Indeed. By the time you pick up Pure Flame, if you've built for it, you'll be capable of shooting off an impressive 16d6+1/2 con pure blue flame blast for no burn with an extra move action. All. Day. Long. ^_^

Oh! Missed this one. Completely forgot it was a substance infusion. You can ignore this part of my comment ^^'


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I did my own theorycrafting. 8th level volcano mage. Started out with Earth as the primary element, since any geologist will tell you it's the debris (well, superheated and poisonous gas, too) that usually kills you, not the lava. Here she is:

Sheet

My first main issue was how long it takes to gain a second element, as I said earlier. This is the number one issue I have with the class. Dual element characters are really hard to do. I originally wanted to build to 5th level, but I couldn't get fire until 7th. I also couldn't find a way to make earthquakes, and I didn't have enough class skills. I do wonder about my build's accuracy and DR penetration ability, but I leave that to the more experienced. I really do like the class abilities, for the most part, and I love the flavor. This will probably end up being one of my favorite magic users, alongside Alchemist and Witch. I just think dual element should be available at low level, but you should of course have to pay a price for that flexibility. I don't want to wait until level 7 for volcano mage. Yes, that is a massive issue for me.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Drejk wrote:
You can cut burn by more than one with correct set of specializations and class features. At level 15th you reduce composite blast burn cost by 1. Another point can be shaved from the blast by taking a move action. Up to four points of burn can be negated by infusion specialization if you pick form infusions consequently.
Indeed. By the time you pick up Pure Flame, if you've built for it, you'll be capable of shooting off an impressive 16d6+1/2 con pure blue flame blast for no burn with an extra move action. All. Day. Long. ^_^

After making a swift list of infusions form specialization seems to be the way to go unless you plan to focus on a specific substance - there is so much more form infusions than substance infusions that the form is much more favorable. (EDIT: I counted 16 forms versus 8 substances)

Also, there should be a third option to follow for specialization for those who focus on utility non-infusion wild talents. What is the point of picking specialization in form/substance for those kineticists who will have neither?


Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:

I did my own theorycrafting. 8th level volcano mage. Started out with Earth as the primary element, since any geologist will tell you it's the debris (well, superheated and poisonous gas, too) that usually kills you, not the lava. Here she is:

Sheet

My first main issue was how long it takes to gain a second element, as I said earlier. This is the number one issue I have with the class. Dual element characters are really hard to do. I originally wanted to build to 5th level, but I couldn't get fire until 7th. I also couldn't find a way to make earthquakes, and I didn't have enough class skills. I do wonder about my build's accuracy and DR penetration ability, but I leave that to the more experienced. I really do like the class abilities, for the most part, and I love the flavor. This will probably end up being one of my favorite magic users, alongside Alchemist and Witch. I just think dual element should be available at low level, but you should of course have to pay a price for that flexibility. I don't want to wait until level 7 for volcano mage. Yes, that is a massive issue for me.

I think that lowering the level requirement for extend element should be doable - composite blasts are still limited by high burn that is harder to lower than in case of forms/substances. Maybe if we trimmed them a bit it would be viable.

Some sort of earthquake should be available at higher level as a wild talent. After all weather kineticist gets access to control weather.

Paizo Employee Designer

Drejk wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Drejk wrote:
You can cut burn by more than one with correct set of specializations and class features. At level 15th you reduce composite blast burn cost by 1. Another point can be shaved from the blast by taking a move action. Up to four points of burn can be negated by infusion specialization if you pick form infusions consequently.
Indeed. By the time you pick up Pure Flame, if you've built for it, you'll be capable of shooting off an impressive 16d6+1/2 con pure blue flame blast for no burn with an extra move action. All. Day. Long. ^_^

After making a swift list of infusions form specialization seems to be the way to go unless you plan to focus on a specific substance - there is so much more form infusions than substance infusions that the form is much more favorable.

Also, there should be a third option to follow for specialization for those who focus on utility non-infusion wild talents. What is the point of picking specialization in form/substance for those kineticists who will have neither?

The specialization used to be built into infusions in a way that was confusing to understand from first glance (basically, your total infusion cost decreased as you leveled up at a rate exactly equivalent to the specializations). The specializations provided an easier-to-understand way to do the same math while also providing a class feature that can be traded out by archetypes, so it seemed like a win. However, know that these abilities are basically balancing features of the infusions themselves, given life as features unto themselves for ease of mathiness.

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