General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Human
Str: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 17+2
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Kineticist 1 (Hydrokineticist, Cold Blast, Extended Range), Medium Armor Proficiency, Precise Shot

Medium Armor off the bat helps out combat endurance; Precise Shot is for obvious uses. Extended Range is kind of obnoxious here for sniping purposes, even if the burn bites. At the lower levels I really like the elemental blasts over the damaging ones. If we are stuck in melee, we’ll break out a pair of Spiked Gauntlets. Hands-free but let us threaten.

Kineticist 2 (Shroud of Water, Kinetic Blade)
Kineticist 3 (Feel the Burn +1), Weapon Finesse

Weapon Finesse + Kinetic Blade = Plan B for melee combat. Also Plan B for hitting things. Our damage output in raw melee is going to suck, but what are we doing in raw melee?

Kineticist 4 (Kinetic Healer)
Kineticist 5 (Infusion Specialist – Form, Metakinesis – Empower), Toughness

Form Specialist means we can freely snipe with Extended Range or mix it up in close with the Kinetic Blade. Toughness is pretty much a mandatory trait for a Kineticist, I’d say. Healing is healing, even if you can’t really specialize in it.

Kineticist 6 (Feel the Burn +2, Entangling Infusion)
Kineticist 7 (Expanded Element – Water, Water Blast, Ice Blast), Weapon Focus (Spiked Gauntlet)

Entangling isn’t honestly something I’m overly fond of but the talents available at 6 feel… wonky for the Hydrokineticist. There’s no really /good/ option to pick, honestly. Expanded Element means we can swap to bypass cold resistance and still hammer things and we pick up Ice Blast for more damage. Weapon Focus is more accuracy with Kinetic Blade.

Kineticist 8 (Infusion Specialist – Form, Kinetic Whip)
Kineticist 9 (Feel the Burn +3, Metakinesis – Maximize), Combat Reflexes

With Form taken at 8th, Ice Blast becomes the standard blast, with Cold/Water being used to snipe or melee if we can’t handle/don’t want Burn, or for Cold to simplify our accuracy concerns. Kinetic Whip is interesting because it holds off when it vanishes until the /next/ turn, making it workable to threaten with Combat Reflexes

Kineticist 10 (Chilling Infusion)
Kineticist 11 (Infusion Specialist – Form), Extra Wild Talent – Ride the Blast
Taking Form again, so we can make either long- or melee- range Ice Blasts our standard. And yeah, we’re taking no-save Stagger for emergencies. Ride the Blast is a 120’ freeish-action teleport. Yeah it’s being used. If Extra Wild Talent is taken off the board, we’ll drop Chilling Infusion for Ride the Blast. Ride the Blast is crazy-good.

Kineticist 12 (Shimmering Mirage)
Kineticist 13 (Metakinesis – Quicken), Improved Initiative

This honestly seems like the most boring pair of levels, since you get the (hard to use) Metakinesis but not much else. That said, constant Blur without burning an item slot is cool. Improved Initiative is for obvious reasons. In our ideal world, we want to go right after the caster drops Haste on us and before everybody else.

Kineticist 14 (Infusion Specialist – Form, Wild Talent)
Kineticist 15 (Composite Specialization, Feel the Burn +5, Expanded Element – Aether, Telekinetic Blast, Aetheric Boost), Iron Will

Iron Will is because dying because you decided to go axe-crazy on your allies sucks, but is honestly born because of a lack of obvious better options.

Just some quick numbers—an Aetheric-Boosted Ice Blast, at this level, does 8D6+16+Con Piercing damage and 8D6+16 Cold damage, and costs no burn (2 Ice Blast + 3 Aetheric Boost – 2 Composite Specialization (as there are two different Composite Blasts in play) – 3 Infusion Specialist). That’s an average of 88+Con. We still have one more Infusion Specialization (Form) in play… and this is where it gets nasty. Kinetic Blade means we’re making full attacks… if we’re Hasted, four of them. Each at an average of 88+Con. To me at least, that’s impressive. If we’d rather threaten and make AoOs, we can spend a point of burn or a move action for the Whip.

I’ll leave it to more experienced players to figure out how exactly that falls out on the damage charts. 88+Con for a standard action doesn’t seem great, even at a 120’ range (which we can still do without Burn)—while you have combat endurance for days compared to the Blaster-Caster, he’ll do damage better. But in melee, we can do some real damage.

Kineticist 16 (Self-Telekinesis)
Kineticist 17 (Infusion Specialist – Form, Metakinesis – Double), Extra Wild Talent – Greater Self-Telekinesis

With one last Form, we’re all Ice-Whips all the time. Flying Ice-Whips, because seriously, who doesn’t pick that option or Flame Jet?

Kineticist 18 (Feel The Burn +6, Expanded Defense – Force Ward)
Kineticist 19 (Metakinetic Master – Empowered), Improved Iron Will

So at level 19, this is what we can do:

The target is 120 feet away. We accept three point of Burn (ow), unleashing a Quickened Empowered Aetheric-Boosted Extended Range Ice Blast with Ride the Blast attached. We are now in melee range, and have dealt, on average, 72.5+Con Piercing damage and 72.5 Cold damage. We then activate Kinetic Blade and make a full attack, dealing that same 145 damage on each attack plus three from Feel the Burn, and our attacks are at an extra +4 to hit due to Weapon Focus and Feel the Burn. We get three of those attacks, four if we’re Hasted, and threaten both our immediate area and a 10’ reach with our 145-damage weapon.

DR and Cold Resistances, individually, really aren’t that much of a problem. It’s combined, when you hit a DR/20 and CR 20, that the class really suffers. And of course Cold Immunity chops damage in half outright.

Kineticist 20 (Omnikinesis, Many Throw)

Many Throw is honestly a throw-it-in (get it?) at this level, but it’s decent enough crowd-control. I’m honestly not a fan of Omnikinesis, but it could be helpful.

I can mock up items/damages at various levels if people are interested; I only did the baselines of 15 and 19 because, to me, that's when the class is at its most hilariously awesome.

My thoughts overall:

-I like the idea of Burn being best used for emergencies, but it feels like at higher levels it’s really going to be needed to contribute—especially outside of melee combat. I’m wondering if a feat that gives a limited ‘burn pool’ might be viable. Can be taken once every five levels, gives 2 free Burn per day. Going Burn-lite, like this build does, required outright sacrificing substance picks.
-Kinetic Whip should specify what kind of weapon it’s mimicking. I would assume a Whip… but it’s not clear, and so Weapon Focus (Spiked Gauntlet) would work on it. Which is an awesome image that I am 100% okay with, but just saying. Personally, I’d really like a note that Kinetic Blade/Whip are Weapon Focus-legal targets, if nothing else.
-I would love a feat or talent to let Kinetic Blade/Whip persist longer (a minute, perhaps?)
-I would also love a talent to generically boost accuracy, or class feature that lets Kineticist level = BAB for the purpose of shooting things with ice beams/stabbing somebody with Frosty the SnowSword. Probably a talent is safer.
-This class is awesome. Crazy-awesome in all the best ways.
-I'm going to say it again. Ride the Blast is the coolest thing ever.

The Exchange

i just wanna say i love this class, so many cool things to do


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Precise Shot requires Point-blank Shot to take. Medium Armor can probably wait to later level - at first level with 1d6 x 10 gp you will hardly be able to afford medium armor - you could take Hide but anything else is probably out of your reach.


I wonder if there are Wood and Metal Kineticists in Tian-Xia? Fiber- and Ferrokineticists?


I think that kinetic weapon conundrum could be solved by saying that it just allows making kinetic blast attack without provoking attacks of opportunity or something like that and explicitly represent 'taking form of weapon' as visual effect only.


Cthulhudrew wrote:
I wonder if there are Wood and Metal Kineticists in Tian-Xia?

Metal is already covered as a branch of terrageokineticism.


Drejk wrote:
Metal is already covered as a branch of terrageokineticism.

Ah, dang. Hadn't gotten that far yet. Still... I like the term "ferrokineticist." :D

Shadow Lodge

Can we get a kineticist only precise shot feat? I really believe it cuts a lot of posibilities when you feel forced to play a human when you wanna play a kineticist


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Cthulhudrew wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Metal is already covered as a branch of terrageokineticism.
Ah, dang. Hadn't gotten that far yet. Still... I like the term "ferrokineticist." :D

Wouldn't work. Ferro derives from Latin, and Kineticist names except for terrakinetic (which I get the feeling is becoming geokinetic) are Greek. This is an important enough issue to cause much rustling of jimmies. Ferro also doesn't refer to metal in general, but to the presence of certain types of iron.


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ElementalXX wrote:
Can we get a kineticist only precise shot feat? I really believe it cuts a lot of posibilities when you feel forced to play a human when you wanna play a kineticist

I would consider building in Precise Shot like ability into kinetic blast itself (do not suffer -4 penalty for shooting into melee).


Yea. Having to burn two feats, as is now, is kind of iffy, and even one seems taxy when it's the class's specialty.


Is there any reason they shouldn't get multiple attacks with their blasts? It seems wrong that they don't get to do that.


Judging from its spell level and burn cost Entangling infusion should have prerequisite of having 6th kineticist level. I think it should be also a viable option to telekineticists to represent using telekinesis to immobilize foes.

EDIT: Yup. Both Earth and Water elements list Entangling as 6th level infusion. It's just a missing line form the infusion description.


Azten wrote:
Is there any reason they shouldn't get multiple attacks with their blasts? It seems wrong that they don't get to do that.

Raw damage. The build I posted (at the top of this page) is hitting an average of 88+Con per shot. That'll be duly reduced by DR and elemental resistances, but it's still a /lot/ of bang.

It's kind of a weird middle zone though, where a blaster-caster can out-blast them at one attack but with iteratives they'd slam through a lot more damage.

Drejk wrote:
Precise Shot requires Point-blank Shot to take. Medium Armor can probably wait to later level - at first level with 1d6 x 10 gp you will hardly be able to afford medium armor - you could take Hide but anything else is probably out of your reach.

Whoops. I was remembering it as the other way around.

Ah well, that's easily accommodated for. Medium Armor isn't really necessary anyway, I just feel uncomfortable with light armor as what's ultimately going to be a front-line melee fighter.

Well. A melee fighter if I can fix that accursed accuracy issue at least, still trying to figure out if I'm missing a secret there.

Shadow Lodge

Azten wrote:
Is there any reason they shouldn't get multiple attacks with their blasts? It seems wrong that they don't get to do that.

Because the blast damage (especially once you get composite blasts) is insanely high.

Although, something which allows you to make multiple attacks, at the cost of of lower damage and no added infusions, could be doable.

Silver Crusade

Drejk wrote:
ElementalXX wrote:
Can we get a kineticist only precise shot feat? I really believe it cuts a lot of posibilities when you feel forced to play a human when you wanna play a kineticist
I would consider building in Precise Shot like ability into kinetic blast itself (do not suffer -4 penalty for shooting into melee).

This method would also help prevent people dipping just for Precise Shot.


I just noted that there is contradiction between wild talents and elemental defense. The wild talents claim that elemental defense are treated as spells with spell level equal to half the kineticist level... But elemental defenses in both the feature and description of each element are marked as supernatural, not spell-like abilities.

Paizo Employee Designer

Drejk wrote:
I just noted that there is contradiction between wild talents and elemental defense. The wild talents claim that elemental defense are treated as spells with spell level equal to half the kineticist level... But elemental defenses in both the feature and description of each element are marked as supernatural, not spell-like abilities.

Good catch. I believe the ones you get at level 2 should all be Su, and the ones you pick up later if you want should all be Sp.

Sovereign Court

kestral287 wrote:
Azten wrote:
Is there any reason they shouldn't get multiple attacks with their blasts? It seems wrong that they don't get to do that.

Raw damage. The build I posted (at the top of this page) is hitting an average of 88+Con per shot. That'll be duly reduced by DR and elemental resistances, but it's still a /lot/ of bang.

Your build at the top of the page also uses you getting a -3 burn to composite blast add-ons due to form infusion specialization, something that doesn't work at all.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Drejk wrote:
I just noted that there is contradiction between wild talents and elemental defense. The wild talents claim that elemental defense are treated as spells with spell level equal to half the kineticist level... But elemental defenses in both the feature and description of each element are marked as supernatural, not spell-like abilities.
Good catch. I believe the ones you get at level 2 should all be Su, and the ones you pick up later if you want should all be Sp.

At first I though that I might missed something but the Wild Talent feature refers to 'defense wild talents' and the same term is used in elements description when referring to elemental defense... Probably after we finish playtest there should be some editing done, maybe fixing the wild talent term specifically to refer to selectable abilities and not basic blasts or elemental defenses.


Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:
Wouldn't work. Ferro derives from Latin, and Kineticist names except for terrakinetic (which I get the feeling is becoming geokinetic) are Greek. This is an important enough issue to cause much rustling of jimmies. Ferro also doesn't refer to metal in general, but to the presence of certain types of iron.

All true, but it is still a fairly commonly used (if imprecise) term in sci-fi.

In any event, now that I've had more of a look-see at the Kineticist, I think there is certainly still room for both Wood and Metal, perhaps as archetypes, if not full-blown "sub" types. I really like the idea of a fibrokineticist entangling an enemy in their own clothing ("Say- I really like that tunic. That wouldn't happen to be made from cotton, would it?" ZOIKS!)


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Wanted to hop in and throw my $.02 in,

- Thank you, Mark for the awesome class, this definitely has me excited for Occult Adventures

- Kineticist really needs 4 skill points

- Geokineic sounds awesome :D

Peter


Lukas Stariha wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Azten wrote:
Is there any reason they shouldn't get multiple attacks with their blasts? It seems wrong that they don't get to do that.

Raw damage. The build I posted (at the top of this page) is hitting an average of 88+Con per shot. That'll be duly reduced by DR and elemental resistances, but it's still a /lot/ of bang.

Your build at the top of the page also uses you getting a -3 burn to composite blast add-ons due to form infusion specialization, something that doesn't work at all.

... I could have sworn I saw a Form in Ice somewhere.

Okay, maybe not. That... cuts damage more or less in half. Makes room for Entangled/Staggered to actually be of use, and solves the accuracy concerns against non-cold-immune targets since there's now zero reason to not mainline that. I'll have to rethink things though.

This is why I normally spend a week on a build instead of a few hours. D:


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I don't suppose we can get an archetype that turns you into a elemental outsider at some point? Much like Elemental Savant from 3.5's Complete Arcane.


i like this alot so far.

question though.
The aether type ;gives up damage potential (it only has it's basic blast and later force damage) for the ability to do various tricks like Telekensis (the spell) and mo ving around large weights and such right?

It doesn't seem like that line has any major damage ability outside of turning a prett ygood force blast on. Where as the other stuff get like dual blasts for a lot more damage.

though with aetheric boost on force blast can result in some decent damage -for some serious burn.

I really like that yo ucan move heavier and heavier stuff. Even if you don't get more damage for it. I imagine you could use it for some funny situations like pinning someone down wit ha heavy ass boulder. Or catching a boulder thrown by a giant.

I do think.. that people will quite often lift something up and just drop it in some cases

So knowing that, think it'competes pretty decently? I know I love it; though I 'd rarely ever use the Telekensiss spell stuff.. but I should.

Secondly am I missing any way to mitigate the burn? cause it seems to go up fassstt. I know the move action charge removes 1. After that is it just chosing the specific go to form or substance with infusion specialization?

Feel the Burn question. Does this alway s occur if you have burn?
If not, does it only activate when you get burn? how long does it last then? cause that bonus in damage and to hit isn't too bad.


kestral287 wrote:
Lukas Stariha wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Azten wrote:
Is there any reason they shouldn't get multiple attacks with their blasts? It seems wrong that they don't get to do that.

Raw damage. The build I posted (at the top of this page) is hitting an average of 88+Con per shot. That'll be duly reduced by DR and elemental resistances, but it's still a /lot/ of bang.

Your build at the top of the page also uses you getting a -3 burn to composite blast add-ons due to form infusion specialization, something that doesn't work at all.

... I could have sworn I saw a Form in Ice somewhere.

Okay, maybe not. That... cuts damage more or less in half. Makes room for Entangled/Staggered to actually be of use, and solves the accuracy concerns against non-cold-immune targets since there's now zero reason to not mainline that. I'll have to rethink things though.

So then without taking burn it deals a good chunk less damage per round than a standard Deadly Aim-using volley archer with a magic compound bow, and will hit a lot less often (what with getting one attack at +15 BAB instead of four at 20/15/10/5). The Kineticist still gets some good mobility and senses-related stuff, though, so it has its niche as a scout/sniper. You just need to get Stealth in-class via traits and be human or have positive Intelligence.


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First I love this class.
But I have criticisms on it.
1. Syntax of the play test is terrible. it does not provide enough information when needed and leaves too much room for misinterpretation.
We are in need of clear and concise instructions during the combat phase. We need to know more limits on the abilities, like how many times per day, or does this apply to this, etc.
2. Burn, i hate to say this, but i have a professor that likes pathfinder. He is an English professor. He thought a 2 year old could do better that this, and i have to agree, without all the exaggeration.
3. There need to be tables for damage and elemental combinations. Bring in more tables it will help clarify. Or a chart like Aristotle circle of elements.
4.Geo instead of Terra, full BAB, 4+ int modifier for skill scaling, otherwise this class has no role-playing ability what so ever out of combat.1D10 hit die, 1D8 is way to small and can make the class unplayable for higher levels.
5. Do the blasts need a source? like needing a stream nearby to do anything as a Hydro-kinticist? This class can potentially shape the battlefield so some of the spells like an earth wall for example need to be permanent or until destroyed.
6. name changes
strain instead of burn
kinetic/psyche/continuity talent instead of wild talent.
augment instead of infusion


Is there anything that helps the Kineticist overcome Energy Resistance/Immunity?

Since you can't add weapon enhancements to your blasts and the kineticist has medium BAB, the accuracy of non-touch blasts might be a problem.

Any chance we see an unarmed/unarmored archetype of this class (Preferably one that is simple, not one that trades iconic class)? I would love to make a bender without having to multiclass into Monk.


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So, this class is grade A awesome. My only question is this. What evil alignment was Azula?

*flies away on fire jets*


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Albatoonoe wrote:

So, this class is grade A awesome. My only question is this. What evil alignment was Azula?

*flies away on fire jets*

Waaaay too duplicitous to be Lawful Evil - she never played by any rules other than self-interest. By the end she was certainly chaotic evil, though her machinations were more calculated at the start. I'd say she went from NE to CE.


Mark Seifter wrote:
JamZilla wrote:

It seems like a huge design change to veer away from burn now but I think a pool of points similar to a magus with which to augment would probably have been simpler and less debilitating for the character.

The move action reduction in burn will help so I will report back having actually played the mechanic, this is all based on first impressions for me.

Yeah, give it a whirl and let me know. I'm really interested in hearing what you find out! Remember that, as a starting point, using Con as your casting stat means you have a lot more hit points than the back line usually does before you start burning. I know there have been a lot of times in S&S where our front-line has been pretty low, with Eram whistling in the back with plenty of health to spare in case something got in his face, despite his burn.

The intent is for burn to be pretty meaningful. Like "Oh man, I'm pushing myself. This is going to hurt, but I want it that badly" rather than "Eh, I've got 5 more in my pool. Whatevs, let it burn!" Also, Feel the Burn gives you some incentive to spend at least a little burn. Eram has gotten a lot of leverage out of those to-hit and damage boosts.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Whatevs, let it burn!

Playing catch up on the thread when I came across this and couldn't resist.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's admittedly just theorycrafting at this point, but I feel the Kineticist does not hold up well against the gunslinger.

Kineticst has medium BAB and has the difficult choice of targeting normal AC, or targeting touch but having to put up with spell and energy resistance. Gunslinger has full BAB and targets touch without SR or energy resistance.

Individual kinetic blasts deal more damage, but guns get iterative attacks and rapid shot, and then there's the Dead Shot deed.

Only earth blasts gets the ability to bypass DR/material, but not till level 6, a Gunslinger will likely be buying or crafting bullets of the appropriate material before that. There is no Kineticist equivalent to the Oil of Bless Weapon for that pesky alignment DR. Maybe Hydrokineticists should get a holy/unholy water infusion.

Kineticist has 2 skill points per level, Gunslinger has 4.

Kineticist has d8 HD and will probably be causing himself some nonlethal damage over the course of the day, gunslinger has d10 HD and will likely not be stupid enough to let his gun blow up in his face.

I'll definitely echo that they could use more skill points and possibly either better BAB or have the option of a blast that deals physical damage but targets touch.

I'll have more feedback as soon as I can decide between earth and water as my next PC's element, as it's still my favorite class from the playtest.


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The problem I see is that the penalties from burn are so disastrous that it's less "This is going to hurt, but I want it that badly" and more "I'm only going to accept burn for things that give significant long term benefits". I'd take burn to be able to use elemental form iv all day. I would not take burn to do more fire damage that's likely going to be resisted in some capacity. Chopping off huge amounts of your healthbar needs to come with a pretty massive benefit to be worth it.

Aside, their accuracy kinda sucks. That's fine when you're making touch attacks, but at high levels you're going to start looking at only around ~50% hit rates, which is pretty bad when you're doing relatively small chunks of damage (compared to archers and other martials) that really should be more reliable.


Aratrok wrote:

The problem I see is that the penalties from burn are so disastrous that it's less "This is going to hurt, but I want it that badly" and more "I'm only going to accept burn for things that give significant long term benefits". I'd take burn to be able to use elemental form iv all day. I would not take burn to do more fire damage that's likely going to be resisted in some capacity. Chopping off huge amounts of your healthbar needs to come with a pretty massive benefit to be worth it.

Aside, their accuracy kinda sucks. That's fine when you're making touch attacks, but at high levels you're going to start looking at only around ~50% hit rates, which is pretty bad when you're doing relatively small chunks of damage (compared to archers and other martials) that really should be more reliable.

If accuracy is an issue, and based off of my theorycraft build above I do believe it is, perhaps full BAB would help?

As for burn, maybe drop them to d6 hit die and give them a mana pool.


Probably, yeah. If burn dealing large chunks of unrecoverable damage is a mechanic that's going to stick around, a larger hit die would make that a lot more bearable as well.

When hitpoints are your primary resource... you should probably start with more hitpoints than other people get, unless the goal is to have a very fragile but very powerful class.

Dark Archive

So one thing I was thinking about was that the elemental kinetisict do not get any resistance to the element that they control. Why is that?


Aratrok wrote:

Probably, yeah. If burn dealing large chunks of unrecoverable damage is a mechanic that's going to stick around, a larger hit die would make that a lot more bearable as well.

When hitpoints are your primary resource... you should probably start with more hitpoints than other people get, unless the goal is to have a very fragile but very powerful class.

If mana is not an option I would agree. D10 or D12 is in order if we are burning HP. I would lean towards 12.

Grand Lodge

This is the most excited i have been for a class in a long time. My thoughts are all over the place, but I put some of them down to hear peoples feedback.

Quite a lot of this seems to stem from the warlock class form 3.5. There currently isn’t a class out there that can through around blasts of energy all day every day, ala eldritch blast, and this seems to fill that niche. The Burn mechanic resembles the wilder ability to get more out of their psychic powers by taxing themselves, and also allows for abilities that can’t be balance with at will use, giving the class some expendable resources. Flavour wise, I’m feeling a lot of Avatar: the last Airbender. Especially in abilities like earths Kinetic Cover, a classic Earth bender move of throwing up an earth barrier to block attacks. (Incidentally, it would be great to get this as an immediate action at some point. Maybe with a big burn level to balance it. I love the flavour of blocking a disintegrate spell by throwing up an earth barrier. )

Before I go into the next part, I want to make it very clear that I absolutely love this class. It oozes flavour from every pore, and the huge community response is evidence that this is an idea people are very keen for. I adore this class, and can easily see myself playing multiple different characters with different elements . The following is feedback targeting the mechanical aspects of the class, with the understanding that it is entirely theoretical, and based on a class with no feat/magic items support, which can make all the difference (see slashing/fencing grace, Deadly aim, power attack etc).

Skills: 2 skills is low. Not sure if that is a huge issue, would be interested to see what the play experience is. In terms of the skill list, the oracle gets a lot more skills for its mystery which is (arguably) a smaller part of the oracle class than the element choice is for the kineticist. I would have thought 4-6 additional skills would nicely flesh out the skills list, maybe like what follows:

Force- Heal, Slight of hand, Knowledge (Engineering), disable device (maybe, would be powerful)

Fire: Acrobatics, perform, intimidate, ride, Escape artist

Water: Heal, diplomacy, swim (duh), perception,

Air: Fly, Bluff, Acrobatics, stealth,

Earth: Appraise, Sense motive, climb, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography)

The social skills especially reflect the fundamental nature of the elements (again, avatar flavour). Fire has intimidate, big and brash, effective but with disregard to the long term consequences. Earth with sense motive, quiet and contemplative. Air with bluff, fey and prone to whimsy and flights of fancy. Water, seeking balance and harmony, would tend towards diplomacy. And force gets… handle animal? Well I guess they can literally pick them up with their minds if that counts.

Elements: As an avatar fan, I would be keen to see water get in on the healing action. Not a big deal, but I think it would be cool.

Burn: I think this mechanic works okay. Im not sure about having many different types of damage is great from a book-keeping angle. Maybe just flat out dropping your current and maximum health by a slightly smaller amount would be easier?

I also second the Geo-kineticist. Geomancy and geomancers are more common terms than terramancy, and terra has a whole bunch of other stuff tied up into it. Geo is simpler and more distinct from telekinesis than terrakinesis is.

Ideas- Magic item like amulet of mighty fists- more expensive than the magic weapon, but gives the class somewhere to sink gold and improve that mid/late game accuracy fall-off.

Maybe an alternative to Deadly aim. Take a damage penalty to increase accuracy? Reduce the damage dice maybe? If all you get each round is a single ranged attack, it really sucks to miss. It can be massively disheartening to players, and damage their engagement with the combat if all they do is “roll to hit. Miss. Next”.

Looking at the statistics already posted regarding damage/accuracy over the level progression, the touch attacks are somewhat binary (touch AC doesn’t change much, but resistances/immunity becomes more common) leading to them being either entirely on or off. Playing and DMing blasters who fully specced into one element or another, this isn’t a new feature, entirely unique to the class. But sorcerers that go full fire explosion awesomeness for their blasting can always fall back onto buffing the team, de-buffing the enemy or such. The keneticist doesn’t have that grab bag of other abilities, especially not at mid/low levels. As a fire kineticist, if they are immune to fire, you have extremely limited options.

An option to combat this in a nonlinear way might be some sort of channelled ability that lets you concentrate each round to boost your team in some way, kinda of like aspect of the badger. Grant bonus to AC for earth, dodge bonus for air, movement speed for fire, swim speed for water etc. This class doesn’t have many options outside of direct combat, so opening that up would make being poorly suited to particular enemies less crushing. At higher levels, it could grant a more impressive ability: Haste for fire, fly speed for Air, DR for Earth, fast healing for water (Again, this is Avatar flavour), Deflect arrows for Force.

With the non-touch attacks, they scale better, sort of, as creature don’t tend to have immunity to weapon damage. Earth can get past most DR with their metal power, but apart from that, the class is in trouble. They can’t make use of golf bagging like fighters, weapon blanches or arrow heads of different metals like a ranger can. They can’t prepare different element types like a wizard, or smite like a paladin. They can’t even benefit from spells like versatile weapon to overcome the DR. whilst they do deal strong damage, I am not sure how well this works in combatting the problem.

An example- In a recent PFS scenario, the enemies have hardness 10. This has proven, if the forums/product review is anything to go by, to be a massive issue for many players. Hardness is very difficult to overcome, and the size of the reduction was more than halving people’s damage in many cases. Without the adaptability of golf bagging/alchemical items/team buff spells, I worry that the Kineticist could have the same problem with every creature that has DR/hardness.

At the end of the day, this class is focused on the elemental blast as the warlock was focused on eldritch blast. Eldritch blast was hardly overpowering in 3.5, and always targeted touch AC with damage only preventable by spell resistance (with an infusion that entirely bypassed SR if that was a problem). Given this, I don’t think it would be unreasonable to give the non-touch attack powers some way to boost their accuracy. The rest of the warlocks powers were, as with the kineticist, broken up into either blast modifying the blast, or random utility stuff.

The utility stuff was very cool, with things like at will invisibility, flight, swarm form and such. Even simple ones that gave flat bonuses to skills. It would be great to get some more non-blast based powers that let the class still do something cool when the blast wasn’t viable. If you have a cool plan B, then having Plan A not work is a lesser issue. So my conclusion at the end of this poorly though through (and poorly spelled) rant is that I think the problems with blast accuracy/damage/immunity etc would be less of a big deal if the class has a cool plan b option awarded by default to allow you to still feel awesome, even when you’re a flame thrower up against a fire elemental, without just changing the element of your blast.

Thanks for reading to the end, you brave/foolish few who bothered, and I look forward to trying this class out this weekend!


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On the issue of the energy resistance/immunity, what about poaching the Unnatural Cold/Unearthly Cold ability from the Winter Witch prestige class? Making it an option for the elemental kineticists seems kind of thematic for them.


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There is some major problems with the unfinished and under-realized themes and characterization that is meant to define the Kineticist Class. Also some deeply ingrained contextual issues.

Exposition of the Kineticist Class is not supported or made evident through its class abilities:

"Delve into the mystery on their own to control their gifts." Making little sense as the Kineticist has control of his (or her) gifts from 1st level.

Also The player makes the choice of what elemental focus their character will possess. And the Burn ability, although slightly self-destructive is in complete control of the player.

Also there isn't any 'mystery' a player of a Kineticist knows exactly what powers he (or she) will receive as levels of experience are attained.

The Kineticist is all about control and is pretty straightforward, no X-file case to found here.

The Kineticist is not an 'occult-themed class":

The theme of the Kineticist has obvious influences: The main characters in Stephen King's Carrie and Firestarter novels. However, the Kineticist will not exist in our world (with supernatural abilities being a rare thing), but in high fantasy worlds like Golarion and others where spell-casters, shape shifters and strange races are often the norm.

The Kineticist is unfairly and wrongly created without any viable context.

There are hints that the Kineticist is a occult outsider character being "quite different from his family and friends" with no evidence whatsoever to support this.

Making associated tropes near impossible to employ as there are no roleplaying hooks present.

Also Elemental blasts is a common ability among spell-casters. And the Burn ability is far from unique. A similar ability is an alternative class feature of the Sorcerer class. The supernatural ability Hidden Reserve (Golarion Campaign Setting, p.50).

Tome of Magic set a new benchmark in design of class themes:

D&D 3.5 Tome of Magic's Binder class is a good example to follow. An occult themed character class. Also the class is described as an outsider character with roleplaying hooks present, detailed with the use of effective exposition.

The Binder's pact magic has it's own philosophy and it's practice is mostly condemned by other spell-casters and feared by others. And with good reason, the Vestiges (that the Binders make a pact with) possess dark themes and dark stories and it's powerful influence can have dire consequences.

The Kineticist could be so much more than a class that just blasts things.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Building my hydrokineticist, I saw use Magic Device and the list of class skills, and that got me thinking....

What if a kineticist could use items containing spells with the [Fire],[Cold],[Acid],[Electricity], or [Force] descriptors without needing a UMD check if the descriptor matches her element?


I've noticed that the simple blast for fire and water are the only elements that target touch armor, is this because they are the only ones that deal elemental damage? If so, will there be a way (besides WPN FOC and PB Shot) to increase the chances of hitting? From experience, I have noticed that MED BAB ranged attacks targeting normal AC have a stunted chance to hit when the character's main stat is not DEX.

Also, for WPN FOC, would the blast be considered a weapon type?


as an after thought; can the KIN multiclass or take armor proficiency and wear heavy armor? there is no wording to limit them from it since their abilities are SP and SU


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What if:

1-The kineticist had a reserve (like Arcane Pool) that could be used to fuel his powers without burn. 1/2+Con mod. points/day to use his most interesting powers without consuming his health seems good.

2-The wild talents were divided into 2 sub categories: utility and attack. Gaining them separately he would not be penalized in combat for adding flavor. Also, as said before, these utility talents could add to some skills.

3-The kineticist could add emotional or thought component to his blast to overcome alignment DR.

4-The tremorsense talent gave darkvision 30' passively for anything touching the ground. To sense other things, move action still needed.

5-The aether path had some precognition powers, sensing what is about to happen through auras and intentions.

Things to remember:

The use limited talents stand in balance with powerful spells. Classes built around the same frame (d8 hd, 3/4 bab) like the cleric, druid, oracle, shaman, etc... can use those without penalty, with increasingly ease. That said, I think the wild talents could use a boost at higher levels to make some earthshaking events.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I love the idea of this class, and I have some opinions I would like to share after over looking it.

1) Skills should 4+Int.

2) More boosts to accuracy.

3) With investment, there should be ways to lessen the amount/time burn effects you.

4) Force damage. Some way, some how.


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Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

I think a extra wild talent feat would be awesome

I would like to see additional elements like life(positive energy), wood/plant, animal/vermin, death(negative energy), metal, gravity, time, light, and darkness.

I agree that you should get 4-6 class skills from your elemental choice.

Each element should get a physical blast and an energy blast(touch) built into the class. So Aether would get force(d4) and earth would get acid. Maybe fire should get magma blast for it's physical blast.

I think Kineticist's blast should be supernatural.


Dragon78 wrote:

I think a extra wild talent feat would be awesome

I would like to see additional elements like life(positive energy), wood/plant, animal/vermin, death(negative energy), metal, gravity, time, light, and darkness.

I agree that you should get 4-6 class skills from your elemental choice.

Each element should get a physical blast and an energy blast(touch) built into the class. So Aether would get force(d4) and earth would get acid. Maybe fire should get magma blast for it's physical blast.

I think Kineticist's blast should be supernatural.

Magma/Lava is molten earth, so it shouldn't be a fire blast at all. It's perfectly fine where it is as an Earth/Fire combination blast.

Fire, is the only blast that truly cannot have a physical blast because Fire is energy. Every other element can be used to pierce, cut, or bludgeon people (including air), but Fire only burns.


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I haven't had a chance to play the class yet, but first look makes me feel that it would, unfortunately, get repetitive. I LOVE the feel and flavor of it, but it's lacking in utility. It's great to have a reusable blast, but it seems very linear in that you do one thing well. You can pick up a few abilities here and there, but due to lack of options, perhaps (given the level and elemental requirements for the various talents). The class is very reminiscent of the Warlock, but that class had a number of utility or control powers outside of just the blasting.

Basically, this looks like a class I'd love to make and then play for a session or two, but would tire with due to not levelling fast enough to keep new abilities coming in.

I love the at-will nature of the character, the con-based 'casting', and the idea of the burn mechanic (though I'd need to see it in play to check its balance, vs. say... 1/2 level nonlethal or whatnot). I think it looks like it needs a bit more flexibility/variety though.


Sandstorm: "If you hit, the target suffers an amount of piercing and slashing damage equal to 2d6+2 + your Constitution modifier. This damage increases by 2d6+2 for every 2 kineticist levels you possess beyond 1st."

The way I read this, it does 2d6+2 (plus 2d6+2 per 2 beyond first) of EACH piercing and slashing, for a total of double every other composite blast in damage. Obviously this is intended to be either an 'or', or to be one damage source that bypasses both P and S DR types, but the wording doesn't clearly say that to me.


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WARNING: Wall of text incoming!

First off, I really like the kineticist. It is easily the most liked class from this playtest (for me; and if I look at the size of the different threads it seems I'm not the only one).

After building a few characters, and comparing to some other class builds I have a few remarks (note that most of these are already posted in this thread from what I've read):

- Another vote for 'Geo' instead of 'Terra' (Which could be reserved for a wood themed elemental focus)
- Skill ranks: 2+INT for a class that will (in practice) dump int is really not much. Even more so for a class that is really really combat focused. I can only hope that the fighter will be handled in Unchained but I'd advocate for at least an increase to 4+INT/ 6+INT might also be possible but might step on other classes' toes too much.
- Energy resistance/Immunity, Damage reduction and Wild Blasts: One problem I foresee is the inability to pierce resistance/immunity for elemental damage wild blasts. On other accounts, damage reduction might be a problem. True a kinetisist can diversify his damage types a bit but only starting at lvl7 and even then it leaves a lot to be desired. My suggestions are as follows:
* All elemental foci have two wild blasts available; one elemental in nature, a second physical in nature. Elementals would have fire/electricity/cold/acid/force damage and would be ranged touch attacks. Physical blasts would be normal ranged attacks and have piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage. In addition, the kineticist automatically learns both blasts. This way any type of kineticist can decide to specialise in his physical blast or his elemental one but has the other as backup in case he finds himself in combat with a resisting opponent.
* Standardize wild blast damage (physical ones d8+CON mod, elemental ones (w/o force) d6+1/2 CON mod, force d4+1/2 CON mod; all increase by 1 die every 2 lvls)
- Burn mechanic: I feel like it's too much of a detriment (for not enough gain) to actually use burn in combat. Perhaps more gains (great active effects, more passive effects) from burn can be included? Also a way to recover from burn (in a limited fashion) after a combat might give more incentive to actually use burn more regularly.

Below are some ideas on how to improve the kinetist/fix the above problems:

CALM THE STORM
Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 2; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 3th
As a full round action you can reduce your current burn by one point. The nonlethal damage resulting from this removed burn point can then be healed normally. This talent can be used a number of times each day equal to your 3 + CON modifier.

PIERCING ELEMENT
Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 4; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 7th
You automatically reduce any energy resistance of the target by 10 with your wild blast or kinetic fist or kinetic blade.

GREATER PIERCING ELEMENT
Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 6; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 11th, PIERCING ELEMENT
As piercing element but you automatically reduce energy resistance by 20. Alternatively, a creature or object targeted with energy immunity instead counts as having energy resistance 40. This resistance is not further reduced by this talent.

IGNITE THE INNER INFERNO
Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 2; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 3th
By accepting one burn, as a swift action you can empower your kinetic abilities. For one minute your wild blast as well as any kinetic fist or kinetic blade talent receives a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. At 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter this bonus is increased by one (to a maximum of +5 at lvl 15).

ELEMENTAL WRATH
Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 2; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 3th
You unleash the power of your inner soul. By accepting any number of burn (limited by your normal maximum each round) as a swift action, you temporarily gain a +2 morale bonus to constitution for each burn accepted (in effect the temporary HP gained from this CON bonus cancels the nonlethal damage inflicted by the burn). In addition, for each burn accepted you also gain a +1 to every damage die rolled for your wild blast, kinetic fists or kinetic blade. These benefits last for a number of rounds equal to the number of burn accepted. It is possible to increase your wrath over several turns, adding more and more burn, both increasing the effect in power and duration. At the end of the duration of the effect, you lose the morale bonus to constitution and suffer the full consequences of the burn accepted.

These are only a few ideas for new talents (perhaps some deserve to be built in the class itself).

*EDIT: changed a few wording issues*

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