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I was just thinking it would be nice for my gnome fighter to have a cantrip to be a bit different. He won’t be MC so his proficiency won’t increase so attack ones are pretty much out. What cantrips would you recommend for a non caster?

I suppose I should also open this up if someone did take a MC just to get a cantrip but would not follow up with advancing the proficiency.

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Xenocrat wrote:

The cantrip damage maximizer!

1. Produce Flame cantrip
2. Burn It! goblin ancestry feat (half spell level status bonus to fire damage)
3. Rogue Dedication MC feat
4. Basic Trickery MC feat - select whatever, but probably minor magic utility cantrips
5. Sneak Attacker MC feat
6. Advanced Trickery MC feat - select magical trickster

Always some extra fire damage on your Produce Flame, plus sneak attack damage when it qualifies.

At 6th level with 1d6 sneak attack your cantrip is doing 3d4+4+3+1d6 (avg 18, 56% increase over basic cantrip) on a flat footed opponent (and you can flank in melee with Produce Flame), 14.5 without sneak attack (31.8% increase).

Next level you get expert spell proficiency and another 1d4+1 fire damage, average 21.5 (72% increase over basic) on a sneak attack or 18 (28.6%). That's your sweet spot for being ahead of the curve, get those enemies flat foo...

You could also do it as goblin bard getting adopted into human, but that would take until 7th level. Which is, admittedly, dumber and maybe better for this thread.

Does heighten still raise the effective spell level for purposes of the ‘Burn it’ Ancestry?

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Lets say at level 1, and breakthrough levels (weapon specialization comes to mind) of 7th and 15th?

Sustained DPR?
Burst DPR (not counting consumables).*Well spells are allowed for burst purposes, but assume these are self-buffs. And assume only 1 round (3 actions) unless these are hour long durations or longer to buff.

*I would expect by the very nature of the inherent limitations of less hp, less armor, and spell slots a caster nova would be higher, but perhaps that is not the devs intent with 2E. Or is it?

Got any builds?

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MaxAstro wrote:

Yeah, Rangers are absolute DPS machines if they want to be.

Although I do appreciate that there is a fair bit of support for single-shot crossbow builds also; Rangers have arguably the highest reliable single-hit damage in the game and it requires them to use a crossbow or other Reload weapon.

Just with a relatively trivial amount of optimization, a Ranger with a heavy crossbow using Perfect Shot can do 4d12+2 (crossbow ace) + 3d8 (precision) + 3d6 (elemental) = ninety-two damage with a single shot.

Would this not also work with a melee build? With up to 6 attacks?

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Ravingdork wrote:

After reading the P2E playtest blogs, it was my understanding that rarity was going to be an organization tool for GMs to more easily control what enters their game. There wasn't going to be any hard rules or mechanics behind it. Simply a bunch of tags and the GM saying "No rare items without checking with me first" or "Since this is an oriental campaign, all items traditionally considered oriental have a Common rating. More western armor and weapons have an Uncommon rating and require my blessing in this campaign." That sort of thing.

Except that's not what happened. Everywhere I look, I'm seeing hard rules that state I can't get this or that Uncommon item, or rather, that I'm limited to Common items and spells whenever I'm able to make a selection.

Uncommon items are not even made harder to get. They simply can't be got. Period.

This might not be such a big issue ...
What do you guys think? Does it feel suffocating to you too?

I would have adapted a different approach.

Simply state: if a spell/item/ability/feat has a ‘U’ the player and GM should be aware that it has to potential to unbalance the core assumptions of the game and they may wish to consider whether it is allowed. If it has the ‘R’ tag we find that said ability/item/spell can easily and frequently overshadows other players or trivializes challenges / encounters even more so than a ‘U’ ability and one should very carefully consider if this is something they want in a campaign.

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Well for my part once I tried the playtest and had a subpar experience I canceled all my subs except for Adventure Paths.

In exchange I bought the Core PDF and hoped for fixes.

Play-wise I am trying to decipher PF2’s “adventuring day” meta. With many abilities being seeming to have durations up to 1 hr...and then with a 24 hour cooldown, it seems they want a 10 minute to 1 hr dungeon raid? Not sure.

Once we get through a few adventures we’ll have a better feel. Still hopeful.

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HammerJack wrote:
So, a natural 20 increases the level of success by one step. A miss that is a natural 20 becomes a hit. A hit that is a natural 20, bit not 10 over the AC, still becomes a critical hit. With a keen weapon, a hit that is a natural 19 becomes a critical hit.

Oooh! That makes sense, thanks!

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I thought a critical success was 10 over the target.
Yet on p. 584 there is a Keen rune that increases makes a natural 19 a does this interact?

A bit confused and learning 2e here. Thanks!

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From: Core rulebook P.289 Sorcerer class kit.

"...Weapons dagger, slingshot with 20
sling bullets..."

At first I was like "finally!" and then I realized it wasn't anywhere else in the book.

This is supposed to be a standard sling correct?

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Just started reading the focus section so I probably missed it.
There are a variety of abilities with focus 4, 5, 6 or more.

If the max you can have is 3 (and as far as I can see by the rules, regardless of how many sources of focus, you only have 1 pool so max is 3) how do you use the higher focus abilities?


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Ashcroffte wrote:
Thanks. Still trying to figure out the shorthands. That makes a lot more sense. Still seems like a great cantrip, and the best daze in any edition.

I'll take a saving throw based auto-hit vs. 'make an attack roll' just about any day of the week.

I agree this Daze is far superior especially with the scaling. No reason not to keep using this for most of your career. Well that is until the Save and Die anyway spells come online (if there are any in 2E).

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I have been reading various threads.

Is this what’s going on?
PF1E is going away.
All APs, adventures, modules, Society content will be 2E?
No new 1E content of any kind will be created.

Tyrant’s Grasp is the final PF1 AP.

Or is it something else?

Just trying to get up to date...


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deuxhero wrote:
Deliberate. You're meant to get it either via discipline substitution (either via trait or martial tradition), archetype or feats.

Aha! Did a global search of the PDF and finally found it. Sheesh...unlike the Book of Nine Swords, Dreamscarred never created a matrix of which class gets what.

So you need to be an Empyreal Guardian (Pg. 158, PoW)

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Question: I thought this was a Warder discipline...nope. Then I looked at Stalker and Warlord. Nope. That is all three classes, none of which have access.

Which class from the main book has access to this? Was there errata? Or is it an archetype?

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That's basically it.

I'm still new to Path of War so I may have missed it.

I know there's Stalker, Warder, Warlord, etc...just wondering if there was a monkish one? I was trying to work with a core or unchained one but then realized he'd be limited by the Martial Training feats. Which are not terrible but a full initiator class would be nice to look at to compare :)


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Okay these are choices by another player so its mostly fixed:
Race: Oread
Stats: 20 point buy,
Class: Warpriest of Irori
Level: 7

Sacred weapon: Unarmed.

Single class, no class dipping please.

This is a home game and the GM allowed the player to get ‘agile’ on gloves so she can use her dex to damage.
Also every 4 level (4, 8, 12j we get a bonus feat.

The game is 75% combat and she feels unfortunately that is unable to keep up. We have a melee optimized melee using 3rd party material (path of war and psionics from dreamscarred). His damage output is around 150 DPR. My gf and I play kineticists so we do a good job as far as being skirmishers, though since we are doing a lot of plane travelling, my gf being all-in fire is also running into issues, but thats will be a separate thread.

Personally I am of the ‘power up, not nerf down’ mind so I was looking for some advice to beef the warpriest a bit.
I already have a few ideas but definitely could use more. :). I prefer paizo content but if anyone is familiar with Dreamscarred that’s open.
Also the warpriest is not looking for something complex, if possible. So minimum of variable bonuses.


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Kineticists are actually hybrid skirmishers with some utility.
Medium floor and ceiling which makes them pretty fun to play. And of course they keep going and going. You will not be top tier DPS, but you will be respectable.

I would suggest a Earth kineticist. They can throw rocks all day. You do not get a touch attack, but you get some of the best defense (DR/Adamantine) and utility (Earth Glide!) powers available. Viable as an melee (Whip plus Kinetic Form means 20 foot threaten area including adjacent) or pure blasting (metal composite is pretty good).

To increase your blasting I strongly suggest Gathlain. Small race, fey, flight, and hands down one of the premier kineticist racial class bonus: 1/6 per level extra burn reduction when you gather power. This means at level 7 when you get your composite you can use it all day if you use your move action to gather power and empower at the same time. Take the alternate race trait to reduce your stat penalties at expense of movement.

Likewise a double-fire based gathlain kineticist can composite blue-flame and fan of flames every round.

Again is this as good as an optimzed blaster arcane or archer? No. But you are the Energizer bunny.

Simce you are 9th level, assuming a 20 point buy:
Str 8 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10 (gath racial +2 dex, +2 cha included, con penalty dropped with alt race trait)
+2 dex and +2 con (20 dex and 22 con) with 3 burn.

Earth Kineticist
Feats: PBS, Precise, Iron Will, Weapon Finesse*, Improved Init.
Key Talents: Extended Range, Earth Climb (needed for Earth Glide)
Key gear: belt of physical might (dex/con)
Standard attack: Metal Blast, Empowered
Atk: +1 siz +6 bab +3 ele overf +1 pbs +5 dex = +16 vs AC
Dam: 10d6+10 (base) +6 con +6 ele overf +1 pbs x 1.5 = 10d6+23 x 1.5
-1/-1 if > 30 ft.
*can drop if you want to be range only and not acquire kinetic blade/whip.

This leaves a lot open, you can go whip/form for a great area melee build, you can pick up entangling infusion and eventually Wall if you want to be more control focused. Impale, deadly earth(later) for area option. Even opt for a summoned elemental with spark of life.

Burn up to your Elemental Overflow in the morning and reap the bonus all day long.

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Thanks for the advice I am going to present the options to my friend.

I agree with the thoughts on Precise Shot. Every time I delay it or not take it all, it's come up and bitten me on the behind. There are many many dungeons where it's choke-points and you always have soft cover in the way.

I do think Fan of Flames is underrated. The trick with a cone is to start it at the 5 foot square above the tank that is in front of you.

That way the spread hits the foes and not your ally in front. And instead of making attack rolls the GM makes saves, which is something I always prefer.

Yes 15 foot cone is a bit close. But it is one of the few at-will AoE options that any class has at start. And it's a long wait till Eruption at level 7.

Plus I'm picking Gathlain for the race. The variant without the con penalty. Fly, even clumsy at level 1 is the bomb. It gives the Pyro another escape button. And getting an effective supercharge 5 levels earlier will mean she can throw a composite every round. Which will be great until the devils and fire elementals show up.

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Magda Luckbender wrote:
ekibus wrote:
So curious what would be the stats for your classic Magda, that's always a struggle for me with a cleric

Directly out of the original Reach Cleric guide.

Here's Magda Luckbender's character sheet, which I've not touched for years, not since she reached 11th level via SLOW PFS advancement. Perhaps I'll bring her out of retirement some time for an 11th level adventure.


Is variant channeling PFS Legal?

Last time I checked. However PFS clerics must pick a deity. So that’s Horus, Ra, Iomedae, or Olheon? I am guessing Dispater is out. None of these deities have both Animal and Plant domains so not sure how the Daze Enlarged Axebeak Cleric build works...but I am a bit fuzzy on all the rules so I am probably missing something.

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Magda Luckbender wrote:

One other note: I once joined a highly optimized group for high level play. I was shocked to learn that they all considered clerics only useful as healbots. They had never seen an effective combat-optimized cleric and didn't know it was possible. They thought all clerics are just for healing.

I ...n mount trick. Paired Opportunists.

* Feather domain gives flight via the Fly spell. The huge flightless axe beak bird takes to the air again, in defiance of Physics! Thank you Spell Sharing.

* Clericzilla buffs also work via Spell Sharing. So...

Please which diety has Animal, Plant domains and rulership in their portfolio for variant channel?

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Well it’s been another year and then some. And the only changes to immunities I am aware off are the ones the game devs took away from player characters (clear spindle I am looking at you) LOL.

So anything for the low defense (melee not a good idea) pyro till level 7 (assuming he gives up blue flame)? Is there a new utility he can spam for support?


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All we know is that this will be Pathfinder in space.
However while the GM may use Starfinder, the PCs may not. We will be Golarian primitives on a spaceship. Androids, etc. are not allowed to players. Know(tech) is banned unless we take the technologist feat. No one can start with Know(tech) ranks at start in any case.

My friend is 100% new to d20/Pathfinder and she wanted a simple ranged fire-focused damage dealer.

Her only experience with fantasy rpgs is WoW. She didn't like vancian spellcasting.

I suggested a Kineticist.

20 point buy, 2 traits, paizo official sources allowed.
3rd level, standard wealth by level.

Looking for some build advice.
So far the only other character is a cleric.
Note that for myself I was thinking of maybe a utility kineticist (aether) since she will be focused on damage. I can go with a Tier 1 (wizard) but prefer the swiss-army knife with 5 blades I can use all day instead of the 300 in a book version. :) But that's for me, I'm looking for help with her build.

So far I've come up with:
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (may not be needed? since it is vs. touch? Spell Pen instead?)
Infusions: Fan of Flames
Fire blast (basic).

Suggestions and thanks!

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I like Kineticists a great deal so my opinion is biased.

Will you ever be king of damage? No.
Will you be good at damage? Yes.
Will you have a swiss-army knife of tricks you can do all day in the early to mid-levels? Maybe (depends on which elements such as Telekinesis really shine).

Note that this applies to a normal game...if the game is heavy combat then kineticists cannot keep up because of the lack of attack bonuses.

His gear upgrade path was pretty simple. Magic was very hard to get in the game and he was basically below low wealth until he hit level 6.
Light armor first
Belt of Con came after.
Then everything else.

Damage spikes come at L5-free empower and L7-take Expanded Metakinesis (Furious Spell)

My build that I used for Dragon's Demand (L1-L7)

Hobbes, aka 'Mr. Handy' Kineticist (Aether aka TK):

1-PBS, Precise Shot
3-Iron Will
5-Weapon Finesse (never ended up using)
6-(human bonus feat): Extra Wild Talent Whispers (rabbit for the init)
7-Expanded Metakinesis (Furious Spell)*

*A MUST-have.

Vagabond Child (get disable device as class skill with +1)
Indomitable Faith (+1 Will saves)

Talents by level
1-Basic TK, TK Blast, Extended Range
2-TK Finesse (disarm traps/open doors at range)
3-TK Blade (never used)
4-TK Haul (ferry party members over pits, hazardous areas, carry loot, feed guard dogs from far away, drop alchemical items on targets/square, drop heavy stuff on foes-the last is more cosmetic and RP since dropping rocks does not do much damage in pathfinder). This is before anyone gets flight, unless they have racial flight.
5-Spindle (two target attack, limited utility but could not find anything else to fit here)
6-TK Invis. Now he's also a very very good scout.
7-Foe throw. (never got to use). Composite Blast (never used)

Mithral Chain Shirt
Belt of Con +2
Cloak of Resistance +1
Pale Green Ioun Stone, cracked

MW Thieves' Tools
Deck of Cards*
Bag of Marbles*
Bag of 100 copper pieces*

*Used because his primary attack is basically a railgun for flavor.
-"You're life isn't worth 1 copper!"
-"Never bet against the queen of hearts!"

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stringbeanbuddy wrote:

So since I didn't see a thread for this yet...

Okay we just played and had our second wipe.

Name: Chef
Race: Human (Chelaxian)
Class: Unchained Rogue (Improvised Sap Adept)
Alignment: CG
Origin: Kintargo, noble from a minor house. In Kintargo to follow his dreams of being a master of culinary arts. Wields a masterwork chefs spoon in combat.

Adventure: In Hell's Bright Shadow
Location: Hokum's Phantasmagorium (sp?)
Cause of Death: Negative channeled.


Lesay Elven Witch (Slumber)
Lesuule Half-elven Shaman (Heavens)
Ramiel Elven Bard (Court Bard)
Reginald Human Vigilante (Avenger)
Chef Human Rogue (Unchained Sap Adept)

Allowed sourcebooks: Core plus 2 others of player's choice.

My character was already suffering from PTSD after a previous attempt to brave an enemy stronghold ended in abject failure. He was just beginning regain his confidence when fate intervened...

The Actual Death: Upon deciphering a possible cache of former rebel hideout, the party decided to investigate. After disguising the entire party as homeless hoboes trying to find a shelter for the night, the party broke in. Attempts to bypass the front door were met with failure as all other access points were heavily boarded/bricked over or barricaded.

After one close fight with undead apes, the party became aware of sounds from the east. Rested up the party then opened the door and ran into a massive swarm of zombies plus four elite guards armed with bows and blades.

In the first round our Vigilante was dropped by a hold spell of some sort. My rogue dashed to cover the front line and gave him cover, knocking out a guard and taking out a zombie. Meanwhile the bard proceeded to denigrate the foes reducing their accuracy and then dropping a timely grease spell which had four of the zombies flailing and attacking from the ground. Our witch worked on putting the guards to sleep and our shaman provided support and healing.

The fight appeared to be going well after the first round and then the leader who proved to be a cleric made his appearance. He had cast the hold previously and proceeded to negative channel.

Upon advice from the party, my rogue dashed ahead (tumbling) braving AoO's from zombie and guards alike and attempted to take out the boss. Unfortunately fate was again not on the party's side. Chef's attack was a complete miss and then the evil priest responded in kind, only effectively. The evil cleric then also popped a spiritual hammer and then negative channeled several more times, even harming his own side.

My rogue rallied and again attempted to strike the cleric, again failing completely and was then dropped by the second channel. (Basically he rolled 2 1's on attacking, made save against a weak channel and rolled another 1 against a channel that the GM rolled almost max on).

The vigilante did break the hold and took out several of the mooks, sustaining just enough injuries that a channel dropped him as well.

The party did encourage one guard to run. However the party chose foolishly to hold their ground. Even after our biggest healing spells, all that happened was that Chef who was dropped by one channel, was conscious to be taken out by the next one. The bard, heavily wounded himself, upon advice from the rest of the group when we saw how things were doing, wisely withdrew. As for the rest of the party they are all either eaten, captured for sacrifice, or outright killed by the evil priest and his remaining horde of zombies.

After action report, Priest of Asmodeus:

Title: Acolyte of Asmodeus.
Duty Station: Hokum's Phantasmagorium
Subject: After action report.

During the mid-evening hours of the watch just passed. Our patrol became aware of several would-be infidels openly defying the just and righteous rule of Lord Asmodeus, Long May He Reign. While they first appeared to be typical indigent homeless* they utilized and possessed diverse combat abilities both mundane and magical.

However our stout guard proved to be more than a match. After several feeble attempts at ensorcellment to my guard and outright physical attacks, I responded with a modest benediction from Our Lord Asmodeus, long may he reign.

We suffered only one casualty, an officer Morris who as you may recall I had already downgraded his last two fitess reports and was recommending re-assignment to the salt mines. The zombies were of no consequence and I anticipate will be quickly replaced, as we now have fresh blood.

One individual, wielding a kitchen implement (a large soup spoon!) of all things prove how foolish and incompetent these would-be rebels are. If indeed there even are rebels. In any case their numbers have been reduced considerably and I anticipate any further disruption of law and order to subside, if not outright cease.

Your Most Humble and Worshipful Servant of Lord Asmodeus, Long May He Reign.

*Please see my other memo on recommendations on dealing with this civil disobedience, titled 'Blood and Souls for Our Lord Asmodeus: a Modest Proposal'

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This party is definitely optimized on the caster play what you want.

If you are dead set on being a blaster...typical builds focus on traits like Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage, feats like Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, usually in conjunction with Burning Hands for the early days and graduating to Fireball.

If you are flexible with race...Gnome pyro make good fire casters.

Alternatively, a kineticist may be a lot easier to play. No tracking spells per day, all your abilites (barring burn) are available all the time. Aether is chock full of utility. Disable traps from 30+ feet away, all day long. Lift party members across obstacles with TK Haul. Damage is a bit low due to lack of a good composite...but you do eventually get access to force damage, arguably one of the best types in the game...and high tiers you are spamming disintegrate. I played one in Dragon's Demand and he was literally a blast and a half.

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Also if you are planning to GM with a GMPC...recommend avoiding that unless you are literally making something like a healbot for the party with no healer or say a non-combat taxi driver type.

A Kitsune Enchanter can potentially outshine the party depending on party makeup. Then again ANY GMPC can outshine the party...

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Lanathar wrote:

So I have a player who is playing a kineticist

I have never had one in a game before but note that there are very few magic items that help them. They seem to have limited support as a class. I assume this is because writers don’t understand their rules (they do seem confusing)
Does anyone have any thoughts ?
Same question could be applied to how the other occult classes might fit in as some seem fun

I could easily see where a Kineticist would fit. One of tremendous advantages for that class in this kind of AP is you are always armed and always have your abilities (subject to burn limits). Even when stripped and tossed into a jail have your full arsenal at hand. Or about your daily business and don't want to scream "I'm a locked and loaded adventurer look at my gear!"

Elements? All of the above and also:

Aether. For a city that thrives on trade, having at-will cargo-moving via Telekenetic Haul (100# per level, all day long) would be of immense use.

Regarding treasure, Kineticists are among the more self-sufficient (if a bit below power-wise characters who optimize or take a tier 1 class). Aside from stat-boosting (belts of con, etc.) or the basic core items such as save-boosters, static items that enhance ranged attacks are about the only thing they may want. A kineticist who doesn't have an energy blast is a 3/4 BAB ranged attacker...who never gets the benefit of an enchanted weapon to assist with their attack bonus. And that does hurt once you get to mid-levels and beyond.

Third party items?
An item that adds to available burn per day would be nice (like x/day subtract 1 burn but not below 0 when using a talent).
Or say the equivalent of a metamagic rod. One of the issues with kinetic blast is zero non-lethal options before level 7 (expanded metakinesis and merciful spell). If anything I'd consider a non-lethal substitution feat or item that allows it a bit earlier. Unless he plans on spamming a wild talent and never blasting, in almost every combat until Book 3 that is.

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Evards Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion...

Uh I mean Black Tentacles works fairly well. Any variety of the wall spells.

Conjure a few Air Elementals, have them whirlwind, fly 100 feet per move action (perfect) and drop their passengers as a free action means wide swaths covered each round. Oh and be sure to drop the mooks into the aforementioned walls or tentacles for an extra bit of damage.

If you want higher level...Holy Word / Blasphemy cheese also covers large areas...

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I created a group that had 2 rules:
1-have fun,
2-we rotate GMs.

Some dropped but we have had several run for the first time after being players only for literally decades.

I would take a step back. If you really want to play try online...pathfinder society online collective or just on roll20. There's usually several games with open invites. Everyone needs to recharge.

Good luck whatever you decide!

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Decanter of Endless Water...during a drought or in the middle of the desert.

Tanglefoot bag vs a flying dragon (well so long as it isn't too big.)

Haunt siphon for the Ghostbusters look.

Power Words.

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We are about start this AP and I was looking for some advice on the campaign specific Noble Scion feat.

Our group so far:
Vigilante (str)
Heavens Shaman
Witch (Patron?)
Court Bard

I decided to go with an Unchained rogue, human.
The Mint Avenger. His foci are Profession (Cook), non-lethal combat, and wielding a MW wooden soup spoon (improvised blunt weapon).

We are limited to Core content, plus Ult Equip, traits, alt race traits from ARG, and two other Paizo hard cover sources (example an Unchained, Scout, Sap Master would be 3 sources and is not allowed) and 1 soft cover source (like a People of the X book.)

Not looking for in depth spoilers. In general from a story standpoint does Noble Scion give a tie-in through several AP books? If it makes a difference I have it narrowed down to strong supporters of the big bad (Thrune.) Just have not finalized which family.

I have played and run several APs and IME the campaign feats are very hit or miss...not terribly concerned from an optimization standpoint I just want the character's story with the feat tie-in to be relevant. I certainly can easily RP w/o the feat if needs be. :)


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Party is L7.
We have a shifter, a witch, a divine (lost 1 lvl of cleric) that functions as a flag bearer bard, one other melee (forget the class atm) and myself.

What we have:
flight: witch only
spider climb: (me)
tanglefoot bags: me and maybe one other.
ranged DPR: me only.

Since I am physical blast best to hit (before bardy buffs) is: +13
+1 Point blank
+5 20 dex
+5 bab
+2 elemental overflow.

There are no magic items available or anywhere we can stock up on say potions of fly.

We already know the dragon has some magic I figure he's gonna mage armor/shield and mirror image or so forth.
We do not have dispel magic.
He may have support (flying clerics with deeper darkness) plus other unknowns (mini-bosses?)
We do not have daylight.

I am a bit worried. With buffs a dragon could have AC's in the 30's. And if he just plays smart and strafes with his breath weapon, the majority of the party has limited or no range abilities. The witch fires a bow if hexes are not up.

We do not know the dragon type we are fighting. Though a reluctant minion' tested' us with entangle so assuming that is one of its SLA's. And no freedom of movement either.

One resist energy potion and one resist energy spell.

Suggestions? Meta-gaming wise we are an oversized party of L7 on an elite buy so we could be talking a CR10 before adding minions, environment, etc.

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Melkiador wrote:
The aether utility and the "rogue" utility will overlap in some places. That's not to say you shouldn't do it, but it could cut into your party role.

Aha...he went fighter vigilante. Aether it is.

I know he won't be a DPR elite...but as long as he fulfills a good role and is viable in this AP, I'm good.. Just was concerned over not having good social options or working undercover.

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Melkiador wrote:
Aether is a little low on damage, but high on utility. It could definitely be handy in the right party for Hell's Rebels. Is your vigilante going more towards the rogue or fighter side of things?

Not known yet. I think roguish was the plan.

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So far we have a divine, arcane(full casters), a vigilante, and a bard.

I am considering an aetherkineticist because he was fun in dragon's demand. We are limited to core plus a couple books so I cannot cherry pick across all supplements but it should be enough for most of them.

I am concerned about long term viability.

I figure that skills such as disguise, bluff, etc. would be necessary and also we're probably fighting critters with DR/SR high saves (devils?) down the road.

Has anyone gone through this with an aetherkinetcist and run into problems, esp the latter half? Any tips (no spoilers please). Just want to make sure I am not making a bad choice.

Pure aether also means no high damage composite blasts...if that makes a difference.

Advice, recommendations welcome.

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Well it's been a good run, but my budget is extra tight so I'm humbly requesting that my subs be stopped.

Any orders in progress feel free to fulfill, don't want to gum up the works.


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So I'm playing a vanilla human TK artist and it's been fun so far. Basically he's a ranged build with ranged trap disabling/door open/closer.

I am doing a little planning ahead. At L3 Kinetic blade seems a decent backup for when I need that melee for 1 round...but I realized while attacking with on isn't provokable...gather power is...unless I want ot take damage every time I swing.

So far he's got:
Basic TK
TK Finesse.
L4 is reserved for TK Haul.
L5 is maybe for spindle for pseudo-AOE
L6 is whispers (rabbit for init) and tk invis
L7 if the game goes that long is Foe Throw.

Looking for suggestions as to get for L3. Note that this campaign ends pretty much as L7.

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Hey folks actually my guy did pretty well during the first session with my railgun TK toon.

Unfortunately I was not a good fit for the group personality-wise.

I'm not really good with laughing at racist jokes and having an hour or so of non-stop ranting curses isn't really my bag. The off-color joking and side-convos meant it was nearly 2 hours before we actually had our first encounter in a 3 hour session. Still the rest of the group is cool with it so I bowed out with no hard feelings.

Nevertheless thanks for all the advice and input I'm sure I'll find another group sometime. :)

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Okay so after deciding to stick with my Kineticist in Rise of the Runelords looking for some advice.

Current party roster: Human Ranger, Human Fighter, Human Dervish Bard, Dorf Forgemaster Cleric.

25 point buy.
Paizo only.

Hobbes 'the Hand' a.k.a. Mr. Handy
Kineticist (Aether)

St 11
Dx 16(18 with racial)
Cn 16
In 12
Ws 12
Ch 10

HP: 12
AC: 16
F+5 R+6 W+2
Atk: 1d20+5 vs AC 1d6+4 BPS, Magic 20x2.

Traits: Reactionary (+2 Init), Vagabond Child (+1 Disable Device and class skill)
Drawback Naive (-2 AC/ CMD vs improvised weapons and dirty tricks)
Bonus trait (from drawback): Indomitable Faith (+1 Will)
Feats: Point Blank Shot(deleted due to house rules replaced with Weapon Focus),
Bonus Feat(human)Precise Shot.
Bonus Feat(anti-hero)Toughness
Gear: Leather Armor, Bag of Marbles, Torchesx3, Flint/Steel, Backpack, Rationsx5.

Tentative Leveling Plan:
1-Basic Telekinesis 5#/2L, Telekinetic Blast, inf:X Rng Feat: WF: Kin Blast, Precise Shot, Toughness(anti-hero)
2-Utility - Telekinetic Finesse, Elem Def
3-Inf:Kinetic Blade, El over+1 // Feat: Iron Will
4-Utility TK Haul 100#/lvl 0 burn, 1 burn 1000#/lvl
5-Inf: Spindle, infus spec 1, metakinesis (empower) // Feat: Ability Focus(Kinetic Blast)
6-El over +2, int buffer 1, TK Invis // Human Extra Wild Talent Max L1-Whispers(rabbit for alertness and +4 Init)
7-IF double aether Foe Throw, aether/force blast (comp) // Feat: Expanded Metakinesis (Merciful Spell) or Imp Init
8-Infusion specialization 2, utility (self TK)
9-Inf: Snake, El over +3, metak(maximize) // Feat: ???
10-Greater Self TK
11-Inf: Wall // Feat: Extra Wild Talent-Max L3: ???
12-Suffocate// Human Extra Wild Talent-Max L4: ???
13-Inf: Disintegrating Infusion

House rules:

1-Elephant in the room Feat Tax.Linky

Summary: Point Blank shot, Weapon Finesse no longer exist. Combat expertise and Improved X (Disarm, Trip, etc.) integrated into a single feat that grant benefits of both. Mobility eliminated and bonus (+4 AC when moving) added to Dodge. Deadly Aim and Power Attack eliminated as feats and available automatically.

2-Background Skills (2 free ranks to spend per level)

3-Hero Points (I used Anti-Hero, Hobbes makes his own luck)

Yes I know some of the feats are wrong...see spoiler for House rules.

With the boost to martial builds I considered going blade whirlwind+ kinetic form...but decided to stay true to his concept. Staying aether at least through Expanded Element. If the game (unlikely) goes to 15+ then I may branch out into earth or something else.

The goal is good utility, so-so ranged plinking, light battlefield control. Kinetic Blade is strictly backup.

Have a few holes especially in the mid-upper levels, any suggestions welcome and thanks!

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Seriously, short of giving fighter magical equivalents by proxy (bag of any magic item) (use-activated item of any spell) (no wbl for martials only)..when spells > feats > skills I am at a loss.

I'd would prefer that everyone have fun...and admit that that Pathfinder isn't 100% equal for everyone in everything.

I played a vital-strike fighter and had fun...and no he did not keep up with the full casters. My guy has a baseball bat and the caster has an instant delivery REI outdoor sporting good catalog (a.k.a. spellbook) where he could order better fighters than myself. :)

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Go aether kineticist and add utility at expense of damage. You will rarely, if ever do burst damage.

That said, my preference always is to bring the others UP, instead of nerfing you down.

Read the PRD section on monster stats by cr. The party is seriously lagging behind the curve for even a standard 15 point buy game.

No the paladin does not have to smite or power attack. The rogue does not have to flank. You could also choose to fight bare-handed, but the classes have those abilities for a reason. The game assumes you will use these abilities appropriately otherwise on level challenges will swamp you, or in your case, one person may shine but simply doing what his class can do.

Also as others have pointed out, what role does everyone see themselves in? Strikers are supposed to do damage...a support class/build is not.

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Appreciate in the input, going to stick with Mr. Handy. If we wipe we wipe. :)
And to clarify above: cleric is forgemaster archetype. Restricted to 1 domain (instead of 2) artifice domain only, loses channeling ability. He's going self-buff build.

And the dervish is also self-buffing bard whirling dervish.

Should be interesting.

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Well in yet another attempt to get through this AP I've signed on to a new party.
Current roll call:
Ranger Human, Human Fighter, Human Dervish, and Dwarf Runeforged Cleric

I was going to go with a Halfling Telekineticist just for fun...but I'm a bit concerned with the roster. It seems we are all melee martials or one sort of another save my guy who's more utility and going to stay ranged.

I have a decent amount of experience playing casters but really just wanted a break from being 'the wizard'.

That said...are we in trouble? I'm determined to make my character a bit happy-go-lucky...but I'm feeling maybe I need to roll a wizard...cause all melee martial party seems like catching the on-ramp for badwrongfun.

If we compare this to a core 4.
We don't have a standard cleric (Forgemaster gives up channeling and has only the artifice domain) we are heavy on melee, no arcane, no rogue...though I suppose my guy is sort of a rogue. Just without evasion, trap-finding, etc...

Maybe I'm fussing over nothing.

Thoughts? Advice?


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I love kineticists.

That said playing a class that is subject to SR and energy resistance/immunity with no mythic maybe with a LOT of house rules.

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Egil Firehair wrote:

Egil Firehair...

So, Egil is considering a one level dip to get upgraded armor and weapon access. The question is, what class?

1) Fighter...
5) Warpriest (like Cleric, but includes weapon upgrades).

The second question is (of course) is slowing down Kineticist level progression worthwhile?

No advice on not being a Fire/Fire Kineticist please. That decision has already been made.

#1 Short version: none of the above. Avoid multiclassing a low-tier character that is highly level dependent. Especially for something like weapon proficiency.

#2 See #1. For long term delaying all the benefits and losing the capstone is usually not worth the sacrifice.

Exception: if the party is made up of unoptimized tier 5's then 1 level won't kill you. It will hurt though.

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^^Rogue^2 I'm considering running this for my group, though I'm currently running 2 others so it may be a while before my schedule opens up.

Another good resource for games is the Pathfinder Society Online Collective (google group.) Despite being ostensibly for Society Play I've seen several (myself included) recruit for home games (or home game versions with chronicles). A lot more GMs there.

Good luck in your quest.

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I was a big fan of nice things for martials (i.e. Book of Nine Swords in 3.5x).

When I had some folks request Path of War I gave a provisional ok for tier 4 classes and below. (Martials with at most 4th level spellcasting).

Now that said, I am not familiar with PoW or the expansion and it is literally several hundred pages of content.

Please is there a PoW & PoW Exp Guide I could reference?

So far as a GM I am most concerned about:
Combos that break action economy. (e.g. in 3.5x it was the infamous White Raven Tactics.)
Builds/archetypes/etc that make you say OMG (and why?)
Or any other pitfalls to watch out for?
Also any sample builds that are decent and easy for new players?

This will be for a level 1-17+ campaign
Thanks in advance!

EDIT: found a guide on gitp, I'll start there. Still if anyone has some suggestions please add here :)

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^^^re: hobgoblins That is SO weird. I have a screenshot of the first time I looked at section for "as player characters". And now it's there.

Okay my previous thought process was if it said "as player characters" it meant legit for more or less "average power level" game. Now I know this isn't the case I can rule accordingly. it's a bit higher than my setting would work well with (published campaign) I'll restrict it to more of the core races or non-core races and keep it at that. I may open up more if say they are bringing in say...a core fighter or rogue :)


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