Insain Dragoon wrote: Insain Dragoon wrote: Ok, so someone mentioned an "Amulet of Mighty Blasting" and I must put an IMMEDIATE objection to the concept of that.
Anything that effects attacks by adding an enhancement bonus like a weapon should be treated like a weapon, not as a wondrous item that eats up a wondrous item slot.
Gauntlets makes sense, some ability to siphon enhancement bonuses from a weapon make sense, a *item* you hold in your hand to channel your power makes sense, but taking up the very important neck slot is a terrible idea. The Amulet of Mighty Fists was a huge mistake and it should not be repeated with the Kineticist.
Needs to be stated again.
Also I would prefer they just be able to use a regular weapon and drain its enhancement bonus. That way they aren't hoping for very specific loot drops from the DM. Look at the Extractor's Gloves from the Monster Codex. They are pretty close to what you're talking about, taking the enchantment from weapons to add to your unarmed attacks. It looks like a good starting point.
Myself, I think an item to enchant would be better. Say a Kineticist rod that #1 can take +10 of ranged enchantments/enhancement bonuses and #2 allows the hand you hold it in to count as free for gathering energy to reduce burn.
Did anyone do any math with vital strike lines? That'd be a really amusing way to blast through resistances (immunity is immunity. Not a problem to me, but i also support the idea of using your el ement to blast other stuff so it falls on them or something)
Hmm I'm gonna start a thread on my idea for alternate burn to see the holes in it that I likely missed
A thought. How would people feel about Feel the Burn adding to AC as well as damage/to-hit?
That sort of ups both its viability and its risk-reward nature. You can eat a few points of burn, hit harder, more accurately, and be harder to hit in return... but if you do get hit, it hurts relatively more.
Artanthos wrote: I've managed to get the to-hit bonus on my aerokineticist up to +17 at 10th level, +18 with point blank. This is with a starting DEX of 16; a min-max build would be looking at a +20 to-hit bonus at the same level. This is accurate enough to reliably hit with physical attacks and should hit touch AC on a 2+ for most encounters.
In the process, I pushed her AC high enough to survive as a front-line melee character. I would feel comfortable playing with her as her build currently stands. She may not be "The Best," but I feel I could hold my own.
The big worry I still have is, no utility.
Go ahead and give a breakdown of it, please.
A character that would be doing an equivalent role at level 10, for example a fighter for simplicity, would be looking at: +10(BaB)+2(Weapon Training)+2(Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus)+7(Str of 24 which is entirely within reason for a character of 10th level)+1(Magic Weapon, entirely possible to get a +2)+2(Gloves of Dueling). That alone is +24, and at level 10 is at +24/+24/+19 for a full attack, assuming any sort of Haste/Speed ability which is core. That's unbuffed, only assuming feats and a decent bit of WBL. If you include buffs or serious optimization to boost the damage, it raises even higher. If you choose a class that's actually good at doing damage and beating something's face in, like Barbarian or Paladin, it shoots straight through the roof. The damage you'll be doing is going to be mostly flat bonuses to damage and will easily be able to breach +20 damage per attack or better, and you've got three attacks. Even on a vaguely optimized Fighter, you'll still beat out a Kineticist on both to-hit and damage. A Fighter. A Barbarian, Paladin, or Magus, or heck even most other classes with a damage focus, will beat the damage of a kineticist out. And many of them also have spells, passive buff abilities, Rage powers, or other boosts, even for out of combat things.
Do metamagic rods work with SLAs?
@Goblin
Mark said he didn't want Kineticist to be doing Fighter damage, so what we should be focused on is making Kineticist have more utility and possibly more damage.
As it is currently its DPR has trouble beating a Bard Archer's.
Artanthos wrote: I've managed to get the to-hit bonus on my aerokineticist up to +17 at 10th level, +18 with point blank. This is with a starting DEX of 16; a min-max build would be looking at a +20 to-hit bonus at the same level. This is accurate enough to reliably hit with physical attacks and should hit touch AC on a 2+ for most encounters.
In the process, I pushed her AC high enough to survive as a front-line melee character. I would feel comfortable playing with her as her build currently stands. She may not be "The Best," but I feel I could hold my own.
The big worry I still have is, no utility.
EDIT: As was pointed out by Jeff Merola, if you have levels in a arcane casting class, Arcane strike will work. Otherwise, don't take it
FYI: Arcane strike does not work with the Kineticist blasts
Peter
Peter nielson wrote: Artanthos wrote: I've managed to get the to-hit bonus on my aerokineticist up to +17 at 10th level, +18 with point blank. This is with a starting DEX of 16; a min-max build would be looking at a +20 to-hit bonus at the same level. This is accurate enough to reliably hit with physical attacks and should hit touch AC on a 2+ for most encounters.
In the process, I pushed her AC high enough to survive as a front-line melee character. I would feel comfortable playing with her as her build currently stands. She may not be "The Best," but I feel I could hold my own.
The big worry I still have is, no utility.
FYI: Arcane strike does not work with the Kineticist blasts
Peter Uh, no, it works fine, provided you have an Arcane Caster Level from somewhere else to qualify for the feat.
Edit: Have a ruling on it from earlier in the thread.
Melkiador wrote: Do metamagic rods work with SLAs? It's been asked before, with no answer coming from on high yet. I've noted that Force Blast + Toppling Spell would be a neat combo for a Telekineticist...
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kestral287 wrote: A thought. How would people feel about Feel the Burn adding to AC as well as damage/to-hit?
That sort of ups both its viability and its risk-reward nature. You can eat a few points of burn, hit harder, more accurately, and be harder to hit in return... but if you do get hit, it hurts relatively more.
For me, all the bells and whistles you add to it doesn't change the fact that the more burn you take the closer you are to laying down on the ground. The only way to make it easier to take would be to lessen the amount you take not adding more 'goodies'.
kestral287 wrote: A thought. How would people feel about Feel the Burn adding to AC as well as damage/to-hit?
That sort of ups both its viability and its risk-reward nature. You can eat a few points of burn, hit harder, more accurately, and be harder to hit in return... but if you do get hit, it hurts relatively more.
Shroud of Water already does this. Burn yourself to increase the AC granted.
Jeff Merola wrote: Peter nielson wrote: Artanthos wrote: --snip aerokineticist --snip snip
Peter snip
Edit: Have a ruling on it from earlier in the thread. You are correct, Good sir, on the other hand, the character is a 10th level Kineticist with no levels in arcane casting, so it wouldn't work for his build.
Peter
Zwordsman wrote: Did anyone do any math with vital strike lines? That'd be a really amusing way to blast through resistances (immunity is immunity. Not a problem to me, but i also support the idea of using your el ement to blast other stuff so it falls on them or something)
Hmm I'm gonna start a thread on my idea for alternate burn to see the holes in it that I likely missed
A rough breakdown of it at about level 10 would be that, assuming a decent power blast like Metal(Which you're accepting Burn to use in the first place at level 10), you'll be looking at 2d6+2+Con(Assume a 22 for simplicity, +2d6+2 for every 2 levels past 1 so 8d6+8. Total damage: 10d6+16. Assuming that Vital Strike is allowed to work with non-Whip/Blade blasts, and that the +2d6+2 isn't bonus dice but instead base damage of the ability unlike bombs, Vital Strike gives you 20d6+16 at level 10. Average of ~90 damage per round at level 10. Something like a fighter will outdo that pretty handily, as will a barbarian, ranger, or paladin. Vital Strike working with the ability makes it COMPETITIVE, not BETTER than a fighter. If it doesn't work, or you can't use blasts as full-attack, the class doesn't do damage at all. It lacks the utility to make up for the lack of damage.
Put simply, if the class doesn't get it's utility shored up and it's damage buffed so that it's actually worthwhile to try doing damage with it? The class will be useless. Not in the "b-but it needs d12 HD and 5000000 damage to be good!" useless, but in the sense that it lacks a niche to fill, lacks the utility to be broad in it's abilities, lacks damage that's comparable to even unoptimized damage dealers, and lacks the skillpoints to even be able to make a skillmonkey out of it. If it ISN'T buffed up in a number of different ways, the class will be a 1 level dip for casters so that they can pick up Telekinesis Force Ward and become immune to all negative conditions via a regenerating pool of temp HP that outright gives immunity to all SoL/SoD spells that don't do damage.
Btw, bonuses from Feel The Burn last all day until rest is completed.
Goblinsaurus wrote:
Go ahead and give a breakdown of it, please.
A character that would be doing an equivalent role at level 10, for example a fighter for simplicity, would be looking at: +10(BaB)+2(Weapon Training)+2(Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus)+7(Str of 24 which is entirely within reason for a character of 10th level)+1(Magic Weapon, entirely possible to get a +2)+2(Gloves of Dueling). That alone is +24, and at level 10 is at +24/+24/+19 for a full attack, assuming any sort of Haste/Speed ability which is core. That's unbuffed, only assuming feats and a decent bit of WBL. If you include buffs or serious optimization to boost the damage, it raises even higher. If you choose a class that's actually good at doing damage and beating something's face in, like Barbarian or Paladin, it shoots straight through the roof. The damage you'll be doing is going to be mostly flat bonuses to damage and will easily be able to breach +20 damage per attack or better, and you've got three attacks. Even on a vaguely optimized Fighter, you'll still beat out a Kineticist on both to-hit and damage. A Fighter. A Barbarian, Paladin, or Magus, or heck even most other classes with a damage focus, will beat the damage of a kineticist out. And many of them also have spells, passive buff abilities, Rage powers, or other...
I linked the character (and also made a few more optimizations): +7 BAB, +8 DEX, +3 FtB, +1 focus, +1 point blank = +20
Average AC for CR 10: 24 = 85% hit chance.
Goblinsaurus wrote: Zwordsman wrote: Did anyone do any math with vital strike lines? That'd be a really amusing way to blast through resistances (immunity is immunity. Not a problem to me, but i also support the idea of using your el ement to blast other stuff so it falls on them or something)
Hmm I'm gonna start a thread on my idea for alternate burn to see the holes in it that I likely missed
A rough breakdown of it at about level 10 would be that, assuming a decent power blast like Metal(Which you're accepting Burn to use in the first place at level 10), you'll be looking at 2d6+2+Con(Assume a 22 for simplicity, +2d6+2 for every 2 levels past 1 so 8d6+8. Total damage: 10d6+16. Assuming that Vital Strike is allowed to work with non-Whip/Blade blasts, and that the +2d6+2 isn't bonus dice but instead base damage of the ability unlike bombs, Vital Strike gives you 20d6+16 at level 10. Average of ~90 damage per round at level 10. Something like a fighter will outdo that pretty handily, as will a barbarian, ranger, or paladin. Vital Strike working with the ability makes it COMPETITIVE, not BETTER than a fighter. If it doesn't work, or you can't use blasts as full-attack, the class doesn't do damage at all. It lacks the utility to make up for the lack of damage.
Put simply, if the class doesn't get it's utility shored up and it's damage buffed so that it's actually worthwhile to try doing damage with it? The class will be useless. Not in the "b-but it needs d12 HD and 5000000 damage to be good!" useless, but in the sense that it lacks a niche to fill, lacks the utility to be broad in it's abilities, lacks damage that's comparable to even unoptimized damage dealers, and lacks the skillpoints to even be able to make a skillmonkey out of it. If it ISN'T buffed up in a number of different ways, the class will be a 1 level dip for casters so that they can pick up Telekinesis Force Ward and become immune to all negative conditions via a regenerating pool of temp HP that outright gives immunity to all SoL/SoD spells... Mark has already flatly stated that kineticist will not deal fighter/barbarian/archer damage and if we find a way to deal that level of damage it will be removed.
Goblinsaurus wrote: If it ISN'T buffed up in a number of different ways, the class will be a 1 level dip for casters so that they can pick up Telekinesis Force Ward and become immune to all negative conditions via a regenerating pool of temp HP that outright gives immunity to all SoL/SoD spells... This has already been addressed, it only stops effects that it actually prevents damage from. Ray of Enfeeblement is still gonna nuke your str score, other spells still do whatever.
Peter nielson wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: Peter nielson wrote: Artanthos wrote: --snip aerokineticist --snip snip
Peter snip
Edit: Have a ruling on it from earlier in the thread. You are correct, Good sir, on the other hand, the character is a 10th level Kineticist with no levels in arcane casting, so it wouldn't work for his build.
Peter
All gnomes have an arcane caster level.
They get a entire list of racial SLA's
Artanthos wrote:
All gnomes have an arcane caster level.
They get a entire list of racial SLA's
You need a charisma of 11 to get SLA's, you have 10 :/
Character was updated :D
I see what you did there :P
Peter
Insain Dragoon wrote: @Goblin
Mark said he didn't want Kineticist to be doing Fighter damage, so what we should be focused on is making Kineticist have more utility and possibly more damage.
As it is currently its DPR has trouble beating a Bard Archer's.
It... doesn't do fighter damage, though. It doesn't even come close to fighter damage, even when heavily optimized to do so. Even if it DID come close to it, it'd still run into the problem of not having enough to-hit to reliably do so, and it's still squisher than the fighter. AND it needs to hurt itself in order to use those abilities that let it even do that much.
At level 10, an optimized for damage kineticist is going to be doing at best maybe ~90 DPR, maybe up to ~110 if it gets some way to buff it's damage or Mythic Vital Strike is allowed by a GM. This is assuming average of 3.5 rounded to 4 on rolls, otherwise it'll drop considerably down to ~80.
At level 10, a Fighter, which is fairly commonly held as a poorly made class and doesn't even do more than middlingly good at dealing damage compared to similar classes, will be looking at likely landing 2-3 attacks per round. Each attack will be doing, at that level and assuming the build from earlier and a Greatsword, 2d6+10(Str 2h)+4(Weapon Training+Gloves)+2(Weapon Specialization)+1(Enhancement)+9(Power Attack) on the first attack for a total of 2d6+26 on the first attack, and 2d6+30 on the next two. That's unbuffed at all. If the fighter gets buffed to be larger, gets any sort of +damage buff or +hit buff, or any sort of increase at all, which is very likely and he can make FAR better use of than the kineticist, it'll increase. Assuming even that much, that's a flat out 6d6+86 damage BASELINE. That's 110 DPR unbuffed, melee range, not fully optimized. If it's ranged, go ahead and jack that up about 30 points MINIMUM to account for two more attacks, and then add in that you'll now make even more insanely better use of any buffs than the Kineticist can ever do.
Peter nielson wrote: Artanthos wrote:
All gnomes have an arcane caster level.
They get a entire list of racial SLA's
You need a charisma of 11 to get SLA's, you have 10 :/
Peter Fixed it for you.
No stat bonuses changed.
Artanthos wrote: Mark has already flatly stated that kineticist will not deal fighter/barbarian/archer damage and if we find a way to deal that level of damage it will be removed. I'm seriously questioning what the point of this class is at this point. Every feature of the class other then Wild Talent are blasting specific abilities. Most of the Wild Talents are blasting specific abilities. The class burns it's HP in order to be better at blasting. The class only has 2 skill points and no other reason to invest in int and several reasons not to.
If the class isn't allowed to be better then others even when permanently burning HP's for each day what is the point? Other then permanent fly or earth glide or air walk, etc what does it do better then anyone?
Righto. I'm looking at a Geo that can get six attacks at level 20, at 19/19/14/14/9/9, with 1D4+2+3D6 damage per hit. This can, with a few burn, be brought to maximized 6D6=36 damage, with an extra +4 to hit, and a massive str bonus. So the nova attack (now adding in FtB to hit and damage, and a maximized composite blast, both at -1 burn for specializaton so they cost only 2 per use of this damage level) is effective 29/29/24/24/19/19, for 1d4+48 each. I now have 5 attacks of opportunity from combat reflexes, attacks which miss against me provoke and if I hit with an attack of opportunity that was provoked by someone missing me I hit them again for fun. This all comes from the Snake Style feats. So I can in theory get another 10 hits this turn from those. More likely I'll see 1-4 hits that way, but even with the extra attacks of opportunity being ignored, I'm nova attacking for up to 288 static damage and a few d4s. This is not including any items, uses metal CB with maximize and magnetic infusions, and greater kinetic form for huge elemental's strength bonus.
it uses greater two weapon fighting, kinetic fist, combat reflexes, and snake style feats. It assumes you can get to 19 dex, 14 str and still have a decent con mod to run the class. It also relies on the somewhat shaky grounds that metakinetics would apply broad spectrum to the dice added to your kinetic fists. Without that, I get aproximately 1D Coffee can worth of dice to throw instead. This nova trick spends 2 burn to become EBIV, 2 to use maximized Metal with the magnetic infusion, and can be repeated for only the 2 for maximized metal. It also adds that same +4 to all allies using a metal weapon, and can divide nicely among crowds or single target.
Artanthos wrote: Goblinsaurus wrote: Zwordsman wrote: Mark has already flatly stated that kineticist will not deal fighter/barbarian/archer damage and if we find a way to deal that level of damage it will be removed.
Are you reading my posts at all? The Kineticist DOESN'T do comparable damage to them. Even an optimized kineticist loses out HARD to an unoptimized, unbuffed fighter. I'm not in any way saying that the kineticist needs to be the highest DPR class or something similar, but you can't make a class that's based around blasting things and then have it's blast be literally worthless when compared to other damage dealers. It's role is to do damage and have utility. Right now? It doesn't have either. It fails out to a FIGHTER in terms of damage, let alone comparing it to a Barbarian or Paladin or other class that's /good/ at blowing things up.
It needs buffs. It need, honestly, fairly large buffs. A class that's meant to do combat and yet still has issues hitting things without sinking it's entire resource pool into doing so, still doesn't do decent damage against appropriate encounters, and has to hurt itself to even get a chance at doing so in the first place is not a class that will perform well. And that's not even touching on things like the issue of Energy Resistance, Immunity, Damage Reduction against alignments or extra weapon bonuses besides just Magic, or the fact that it's utility is lackluster at best currently. Aside from Air getting Fly at level 6(Everything else can also get it by then too. Spells are good like that.), it doesn't get much.
Huh...
Well I think considering the aim is "one blast" a round (ranged anyway)
Vital strike would be pretty awesome for this class. So would things like Shot on the Run.
Both of which don't qualify due to the SLA -standard action nature of the blasts right? It would be cool if there was a way to do that..
considering Kinetic blade already allows for iteratives (right?) allowing vital strike shouldn't be any real problem on the old DPR scale... would it? As it stands its a lot like Bombs on an alchemist except they eventually can full attack whic hthese guys can not. So really.. Lets just go with the idea of "big bang attack!" once around stuff. Just go full DBZ on it.
For myself,
Raising skill to 4 or 6,
Changing burn a little (I still like this idea (which would really really require working by someone who understands the mechanics better) alternate burn idea since then you can actually kep Feel the Burn on
and possibly allowing Vital Strike or Shot on the run type things in specific, would make a really cool kiting scout nitch for this character.
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TheRamza wrote:
I'm seriously questioning what the point of this class is at this point. Every feature of the class other then Wild Talent are blasting specific abilities. Most of the Wild Talents are blasting specific abilities. The class burns it's HP in order to be better at blasting. The class only has 2 skill points and no other reason to invest in int and several reasons not to.
If the class isn't allowed to be better then others even when permanently burning HP's for each day what is the point? Other then permanent fly or earth glide or air walk, etc what does it do better then anyone?
Pretty much exactly this. The class doesn't do good DPR even with favorable houserules, doesn't get good skills, doesn't get much utility, and doesn't get anything like spells.
I get that there are people here who just dislike things for the sake of disliking it, but if they're not going to actually look at the numbers behind it and read into it, then quite frankly they need to stop posting. The playtest is meant to address the problems with the class. The problems have been clearly stated, laid out, backed up with examples of the math, and put RIGHT THERE for everyone to see.
The class does not do good damage. It does not have the utility it claims it should. The majority, if not nearly all, of it's abilities focus on doing damage. Yet the developer of it says it won't do comparable damage to other classes. Why? Why would you make a class and very clearly throw it a bucket of damage-dealing abilities, and then slap people who try to do that? It isn't even made up for in utility, versatility, spells, neat little tricks it can do, or anything else.
For those who keep saying "it's not doing fighter damage!" Bear in mind that without any burn, I'm still hitting 6 times with 1d4+2+3D6, the 3D6 are choice of melee damage type P/B/S, and I'm entangling with every hit. If I hit after entangling, I'm rooting them in place. Then I can happily leave them there for up to a minute while chasing some butterflies and coming back to kill them. Still underpowered, but people are underestimating the FtB, constant status and multitarget abilities, and intense range and mobility that this class does very well. I think if people start assuming a few points of burn to start with buffing up defences and such, then keeping their health up to be ready to nova in the late day, this can be more viable than expected.
Edit: for instance, that very same attack 1 round later to use 2 burn on EBIV, and im swinging... would being huge affect your unarmed strike damage dice? I feel it should but the spell doesn't mention it. Either way. 1d4+8+3D6 now, with +2 to hit. Add a few more burn and this to hit problem is actually being accounted for with FtB. I mean, it gets up to a +6, and we're only +5 from full BAB.
graystone wrote: kestral287 wrote: A thought. How would people feel about Feel the Burn adding to AC as well as damage/to-hit?
That sort of ups both its viability and its risk-reward nature. You can eat a few points of burn, hit harder, more accurately, and be harder to hit in return... but if you do get hit, it hurts relatively more.
For me, all the bells and whistles you add to it doesn't change the fact that the more burn you take the closer you are to laying down on the ground. The only way to make it easier to take would be to lessen the amount you take not adding more 'goodies'. By "lessen the amount you take" do you mean take less Burn, or each Burn deals less HP damage? I'm curious.
Shiroi wrote: For those who keep saying "it's not doing fighter damage!" Bear in mind that without any burn, I'm still hitting 6 times with 1d4+2+3D6, the 3D6 are choice of melee damage type P/B/S, and I'm entangling with every hit. If I hit after entangling, I'm rooting them in place. Then I can happily leave them there for up to a minute while chasing some butterflies and coming back to kill them. Still underpowered, but people are underestimating the FtB, constant status and multitarget abilities, and intense range and mobility that this class does very well. I think if people start assuming a few points of burn to start with buffing up defences and such, then keeping their health up to be ready to nova in the late day, this can be more viable than expected. I'm curious about how you're attacking six times. I can't figure it out without eating a hilarious amount of Burn or assuming you can Double Kinetic Blade, which seems... dubious.
Zwordsman wrote: Huh...
Well I think considering the aim is "one blast" a round (ranged anyway)
Vital strike would be pretty awesome for this class. So would things like Shot on the Run.
Both of which don't qualify due to the SLA -standard action nature of the blasts right? It would be cool if there was a way to do that..
considering Kinetic blade already allows for iteratives (right?) allowing vital strike shouldn't be any real problem on the old DPR scale... would it? As it stands its a lot like Bombs on an alchemist except they eventually can full attack whic hthese guys can not. So really.. Lets just go with the idea of "big bang attack!" once around stuff. Just go full DBZ on it.
For myself,
Raising skill to 4 or 6,
Changing burn a little (I still like this idea (which would really really require working by someone who understands the mechanics better) alternate burn idea since then you can actually kep Feel the Burn on
and possibly allowing Vital Strike or Shot on the run type things in specific, would make a really cool kiting scout nitch for this character.
Kinetic Blast only counts for Iteratives if you use Kinetic Whip, Blade, or Fist. Otherwise, no.
In addition, as http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Spell-Like-Abilities-Sp- says for Spell-Like Abilities, the action to activate a SLA is a standard action, unless it's listed as something else in the abilities description. Kinetic Blast could easily be changed to require an Attack Action to use, which would fulfill exactly the same role and open up Vital Strike so it can at least do some sort of damage.
TheRamza wrote: Artanthos wrote: Mark has already flatly stated that kineticist will not deal fighter/barbarian/archer damage and if we find a way to deal that level of damage it will be removed. I'm seriously questioning what the point of this class is at this point. Every feature of the class other then Wild Talent are blasting specific abilities. Most of the Wild Talents are blasting specific abilities. The class burns it's HP in order to be better at blasting. The class only has 2 skill points and no other reason to invest in int and several reasons not to.
If the class isn't allowed to be better then others even when permanently burning HP's for each day what is the point? Other then permanent fly or earth glide or air walk, etc what does it do better then anyone? What is the point of any class that does not deal enough damage to one-shot a APL+4 opponent?
Currently I'm looking at about 54 DPR without burning hit points while actually fighting. 30 points of burn setting up defenses in the morning max out my FtB at +3 for the entire day.
Now, I do agree, the class does need some utility. I expect quite a few class abilities have been written but not introduced into the play test. I also think the class needs 6 skill points/level to contribute outside combat. Only fair since the class is not intended to be competitive on DPR.
kestral287 wrote:
By "lessen the amount you take" do you mean take less Burn, or each Burn deals less HP damage? I'm curious.
Less incurable damage. I could work with the hp damage as-is if you could fix it or less of it being un-healable.
graystone wrote: kestral287 wrote:
By "lessen the amount you take" do you mean take less Burn, or each Burn deals less HP damage? I'm curious.
Less incurable damage. I could work with the hp damage as-is if you could fix it or less of it being un-healable. Reasonable enough. Do you have a thought to how you'd like to see that brought about? Half of Burn damage is healable, or just cut the raw numbers in half, or make it all healable, or something else entirely?
Artanthos wrote: TheRamza wrote: Artanthos wrote: Mark has already flatly stated that kineticist will not deal fighter/barbarian/archer damage and if we find a way to deal that level of damage it will be removed. I'm seriously questioning what the point of this class is at this point. Every feature of the class other then Wild Talent are blasting specific abilities. Most of the Wild Talents are blasting specific abilities. The class burns it's HP in order to be better at blasting. The class only has 2 skill points and no other reason to invest in int and several reasons not to.
If the class isn't allowed to be better then others even when permanently burning HP's for each day what is the point? Other then permanent fly or earth glide or air walk, etc what does it do better then anyone? What is the point of any class that does not deal enough damage to one-shot a APL+4 opponent?
APL+4? Really? You can stop posting anytime now, thanks. 80-90 DPR won't one-round a CR appropriate CR10 encounter, let alone a CR+4.
To prove exactly that: https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/drago ns/dragon/chromatic-red/young-red-dragon
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/outsi ders/rakshasa/rakshasa-common
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/aberr ations/fleshwarped/fleshwarp-ghonhatine
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/aberr ations/gug
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/undea d/pale-stranger
Oh, look, not a single one has below 110 HP. And they're all CR10.
And just to yet again drive home that you're pulling things out of your rear and aren't actually reading anything, giving thought to opposing facts, or even bothering to check your own, lets give example CR+4 encounters.
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/drago ns/dragon/chromatic-red/adult-red-dragon
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/undea d/demilich
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/human oids/giants/giant-true/giant-ocean
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/const ructs/golem/golem-brass
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/magic al-beasts/xanthos
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/monst rous-humanoids/rokurokubi
Yet again, not going to get one-rounded, even by the higher-tier damage dealer.
Oh, and as ANOTHER point, most of those either have heavy resistance, immunity, or DR that the Kineticist will have additional trouble bypassing above what the fighter needs to get through.
The Kineticist is a class that has low survivability thanks to it's Burn ability and NEEDING to use it to do anything that's even remotely respectable damage wise. It lacks staying power throughout the day because of that, even moreso than a caster would. Even when heavily optimized for doing damage, it falls very far behind. To make up for this, it gets... nothing. The solution to fixing the class isn't simply to buff it's damage up harder than a fighters, or to give it more utility than a wizard, it's to give it a MIX.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm arguing that the class needs to do something insane like 500DPR while getting 6th-level equivalent casting or similar. All I'm arguing for is that it should, if built towards it, be able to get some degree of actual damage output. It's MAIN ABILITY, and the MAJORITY of it's Wild Talents ALL focus on doing damage, making it easier for you to do damage, or making your damage do interesting things. If it isn't a damage class, then what in the hell is it? It certainly isn't a skillmonkey or utility character, since it lacks those almost entirely. It doesn't even get buffs it can hand out to the party aside from a few relatively tiny ones.
Quick Question for Water Kinetics. Can they use their Defense Talent to have both a Shield and Armor bonuses up? Does the Shield bonus take up a hand?
Making it a skilly fifth would be cool.
You know what would be a totally awesome archetype? The sage master elementalist. Some kind of buffing like sensei. Anyway, just a thought.
Mark posted this in the Medium topic and ask someone to post it here.
Mark Seifter wrote: On a sadder note, earlier today I've had a death in the family. I'll be on a transcontinental flight early tomorrow. You may not see much, or any, of me for a few days. Someone in this thread who reads this please let the kineticist thread know; I don't have time to read the 40+ posts that are new since last time I read it, and if I click into that thread to post, it won't keep my place. I read 100% of the posts you guys make, and I want to make sure I don't miss even one of them, so I'm counting on you medium testers.
Please throw a few dice for me and keep being awesome. Talk to you all later in the week.
~Mark
Goblinsaurus wrote: Artanthos wrote: TheRamza wrote: Artanthos wrote: Mark has already flatly stated that kineticist will not deal fighter/barbarian/archer damage and if we find a way to deal that level of damage it will be removed. I'm seriously questioning what the point of this class is at this point. Every feature of the class other then Wild Talent are blasting specific abilities. Most of the Wild Talents are blasting specific abilities. The class burns it's HP in order to be better at blasting. The class only has 2 skill points and no other reason to invest in int and several reasons not to.
If the class isn't allowed to be better then others even when permanently burning HP's for each day what is the point? Other then permanent fly or earth glide or air walk, etc what does it do better then anyone? What is the point of any class that does not deal enough damage to one-shot a APL+4 opponent?
APL+4? Really? You can stop posting anytime now, thanks. 80-90 DPR won't one-round a CR appropriate CR10 encounter, let alone a CR+4.
To prove exactly that: https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/drago ns/dragon/chromatic-red/young-red-dragon
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/outsi ders/rakshasa/rakshasa-common
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/aberr ations/fleshwarped/fleshwarp-ghonhatine
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/aberr ations/gug
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/undea d/pale-stranger
Oh, look, not a single one has below 110 HP. And they're all CR10.
And just to yet again drive home that you're pulling things out of your rear and aren't actually reading anything, giving thought to opposing facts, or even bothering to check your own, lets give example CR+4 encounters.
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/drago ns/dragon/chromatic-red/adult-red-dragon... Is it really necessary to be so offensive, to speak to a fellow poster like that.
So far the posters on this playtest forum have been amicable and polite to each other. And the playtest has benefited from such mutual respect.
There is always the Gaming Den (I'm sure Frank Trollman's followers will welcome such disrespectful behavior).
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Azten wrote: Quick Question for Water Kinetics. Can they use their Defense Talent to have both a Shield and Armor bonuses up? Does the Shield bonus take up a hand? One bonus or the other (but they can switch between them as a standard action), and no hand required.
When you do return and read this, Mark, our condolences for your loss.
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kestral287 wrote: graystone wrote: kestral287 wrote:
By "lessen the amount you take" do you mean take less Burn, or each Burn deals less HP damage? I'm curious.
Less incurable damage. I could work with the hp damage as-is if you could fix it or less of it being un-healable. Reasonable enough. Do you have a thought to how you'd like to see that brought about? Half of Burn damage is healable, or just cut the raw numbers in half, or make it all healable, or something else entirely? My first preference would be to make it healable. If that didn't work then drop to 1/2 healable.
I'd also like to separate burn and the feel the burn bonuses. I HATE the fact that to keep up my to hit, I have to shoot myself repeatedly in the foot. What I'm doing the burn for should be good enough on it's own without the feel the burn 'carrot on the stick' buff.
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So, I was building a 1st level Pyrokinetisist, and I realized something funny. Despite being able to produce fire from his hands *at will*, he still needs to carry torches!
It would be nice if each type of Kineticist got an at will cantrip that matches their powers. For example:
Aether: Mage Hand
Air: Ghost Sound?
Earth: Mend
Water: Create Water
Fire: Dancing Lights/Spark
I know it has been mentioned before, but I also have to point out that I feel forced to play a Human so I can get Precise Shot at level 1. The class probably should get an early feat that lets the player choose their fighting style.
so people who are more knowledgeable..
does it feel like maybe they're having a hard time balancing ranged vs melee aspects? Maybe due to iteratives.
Maybe blasting needs iteratives, or melee should remove iteratives. But both aspects get a boost in power?
Since so far with what I can get from the playtests is that blasts are hard to hit and don't do enough damage, while burn-bursting with Melee can result in a ton of damage (after all it's blast level damages with iteratives so kinda like sneak attack +the metamagicableness)
graystone wrote: kestral287 wrote: graystone wrote: kestral287 wrote:
By "lessen the amount you take" do you mean take less Burn, or each Burn deals less HP damage? I'm curious.
Less incurable damage. I could work with the hp damage as-is if you could fix it or less of it being un-healable. Reasonable enough. Do you have a thought to how you'd like to see that brought about? Half of Burn damage is healable, or just cut the raw numbers in half, or make it all healable, or something else entirely? My first preference would be to make it healable. If that didn't work then drop to 1/2 healable.
I'd also like to separate burn and the feel the burn bonuses. I HATE the fact that to keep up my to hit, I have to shoot myself repeatedly in the foot. What I'm doing the burn for should be good enough on it's own without the feel the burn 'carrot on the stick' buff. As was suggested previously by Melkiador, changing it from burn = HD damage to burn = effective spell level would help immensely. First burn damage would only go up when the actual effectiveness of the ability went up instead of going up regardless of effectiveness increase and it would cut the total in atleast half, more so for a some of the lesser abilities.
The issue of the blasts I'm not sure on, as the effective level of blasts is always caster level goes up every 2 levels maxing at 9 at 18, but the infusions are set at different levels. Probably just use the highest applicable level? Still be less damage over all so it still be better.
Kinetic Healer is the only ability I see as being thrown out of balance by this, but as is I don't like kinetic healer anyway so if it has to be redesigned I see no major loss.
The really important thing I feel this does though is that other then blasts your ability to perform these actions gets more numerous as you level up like normal casters instead of staying static or possibly going down.
Matrix Dragon wrote: So, I was building a 1st level Pyrokinetisist, and I realized something funny. Despite being able to produce fire from his hands *at will*, he still needs to carry torches!
It would be nice if each type of Kineticist got an at will cantrip that matches their powers. For example:
Aether: Mage Hand
Air: Ghost Sound?
Earth: Mend
Water: Create Water
Fire: Dancing Lights/Spark
I know it has been mentioned before, but I also have to point out that I feel forced to play a Human so I can get Precise Shot at level 1. The class probably should get an early feat that lets the player choose their fighting style.
I'd love to see some cantrip to start off with. Some simple manipulations to make you feel more like an elementalist.
Yes, you seem 'stuck' with a feat tax. I'd like to see a hunter type bonus feat for Precise Shot at second at least.
Zwordsman wrote: so people who are more knowledgeable..
does it feel like maybe they're having a hard time balancing ranged vs melee aspects? Maybe due to iteratives.
Maybe blasting needs iteratives, or melee should remove iteratives. But both aspects get a boost in power?
Since so far with what I can get from the playtests is that blasts are hard to hit and don't do enough damage, while burn-bursting with Melee can result in a ton of damage (after all it's blast level damages with iteratives so kinda like sneak attack +the metamagicableness)
I think what we really need is a Fast Bombs-equivalent; a Wild Talent that lets the Kineticist take iterative attacks with his blasts. I have thoughts for one rolling around in my head, but I'm not sure if it should be a freebie akin to Air's Reach or a talent that has to be paid for. My current thought is to make it a Form Infusion with a Burn cost of 2. That turns the Kineticist into a highly effective damage platform... but only in limited circumstances, as it restricts them from other Forms (meaning no Extended/Extreme Range, no Snaking, no barrage of Explosions to cover a room in minion-slaying death).
Removing iteratives feels like a mistake; nobody likes feeling useless when they totally waste a turn, but having your single Cold Blast whiff against the dragon's SR does just that. But making iteratives hard to use, turning the Kineticist into something that requires careful tactics to make use of... that's more okay.
Dead Phoenix wrote: Mark posted this in the Medium topic and ask someone to post it here.
Mark Seifter wrote: On a sadder note, earlier today I've had a death in the family. I'll be on a transcontinental flight early tomorrow. You may not see much, or any, of me for a few days. Someone in this thread who reads this please let the kineticist thread know; I don't have time to read the 40+ posts that are new since last time I read it, and if I click into that thread to post, it won't keep my place. I read 100% of the posts you guys make, and I want to make sure I don't miss even one of them, so I'm counting on you medium testers.
Please throw a few dice for me and keep being awesome. Talk to you all later in the week.
~Mark
My condolences, Mark.
Sometimes I wish I was a better person so I didn't see the black humor possibilities of this being posted in the Medium thread.
Deepest condolences here as well, Mark. Real life > game, always. I am *quite* sure people will still be here arguing tons of different ideas when you're back.
kestral287 wrote: Zwordsman wrote: so people who are more knowledgeable..
does it feel like maybe they're having a hard time balancing ranged vs melee aspects? Maybe due to iteratives.
Maybe blasting needs iteratives, or melee should remove iteratives. But both aspects get a boost in power?
Since so far with what I can get from the playtests is that blasts are hard to hit and don't do enough damage, while burn-bursting with Melee can result in a ton of damage (after all it's blast level damages with iteratives so kinda like sneak attack +the metamagicableness)
I think what we really need is a Fast Bombs-equivalent; a Wild Talent that lets the Kineticist take iterative attacks with his blasts. I have thoughts for one rolling around in my head, but I'm not sure if it should be a freebie akin to Air's Reach or a talent that has to be paid for. My current thought is to make it a Form Infusion with a Burn cost of 2. That turns the Kineticist into a highly effective damage platform... but only in limited circumstances, as it restricts them from other Forms (meaning no Extended/Extreme Range, no Snaking, no barrage of Explosions to cover a room in minion-slaying death).
Removing iteratives feels like a mistake; nobody likes feeling useless when they totally waste a turn, but having your single Cold Blast whiff against the dragon's SR does just that. But making iteratives hard to use, turning the Kineticist into something that requires careful tactics to make use of... that's more okay. Personally I think "Barrage of explosions covering the room in minion-slaying death" is exactly what the Kineticist SHOULD be.
The class is basically a magic martial. That's what Mark has made it anyway (supposedly high firepower, low utility, goes all day), and that's a fine niche for it to fill. Why not make it excel at that?
If the Alchemist can do it, and Nauseate the survivors, why can't the Kineticist?
That is sad news, my condolences, Mark.
kestral287 wrote: Zwordsman wrote: so people who are more knowledgeable..
does it feel like maybe they're having a hard time balancing ranged vs melee aspects? Maybe due to iteratives.
Maybe blasting needs iteratives, or melee should remove iteratives. But both aspects get a boost in power?
Since so far with what I can get from the playtests is that blasts are hard to hit and don't do enough damage, while burn-bursting with Melee can result in a ton of damage (after all it's blast level damages with iteratives so kinda like sneak attack +the metamagicableness)
I think what we really need is a Fast Bombs-equivalent; a Wild Talent that lets the Kineticist take iterative attacks with his blasts. I have thoughts for one rolling around in my head, but I'm not sure if it should be a freebie akin to Air's Reach or a talent that has to be paid for. My current thought is to make it a Form Infusion with a Burn cost of 2. That turns the Kineticist into a highly effective damage platform... but only in limited circumstances, as it restricts them from other Forms (meaning no Extended/Extreme Range, no Snaking, no barrage of Explosions to cover a room in minion-slaying death).
Removing iteratives feels like a mistake; nobody likes feeling useless when they totally waste a turn, but having your single Cold Blast whiff against the dragon's SR does just that. But making iteratives hard to use, turning the Kineticist into something that requires careful tactics to make use of... that's more okay. Yeah true on the useless feels.
I really hope there is a way to be that "one big blastguy" and be the "carpet bomber" type.
Maybe wyld talent trees. One lets you do less damage but spread the attacks all around. and then one that lets you do massive one shots.
Peopel were talking about having a chosen feat style thing kinda like rangers right?
It would be cool to have the
melee,
nuker (carpet bombing)
and laser focused (one big shot a round) style..
Lots of people want different things from this class it seems like.
Some like me, love the idea of one element, with some tricks but focused damage.
and others love the carpet bombing idea as well
Might be hard to balance both in without making different wyld talent lines.
Morzadian wrote: Is it really necessary to be so offensive, to speak to a fellow poster like that.
So far the posters on this playtest forum have been amicable and polite to each other. And the playtest has benefited from such mutual respect.
There is always the Gaming Den (I'm sure Frank Trollman's followers will welcome such disrespectful behavior).
Was it really necessary for him to ignore any of the math that's been done on what he's attempting to talk about, refuse to check his facts at all and provide faulty data to back up a claim that's blatantly false, and attempt to discuss something that he very clearly neither understands nor can be bothered to take the time to look at with more than a cursory glance?
For that matter, was it necessary for you to disregard any sort of the actual content of the posts I've made simply because you view them as disrespectful despite having actual points in them, which I've backed up with information that proves exactly what I've said? Not to mention that every other playtest that's been done, theorycrafting too, has said exactly what I've been saying.
I'm sorry that I might get a bit heated here, but the fact that people are blatantly ignoring any of the issues that the class has and attempting to hide behind the shield of accusing people of minmaxing rubs me the wrong way entirely. To anyone that I might have been disrespectful for, I'm sorry that you were offended, but the points that I've made have been entirely valid thus far. I've looked into it and given you step-by-step breakdowns of the math behind it, and provided examples disproving what Artanthos attempted to lie about in order to discredit any argument I might make.
For the sake of the quality of the game, actually read through what I post. Look at the arguments made. Look at the math and examples backing them up. Please, feel free to disprove them. In fact, I encourage you to do exactly that. I would love nothing more than to see someone point out to me a way for this class to be not only flavorful, but actually good. Show me the math and facts that prove your point that it can do respectable damage. Show me where the utility it gets comes from. I will eagerly, gladly await seeing it.
But if, as has happened thus far, you're going to look at the arguments and points laid out and supported before you, and do nothing more than claim that they don't exist, aren't valid, or discredit them by waving them off as claiming to, as Artanthos attempted, say that they're attempts to make a broken class? Then I can do nothing more than to ask you to stop posting and leave the discussion, because you're contributing nothing helpful to it on either side. If you are going to get involved in a playtest and willingly discuss it, you are under an obligation to read the information provided to you and to understand what you are talking about. Not doing so is disrespectful not only to the people that you're talking with, but to the developers themselves and the material itself, not to even touch on it reflecting poorly on you for not taking the time to understand what you're talking about. It shows a severe lack of any caring or respect for the material being discussed or the people making it, and a disregard for the effort put into making it.
I'm excited for this class and, quite simply, this is the sort of class that I've been looking to find for almost the entire time that I've been playing D&D, in any of it's various interpretations. I enjoy this game immensely, both as a player and a GM, and it is because of that that I'm here now and attempting to be involved in this playtest. It would not be inaccurate to say that this game is somewhat of a passion of mine.
The Kineticist, and the other classes in this book, are extremely flavorful and are, from a fluff standpoint and as a basic mechanical concept, very well thought out so far. But that said, they are not as good as they can be currently. There are issues with all of the involved classes, and many people have attempted to point them out so that they can be addressed and fixed. My wish in all of this is not to make a class that will shatter the balance of the game, but to allow a class which many people enjoy from a flavor standpoint to be a viable, helpful addition to the game so that it can get enjoyed. With tweaks to the mechanics, and testing of those tweaks to see how it works out and compares to other classes, the class could very well become something that's truly well-made and will stand point as good design. It's nearly there now, on some levels. But if we truly do care about this game, and more specifically about this class, does that not mean that we have some form of duty to work for the refinement and improving of it to fit it's intended role and function, both as a community aiding eachother, and as people who want to see this class be enjoyable to play and not just as a flavorful concept?
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