General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Scarab Sages

Dexion1619 wrote:
Actually, all Kineticist go DEX instead of STR from level 1. If you're going to go Melee, you pick up Combat Casting instead of Point Blank, and Weapon Finesse instead of Precise shot.

Fair enough, though you wouldn't be able to use non-light one-handed melee weapons created through kinetic blade. (Which doesn't seem to have any game impact right now, but I imagine might change when they rewrite the power, as seems inevitable).


I also agree that the expanded elements are quite boring. With the exception of fire (whose main distinction is "Twice as much"), all of them are basically identical 1d6+1+1d6 blasts.


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Insain Dragoon wrote:
Personally I would prefer if Expanded Element was a class feature at 7th level then a Wild Talent at 15th. It would also solve the disjointedness problem Shaka noted about composite blasts.

Agreed,

They need a power spike around that level.


I have been thinking about the "Burn" mechanic, and while I have not played with the class yet.

I quite like the concept and really drives home the flavor of the class.

What I can see that brings the cost of the burn down is instead of scaling it off the users Hit Dice/Character level that it does currently, instead scale it off the user Con Mod, now to stop this from scaling to a degree greater than it does currently max out the cost equal to the users Hit Dice/Character Level, this means a level 1 character is not shafted by the Burn cost for having like a +4 mod.

Now to offset this you keep the part where you cannot spend more burn than your con mod, meaning you can't "burn" if you have no Con Mod.

---

Also while people have been talking about the utility of the class, more will not go amiss (Add my voice to the 4+Int Skill ranks), a few things I want to discuss is the Concentration and maximum burn that can be spent in a round. To me this feels like unneeded book keeping and restriction on the class, like it feels very much like a class that can "nova" very well and I think that too a degree you should allow it.

Another thing that bugs me is that new options become available to the Kineticist at levels 1, 6, 10 and 16. Which to me feels kind of odd and off balance, why not something more linear like 1, 5, 10 & 15?

The other thing is the concentration checks, for a designated blaster whom is designed for combat this feels very odd that the class has no way to address this, and too be honest I don't see what exactly it adds to the class, the AoO you will be provoking (Assuming not using the Kinetic Blade etc.) will be hard enough as it is on the Kineticist. Also the whole spell level of abilities does not help make things easy on the player. I feel you can make the class more interesting through giving it a variety of ways to interact with the battlefield.

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Also a note on the Kinetic blade the "...for telekineticists, you transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand." is very awkward as having something in the off hand means you cant also spend move actions to reduce the burn cost of abilities as it requires to have both hands free, also having the specific restriction for a single "element" like that is just a terrible idea, even if it makes flavor sense, as it any new elements are introduced that should have this restriction for flavor you can't exactly errata it every time, and also it does not really add anything outside of text to the ability.


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I second the idea of having a free infusion and a free utility power at first level.

I've been thinking of the purpose of forbidding the use of gather power on non-infusion talents. It seems needed to prevent overuse of the healing talent and similar ones.
I propose this: the first healing on a creature in 24h period is free, and each subsequent use on the same creature has an increasing cost of 1 burn, as the body reaches its limits to heal. That way, we could use gather power for all talents, and the ones that should be restricted could follow the same mechanic.

About burn: I am not against the burn mechanic, as it can provide very interesting roleplaying. I only think it the class should have a safe reserve before tapping on its life power. A reserve of 1/2 level + Con bonus should do the trick, as it would represent the training and advancement of the kineticist at channeling his power.


Heladriell wrote:

I second the idea of having a free infusion and a free utility power at first level.

I've been thinking of the purpose of forbidding the use of gather power on non-infusion talents. It seems needed to prevent overuse of the healing talent and similar ones.
I propose this: the first healing on a creature in 24h period is free, and each subsequent use on the same creature has an increasing cost of 1 burn, as the body reaches its limits to heal. That way, we could use gather power for all talents, and the ones that should be restricted could follow the same mechanic.

About burn: I am not against the burn mechanic, as it can provide very interesting roleplaying. I only think it the class should have a safe reserve before tapping on its life power. A reserve of 1/2 level + Con bonus should do the trick, as it would represent the training and advancement of the kineticist at channeling his power.

Possible, then we are looking at the Kineticist having a Fighter chassis, powerful straight out the gates.

Keeping the Kineticist with a Wizard chassis: a free infusion and free utility power at 3rd level?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, could Telekinetic Blast, be used with something like, a fistful of marbles, or sand?

Would it have to be a single marble, or grain of sand?

Scarab Sages

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Morzadian wrote:

Possible, then we are looking at the Kineticist having a Fighter chassis, powerful straight out the gates.

Keeping the Kineticist with a Wizard chassis: a free infusion and free utility power at 3rd level?

Giving it at first level isn't that problematical - unlike a fighter, dipping into Kineticist for one level really doesn't buy you anything. The infusions don't stack with class abilities from any other class, and the 1st level utility powers are all pretty weak (for example, the best option for Water is a down-powered version of grease). Fighters, by contrast, can be dipped into by any melee class that needs a fast feat or two and/or proficiencies.

I only suggested the notion because at 1st level, you're literally a one-trick pony if you take an infusion as your first level Wild Talent. Which is incredibly boring to play. And you can't even take feats, like most classes can, to boost your options. Improved Trip, Rapid Shot, etc. - none of those options work with the Kineticists' abilities.

I just finished reading through the whole thread after I made my post, (so I wouldn't be influenced by the thoughts of others). The best idea I saw in the whole thread would be to give elemental manipulation to all the kineticists for free. Maybe at 2nd level give all of them kinetic barrier, at 4th their respective move element (a 5' cube of material per round, or a dust cloud for Air), at 6th control water/pyrotechnics/etc, 8th elemental resistance, something like that.

In other words, I think they should have more options in combat than hitting one button called "BLAST" over and over. Being able to dynamically throw up weak barriers or occlude squares of terrain would be pretty simple to implement, really neat, and lead to interesting combat options for them.

Silver Crusade

Here's one more I just thought up as I'm prepping a character to start playtesting it later today at PFS...

Telekinetic Haul - can this be used on a willing creature as well as an object? If not, I perhaps forsee my PC saying "sit on top of that block of stone and hold on tight" before lifting it up (with another PC on top of it) and telekinetically moving it (plus passenger) wherever desired.

(I've got my PC almost 100% figured out including a fun RP/backstory - just trying to debate on Telekinetic Haul vs Foe Throw, 1-2 feats, traits, and then he's done!)


Thinking about the class concept:

The kineticist uses constitution to manifest his powers and dexterity to aim them right. This means that a kineticist maight be as dumb as a rock and he will still have the same powers. His intellect, awareness and confidence play no part in his development. Therefore we can understand that the advancement in this class is a result from physical training, as the kineticist expand his body's capacity.

Based on this concept, one might ask "how is this done?". We have actually several real world examples that fit he occult theme of the book. Yogis have been known to train their bodies to extremes, some kung fu traditions can produce heat from their hands, monastic orders engage in weird diets and physical exercise in hopes of achieving supernatural feats.

The concept fits like a glove with martial traditions, but the class has yet to back that with features. That kind of body training would not produce a body with medium resistance (d8 HD), or lack of familiarity with with combat (weapon proficiencies) and physical activities (climb, swim, acrobatics). Clearly there is an effort to distantiate the class from the Qinggong Monk and the Monk of Four Winds, and really every class should feel unique.

I would guess that the current idea is to provide those options in archetypes, as it has been done before. However, I think that the base class should also feel complete an coherent with a concept. Would suggest then, the following:

1- Give this class a higher HD. It would represent the hard training that is needed to master its own body;

2- Give the class the option to chose a martial tradition, a combat style is a good way, as suggested in a previous post;

3- Give the class training in physical skills ans well as in one knowledge, representing the mystical tradition that it may follow or study to understand its powers;

4- Meditation and rigorous training provide clarity and peace of mind. The Still Mind monk class feature would fit well, reducing the vulnerability the class suffers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Petty Alchemy wrote:

I find it amusing that the Kineticist topic has 930 posts, while all the other classes combined have 678.

People (myself included) really want this to be as great as it can be.

Given that it's the calass that introduces the most in new mechanics, it should not be surprising that this is so.


Are all blasts subject to SR or just the energy based ones?


My player has just made Azula (he called her Azura -- dang, now I just have to put in the Annoying Fan.)

We played for about an hour and then we had to head to bed. I tried to create a combat encounter, but the enemy got everyone scared on an Intimidate roll. So, the Kineticist hasn't been playtested by my group yet.


Based on so far creating a first through 20th character progression model of a pure Aetherist, I'd like to see more substance infusion availability to Aetherists. More clear wording on what constitutes things to throw around. An option for not having things to throw around, such as half damage pure force. Clear errata on throwing a vial of explosive (I know it won't detonate, but does the damage dealt to the thrown object destroy it or can it be arrowed the next round to set it off?). I also see a clear solution to the Fire Elemental problem for pyrokineticists, fire shape is woefully situational for some DMs, I've been in a burning building with mine like 3 times in 5 years. Give that a power up at certain levels to put out fires, grow fires, affect magical fires, use CMB maneuvers against creatures made of fire, and eventually put out creatures made of fire. This being still far less effective than regular methods, clearly left a weak point, but not so helpless a situation. I control fire, I shouldn't be mauled by something that I should easily pick up and toss across the room with my mind. Ice/water should pull similar tricks like turning an ice elemental to water and back with will saves trickery.
As for touch vs regular attacks, I feel the easy answer is to use touch attacks to make it easy to hit things that are more likely to have resistance that mutes your impact, while regular attacks hit things that normally have a minimum amount of DR. Oh wait, I think they did. Probably a bit more attention there paid than most people guess. Could it be refined? Perhaps, it doesn't really address non resistant and non DR targets, and super armor low touch targets, but I feel that making your to-hit and damage ratio with every blast the same is really going to lead to a "pick your flavor and have some vanilla" situation. So perhaps a slight damage adjustment to touch attacks could solve the problem instead of dropping the attack bonuses on them or adding attack to the regular hits. Like D4 instead of D6, or strait dropping the +1 damage and making touch attacks xD6+CON only while regular attacks are xD6+x+CON.
I would also look at ride the blast outside of combat very closely, perhaps by making "living target" a wording choice in there somewhere. Or making it hit you for a D4 blunt force trauma when you suddenly stop at the end. It's still worth it in combat but now long range fast travel becomes a gold sucker for potions or wands.
Lastly, for this post at least, I'd consider making the expanded element available at 3, 8, 13, and 18. This gives us a viable Avatar option for 4 elements as a constant setup instead of as a not so worth it catch all rebuild at 20. For that matter, every time you pick a new base Blast you lose a talent for making your blasts more powerful. I see no reason to limit that Talent since if you pick it for every blast you gain a lot of versatility for your basic "damage in 30 feet" options, but lose many infusions that make your blast worth using. That's a player choice that I can see at worst being overused by a poor sheet builder to the point of underpowered. It certainly doesn't seem to be a vast overpower outside of very early levels. I'd suggest a "lvl 6 requirement and this feet may be taken multiple times, applying to a new blast each time" approach.

Scarab Sages

Insain Dragoon wrote:

That depends on the gear slot.

My *Insert Martial here* isn't required to throw away his Ring of Protection to get his enhancement bonus to attack and damage.

My *Insert caster here* isn't required to throw away his Cloak of Resistance to use his Metamagic Rod.

My Monk or Brawler shouldn't need to throw away his Amulet of Natural Armor to buy an enhancement bonus for his unarmed strikes that's twice as expensive as a weapon thus becoming a double handicap.

My Kineticist should not have to make the same handicapping decision that a Monk needs to.

I posted an idea for Kinetic Bracers earlier in the thread. Bracers are an item slot most people don't stress over and are thematically appropriate.


Dragon78 wrote:
Are all blasts subject to SR or just the energy based ones?

I think touch attack blasts are subject to SR, whereas normal ranged blasts aren't

Peter

Edit: 3 more things

1) Are kinetic blades a free action as part of a full attack/attack option? (i've seen the post, I just can't remember where it is) Then you wouldn't have to make a concentration check to use them (per swift-spell rules) correct?

1b) Also, since kinetic blades are part of a full attack/attack action you can use the vital strike tree for attacking just once, correct?

2) A quick observation: Blasts are Spell-like abilities, so per the FAQ on Vital Strike, you cannot use vital strike on blasts.

Peter

Scarab Sages

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Peter nielson wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
Are all blasts subject to SR or just the energy based ones?

I think touch ones are subject to SR, whereas AC ones aren't

Peter

This is correct, only the touch-based blasts are affected by SR.


Fooma wrote:

With regard to the Water type Wild Talent: Slick. When it says it can use the slick for any of the effects of Grease, what is the area of the slick? Is it a 5 foot area, or is it a 10 foot area like Grease?

Also, what is it's range? It's not a "Blast" Wild Talent so I don't see that it's tied to a blast range or extended range.

I apologize for quoting my own post, but was this answered previously in the thread? My main concern is the area of the effect (10' like Grease?) and the spell range (25+5/2lv)?


So I may have missed this in the ten pages of discussion, but a line about the Aether blast leaves me with a question.

Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack does not use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist’s blast damage.

If the object is a special material, does it still count against DR?

Grand Lodge

A few things about this class...

First, I really love the idea behind it! It's awesome and amazing and feels like a really great "artillery" class.

Second, I'm in agreement with everyone else about the 4+Int skill points. Also, why not just give them all Knowledge: Nature and change that bonus skill to something else. As it is, they don't get any knowledges for free, across the board.

Third, why not give an infusion like Holy Water/Flame/Sacred Ground/etc that lets them overcome alignment based DR?

Lastly, It seems to me that a golem would shut these guys down completely. At least with a wizard/cleric/sorceror/etc, they have other versatility with things like shaping the battlefield/buffing their allies/etc.


I was just wondering, shouldn't there be a second Earth strike ability involving acid? That one would be a Ranged Touch Attack and do 1d6 damage per level and be effected by resistance.


RogueMortal wrote:

So I may have missed this in the ten pages of discussion, but a line about the Aether blast leaves me with a question.

Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack does not use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist’s blast damage.

If the object is a special material, does it still count against DR?

Already been asked and answered

:(

Peter


Peter nielson wrote:
RogueMortal wrote:

So I may have missed this in the ten pages of discussion, but a line about the Aether blast leaves me with a question.

Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack does not use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist’s blast damage.

If the object is a special material, does it still count against DR?

Already been asked and answered

:(

Peter

Welp, that bites. Thanks for pointing me to it though!

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

What trade off is there between the physical blasts and the energy blasts? What action are they?


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Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cyrad wrote:
What trade off is there between the physical blasts and the energy blasts? What action are they?

Physical Blasts

Cons: Hits normal AC, subject to damage reduction.
Pros: Deals more damage, not subject to energy resistance/immunity or spell resistance.

Energy Blasts
Cons: Deals less damage, subject to energy resistance/immunity and spell resistance.
Pros: Hits touch AC, not subject to damage reduction.

Using your blast is a standard action.

Shadow Lodge

While reading the kineticist...

One aether infusion says it works like mage hand but it works also for magic items

It may be a very corner case but SPHERES OF ULTIMATE ANHALATION are also magic items

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Ah, so physical blasts do Xd6 + X + Con modifier whereas energy blasts do Xd6 + 1/2 Con modifier where X equals the number of odd levels you have.


Ryu_Hitome wrote:

A few things about this class...

First, I really love the idea behind it! It's awesome and amazing and feels like a really great "artillery" class.

Second, I'm in agreement with everyone else about the 4+Int skill points. Also, why not just give them all Knowledge: Nature and change that bonus skill to something else. As it is, they don't get any knowledges for free, across the board.

Third, why not give an infusion like Holy Water/Flame/Sacred Ground/etc that lets them overcome alignment based DR?

Lastly, It seems to me that a golem would shut these guys down completely. At least with a wizard/cleric/sorceror/etc, they have other versatility with things like shaping the battlefield/buffing their allies/etc.

They can beat down a Golem with the non-touch stuff, as it doesn't allow SR. In theory. In reality, the DR would pretty much savage them.

Rynjin wrote:

I'll be honest, I actually missed that it was +1 every 3 levels after 5 until now, but even then the practical range of a game is 8-12 at the highest.

So you need to be 8th level to do something as simple as Entangle someone with your water without taking unhealable damage.

However, that does highly mitigate ONE problem with the class. Though again makes the disparity among the elements even more obvious.

At level 8 a water specialist can Entangle a foe for free, or hit everyone in a 30 ft. line, while Fire needs to be level 16 to get ANY real goodies, and what he does get at low levels amounts to "A little extra fire damage".

You need to be 5th level and spend a move action to Entangle someone with your water without eating Burn, strictly speaking.

Of course, most people seem to be leading off with Form Infusions, because Extended Range/Kinetic Blade are so very useful. Personally, I haven't found a single Substance Infusion I actually care about.

Rynjin wrote:

Not to harp on this (since it's being handled) but I'm building a Pyrokinetic I was hoping to play and find myself in the awkward situation of having NO Wild Talents I want to pick (that I (qualify for) before 6th, and waaay too many I'd love to have at 10th.

Fire essentially has Extended Range, Burning Infusion, and Fire Sculptor to choose from from 1-4 unless you want a melee build.

I'm thinking every Kineticist on the block is likely to want Kinetic Blade and Weapon Finesse, melee build or not. That said, the current Kineticist is basically forced into a melee build to make use of iteratives.

Insain Dragoon wrote:
Personally I would prefer if Expanded Element was a class feature at 7th level then a Wild Talent at 15th. It would also solve the disjointedness problem Shaka noted about composite blasts.

It actually was a class feature before the test, according to Mark, and was changed because it was pointed out some people might not want it.

Dragon78 wrote:
Are all blasts subject to SR or just the energy based ones?

Energy blasts: Hit Touch AC, subject to SR and Energy Resistance

Solid blasts: Hit regular AC, subject to DR.

ShakaUVM wrote:

1) I think the overall writeup should be re-jiggered to make it easier to understand. I had to read through everything several times to get a grasp on what was going on.

For example, the first thing you read about composite blasts is the Composite Specialization ability in the class description - at which point you have no idea what it is or what it means. So you flip to the section on Composite blasts, and see that they look like wild talents, even though they're not, but ones that require you to have multiple elements. But how do I get multiple elements? Is that a class ability? So you flip back to the front. Nope. Then you read through all the wild talents, and discover Expanded Element. Only after reading through the whole description of Expanded Element do you learn how you get Composite Blasts, and therefore what Composite Specialization is useful for.

There's a bunch of things like this.

Agreed. The bit where it makes Burn sound optional early on is the other big one in need of a rework; seen lots of confusion on that.

ShakaUVM wrote:

2) It's too much a one-trick pony at low levels. You only have a single simple blast until 7th level when pretty much everyone would take a second element. This means that until 7th level, if you're a pyro, you have absolutely nothing you can do if you encounter a monster with fire resistance, or something like a golem. Your whole class is disabled. Wizards and sorcerers don't have this problem - they can cast a glitterdust, or choose a different element or whatever. I think at a minimum, all kineticists should get one physical and one elemental simple blast so they can't be easily hard countered, or maybe make expanded element available at 1st level, but not able to take cross-element wild talents until 7th level.

My humble suggestion would be to start with one free infusion and one free utility ability.

To be honest it's a one-trick pony clean through to level 20. You get a few new ways to apply your trick, but it's still nothing but "Shoot them until they die". Hopefully, we'll get more utility abilities to compensate. Hopefully.

ShakaUVM wrote:
3) I'm making a kineticist in PFS solely for kinetic healing. They'll make better spot healers than clerics (1d6+5 healing at first level, much better than 1d8+1 from CLW) - not saying that's a bad thing, clerics are better at mass healing, and kineticists take burn if they can't spend a move action to gather power. It should also probably say if the range on it is melee touch, since "with a touch" could mean either melee touch or ranged touch.

Worth noting that it's supposed to be "Blast Wild Talent"; come final release we won't get free Kinetic Healing. Check the first page for that one.

ShakaUVM wrote:
4) Kinetic Blade/Fist/Whip right now are traps. You'll provoke AOOs every time you use them, and since your blasts scale in power as fast as you gain bonuses to concentration checks, you'll never be able to tap the rolls to cast defensively. They also don't seem to be the basis for a build until at least 5th level (when you can reduce form infusion burn cost by 1), and really not until 8th level (when you get a second attack from BAB). This is a problem since you have to pick your stats at 1st level - if you go high STR to be a melee kineticist, you're going to suck compared to a DEX kineticist until 8th level. If you go DEX kineticist, you're going to suck compared to a STR kineticist after 8th level (since ranged kineticists get no means to full attack). And STR kineticists only get STR to hit - they still use CON to damage. Going STR/DEX/CON is too multiple attribute dependent.

The defensive check is d20+Con mod+caster level vs. 15+2xspell level. Spell level scales exactly with Caster Level, so presuming you put some emphasis into your Con mod as you level, the concentration checks actually get easier. First level, with a Con of 18 you're looking at d20+5 vs. 17, so you're more likely to fail than not. 20th level, assuming you put +2 into Con from leveling (as Dex is important too), have a +6 belt, and read a book for +4, you're looking at d20+20+10 vs. 15+18=33. 10% chance to fail, so pretty rare. Add in an Otherworldly Kimono and it's literally impossible to fail.

Weapon Finesse solves the MAD issues. You should pretty much stay out of melee until 5th though, yes.

ShakaUVM wrote:
5) It should be clarified if "accepting burn" can be reduced by infusion specialization or gathering energy, or if that means you voluntarily accept burn.

Given context it's pretty clear that "accepting burn" means you use some ability that has a Burn effect and you don't negate it.

ShakaUVM wrote:
6) I've been eyeballing the various saves-negates infusions, and can't say I'd ever take them. Burning infusion looks super good (boosting your damage effectively from 1d6+2 to 2d6+2), but adding a reflex negates onto the whole thing means that you'll have (let's say) a 50/50 chance of dealing no damage, and a 50/50 chance of dealing 63% more damage, meaning the infusion leads to a net loss in damage per round. If the "reflex negates" is for just the bonus effect, it *really needs to say that clearly* after the section header on infusions.

Fairly certain Reflex/Fort/whatever only negates the actual substance infusion. They're still not really great, admittedly.

ShakaUVM wrote:
7) Pressurized blast and pushing infusion shouldn't cap at just 5' of forced movement.

Agreed.

ShakaUVM wrote:

8) There's a few area effect abilities that deal half damage with another half damage with a reflex save (Cyclone, Spray, Torrent). That's pretty terrible. A 10th level wizard deals 10d6 (35 damage, save for half) with a 40' diameter fireball, but a hydrokineticist with cold blast will deal (5d6+2)/2 - 10 damage (save for half) in a 30' cone, while accepting 0 to 3 burn. While it is true the hydrokineticist can do this all day long (if he can negate the burn) while the wizard is spending resources, 10 damage save for half is just abysmal damage for a 10th level character.

While on that note, AOE options are pretty bad overall, and shouldn't pyrokineticists get earlier access to AOE effects? Fire has to wait until 16th level to be able to "fireball", but Air gets it at 10th (along with chain lightning), Earth and Water can do line attacks starting at 6th, and Aether gets a double attack at 6th as well.

Yeah, the half damage on those really needs to go away. The save should be sufficient. Alternately, keep the AC roll and the half damage and drop the save, but that's a weird set of mechanics.

ShakaUVM wrote:
9) And yeah, Fire seems to be totally shafted. It has the worst simple blasts (and the worst composite blast - the only one with SR!), doesn't get AOE attacks until 16th level, and has to spend two wild talents and waste move actions every round to semi-replicate the ability to fly which Air gets at 6th level. Most people would intuitively think that Fire would be the best element if you wanted to blow stuff up, but they're really the worst at it. There is only one fire infusion below 16th level!

Yeah. Fire is currently end-loaded like all hell, and the end game is the worst time to be straight Fire anyway. That said, Mark's said we're getting more Wild Talents come final release. In theory Fire will get more stuff.

ShakaUVM wrote:
10) The composite blasts are all the same, as far as I can tell. You could replace them all with "burn 2; do both blast damages; SR No (unless you're fire)". I think there's a real opportunity there to do interesting things. Thunderstorm Blast could deafen! Mud blast could blind for a round, and so forth.

Agreed. Right now they're "things I basically ignore until level 15 when I can treat them as Super-Maximize, and my most recent build had no composites despite using Expanded Element. He'll probably wind up with a pair of Composites at 15th in the long run, admittedly.


The fact that they never get any better at taking burn is a little strange. Would it be off base if they got an ability around level six that reduced burn by their con modifier? I realize that would throw off your spreadsheet, but I feel like it makes sense that the act of taking burn should become something a kineticist gets better at.


Trogdar wrote:
The fact that they never get any better at taking burn is a little strange. Would it be off base if they got an ability around level six that reduced burn by their con modifier? I realize that would throw off your spreadsheet, but I feel like it makes sense that the act of taking burn should become something a kineticist gets better at.

Infusion Specialization.

Dark Archive

I couldn't find whatever arguments led to kinetic blade being limited to one attack per round, but I hope you'll reconsider. I'm very definitely a melee guy, and was super excited about the kineticist kinetic blade build I've been working on, but now I'm a little perplexed.

It seemed to me before that the point of the ability was to trade range and mobility for an increase in damage by allowing multiple blasts on a full attack. What exactly is the point of allowing it to work with a full attack if it takes up a hand but doesn't allow multiple attacks? Two-weapon fighting? That seems to be the only way to utilize it with the current errata, which is a huge feat tax for an infusion that is mostly downside on paper and comes with a burn cost. Especially, since that burn cost is harder to mitigate when you need to get to a creature and then spend full-round actions to damage it.

If the concern is that two or three melee attacks at full blast damage is too high, I'm sure some sort of compromise can be made for full attacks. Maybe each attack per round does half the damage of the previous one or something? I just think allowing this power only once per round with full attacks doesn't make any sense.

Silver Crusade

^ maybe a way of using Feel the Burn to "burn off" burn by focusing it outward? surrounded by a nimbus of light/sound/energy/element that gives off noise/light (i.e. no sneaking around for that PC), but with a limited duration of damage-bonus-to-blasts in exchange for "burning off" burn?


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Personally, for blast shapes like kinetic blade/fist/whip, I always presumed that since it was used as part of an attack or full-attack action, it was essentially a free action, and thus operated like casting a quickened spell, which doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Admittedly, I guess this could stand to be clarified, perhaps stating that it's a free action you can make before making an attack or full attack and doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, or specifying that it still counts as a normal use of your blast and as such still provokes attacks of opportunities?


Sigh... The Kineticist doesn't get better at taking burn because the Kineticist gets better at using her class features without taking burn.

This is starting to get frustrating. Don't freaking post until you understand how Infusion Specialization works, all right?


Benn Roe wrote:

I couldn't find whatever arguments led to kinetic blade being limited to one attack per round, but I hope you'll reconsider. I'm very definitely a melee guy, and was super excited about the kineticist kinetic blade build I've been working on, but now I'm a little perplexed.

It seemed to me before that the point of the ability was to trade range and mobility for an increase in damage by allowing multiple blasts on a full attack. What exactly is the point of allowing it to work with a full attack if it takes up a hand but doesn't allow multiple attacks? Two-weapon fighting? That seems to be the only way to utilize it with the current errata, which is a huge feat tax for an infusion that is mostly downside on paper and comes with a burn cost. Especially, since that burn cost is harder to mitigate when you need to get to a creature and then spend full-round actions to damage it.

If the concern is that two or three melee attacks at full blast damage is too high, I'm sure some sort of compromise can be made for full attacks. Maybe each attack per round does half the damage of the previous one or something? I just think allowing this power only once per round with full attacks doesn't make any sense.

Where are you getting the idea that using Kinetic Blade limits you to one attack? The text says the opposite, since you use Kinetic Blade "as part of an attack action or full-attack action", you can declare full attack, use Kinetic Blade, and attack as many times as you have Iteratives+Haste.


kestral287 wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
The fact that they never get any better at taking burn is a little strange. Would it be off base if they got an ability around level six that reduced burn by their con modifier? I realize that would throw off your spreadsheet, but I feel like it makes sense that the act of taking burn should become something a kineticist gets better at.
Infusion Specialization.

I know that specialization is a thing, but that doesn't make you better at taking burn, it just makes you better at avoiding it if you catch my meaning. Just strange how a high level character gets their clock cleaned when a first level character gets a light tap on the cheek.


Kestral287 wrote:
... snip
ShakaUVM wrote:


4) Kinetic Blade/Fist/Whip right now are traps. You'll provoke AOOs every time you use them, and since your blasts scale in power as fast as you gain bonuses to concentration checks, you'll never be able to tap the rolls to cast defensively. They also don't seem to be the basis for a build until at least 5th level (when you can reduce form infusion burn cost by 1), and really not until 8th level (when you get a second attack from BAB). This is a problem since you have to pick your stats at 1st level - if you go high STR to be a melee kineticist, you're going to suck compared to a DEX kineticist until 8th level. If you go DEX kineticist, you're going to suck compared to a STR kineticist after 8th level (since ranged kineticists get no means to full attack). And STR kineticists only get STR to hit - they still use CON to damage. Going STR/DEX/CON is too multiple attribute dependent.

The defensive check is d20+Con mod+caster level vs. 15+2xspell level. Spell level scales exactly with Caster Level, so presuming you put some emphasis into your Con mod as you level, the concentration checks actually get easier. First level, with a Con of 18 you're looking at d20+5 vs. 17, so you're more likely to fail than not. 20th level, assuming you put +2 into Con from leveling (as Dex is important too), have a +6 belt, and read a book for +4, you're looking at d20+20+10 vs. 15+18=33. 10% chance to fail, so pretty rare. Add in an Otherworldly Kimono and it's literally impossible to fail.

Weapon Finesse solves the MAD issues. You should pretty much stay out of melee until 5th though, yes.

Mark didn't exactly answer whether or not it's a free action here but he didn't deny that it was either...

If it is, then wouldn't this apply:

PRD wrote:
Attacks of Opportunity: Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the spell's level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

source

Peter

Paizo Employee Designer

Benn Roe wrote:

I couldn't find whatever arguments led to kinetic blade being limited to one attack per round, but I hope you'll reconsider. I'm very definitely a melee guy, and was super excited about the kineticist kinetic blade build I've been working on, but now I'm a little perplexed.

It seemed to me before that the point of the ability was to trade range and mobility for an increase in damage by allowing multiple blasts on a full attack. What exactly is the point of allowing it to work with a full attack if it takes up a hand but doesn't allow multiple attacks? Two-weapon fighting? That seems to be the only way to utilize it with the current errata, which is a huge feat tax for an infusion that is mostly downside on paper and comes with a burn cost. Especially, since that burn cost is harder to mitigate when you need to get to a creature and then spend full-round actions to damage it.

If the concern is that two or three melee attacks at full blast damage is too high, I'm sure some sort of compromise can be made for full attacks. Maybe each attack per round does half the damage of the previous one or something? I just think allowing this power only once per round with full attacks doesn't make any sense.

You can full attack for multiple attacks.


*cough* Mark! Could you say whether or not kinetic blades is a free action/swift action, so we have a link we can point to?*cough*


Trogdar wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
The fact that they never get any better at taking burn is a little strange. Would it be off base if they got an ability around level six that reduced burn by their con modifier? I realize that would throw off your spreadsheet, but I feel like it makes sense that the act of taking burn should become something a kineticist gets better at.
Infusion Specialization.
I know that specialization is a thing, but that doesn't make you better at taking burn, it just makes you better at avoiding it if you catch my meaning. Just strange how a high level character gets their clock cleaned when a first level character gets a light tap on the cheek.

Except that the higher level character has more HP over and above having more hit dice, since you have exactly two stats to focus on and one of them is Con.

I would fully expect that, after items, every 20th level Kineticist has something like Dex 30/Con 30. 30 Con vs. 18 Con = 6 more HP per level = you can handle 6 more Burn than the first level guy.

And then add in Toughness, and Favored Class, and if your GM is nice Finding Haleen (seriously, Kineticists love that trait even more than everybody else does).


Mark Seifter wrote:
Benn Roe wrote:

I couldn't find whatever arguments led to kinetic blade being limited to one attack per round, but I hope you'll reconsider. I'm very definitely a melee guy, and was super excited about the kineticist kinetic blade build I've been working on, but now I'm a little perplexed.

It seemed to me before that the point of the ability was to trade range and mobility for an increase in damage by allowing multiple blasts on a full attack. What exactly is the point of allowing it to work with a full attack if it takes up a hand but doesn't allow multiple attacks? Two-weapon fighting? That seems to be the only way to utilize it with the current errata, which is a huge feat tax for an infusion that is mostly downside on paper and comes with a burn cost. Especially, since that burn cost is harder to mitigate when you need to get to a creature and then spend full-round actions to damage it.

If the concern is that two or three melee attacks at full blast damage is too high, I'm sure some sort of compromise can be made for full attacks. Maybe each attack per round does half the damage of the previous one or something? I just think allowing this power only once per round with full attacks doesn't make any sense.

You can full attack for multiple attacks.

Does it provoke an AoO if you use Kinetic Blade without casting defensively? I'm about 80% sure you said no earlier in the thread but it's so big at this point it'd be a massive pain to go back and check, heheh. This would be a great thing to put in the OP either way.

Dark Archive

Mark Seifter wrote:
You can full attack for multiple attacks.

Sweet! It looks like you clarified it on the original post. Awesome. That makes a lot of sense, and makes me feel a lot better about this.


While that is all true, I don't see how it mitigates burn beyond spending as many resources as possible on hit points. I guess I'll just have to focus on not using burn.


Trogdar wrote:
While that is all true, I don't see how it mitigates burn beyond spending as many resources as possible on hit points. I guess I'll just have to focus on not using burn.

That is exactly what you're supposed to do. I built a 14th level Geokineticist last night that uses a whopping zero burn on all of her wild talents. She only has to use burn when she's using Quicken SLA metamagic or Sandstorm Blast.

Speaking of which, I'd like to issue a related criticism to Feel the Burn. Now that I've taken a better look at Kineticist play I can say that it is very wrong for the Kineticist to rely on this class feature to keep up with the full BAB classes. The fact that you're only supposed to expend burn to nova is a strong argument for the Kineticist to have full BAB; otherwise, I have to find an excuse to expend burn earlier in the day and chop off 56 points of health just to have the same attack bonus as a Warrior. Feel the Burn as an extra bonus to keep up with Studied Target/Weapon Training etc. would be far more reasonable.


Trogdar wrote:
While that is all true, I don't see how it mitigates burn beyond spending as many resources as possible on hit points. I guess I'll just have to focus on not using burn.

... I'm really not sure what you want anymore.

Burn is mitigated, in the sense of you taking less, but Infusion Specialization and your move action (and to a lesser extent, Metakinetic Master)

Burn is mitigated, in the sense of it hurting less, by higher level characters having more HP. That's not just "spending as many resources as possible on hit points". A Kineticist spends resources on Con like a Wizard spends resources on Int. The Wizard isn't doing it for the skill points, he's doing it because his core class features use Int

How else does one mitigate Burn, beyond being able to handle more and not taking as much?


You don't loose your skills when you cast your highest level spells I guess.


I think what Trogdar is looking for is a way to "Suffer Burn" for the bonuses, but not necessarily take the full damage on all that Burn.


Im still not liking how some elements don't really blend well with composite blasts. Aether in particular seems hosed in this regard given it doesn't mix with ANY elements and its limited in forms and shapes it can make. So it almost forces you to take another element which you get no mixed blast options. and then at 15th you can either FINALLY get a composite blast by either picking yet ANOTHER element to gain a composite blast with maximum damage potential (and since we can all agree damage is this class's focus) or I can take my own Element for some blasts that work ok (The boost is nice) but I don't hit maximum potential damage. The telekinetic stuff is nifty and all but it doesn't compensate for loosing so much flexibility Throw foe is nice ( I can beat a F%%*&^ with another F^%^&% ! XD ) but its a lot easier to negate then preferred.


Just pointing out that if your taking burn at higher levels to benefit from feel the burn, you end up with the same hit point modifiers as everyone else, which means your investment in con only benefits you for fort saves, which are already strong. I would feel a little better about it if fort was their weak save. At least their modifier would be more important.


Trogdar wrote:
The fact that they never get any better at taking burn is a little strange. Would it be off base if they got an ability around level six that reduced burn by their con modifier? I realize that would throw off your spreadsheet, but I feel like it makes sense that the act of taking burn should become something a kineticist gets better at.

Blasted Windows, and that stupid :( saying something is wrong with my computer and needs to restart. But don't worry! Windows is gathering information!

Doesn't help it deleted my document I was typing a post up and then didn't remember the blasted thing >:|

Gotta do it all over again *grumble, grumble, grumble*

I'm going to run some numbers to see how well the Kineticist handles burn over time. Primarily, he does this by minimizing the Burn he's got, but I'm interested in seeing how well he handles the burn when the burn is unavoidable. I will do this by making 4 charts that will have a difference in each one.

Chart 1 will be a Kineticist with starting Con 10, no bonus hp, no additional con bonus either. Using average hp (4.5, max on level 1), I will measure what percent of his maximum burn damage is of his maximum hp.

Chart 2 will be starting Con 10, all ability score increases go to con, and a Belt of Con at level 5, upgrading at level 10 and 15.

Chart 3 will be the same as Chart 2, but with Toughness and FCB going to bonus hp.

Chart 4 will be like Chart 3, but it will have no increase in Con modifier from Chart 2.

Con 10:
Level 1 = 8 hp, burn 3, damage 3; 37.5% of max hp
Level 5 = 26 hp, burn 3, damage 15; ~57.69% of max hp
Level 10 = 48 hp, burn 3, damage 20; ~41.6% of max hp
Level 15 = 71 hp, burn 3, damage 45; ~63.38% of max hp
Level 20 = 93 hp, burn 3, damage 60; ~64.51% of max hp

Con 10 + Con increase:
Con 10/Level 1 = 8 hp, burn 3, damage 3; 37.5% of max hp
Con 13/Level 5 = 31 hp, burn 4, damage 20; 64.51~% of max hp
Con 16/Level 10 = 78 hp, burn 6, damage 60; ~76.92% of max hp
Con 19/Level 15 = 131 hp, burn 7, damage 105; ~80.15% of max hp
Con 21/Level 20 = 193 hp, burn 8, damage 160; ~82.9% of max hp

Con 10 + Con Increase/Bonus hp:
Bonus hp 4/Level 1 = 12 hp, burn 3, damage 3; % of max hp
Bonus hp 10/Level 5 = 41 hp, burn 4, damage 20; ~48.78% of max hp
Bonus hp 20/Level 10 = 98 hp, burn 6, damage 60; ~61.22% of max hp
Bonus hp 30/Level 15 = 161 hp, burn 7, damage 105; ~65.21% of max hp
Bonus hp 40/Level 20 = 233 hp, burn 8, damage 160; ~68.66% of max hp

Con 10 + Bonus hp:
Bonus hp 4/Level 1 = 8 hp, burn 3, damage 3; 37.5% of max hp
Bonus hp 10/Level 5 = 36 hp, burn 3, damage 15; ~41.66% of max hp
Bonus hp 20/Level 10 = 68 hp, burn 3, damage 30; ~44.11% of max hp
Bonus hp 30/Level 15 = 91 hp, burn 3, damage 45; ~49.45% of max hp
Bonus hp 40/Level 20 = 133hp, burn 3, damage 60; ~45.11% of max hp

Okay, wow, this tells a really interesting tale. Turns out, the best way to handle the inevitable burn you get as a kineticist is by not increasing your con bonus. Seek out all the bonus HP you can, but do it without increasing your con bonus beyond your start, because you will become less and less efficient at handling the burn. Even with only bonus HP, you still lose efficiency, just not as much as when you increase your Con bonus.

Mark, I have to say, is this intentional? By 20th level in charts 1, 2, and 3, your ability to handle the burn damage has been reduced by 50% or more! That seems kind of odd that, as you increase in levels, your ability to withstand damage is reduced. I know the key to handling 'The Burn' is by reducing incoming burn through Infusion Specialization and other things, but there are some things you can't reduce the burn for (like Kinetic Healer).

Really interesting little number crunching here (beyond Windows being an Asshat and letting Cosmo get inside!). If I made any math errors, or my method is faulty, please point it out.

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