General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Designer

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brad2411 wrote:
So I have a question about armor. Since it is a spell like ability and not a spell does spell failure from armor still apply?

You are set to wear armor for two reasons. 1) SLAs aren't affected. 2) Even if they were, these are psychic SLAs, and even psychic spells aren't affected!


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brad2411 wrote:
So I have a question about armor. Since it is a spell like ability and not a spell does spell failure from armor still apply?

Nope.

It's in the SLA description.

"Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component."


As far as burn goes.. I kind of feel like it should be tracked differently..

So it doesn't actually affect how much damage you can take from the enemy.
If it tracks itself you could change how it affects your character.

I kind of like the idea that if you burn yourself so much it goes over your max hp. You "burn" yourself. Either by taking chunks of your life off proper. Or I think it should cost you con damage.

This way you can burn some for big blasts, without neutering yourself for the whole day. But. If you had to you could actually burn your life down for more power. Taking con damage would reduce your HP amount, your DC's, and your damage. So it would be something you would have to be very careful about.

I feel like that would keep the idea of burn going, allow you to actually use Feel the Burn, without making you "one hit death" levels. But still keep how detrimental it can be..

depending on how lucky your are at hp rolls etc, taking your level in points per burn point taken you would still go through your non-detrimental stuff pretty quick but not tooo quick.

I might not mind an alternate rule set where if you crit on a nat 20 (only not expanded) on a blast you remove a burn but if you roll a 1 you get a burn. That would allow for some freeform burning and make it so your hesistant to just burn yourself to the edge of pain in the morning to get feel the burn power all day. but, you can still save yourself via anatural 20 ( again natural not just a crit via expanded critcal threat ranges)

Also not sure how that ratio would work once yo ucan start specializing heavily and reducing burn.. but it gives some really cool visuals to me

I.e. for simple example with not realistic stats
lv 10, with 80hp
I can take 7 burn points without it actually affecting my stats. but if i burn again (the 8th time)
I take con damage. which inturn more than likely lowers my maximum HP, damage, and DC's of some things.

I'm not sure whats fair after that though. Probabl yevery point of burn damage there after you lose another point of Con. Makes sense considering as it stands in the tcurrent system you would be dead already.

This way if ther eis some moment defining event. You can literally nearly burn yourself to nothing in order to accomplish it.

It could make for some amazing moments where you burn yourself to nothing holding of a horde to save a city in retreat or something.

Also being able to use the move action with one hand free intead of two is really a good idea. That way you could hold one weapon or a shield.
hell I'm hoping to use a buckler and hold a broken sword I use as my TK focus for the blade talents


Rynjin wrote:

Well, the class is kind of set up to use Burn frequently, since everything the class can do besides its basic blast and the senses/movements Talents cost Burn.

It's the only resource the class HAS. It's sort of like if using Favored Enemy cost the Ranger to drain 1 HP a round.

It doesn't use as much burn as you think, actually... It's easy to forget Infusion Specialization, I guess. I'm building a 14th level Geokineticist for a playtest run through a module and none of the talents I've taken cost me any burn. Metakinesis and Magma Blast cost me burn, but you can use Empower for free by spending your move action (basically making it the blaster Kineticist's full attack).

Looking at it some more, I see where Seifter is coming from and that burn really is a nova option that you aren't expected to use every round. We'll see how it shakes out when I play Tomb of the Iron Medusa next Friday.


Hey Mark, since you're poking about in here, any Chance of answering a question? Rare Metal is really bugging me. No matter how I run the numbers, it seems like you're always better just using two Metal Blasts instead of one Rare Metal. It's looking more and more like a trap option. Short of running into a LOT of DR 20 creatures at least. With anything else (15 and lower) you always come out ahead just blasting twice and eating the DR penalties.

The exception is if you put two specializations in substance I guess, but that eliminates mêlée as an option.


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The problem is all the cool stuff that isn't "I blast it" or "I blast it 50% harder" costs Burn.

Essentially, the Kineticist is the Fighter of "casters". It has one option it's expected to use "I hit it with an element".

The rest costs you a non-renewable resource that continually builds up and makes you progressively worse at basic survival throughout the day. At its core, it's a great idea executed in a way that makes it kind of boring, unfortunately.


Rynjin wrote:

Well, the class is kind of set up to use Burn frequently, since everything the class can do besides its basic blast and the senses/movements Talents cost Burn.

It's the only resource the class HAS. It's sort of like if using Favored Enemy cost the Ranger to drain 1 HP a round.

I agree,

Some of the Kineticist abilities need to work independently from the Burn mechanic.

Designer

Rynjin wrote:

The problem is all the cool stuff that isn't "I blast it" or "I blast it 50% harder" costs Burn.

Essentially, the Kineticist is the Fighter of "casters". It has one option it's expected to use "I hit it with an element".

The rest costs you a non-renewable resource that continually builds up and makes you progressively worse at basic survival throughout the day. At its core, it's a great idea executed in a way that makes it kind of boring, unfortunately.

I'm confused. Aren't the utility abilities except some of the defense upgrades and kinetic healer baseline 0 burn with the big ticket burn costs on blasts? I should check the file to see if something got reversed at some point. If so, a lot of things need to change!

EDIT: Whew! Just checked and everything seems right.


So, maybe this was answered before or is obvious but, Kinetic Blade/Whip: Does it provoke AoOs/need concentration checks?


I'm probably not the only one who has gotten so hung up trying to pound the class into specific combat niches that the utilities have been naglected.


Rynjin wrote:

The problem is all the cool stuff that isn't "I blast it" or "I blast it 50% harder" costs Burn.

Essentially, the Kineticist is the Fighter of "casters". It has one option it's expected to use "I hit it with an element".

The rest costs you a non-renewable resource that continually builds up and makes you progressively worse at basic survival throughout the day. At its core, it's a great idea executed in a way that makes it kind of boring, unfortunately.

??????

The utility talents generally don't cost burn? I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for. A Geokineticist gets free super-tremorsense that ignores all concealment (and I do mean ALL concealment; enemy hiding behind hard cover? Use Snaking Infusion on that, at 8th level you do it for free), a Hydrokineticist can grease at will at level 1.

If you're just unhappy the kineticist is sort of locked into being the hammer, a Hydrokineticist who uses Infusion Specialization on substance can make a great anvil. You can grease, you can entangle, you can stagger, and all of these can be done absolutely free if you exchange damage for the debuffing.

By the way, may I suggest a feat that functions as one point of the Infusion Specialization class feature? It'd be something you can only take once, but I think it would be great for substance kineticists to be able to take it and still do Extended Range for free.


Infusions like Extended Range (120 ft.) and Extreme Range (480 feet) could have a slight reduction in burn cost (burn 0/burn 1).

An Archer with a composite longbow has a range of 110 ft.

Otherwise i could see a feat tax (Far Shot feat) popping up. Depending on the AP and the party composition.

The blast needs to have advantages over arrows in specific situations.

If the combat style of the Kineticist is ranged attack, it makes sense that his ranged infusions are cheaper than his close combat ones.


Rynjin wrote:

Well, the class is kind of set up to use Burn frequently, since everything the class can do besides its basic blast and the senses/movements Talents cost Burn.

It's the only resource the class HAS. It's sort of like if using Favored Enemy cost the Ranger to drain 1 HP a round.

Except that you also get stuff to reduce burn?

Max-level, everything you do should cost 6 less Burn than it does baseline. From level 5 your Kinetic Blades and Extended Ranges are free.

Infusion Specialization is a godsend. Build around it.


Fiddled with my first self play test using averages, then rolling. Lv. 6 with 20 point buy, human. More to come, first one was straight forward one on one no environmental obstacles.

In any event, both were geokineticists (yes, I too am for that name) one was built for blasting and the other was built for stabbing ala kinetic blade. Had my blaster been given the dodge, in the averages, he'd have owned the lion, on chance is another matter of course.

I played melee build on chance (i.e rolling) and he won out, but got lucky in a couple instanes with a crit on the lion and the lion missing a few times. Not bad.

Here's what I found when doing this particular play test though. When building up my lv. 6 geokineticist, I was quite dissapointed at the lack of early cool options for an earth kineticist. However, I realize that there are likely more infusions in the works and that this lack of early, earth (and possibly other element) specific neat tricks. That being said, I ended up only really choosing different infusions when I got to lv. 6 infusions. Lv. 4 infusions seem to be non-existent. For now at least.

Defensive wise, one has to find a solid way to get their AC up. So they have to rely on DEX, Dodge, armor and the sorts. DR is there, and I'm glad it's an immediate action, but I've always been meh about DR for some reason.

Offensive, I like the blasts personally, however I do sort of wish that earth had a way to deal acid damage in some way. If only to help deal with things like a troll more permanently. But I guess there's always acid flasks and alchemist fires and eventual magma. Outside of the blasts and the kinetic blade, there wasn't much to do battlefield manipulation wise outside of throwing up a kinetic cover. I didn't bother with the push infusion as it didn't seem like it'd help only pushing 5ft at most. I sort of wish a geokineticist had some sort more battlefield control though. That'd be fun.

Designer

kestral287 wrote:

Except that you also get stuff to reduce burn?

Max-level, everything you do should cost 6 less Burn than it does baseline. From level 5 your Kinetic Blades and Extended Ranges are free.

Infusion Specialization is a godsend. Build around it.

This is part of why I really recommend playtesting the class, even if it's only a little bit. It can be easy to miss something you would have noticed in actual play, like Infusion Specialization, and then draw the wrong conclusions about the burn balance of the class. Shelyn knows, if you were supposed to just sit there and spend 8 burn to cast a magnetic sharding metal blast at level 17, well, first off that's more than you're allowed to spend on one blast (for the record, it would cost 2 burn, or just 1 with a move action; it is also a very fun and rather badass attack), secondly, yeah that'd be crazy bad.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

The problem is all the cool stuff that isn't "I blast it" or "I blast it 50% harder" costs Burn.

Essentially, the Kineticist is the Fighter of "casters". It has one option it's expected to use "I hit it with an element".

The rest costs you a non-renewable resource that continually builds up and makes you progressively worse at basic survival throughout the day. At its core, it's a great idea executed in a way that makes it kind of boring, unfortunately.

I'm confused. Aren't the utility abilities except some of the defense upgrades and kinetic healer baseline 0 burn with the big ticket burn costs on blasts? I should check the file to see if something got reversed at some point. If so, a lot of things need to change!

EDIT: Whew! Just checked and everything seems right.

Ehhhh, "Utility" is a bit of a stretch.

Essentially what each element has that costs no Burn:

-Two movement modes (of varying usefulness).

-One senses boost (of WILDLY varying usefulness).

-One general boost (also of wildly varying usefulness...Double range is so much more powerful than moving a square of fire).

-One debuff or defense oriented boost (also of varying usefulness).

-Various spell-likes that are of limited usefulness when using the free version (Elemental Body I and an elemental you need to spend your Move action on every round is not super great).

That's...not a whole lot of utility. Especially if your element is Fire (good movement, nigh useless extra sense, terrible wall of fire thing and general boost ability).

In addition, some come in at too high a level to be worthwhile (Level 10 for Elemental Body I?).

It just seems like there are a few main problems with the class:

1.) There's a huge disparity among the elements. Water in particular seems to get most of the goodies.

2.) The class is a bit lopsided when it comes to Burn. The class' main focus has a high cost/low reward ratio, while the minor boosts are free, but range from very good to very bad (ties back into #1).

3.) The class doesn't fulfill what seems to be its main purpose: An all day blaster, the equivalent of a "magic martial". It's not very good at it without Burn, and with Burn it becomes progressively worse at standing up in a fight, all for simply meeting the par set by classes that can perform similarly with less or no resources burned (until VERY high leveles when Quicken and Double Blast come into play).

That's just in my opinion, but many seem to agree. It's got a few minor issues as well (few skills, oddly chosen save) but those are the big ones.


At the risk of sounding real dumb, I'm trying to figure out when the Kineticist can choose a second element as so far as I understand it, the composite stuff requires a Kineticist to know 2 different ones. Or am I way off?

OH


Ornery Hobbit wrote:

At the risk of sounding real dumb, I'm trying to figure out when the Kineticist can choose a second element as so far as I understand it, the composite stuff requires a Kineticist to know 2 different ones. Or am I way off?

OH

It's when you pick up Expanded Element at 7th level. When you do, you automatically get any composite blasts you now qualify for (IE a Geokineticist with EE Fire can use the magma blast).


kestral287 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Well, the class is kind of set up to use Burn frequently, since everything the class can do besides its basic blast and the senses/movements Talents cost Burn.

It's the only resource the class HAS. It's sort of like if using Favored Enemy cost the Ranger to drain 1 HP a round.

Except that you also get stuff to reduce burn?

Max-level, everything you do should cost 6 less Burn than it does baseline. From level 5 your Kinetic Blades and Extended Ranges are free.

Infusion Specialization is a godsend. Build around it.

I'll be honest, I actually missed that it was +1 every 3 levels after 5 until now, but even then the practical range of a game is 8-12 at the highest.

So you need to be 8th level to do something as simple as Entangle someone with your water without taking unhealable damage.

However, that does highly mitigate ONE problem with the class. Though again makes the disparity among the elements even more obvious.

At level 8 a water specialist can Entangle a foe for free, or hit everyone in a 30 ft. line, while Fire needs to be level 16 to get ANY real goodies, and what he does get at low levels amounts to "A little extra fire damage".

Designer

@Rynjin--Yup, there will be more wild talents in the final. it's easy to miss, since there's roughly 1 million posts in this thread (OK more like 1000), but thanks to excellent playtest analysis so far, I'm certain that I'm focusing on getting some more badass stuff for fire.


I will not deny that Fire sucks majorly at the moment and needs to be buffed. Thus why my examples were taken from water and earth, haha. Fire's main purpose at the moment is to be an Expanded Element for an Earth or Aether Kineticist.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

The problem is all the cool stuff that isn't "I blast it" or "I blast it 50% harder" costs Burn.

Essentially, the Kineticist is the Fighter of "casters". It has one option it's expected to use "I hit it with an element".

The rest costs you a non-renewable resource that continually builds up and makes you progressively worse at basic survival throughout the day. At its core, it's a great idea executed in a way that makes it kind of boring, unfortunately.

??????

The utility talents generally don't cost burn? I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for. A Geokineticist gets free super-tremorsense that ignores all concealment (and I do mean ALL concealment; enemy hiding behind hard cover? Use Snaking Infusion on that, at 8th level you do it for free), a Hydrokineticist can grease at will at level 1.

If you're just unhappy the kineticist is sort of locked into being the hammer, a Hydrokineticist who uses Infusion Specialization on substance can make a great anvil. You can grease, you can entangle, you can stagger, and all of these can be done absolutely free if you exchange damage for the debuffing.

By the way, may I suggest a feat that functions as one point of the Infusion Specialization class feature? It'd be something you can only take once, but I think it would be great for substance kineticists to be able to take it and still do Extended Range for free.

Creating feats out of class abilities is a dangerous road (design-wise) especially with multi-classing.

Good point, I agree the Infusion Specialization makes a huge difference.

Sundering with Kinetic Blasts:

I'm still unsure about if the Rare Metal infusion should bypass Adamantine, silver and cold iron I'm fine with.

Does it mean a Kineticist blast can rip straight through the hardness of magical shields? Because an Adamantine weapon can do it? Although adamantine arrows can't sunder. Brings forth possible scenarios of a Kineticist obliterating the armor, shields and weapons of a enemy warband at long range.


Just to make sure, since there are 20 pages in the thread now and I'm not sure I could find it again since I feel it's been mentioned (sorry to ask again if it was asked...). With Infusion Specialization, it says "reduces the burn cost of whichever type of infusion she selects by 1 point." Does that mean a specific infusion like Snaking or Many Throw? Or does it mean 1 less point needed for Form or Substance infusion.

Designer

Third Mind wrote:
Just to make sure, since there are 20 pages in the thread now and I'm not sure I could find it again since I feel it's been mentioned (sorry to ask again if it was asked...). With Infusion Specialization, it says "reduces the burn cost of whichever type of infusion she selects by 1 point." Does that mean a specific infusion like Snaking or Many Throw? Or does it mean 1 less point needed for Form or Substance infusion.

The latter. Much more awesome that way!


Mark Seifter wrote wrote:
The latter. Much more awesome that way!

That it is. Having to do one less burn point for all Form or Substance infusions each time is quite a relief on builds I would think.


Question, when you use the ability to gather energy to reduce your burn by one, it says you use "both hands". Can I assume this means 2 hands? This becomes important if I have a Kineticist with 3+ arms (alchemist, Kasatha, Mutant, ect).

Designer

graystone wrote:
Question, when you use the ability to gather energy to reduce your burn by one, it says you use "both hands". Can I assume this means 2 hands? This becomes important if I have a Kineticist with 3+ arms (alchemist, Kasatha, Mutant, ect).

Yes, you use 2 hands!


Not to harp on this (since it's being handled) but I'm building a Pyrokinetic I was hoping to play and find myself in the awkward situation of having NO Wild Talents I want to pick (that I (qualify for) before 6th, and waaay too many I'd love to have at 10th.

Fire essentially has Extended Range, Burning Infusion, and Fire Sculptor to choose from from 1-4 unless you want a melee build.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Third Mind wrote:
Just to make sure, since there are 20 pages in the thread now and I'm not sure I could find it again since I feel it's been mentioned (sorry to ask again if it was asked...). With Infusion Specialization, it says "reduces the burn cost of whichever type of infusion she selects by 1 point." Does that mean a specific infusion like Snaking or Many Throw? Or does it mean 1 less point needed for Form or Substance infusion.
The latter. Much more awesome that way!

Woah! Seriously? I already liked Infusion Specialization, but now it's just... awesome!

This is good to know.

Designer

Rynjin wrote:

Not to harp on this (since it's being handled) but I'm building a Pyrokinetic I was hoping to play and find myself in the awkward situation of having NO Wild Talents I want to pick (that I (qualify for) before 6th, and waaay too many I'd love to have at 10th.

Fire essentially has Extended Range, Burning Infusion, and Fire Sculptor to choose from from 1-4 unless you want a melee build.

I am glad to tempt you with those juicy higher-level talents. Rest assured, more talents, including low level talents, are going to help you get your flame on!


16th level for Explosion and Pure Flame Infusion seems way too high IMO.

For non-Fire related feedback, Extra Wild Talent is far too limiting. Should just be "Any Wild Talent you qualify for". Not sure why you need to limit it to a step lower.


Rynjin wrote:

16th level for Explosion and Pure Flame Infusion seems way too high IMO.

For non-Fire related feedback, Extra Wild Talent is far too limiting. Should just be "Any Wild Talent you qualify for". Not sure why you need to limit it to a step lower.

To make an argument against the 'any you qualify for,' consider the fact that if it was like that you could have access to 3 elements at level 7, 4 at level 8, and then all 5 at level 9. When I was making the build I'm hopefully going to playtest tomorrow I made the mistake of misreading the feat, and had to go back to the drawing board with it.

I'd say open it up to 'any you qualify for except Expanded Element,' but with Mark's comment that we're going to be getting more low-level Wild Talents I think we're going to be in good shape. Right now the issue isn't so much that the feat is limiting, its that our options that we can choose from are limited.


I still think any you qualify for (which wouldn't be Expanded Element multiple times since that has a prereq of 7th and then 15th level) works fine. That's pretty much how all the other "Extra X" things work, and none of the Wild Talents are more powerful than many Discoveries, Hexes, Rage Powers, and so on that it warrants the extra restriction.

Grand Lodge

I am not sure I am comfortable with the "psychic" type spell-like abilities.

With "psychic" spells, will we have "psychic" Potions, Scrolls, and other magic items?

How will certain abilities/feats/class features that apply to arcane/divine differently, treat these "psychic" spells?


Rynjin wrote:
I still think any you qualify for (which wouldn't be Expanded Element multiple times since that has a prereq of 7th and then 15th level) works fine. That's pretty much how all the other "Extra X" things work, and none of the Wild Talents are more powerful than many Discoveries, Hexes, Rage Powers, and so on that it warrants the extra restriction.

You're right, I completely forgot Expanded Element was already locked down in regards to taking it twice. I suppose having access to the higher-level wild talents would make sense then.


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Ok, so someone mentioned an "Amulet of Mighty Blasting" and I must put an IMMEDIATE objection to the concept of that.

Anything that effects attacks by adding an enhancement bonus like a weapon should be treated like a weapon, not as a wondrous item that eats up a wondrous item slot.

Gauntlets makes sense, some ability to siphon enhancement bonuses from a weapon make sense, a *item* you hold in your hand to channel your power makes sense, but taking up the very important neck slot is a terrible idea. The Amulet of Mighty Fists was a huge mistake and it should not be repeated with the Kineticist.

Dark Archive

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Ok, so someone mentioned an "Amulet of Mighty Blasting" and I must put an IMMEDIATE objection to the concept of that.

Anything that effects attacks by adding an enhancement bonus like a weapon should be treated like a weapon, not as a wondrous item that eats up a wondrous item slot.

Gauntlets makes sense, some ability to siphon enhancement bonuses from a weapon make sense, a *item* you hold in your hand to channel your power makes sense, but taking up the very important neck slot is a terrible idea. The Amulet of Mighty Fists was a huge mistake and it should not be repeated with the Kineticist.

How about a mantle of gathered energy. It allows you to gather a certain amount of energy to be used late (like 1 or 2 burn points) or you can gather energy as a swift action. lastly you gather 2 points of burn instead of just 1?


mark you said to post any insane builds we came up with well I think this qualifies, if my 2 assumption are correct. and sorry for the massive text

lvl 20 human geokineticist + hydrokineticist

health 409 (309*) (69 health if I used 17 burn)
DR 10/adimantine (flesh of stone)
* accounting for daily burn
initiative: +10

str 14
dex 18 (+2 snake skin tunic, -2 greater water kinetic form)
con 38 (+9 greater water kinetic form,+8 belt of con,+5 level increase, +1 manual of health)
int 18 (+6 headband)
cha 8

AC 37= 8(mytrhil chain shirt+4 )+(9 water shroud 3 burn)+ 4(dex)+6(natural armor from greater kinetic form 2 burn)

feats in order
point blank, precise shot,tribal scars (raptor scales), toughness, weapon finesse, *vital strike, weapon focus (blast), improved intiative, extra wild talent (expanded defense (water)), extra wild talent (your pick), *improved vital strike

* made under the assumption the bold print qualifies it for vital strike, Earth Blast (Sp): You shape earth into clumps or jagged
shards and send it f lying at a foe as a ranged attack

total burn per day 16*
*assuming we used 5 in the morning buffing and to grant feel the burn
infusion specilization: 2x form, 2x substance
metakiniesis master: empower

infusion by level
1: pushing infusion
2: extended range
4: kinetic blade
6: extreme range
7: expanded element earth
8: kinetic whip
10: ride the blast
12: kinetic form
14: move earth
15x2: expanded element (water), expanded defense (water)
16: greater kinetic form
17: your pick
18: your pick
20: your pick

attacks:
metal blast +move action
attack bonus 26 (15 lvl +4 dex +6 feel the burn +1 bracers of falcon's aim +1 weapon focus)
range 480
damage: 20d6+39(+20 composite,+14 con,+6 feel the burn) +10d6(empower) +40d6(improved vital strike)
damage total: 70d6+39 avg dmg ~285 for zero burn

move action+maximized+double*+metal(+round to buff) blast (can do this twice a day)
attack bonus 26(46)(+20 wand of true strike)
range 480
damage: 70d6+39 X2
damage total: 918 before a crit for 6 burn
damage total crit: 1140
damage total double crit: 1360

this would kill anything short of the devil himself outright. double crit would kill the devil himself
*(not sure i could vital strike on a double blast)

my suggestion; don't give kineticist vital strike on blast unless a wizard/alchemist/ranger can match this


That depends on the gear slot.

My *Insert Martial here* isn't required to throw away his Ring of Protection to get his enhancement bonus to attack and damage.

My *Insert caster here* isn't required to throw away his Cloak of Resistance to use his Metamagic Rod.

My Monk or Brawler shouldn't need to throw away his Amulet of Natural Armor to buy an enhancement bonus for his unarmed strikes that's twice as expensive as a weapon thus becoming a double handicap.

My Kineticist should not have to make the same handicapping decision that a Monk needs to.

Silver Crusade

Just a gentle bump to This post that I think got lost in the shuffle.

Also, would I be correct in that Expanded Defense is pretty useless if you double down on your original element?

Lastly, am I reading correctly that you get composite blasts for free once you take Expanded Element?

Thanks!


I have not really had a chance to drill down in depth on the kineticist, but I am disappointed in general for the reasons that have been outlined throughout this thread, since the kineticist at least ostensibly fulfills so many character concepts that were prohibitively difficult before.

I think that the 0 Burn "utility" infusions should be given separately from the more damage oriented infusions to allow the kineticist the ability to get that utility without taking away from their already precarious combat effectiveness.

The thing I actually like most about the kineticist is that there is a huge amount of room here for archetypes, some of which can serve to fill some of the concept gaps in the class. I am thinking a fire-based archetype which can iteratively attack with their balsts, or a telekinesis archetype that allows you to move creatures around the battlefield. Maybe even an earth kinetecist who gets more refined abilities to manipulate metal.

Dark Archive

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Mike Bramnik wrote:

Just a gentle bump to This post that I think got lost in the shuffle.

Also, would I be correct in that Expanded Defense is pretty useless if you double down on your original element?

Lastly, am I reading correctly that you get composite blasts for free once you take Expanded Element?

Thanks!

Expanded Defense can't be taken if you select your element for expanded.

And yes you get composites blast as long as you have the correct elements/prerequisites.

Edit: We have not been told if metamagic feats affect the blast. at least not that I have seen but because of us getting metamagc abilities built into the class I would say no plus as they are Spell like abilities you would have to use the metamagics for them i.e. quicken spell like ability


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You know, it's a good thing that the move action burn reduction was clarified to only function with 'blast' wild talents, because, as written, it would work with the Telekinetics Defense Ward for an infinite supply of temporary HP that stacks with each other.

By the way, Mark, Foe Throw and Many Throw, is there any chance we can get a feat or Wild Talent so these can be used together? I giggled at the thought of being able to pick up multiple enemies and throw them at other enemies. Unfortunately, both are Form Infusions.

Anyway, I have a build (but not character sheet), for a Telekinetic 12/Monk (Master of Many Styles) 1. I don't think he's super powerful, but the goal was to build him as a Jedi.

Jedi Build:
I've recently adopted the policy of building everything with the Heroic Stat Array because if I can make it work with Heroic NPC Stats, then I'll know it will work with other stat methods. I have not converted this over into a charactersheet at this time, nor run him through any encounters. This is just my first foray into the Kineticist.

Jedi Human Kineticist (Telekinetic) 12/Monk (Master of Many Styles) 1
Heroic Array: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skills: Acrobatics, Disable Device, Perception, Stealth (Diplomacy)

1) Aether (Telekinetic Blast), Burn (+1), Light Touch; Dodge, Extra Wild Talent (Kinetic Blade)
2) Defense Ward, Telekinetic Finesse
3) Feel the Burn (+1); Weapon Finesse
4) Pushing Infusion; Ability Score +1 (Con)
5) Form Specialization (+1), Metakinesis (Empower); Extra Wild Talent (Extended Range)
6) Burn (+2), Feel the Burn (+2), Self Telekinesis
7) Foe Throw, Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blast)
8) Form Specialization (+2), Telekinetic Haul; Ability Score +1 (Int)
9) Monk: Crane Style, (Crane Riposte)
10) Burn (+3), Feel the Burn (+3), Metakinesis (Maximize)
11) Telekinetic Maneuver; Crane Wing
12) Form Infusion (+3), Ability Score +1 (Con)
13) Burn (+4), Feel the Burn (+4), Self Telekinesis (Greater); Combat Reflexes

This is basically just a prototype so I could 'get the feel' of making a Kineticist, but I think it's one that emulates the feel of a Jedi pretty well.

With Telekinetic Blast/Telekinetic Haul, he can throw around a variety of objects, just as Yoda/Palpatine/Dooku did in the Prequel series and Vader did in the original.

With Pushing Infusion/Foe Throw, he can knock people around or even throw them into others; iconic Force Push.

With Kinetic Blade, he's basically got a lightsaber (in your face Technology Guide!) because he can turn anything into a telekinetic weapon.

With Defense Ward, he can accept 2 burn to take 24 points of non-lethal damage, but in return, he gains 24 temporary hp that regenerates (12 HP for activating defense ward and another 12 hp for spending 2 burn). Kind of makes me think of Qui-gon Jinn when he was 'meditating' while trapped in the laser walls during the fight with Darth Maul.

-Note, with the Monk dip for Crane Style, if an attack fails to penetrate Defense Ward, it counts as a miss. If he uses Crane Wing on the attack that fails to penetrate, it triggers Crane Riposte.

With Light Touch/Telekinetic Finesse, he can manipulate fine objects and even use his telekinesis to pick locked doors from a distance.

With Self Telekinesis, he can mimic a Force Jump by launching himself through the air.

Perhaps my favorite tactic, is using Kinetic Blade in conjunction with Pusing Infusion to hit people with attacks and knock them backwards. Poormans Awesome Blow and all that.

Since very few of the Telekinetic options are substance infusions, you can choose form infusion every time with the Infusion Specialization and be perfectly fine with it.

Some clarifications: Just to be sure, you can modify your blast with a form infusion and a substance infusion at the same time right? You just can't use two infusions of the same type?

How do you feel about multiclass playtests? Do you want to see how the Kineticist's abilities function when dipping other classes or would you prefer focusing on just the Kineticist himself?

Some things I noticed about the Telekineticist: Some of his abilities are kind of lack luster. As I was going through his abilities, even though I made most of my decisions based off of a theme for the this guy, there really weren't a lot of great options for the Telekineticist.

When I think of a Telekineticist, I think of a guy who can yank people in the air and hold them over a cliffs edge, or crush their bodies with their mind, or hurl trees and cars at people dealing massive damage, all while floating through their surrounded in a field of telekinetic energy that shields them from harm. I also think of the ability to telekinetically manipulate and wield weapons from a distance; if you've ever seen the movie Push, think of what they used guns for in this movie.

I also think of things like picking up my allies and launching them through the air and controlling their flight safely. Or things like an AoE wave that knocks everything backwards (see this trailer of Chronicle), though I guess this one could be mimic'd by Many Throw and Pushing Infusion. What about item-less blasts? Kind of just raw telekinetic force delivering an attack that deals bludgeoning damage? I imagine this should be the basic attack for the TK, but the ability to hurl objects should add damage on top of it, but not be effectively meaningless in the amount of damage it deals.

Anyway, just some thoughts I had after making a Telekineticist. My internet and TV was out for a few hours so I had nothing else to do. I notice now that I've double checked some things that I can't actually take Extra Wild Talent until 6th level, so that's an error in the above build I included.

Silver Crusade

brad2411 wrote:
Mike Bramnik wrote:

Just a gentle bump to This post that I think got lost in the shuffle.

Also, would I be correct in that Expanded Defense is pretty useless if you double down on your original element?

Lastly, am I reading correctly that you get composite blasts for free once you take Expanded Element?

Thanks!

Expanded Defense can't be taken if you select your element for expanded.

And yes you get composites blast as long as you have the correct elements/prerequisites.

Edit: We have not been told if metamagic feats affect the blast. at least not that I have seen but because of us getting metamagc abilities built into the class I would say no plus as they are Spell like abilities you would have to use the metamagics for them i.e. quicken spell like ability

Thank you on that... I hope we hear back about the metamagics before too long - I managed to get myself into two upcoming 7-11 PFS games in the next 3 days to run a playtest on a level 7 kineticist (still debating Aether or Earth...Semi-Jedi vs Geologist-getting-to-geek-out-in-my-own-element builds), so I want to make sure I'm able to give it a good run through as well as not put the rest of the party at risk heh.

Silver Crusade

Tels wrote:

I also think of things like picking up my allies and launching them through the air and controlling their flight safely. Or things like an AoE wave that knocks everything backwards (see this trailer of Chronicle), though I guess this one could be mimic'd by Many Throw and Pushing Infusion. What about item-less blasts? Kind of just raw telekinetic force delivering an attack that deals bludgeoning damage? I imagine this should be the basic attack for the TK, but the ability to hurl objects should add damage on top of it, but not be effectively meaningless in the amount of damage it deals.

** spoiler omitted **...

I really like that idea - a variation on "self telekinesis" solely for moving allies - maybe having everyone stand together and moving everyone (self included?) as a group?

Also, an item-less blast, sort of like a telekinetic bull rush, would be kinda neat too, yea.

I like Force Blast for the composite with aether, but I'm kinda bummed that there is no combo with aether and any other element in those higher level blasts.

I could see neat combos out there, like Earth+Aether to basically form little metal bullets and then "shoot" them with telekinesis, gunslinger-like... same with ice shards really. Fire could be some sort of flamethrower/cone-like thing... create the flame and then telekinetically "blow" on it like using a spray can and a lighter, etc.

Silver Crusade

Here's another interesting one - would racial alternative traits that affect elemental/ish bloodline powers/spells also apply to Wild Talents and Blasts?

Examples: Oreads and Dwarves for Earth, Undines for water, etc?

Dwarves: Stonesinger (ARG):

Some dwarves’ affinity for the earth grants them greater powers. Dwarves with this racial trait are treated as one level higher when casting spells with the earth descriptor or using granted powers of the Earth domain, the bloodline powers of the earth elemental bloodline, and revelations of the oracle’s stone mystery. This ability does not give them early access to level-based powers; it only affects the powers they could use without this ability. This racial trait replaces stonecunning.

Scarab Sages

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I've been spending a lot of time with the kineticist these last couple days, here's my general thoughts:

1) I think the overall writeup should be re-jiggered to make it easier to understand. I had to read through everything several times to get a grasp on what was going on.

For example, the first thing you read about composite blasts is the Composite Specialization ability in the class description - at which point you have no idea what it is or what it means. So you flip to the section on Composite blasts, and see that they look like wild talents, even though they're not, but ones that require you to have multiple elements. But how do I get multiple elements? Is that a class ability? So you flip back to the front. Nope. Then you read through all the wild talents, and discover Expanded Element. Only after reading through the whole description of Expanded Element do you learn how you get Composite Blasts, and therefore what Composite Specialization is useful for.

There's a bunch of things like this.

2) It's too much a one-trick pony at low levels. You only have a single simple blast until 7th level when pretty much everyone would take a second element. This means that until 7th level, if you're a pyro, you have absolutely nothing you can do if you encounter a monster with fire resistance, or something like a golem. Your whole class is disabled. Wizards and sorcerers don't have this problem - they can cast a glitterdust, or choose a different element or whatever. I think at a minimum, all kineticists should get one physical and one elemental simple blast so they can't be easily hard countered, or maybe make expanded element available at 1st level, but not able to take cross-element wild talents until 7th level.

My humble suggestion would be to start with one free infusion and one free utility ability.

3) I'm making a kineticist in PFS solely for kinetic healing. They'll make better spot healers than clerics (1d6+5 healing at first level, much better than 1d8+1 from CLW) - not saying that's a bad thing, clerics are better at mass healing, and kineticists take burn if they can't spend a move action to gather power. It should also probably say if the range on it is melee touch, since "with a touch" could mean either melee touch or ranged touch.

4) Kinetic Blade/Fist/Whip right now are traps. You'll provoke AOOs every time you use them, and since your blasts scale in power as fast as you gain bonuses to concentration checks, you'll never be able to tap the rolls to cast defensively. They also don't seem to be the basis for a build until at least 5th level (when you can reduce form infusion burn cost by 1), and really not until 8th level (when you get a second attack from BAB). This is a problem since you have to pick your stats at 1st level - if you go high STR to be a melee kineticist, you're going to suck compared to a DEX kineticist until 8th level. If you go DEX kineticist, you're going to suck compared to a STR kineticist after 8th level (since ranged kineticists get no means to full attack). And STR kineticists only get STR to hit - they still use CON to damage. Going STR/DEX/CON is too multiple attribute dependent.

5) It should be clarified if "accepting burn" can be reduced by infusion specialization or gathering energy, or if that means you voluntarily accept burn.

6) I've been eyeballing the various saves-negates infusions, and can't say I'd ever take them. Burning infusion looks super good (boosting your damage effectively from 1d6+2 to 2d6+2), but adding a reflex negates onto the whole thing means that you'll have (let's say) a 50/50 chance of dealing no damage, and a 50/50 chance of dealing 63% more damage, meaning the infusion leads to a net loss in damage per round. If the "reflex negates" is for just the bonus effect, it *really needs to say that clearly* after the section header on infusions.

7) Pressurized blast and pushing infusion shouldn't cap at just 5' of forced movement.

8) There's a few area effect abilities that deal half damage with another half damage with a reflex save (Cyclone, Spray, Torrent). That's pretty terrible. A 10th level wizard deals 10d6 (35 damage, save for half) with a 40' diameter fireball, but a hydrokineticist with cold blast will deal (5d6+2)/2 - 10 damage (save for half) in a 30' cone, while accepting 0 to 3 burn. While it is true the hydrokineticist can do this all day long (if he can negate the burn) while the wizard is spending resources, 10 damage save for half is just abysmal damage for a 10th level character.

While on that note, AOE options are pretty bad overall, and shouldn't pyrokineticists get earlier access to AOE effects? Fire has to wait until 16th level to be able to "fireball", but Air gets it at 10th (along with chain lightning), Earth and Water can do line attacks starting at 6th, and Aether gets a double attack at 6th as well.

9) And yeah, Fire seems to be totally shafted. It has the worst simple blasts (and the worst composite blast - the only one with SR!), doesn't get AOE attacks until 16th level, and has to spend two wild talents and waste move actions every round to semi-replicate the ability to fly which Air gets at 6th level. Most people would intuitively think that Fire would be the best element if you wanted to blow stuff up, but they're really the worst at it. There is only one fire infusion below 16th level!

10) The composite blasts are all the same, as far as I can tell. You could replace them all with "burn 2; do both blast damages; SR No (unless you're fire)". I think there's a real opportunity there to do interesting things. Thunderstorm Blast could deafen! Mud blast could blind for a round, and so forth.

Personally, I'm only interested in aether or water kineticists, since they're the only ones who get Kinetic Healing. Since all of the aether utility options seem to involve a very long chain of wild talents to be able to pick locks and move statues around with your mind (notable exception - telekinetic maneuver is awesome), and lose all the fire/air/earth/water options, I'll probably go water. Slick will provide good utility at low levels, and give my PFS character something to do other than blasting every round.


Kineticist Chassis:

It appears the Kineticist has a Wizard chassis. Starting off weak at low levels, accelerating in power at a higher rate when he (or she) goes up in levels.

However, the signature mechanic of the Wizard chassis is that the power acceleration really revs up starting at 5th level and continuing till 11th level.

Scorching Ray vs. Kineticist's Blast:

The Scorching Ray spell doubles in power at 7th, triples at 11th. Metamagic feats also add a good dose of nitro to the 5th-11th power spike.

While the Kineticist's blast doubles at 2nd level, gradually rising in power similar to the Power Attack feat, which makes the Kineticist chassis closer in design to the Fighter.

It seems likely that the Kineticist is too well balanced. This is neither a good or bad thing, except that it doesn't correlate well with the other classes.

Having those peak levels, gives player empowerment "My Kineticist is really powerful." Rather than a gradual 'less noticeable' climb.


ShakaUVM wrote:

I've been spending a lot of time with the kineticist these last couple days, here's my general thoughts:

Snip to number 4

Actually, all Kineticist go DEX instead of STR from level 1. If you're going to go Melee, you pick up Combat Casting instead of Point Blank, and Weapon Finesse instead of Precise shot. It doesn't matter what form you make you're weapon as far as damage goes, so just make it a "Light" weapon and apply you're Dex to hit.

That said, I hope they drop needing to Combat Cast to use Kinetic Blade/Whip/Fist. One less dice roll in combat is always welcome.

I think it's best to think of them as a Switch Hitter until you pick up Form Specialization. Also gives you a chance to "Try Out" you're ranged attacks.


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Personally I would prefer if Expanded Element was a class feature at 7th level then a Wild Talent at 15th. It would also solve the disjointedness problem Shaka noted about composite blasts.

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