General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Since you are technically using your telekinetic blast when you are using your Foe Throw wild talent, does it still have the same weight restrictions?


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Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

I would like an ability that allows them to fight with a melee weapon from a distance(full attack action as well) kind of like the dancing weapon property.

Dark Archive

I think full BAB and d10, or even d12 hit dice is ideal for this class. If the focus is going to be on ranged attacks with the possibility of moving into melee with various talents, then it needs to be beefy and relevant.

I think strength should have something it can do for this class, even in a tertiary manner. Right now I see no reason to have a positive strength, and I know most builds posted have dumped it into the ground. If telekinetic blade was an inherent option that could then be upgraded with talents, then we'd see two different kinds of kineticist from level 1. If the non-touch blasts could benefit from strength as well as constitution, we'd have a reason to not dump it into the ground alongside Weapon Finesse.


How does force ward (aether kinetic defense) interact with burn damage?
Does it absorb the nonlethal damage you take from burn?


One thought:
I think the Telekineticist should be better than any other class at remotely moving objects from level 1. The limit on weight could be increased to 10 or 20 lbs./2 levels. This would make a lot of non-combat difference, showing true telekinesis from the start (also gaining light touch freely at level 1).

Likewise, the other specialties should be able to move similar volumes/weights of their native materials in a non-combat way for free.


wow, already a really long thread, so I may have missed an answer to this, but about the telekinetic blast, does it have to throw a specific item, or can you gather loose debris from around you into a rough sphereoid to launch or what? the wording seems kinda loose here, at least to me

Paizo Employee Designer

Thanks for the feedback everyone! Keep it coming, and gather as much playtest data as you can. Together, we'll make the kineticist even better!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Jiggy wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
I personally could care less about all of the anime influence on the class, if I ever use it, it will be for a TK superhero/villain type, such as Sylar from Heroes (or many others). So for me it's much more a TK type ability.

Three things:

1) If you "could care less", that means you do care some. You probably meant you couldn't care less.

2) Avatar is an American show, created by a couple of dudes named Michael and Brian. No relation to anime whatsoever.

3) Yes, outside of deliberate Avatar references (which would seem inappropriate in an unaffiliated product), puppet-stuff seems to more naturally fit into TK.

Touche on correcting my grammar. Though since I have a negative amount of caring towards the anime/avatar/benderness (I would wholeheartedly support references to Bender from Futurama though) of the class, I technically could care less by actually disliking it more.

As for Avatar being American, that may be true, but in my perception it's anime regardless (plus aren't there two Avatars out there, one is Japanese?), and perception is reality in this case.

Glad we agree that puppetry should be a good fit for TK though :)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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JoelF847 wrote:
As for Avatar being American, that may be true, but in my perception it's anime regardless (plus aren't there two Avatars out there, one is Japanese?), and perception is reality in this case.

That's okay, in my perception it's basically Tolkien.


I'm surprised I haven't seen comment on the HUGE utility function of Spark of Life. I remember the 3.5 reserve feat that did something similar, and it was awesome.

No need to bring goats into your dungeons! Let your mindless elemental go forth and activate ALL THE TRAPS!

Need to cause a little bit of chaos? Silently and mentally control your elemental and create a distraction with it!

Many other uses, involving both burn and no burn.


The defensive possibilites with this class are insane!

Bruno the Human Water Kineticist 12

Traits: Pragmatic Activator, ???

K) [Wild Talent: Slick], Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
K) [WT: Extended Range]
K) Toughness
K) [WT: Kinetic Cover]
K) [Infusion Specialization: Form], Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
K) [WT: Entangling Infusion]
K) [WT: Extra Element (Earth)], Extra Wild Talent: Expanded Defense
K) [WT: Impale], [IS: Substance]
K) Iron Will
K) [WT: Kinetic Form]
K) [IS: Form], Extra Wild Talent: Spark of Life
K) [WT: Ride the Blast]

HP: 219 (with 24 nonlethal)
AC: 34 (DR 6/adamantine)
Saves: 20/14/10

atk: cold blast +14 touch (6d6+6)
entangling impale cold blast +17 touch (6d6+9 plus entangle [DC 27]) (1 burn)

Str: 7
Dex: 16 (18)
Con: 19 (28) -> 32 with Elemental Body II
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 7

Equipment
(36000) Belt of Con +6
(8000) Deep Red Ioun Stone (+2 dex)
(10000) Chain Shirt +3
(9000) Cloak of Resistance +3
(2000) Ring of Protection +1
(2000) Amulet of Natural Armor +1
(5000) Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
(5000) Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (+1 insight AC)
(2000) Handy Haversack
(750) Wand of True Strike
Total: 79000

Bruno starts every day using Shroud of Water as a shield bonus (+4 AC) and uses Flesh of Stone to gain DR 6/adamantine. Bruno also uses Kinetic Form with 2 burn to take the form of a medium water elemental (+4 Con, +5 natural AC). In combat Bruno either uses Slick to trip or disarm (DC 22 Reflex) or uses entangling impale cold blast to hinder a group of enemies for 1 burn (or 0 burn if a move action is used to steady). If Bruno has time he casts True Strike with his wand (+21 UMD) and then uses Maximized Mud Blast (+37 for 99 damage) for 2 burn with the move action to steady.

Some notes:
- I am having a difficult time building a kineticist that does not start with water + slick. The flexibility at level 1 is so much better than any other element.

- Building on the previous point - there are not enough level 1 wild talents. I am sure this will be solved in the final release.

- This build can use a total of 10 burn without issue. If you wanted to go crazy you could boost the DR by 6 for 6 burn and the AC by 2 for 2 burn - you would still have 99 HP after nonlethal. I prefer to spend the 8 burn to use maximized mud blast 4 times a day.

- This class is too strong defensively. For most classes it is a serious challenge to get 30+ AC by level 12 - the kineticist can get that without really trying.

- Like all the other posters I think that this class has too low to hit with non touch attack blasts. The only way to make mud blast hit is to use true strike the round before. This also contributes to the feeling that you have to start with water.

- You could make a very scary DR focused build with Flesh of Stone and the Stalwart line of feats. Maybe a dip into MoMS for Crane Style?

Paizo Employee Designer

I think the DC for slick should be 21, not 27. It's a 1st-level power, so 11 + Con modifier unless you have something else I'm missing.


Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

A psychic blast that forces targets away from you or frees you from a grapple would be cool. Some other crowd control abilities that allows you to move target(s) willing or unwilling.


Mark Seifter wrote:
I think the DC for slick should be 21, not 27. It's a 1st-level power, so 11 + Con modifier unless you have something else I'm missing.

Right - only defense and blast wild arcana have an effective spell level for 1/2 kinesist level

Dark Archive

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I'll point out again that all of these builds show strength and charisma at 7. There are no rewards for a kineticist having a strength or charisma score that hasn't been dumped into the ground, especially because UMD is such an easy skill to run off Intelligence instead.

If you give kinetic blade automatically and allow strength to impact its damage, we may see some bruiser kineticists come out to play.


Mergy wrote:

I'll point out again that all of these builds show strength and charisma at 7. There are no rewards for a kineticist having a strength or charisma score that hasn't been dumped into the ground, especially because UMD is such an easy skill to run off Intelligence instead.

If you give kinetic blade automatically and allow strength to impact its damage, we may see some bruiser kineticists come out to play.

I was trying to make a bull rush focused build but you are right - strength has no real use on a kineticist. I am having a very difficult time making anything other than a water kineticist that uses cold blast for offense and depends on dex + shroud of water for defense. I like your strength to blade damage and the intelligence to hit on blasts suggestions - it would hopefully promote varied builds.


Mark what's your opinion on having 2 basic blasts for each element? Some of the elements currently have a touch and regular type of blast, so rounding out Aether, Fire, and Earth to have 2 might be cool.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Why on earth can't the burn damage be healed with spells and abilities? What was the reasoning behind that decision? What's wrong with expending resources to get a little more work out of one's work day?

Just seems like a needless restriction to me.

Don Hastily wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:

I'm confused by the burn entry for wild talents. The burn ability says "Some of her wild talents offer her the option to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect", but all of the wild talents I've read so far list a burn amount, but don't describe a greater effect if you accept burn.

Is it intended that you have to accept burn to use the wild talent at all, and the description of the wild talent is the greater effect? Or is burn supposed to enhance the wild talent, similar to augmenting a mythic spell?

Consider the defense talents like flesh of stone.

I was also confused by this. Maybe it needs to be worded different. It makes you think that the main point of burn is to cause a greater effect of a wild talent, not use a wild talent.

This was messing with me too. I read through the class THREE TIMES and was still terribly confused. Finding this forum thread helped a little, but I still have a lot of questions.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Don Hastily wrote:
Since you are technically using your telekinetic blast when you are using your Foe Throw wild talent, does it still have the same weight restrictions?

Wouldn't doing that render Foe Throw nearly useless?

Dark Archive

Another option might be to give the kineticist his choice of which physical stat governs his DCs and max burn total. Something would have to be done to not make Dexterity ungodly powerful, but I would love to see a strength-based kineticist using raw power to command the earth to rise up.


Soo, I really want to make a Fire Kineticist, so I am only listing all these potential problems with the class out of love ;)

This class seems to have a rather large number of drawbacks compared to the amount of damage it can put out. For example, a Fire Kineticist's main upside is that it gets unlimited touch attacks which do fire damage. However, they are affected by fire resistance/immunity, spell resistance, burn limitations, and medium BAB. They also need to spend at least four feats to be reliably effective: point black shot, precise shot, and two spell penetration feats.

On the other hand a standard archer build, while admittedly overpowered, covers the same role as a Kineticist while having higher damage (more attacks per round and magic item boosts), more reliable damage (ignores immunities/DR), likely higher skills per level (ranger), and a longer range without any investment. An archer needs a lot of feats too, but their classes usually hand these feats to them.

I'm not saying that the Kineticist needs to be as crazy as an archer, but it probably needs ways to overcome its drawbacks and more tricks that distingush it from other ranged damage classes.

At least both archers and Kineticists can't really damage swarms ;)

Paizo Employee Designer

Insain Dragoon wrote:
Mark what's your opinion on having 2 basic blasts for each element? Some of the elements currently have a touch and regular type of blast, so rounding out Aether, Fire, and Earth to have 2 might be cool.

I'm considering it, but I also think that having an element with just energy and an element with just matter is useful too, from a design perspective. Certainly earth and fire at least should expect a degradation in other areas were they to receive the other sort of basic blast, but given that the kineticist could have also chosen Expanded Element for a different element entirely at that point, it wouldn't necessarily have to be a big one. If I go that route, I would expect those new blasts to, while not necessarily stunted in damage from the default, have extremely few infusion options to represent the element's lack of focus in that type of attack.

The Exchange

Really like the class myself, although I do have a question or two which may not have been addressed yet.

First, I'm seeing that the class is only naturally proficient with light armor, not medium or heavy. Currently not seeing anything indicating heavier armor interferes with their abilities, is this as intended, and is everybody agreeable with keeping it this way? If so, would it overpower the class to give it heavier armor proficiencies from the start? With its primary stag being con it could already be viewed as a tank class, so why not complete the picture :)

Also, when empowering a blast (or applying other metamagic) can you drop the burn by one by using both hands?

Thanks all


Mergy wrote:
I'll point out again that all of these builds show strength and charisma at 7. There are no rewards for a kineticist having a strength or charisma score that hasn't been dumped into the ground, especially because UMD is such an easy skill to run off Intelligence instead.

And? Wizards don't need either, and arguably don't even need Wisdom because of the good Will save. For a class like the Kineticist, where all they can do is direct-damage, special movement modes, and enhanced senses, the last thing they need is more MAD. Arcane casters can do all three of those and much more, and can be terrifyingly SAD if optimized properly (in fact, they're pretty much entirely SAD to begin with due to the sheer number of defensive spells out there).


Mark Seifter wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Mark what's your opinion on having 2 basic blasts for each element? Some of the elements currently have a touch and regular type of blast, so rounding out Aether, Fire, and Earth to have 2 might be cool.
I'm considering it, but I also think that having an element with just energy and an element with just matter is useful too, from a design perspective. Certainly earth and fire at least should expect a degradation in other areas were they to receive the other sort of basic blast, but given that the kineticist could have also chosen Expanded Element for a different element entirely at that point, it wouldn't necessarily have to be a big one. If I go that route, I would expect those new blasts to, while not necessarily stunted in damage from the default, have extremely few infusion options to represent the element's lack of focus in that type of attack.

Speaking of expanded element, what is your opinion on dual element users?


Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

I would love to have a choice in what stat governs burn, kinetic attack rolls, DCs, etc. and not just physical stats.

Liberty's Edge

I couldn't be happier with the timing of the release on this. I have one more level to run in Emerald Spire then my turn is over and I will squeek in the one session played requirement to keep going. This class looks really cool. However, I am a little disappointed with the lack of comparisons to Jedi Consulars with the Aether element. Get me a Force Choke ability (non-lethal to leave them staggered for a round spending burn to deal lethal and actually make them not breath) and this book is worth it for a chance to play a mix of Obi-wan and Vader alone.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Mark what's your opinion on having 2 basic blasts for each element? Some of the elements currently have a touch and regular type of blast, so rounding out Aether, Fire, and Earth to have 2 might be cool.
I'm considering it, but I also think that having an element with just energy and an element with just matter is useful too, from a design perspective. Certainly earth and fire at least should expect a degradation in other areas were they to receive the other sort of basic blast, but given that the kineticist could have also chosen Expanded Element for a different element entirely at that point, it wouldn't necessarily have to be a big one. If I go that route, I would expect those new blasts to, while not necessarily stunted in damage from the default, have extremely few infusion options to represent the element's lack of focus in that type of attack.

If I were to make basic blasts for Fire and Earth of the other variety it would be an explosion for Fire (Small scale, like the shockwave on a grenade) and probably acid for Earth.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mergy wrote:
Another option might be to give the kineticist his choice of which physical stat governs his DCs and max burn total. Something would have to be done to not make Dexterity ungodly powerful, but I would love to see a strength-based kineticist using raw power to command the earth to rise up.

A certain muscle-headed wrestler earth-benders came to mind.

"The Boulder is over his conflicted feelings, and now he's ready to bury you in a rock-a-lanche!"


The kineticist is pretty neat, a nice spin on the old warlock class. Just a few problems:

Kinetic Blast can be used at will and grows stronger (power caps around 10d6) even with the ranged attack, touch attack, and spell resistance requirements, being able to fire a blast of energy as often as you want like that seems a bit extreme, at least with all those damage dice.

As for the Defenses, I like how they protect against a very specific form of attack. Though I have to question the Water element's defense. It provides either a +4 armor bonus or +2 shield bonus. I'm probably missing something, but doesn't that seem a little redundant?

Also, a lot of wild talents have 0 Burn cost, but some sound like they need one. For example, the "Flame Jet" wild talent says that "any upward movement costs double." Is it referring to Burn cost or number of feet moved?

Finally, giving wild talents separate effective caster levels can get a little confusing. Why not just have the caster level equal to your kineticist level?


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Kenny the Kineticist
S: 10 D: 18 C: 16 I: 12 W: 12 Ch: 7 (20 pt human)

Traits:
Armor Expert (-1 ACP checks)

Class Picks:
Element: Aether
Infusion Specialization: Form

Wild Talents:
Extend Range (1st)
Light Touch (2nd)
Kinetic Blade (4th)
Foe Throw (6th)
Expanded Defense (7th)
Kinetic Whip (8th)
Telekinetic Haul (10th)

Feats:
Point Blank Shot (human)
Precise Shot (1st)
Arcane Strike (3rd)
Weapon Finesse (5th)
Combat Reflexes (7th)
Vital Strike (9th)

1st Level:
melee: +4 light mace (1d6+1)
range: +4 telekinetic blast (1d6+5 damage)

3rd Level:
melee to hit: +7 light mace +1 (+2 BAB +4 DEX +1 weapon)
melee damage: 1d6+2 (+1 weapon +1 Arcane Strike)
range to hit: +7 telekinetic blast (+2 BAB +4 DEX +1 Feel the Burn )
range damage: 2d6+7 (+2 dice +3 CON +1 Arcane Strike +1 Feel the Burn)

5th Level: Item +2 DEX Belt
melee to hit: +8 kinetic blade (+3 BAB +5 DEX)
melee damage: 3d6+7 (+3 dice +3 CON +1 Feel the Burn)
full round melee damage: 3d6+7 + (3d6+3)/2 (empower)
range to hit: +9 telekinetic blast (+3 BAB +5 DEX +1 Feel the Burn )
range damage: 3d6+9 (+3 dice +3 CON +2 Arcane Strike +1 Feel the Burn)
full round range damage: 3d6+9 + (3d6+3)/2 (empower)

7th Level: Item +2 DEX/CON Belt
melee to hit: +10 kinetic blade (+5 BAB +5 DEX )
melee damage: 4d6+10 (+4 dice +4 CON +2 Feel the Burn)
full round melee damage: 4d6+10 + (4d6+4)/2 (empower)
range to hit: +12 telekinetic blast (+5 BAB +5 DEX +2 Feel the Burn)
range damage: 4d6+12 (+4 dice +4 CON +2 Arcane Strike +2 Feel the Burn)
full round range damage: 4d6+12 + (4d6+4)/2 (empower)

9th Level: +2 DEX from stat bumps by level 8
melee to hit: +12 kinetic whip (+6 BAB +6 DEX )
melee damage: 5d6+12 (+5 dice +4 CON +3 Feel the Burn) +5d6+5 (vital strike)
full round melee damage: 5d6+11 + 5d6+5 (vital strike) + (5d6+5)/2 (empower)
range to hit: +15 telekinetic blast (+6 BAB +6 DEX +3 Feel the Burn )
range damage: 5d6+14 (+5 dice +4 CON +2 Arcane Strike +3 Feel the Burn ) + 5d6+5 (vital strike)
full round range damage: 5d6+13 + 5d6+5 (vital strike) + (5d6+5)/2 (empower)

Weaknesses:
1. Terrible to hit in melee. The iterative attack chances are absolutely pathetic (and not much more damage potential thanks to the ability to "empower" by a pseudo full round attack action). It's better to back away or take the AOO rather than bother with melee. As such, I'd probably never bother with Kinetic Blade as an attack. Kinetic Whip is good for opening up AOO chances only.
2. Melee to hit (Kinetic Blade, etc.) needs verbiage so that Feel the Burn applies.
3. Melee to hit (Kinetic Blade, etc.) needs to allow the magical weapon bonus to hit apply.
4. Aether is mostly devoid of area damage (this might be intentional).

Strengths:
1. Single attack damage is pretty stellar.
2. Foe Throw makes for a fun attack against two foes as early as 6th.
3. Empower for the cost of a move action bumps the damage nicely at 5th.

This build is built for DPR. It has GREAT standard action damage, but full round damage can't hold a candle to other ranged builds focused on damage. Allowing the Kineticist to use iteratives with their blasts would not cause undue damage because they lose out on Vital Strike damage potential AND it then costs them a burn point to empower the spell (getting up to 3 attacks at 9th level for 5d6+14 is NOT breaking damage, compare it to the archer getting 5 attacks at 1d8+15). Burn Points are a premium (see below).

This build can't do much of anything outside of combat. I'm not sure how to fix that. Giving more skill points is a good start. The class needs wild talents that allow it to use feats to be used for non-combat options.

Examples:
- Kineticists are assumed to have Weapon Finesse for Kinetic Blade, etc.
- Precise Shot should have a 0 Burn universal wild talent equivalent

Posterity Notes:
- Maximize is a waste at 2 Burn Points. 5d6+5 empowered is ~33 damage. 5d6+5 maximized is 35 damage. +2 damage for the cost of +1 hit points per level for the entire day? Pass.
- Quicken blast is relegated to ONLY a life or death scenario. Inflicting 3 hitpoints/level of damage to yourself is crazy high to use it.
- Metakinesis is good for Empower, but everything else should also cost 1 Burn Point each (doing the math).
- Feel the Burn is nearly required to get to hit back. I would guess it is simply assumed the Kineticist is using it as a balance for their to hit rolls. Taking a -27 hitpoint hit at level 9 to get back to planned to hit metrics is... good?

Burn Point Mechanic

I don't understand why the burn damage is not able to be healed. The mechanic could work fine as a "per combat" mechanic by allowing it to be healed, but instead it is treated as a "per day mechanic" with the debilitating portents.

But, let's run some numbers to see just how useful Burn Points are. At 1d8, that's 5 per level in PFS. Assume a 20 CON by level 10 (because DEX is too important to hit to not raise first). Add +1 hitpoint as a FCB and +1 for the Toughness feat. That's 12 hitpoints per hit die. Anything under 6 hitpoints per hit die is just asking for trouble, so that leaves us with 6 Burn Points potential.

That's enough to pick one of two things to do with them (using them multiple times potentially), and that's it. It becomes really pointless really fast to choose more options that will use Burn Points. What is worth a -1 hitpoint per hit die penalty? And some abilities are even more hit points than that!

(this is what made me take a real hard look at Metakinesis and draw the above conclusion)

Paizo Employee Designer

As a quick note, Kenny's blasts ignore SR.


As I said before, that bit on the burn mechanic can be fixed. If they want to keep it as a per day thing, they need to consider using Burn as the total of non-lethal damage you keep throughout the day. I don't mind the idea of the 1 point per hit die of non-lethal damage taken for using Burn, but at higher levels it should have some amount that is recoverable.

Even when we calculate the move action to reduce burn and the other class features that turn it down, we still run the risk of a 15 minute day. Pathfinder has done a lot to remove that problem from the 3.5 era, so we need to try to keep that from returning.


Mark Seifter wrote:
As a quick note, Kenny's blasts ignore SR.

I didn't see that stated anywhere in the doc and I don't (didn't) want to assume that. That will help the double attack roll requirement.

Paizo Employee Designer

Rory wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
As a quick note, Kenny's blasts ignore SR.
I didn't see that stated anywhere in the doc and I don't (didn't) want to assume that. That will help the double attack roll requirement.

It's in the description of telekinetic blast.

Silver Crusade

I would welcome some ability to deal with swarms even at the lower levels, maybe an ability that lowers single target damage, and exchanges it for a cone.

I am clearly in the 4+Int skill point block.

A water based Kineticist, seems like a pretty nice dip for a number of classes, a permanent +4 armor bonus (+6 with burn) seems pretty nice, and unlimited touch attack and the potential to grab a little bit of healing.

Actually the PFS playtest prevents this for some crazy reason, but I am seeing a lot of characters going for the heaviest armor available. A dip into Fighter or another class would supply the armor proficiency, grant martial weapon proficiency and a bonus feat to get the mandatory Precise Shot and Point Blank shot.
Of course a two level dip into Hunter, would provide among other benefits precise shot.


Mark Seifter wrote:
It's in the description of telekinetic blast.

Hah! I read that so many times. Thank you!

I'll remove that weakness from my post if it hasn't been too long to edit it.

Shadow Lodge

I plan on getting 5 PFS games in with a Kenny G (Kineticist, Geo) starting tonight at L2.

Looks like everyone is going DEX > CON > WIS > INT > STR > CHA. I'm torn between 18 DEX / 16 CON or 18 CON / 16 DEX, thoughts either way?


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rory wrote:

Kenny the Kineticist

Arcane Strike (3rd)

We can apply Arcane Strike to telekinetic blast? Is it considered a weapon?


Sammy T wrote:

Looks like everyone is going DEX > CON > WIS > INT > STR > CHA. I'm torn between 18 DEX / 16 CON or 18 CON / 16 DEX, thoughts either way?

I started out as 18 CON and 16 DEX. I swapped after I started my analysis. I needed more to hit. Afterall, +1 to hit > +1 damage.

I dropped Two Weapon Fighting, then Pirahna Strike, and finally swapped DEX and CON. When you have one attack only (pretty much for the life of the build), you really need it to hit.

If you were concentrating on area damage over single attacks, then CON is better than DEX I'd wager.

Silver Crusade

Oh nearly forgot, since this class is usually limited to one attack per round, effects like mirror image can really stop it dead in its tracks.

And could be maybe get some dispel ability?


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Oh nearly forgot, since this class is usually limited to one attack per round, effects like mirror image can really stop it dead in its tracks.

And could be maybe get some dispel ability?

Deflect Arrow... Missile Shield... oh wow....


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Oh nearly forgot, since this class is usually limited to one attack per round, effects like mirror image can really stop it dead in its tracks.

And could be maybe get some dispel ability?

On a similar note, how do the projectile attacks (namely, the non-elemental ones) interact with Wind Wall?

I'm not sure about a dispelling ability. Although it would certainly put this class more on par with a Warlock, it doesn't fit the Kineticist's fluff at all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think the limitations of the burn mechanic are appropriate and I don't see any need to increase it across the board. Feats like Toughness provide more casting power. I think learning to manage your resources is appropriate to the class. Get a ring of sustenance and teach our group to take 2 hour naps. ;)

If anything is done to alter it, I think it should be something specifically catered to the full day viability of the class and not something that gives it more burn to spend in general. Something like healing an amount of burn damage equal to your class level every hour. That would only give back 1 point of burn per hour so might be appropriate.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Oh nearly forgot, since this class is usually limited to one attack per round, effects like mirror image can really stop it dead in its tracks.

And could be maybe get some dispel ability?

Dispel doesn't really fit. Since the class uses spell-like abilities it can't be countered itself, so giving it the ability to counterspell would just seem off.


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I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I just noticed that the Plasma composite blast does Fire and Bludgeoning damage. This is generally fine, but it has been established in the technology materials that in pathfinder Plasma is half fire and half electricity. So I think either a name change or an element swap might go well there.

Dark Archive

Rory wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Oh nearly forgot, since this class is usually limited to one attack per round, effects like mirror image can really stop it dead in its tracks.

And could be maybe get some dispel ability?

Deflect Arrow... Missile Shield... oh wow....

I think you would need Ray Shield to get a ranged touch negated, but there are still a lot of things that shut down ranged attacks, and I agree that earlier AoE options are a pretty good idea.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That reminds me, I had posted this in another thread but maybe it'll get Mark's attention here:

The following is under Kineticist:

Wild talents are typically spell-like abilities.
All wild talents have a required kineticist level, and most
have an effective spell level. However, blast and defense wild
talents are always considered to be a spell of a level equal
to half the kineticist’s level (maximum 9th level at level 18).
A kineticist cannot normally select blast or defense wild
talents when she gains a new wild talent.

Can typically be changed to "Are spell-like abilities unless otherwise stated"?

Also, the way it's worded it looks like Blast and Defense wild talents are considered to be spells and not spell-like abilities. I don't think that was the intention, correct?

(I know that is just semantics but it matters on a "game defining terms" level. Should it instead say something like "Blase and defense talents are always considered to be spell-like abilities with an effective spell level equal to..."?)


Athansor wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Oh nearly forgot, since this class is usually limited to one attack per round, effects like mirror image can really stop it dead in its tracks.

And could be maybe get some dispel ability?

Dispel doesn't really fit. Since the class uses spell-like abilities it can't be countered itself, so giving it the ability to counterspell would just seem off.

True, but I think an ability to extinguish other or opposite elements would be a good idea. Quenching fire or eroding earth or drying water would be appropriate. Maybe just a universal Extinguish talent that can be fluffed for any of the elements.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Odraude wrote:
True, but I think an ability to extinguish other or opposite elements would be a good idea. Quenching fire or eroding earth or drying water would be appropriate. Maybe just a universal Extinguish talent that can be fluffed for any of the elements.

I really like that idea. I've seen a large number of games where it's necessary to put out fires quickly and you'd think a hydrokineticist would be able to do such things easily.

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