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A pinned creature can still take verbal actions, he just cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component.

But the combat maneuver is not meant to grapple the spellcaster (so no –4 penalty to Dexterity and –2 penalty on all attack rolls, for instance), just to shut him up to avoid him to speak (so not only he can't cast, but he can't even call for help).

How can you do this following the Pathfinder rules?

A dirty trick maybe? Dirty tricks aren't as defined and merely have the issue of being relatively easy to remove. But if Dirty trick can blind someone I don't see why it couldn't gag someone provided you come up with a good explanation of doing it.

Imbicatus wrote:

You would need telekinetic finesse and perform drag or reposition manuevers on your allies.

Hmm I think I see where you are going, referencing telekinetic maneuvers rather than basic telekinesis. Sadly neither drag or reposition are listed as maneuvers that the spell telekinesis can do or the expansion based on telekinetic finesse.

Is there any RAW options for an Aether Kineticist to move allies?

Well technically you could use Foe Throw, but I don't think that's a way most allies would appreciate.

Alternatively using Telekinetic Haul to move some large object they are standing on could be possible perhaps?

Honestly I think the problem is the way that powers are seperate when I don't think that's the way the kineticists would really work if removed from the restrictions of a game's mechanical limitations. I imagine the word count crunching caused by editing didn't help Mark's creation at all either.

The 2ndary target is usually going to be a distant range-combatant accessed via Extended Range. And yes, it's worth it since by 11th level, combining the 2 infusions is free. Free at 8th if you sacrifice a move action.

I must sadly inform you that both of those are form infusions. Extended Range & Extreme range honestly seem like they would just be better as utility talents and any form talents would be effected by them unless they set their own range.

How would these interact if you use the second option of Telekinetic Blast to use the item thrown as the source of the damage rather then the power? If you target separate targets it seems simple enough, just treat each blast a a normal telekinetic blast using the thrown weapon part of Telekinetic Blast.

If you target the same target more then once how does that add up? If you have say two different magic weapons with 2 different on hit effects like flaming and frost would you get both? Would it add the weapon damage from each hit or get the +1d6? What about throwing multiple conductive daggers? You would have to have a second element for that to work as Telekinetic Blast itself isn't a touch attack.

So in theory you could use Flurry of Telekinetic Blasts to Fire Blast multiple targets. That on it's own isn't really all that out of reach of a normal Pyrokineticist just using an AoE Infusion, but once you get the the question of throwing said daggers at the same target it becomes more murky.

So the real question is: How does Flurry of Blasts using Telekinetic Blast interact with the throwing weapons usage of Telekinetic Blast?

So I have a third level brawler (unarmed strike does 1d6+str) in my group, that has now picked up a cleric level with the metal sub-domain. The domain grants 'Metal Fist' this allows a normal unarmed strike to deal 1d6+str damage, plus other benefits (i.e. ignore hardness).

The question is, do the dice given alter one another (stack, increase die size, etc.), or does the ignore hardness simply add to the existing 1d6?

Both are setting the damage to a specific die, not acting as a die increase nor are they acting as effective size changes for die increases. As written I would say no, they do not stack for a further increase. If it just a home game and not PFS I'd say just make a call if you don't think it'll be disruptive.

Talon Stormwarden wrote:

I wanted to post a few clarifications for you. Nice synopsis though. :)

John Lynch 106 wrote:

Burn: Basically she can hurt herself to deal more damage. It cleverly uses nonlethal damage (a rarely used damage type) to disincentivize overcharging her wild talents. Taking the -4 to hit or using saps could definitely be worthwhile against a kineticist.

Actually, doing non-lethal vs lethal does not offer any benefit versus the kineticist (or any other foe). Both damage types contribute to knocking your foe unconscious, so there is no reason to take penalties or switch weapons to do non-lethal.

There's one benefit of doing non-lethal to a kineticist with burn, they can't heal their way out of it. But i combat healing is generally a bad idea anyway, so it's not too relevant in practice.

Only the burn is non-healable, the rest of the non-lethal is just as healable as any other non-lethal.

Claws of the Beast gained via Aspect of the Beast are permanent (EX) claws and would go away with shapeshifting. This is the type of claws referenced in the OP with slayer levels to gain a ranger combat style.

Claws gained via raging such as Lesser Beast Totem are temporary (SU) Claws and will function much like Sorcerer Dragon Claws and be work as long as your current form actually has the limbs to support them.

Wand of Hex Vulnerability @ 1st & Witch 1 w/healing hex heals 1d8+1 for 15gp, or 2.73gp per hp
Wand of Hex Vulnerability @ 1st & Witch 5 w/healing hex heals 2d8+5 for 15gp, or 1.07gp per hp
Wand of Hex Vulnerability @ 1st & Witch 20 w/major healing hex heals 4d8+20 for 15gp, or 0.39gp per hp

It should be noted that a caster level 1 wand of hex vulnerability only lasts 1 round. The spell will wear off before you can healing hex them through this wand. Higher caster level wands of course more then make up for this....

....However caster levels for wands in PFS are restricted to minimum possible caster level so barring a chronicle sheet with a CL2+ wand that argument is kinda null. I have read the idea of a Familiar holding the charge on a hex to deliver the same turn you use the wand. I'm not sure that even happens though.

Deliver Touch Spells (Su)

If a witch is 3rd level or higher, her familiar can deliver touch spells or hexes for her. If the witch and the familiar are in contact at the time the witch casts a touch spell, she can designate her familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the witch would. As usual, if the witch casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates. If the witch activates a hex, her familiar can be used to make the touch. She does not have to be in contact with the familiar to use this ability.

The ability lists designating the familiar as the toucher for a spell separately and with different language from how delivering hex touches works. It looks to me that Deliver Touch Spells for witches basically gives the witch and their familiar two separate but similar abilities.

As for home games, outside PFS a GM's use of rule 0 is far more open so if the GM doesn't like it they can just say nope.

I assure everyone the issue is only in combat. The player does plenty of creative stuff outside of it.

From levels 1-6 he played a fire wizard. He would throw out flame jets, magic missiles, flaming spheres, etc. He wanted to switch to an alchemist.

He likes arcane classes. The alchemist fulfills some of that. But it doesn't have the same diversity in combat. Granted, the alchemist has fly, fast bombs, and everything else to boost those up. We never reach the end of her bombs. The Plyer sees making the character like this as the obvious direction. But the alchemist plays like the archer and he hates fightery classes.

Also, I changed gender pronouns here. As the character alchemist is female
The player is male.

What exactly does this person do with the bombs? Smoke Bomb, Stink Bomb, Tanglefoot Bomb, Dispelling Bomb, Grease Bomb, Healing Bomb, Blinding Bomb all do things that are much more then Bomb + Different Damage Type. Keep in mind all of these bombs other then dispelling bomb still do their damage so the opportunity cost isn't even all that high as long as they are appropriate to the situation. I probably even missed some cool bombs, I know I left out the race specific ones.

Some archetypes can add some other options like Preservationist + planar preservationist feat to get summon monsters as extracts.

If the player isn't really liking the alchemist what exactly caused them to want to play it?

Aetherkineticist may, or may not, have access to elemental body at 10th level depending on build. Force Ward remains viable for the classes entire lifetime and an Aether/Aether kineticist can deal force damage, which nearly nothing can mitigate.

No. An aether kineticist can get kinetic form at level 16 if they have another element.

EXPANDED ELEMENT
Element universal; Type Su; Level 4; Burn —
Prerequisites kineticist level 7th
You learn how to use another element or expand your understanding of your own element. Choose any element,including your primary element. You gain one of that element’s simple blast wild talents that you do not already possess, if any. You also gain all composite blasts whose prerequisites you meet.
If your chosen element is different than your primary element, you can learn 1st-level wild talents from that element. At 10th level, you can learn 4th-level wild talents from that element. At 16th level, you can learn 6th-level wild talents from that element. At 15th level, you can select this wild talent a second time. If you do so, you must choose a different element than the one you chose the first time you selected this wild talent.

KINETIC FORM
Element air, earth, fire, or water; Type Sp; Level 6; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 10th
You can call forth your element and infuse it into your entire body. You gain elemental qualities of a type of elemental that matches any of the elements you possess as if by casting elemental body I. By accepting 2 points of burn, until the next time you recover burn, whenever you use kinetic form, you can instead gain the benefits of elemental body II. When using kinetic form, you never gain the earth glide, whirlwind, or vortex abilities.

Malwing wrote:

In that particular instance I'd probably go for the 20 str 16 con every time given the choice between the two. Its kind of a personal thing but for me not hitting is way worse than being more killable in the sense that making my abilities go off or otherwise do something is fun to me. Having a lower strength fighter is less fun for me because of missing with attacks more than anything else. (disregarding ways to hit with things other than strength.) Missing is probably the worst feeling in the game if that's the main thing you do.

Thanks a lot. Me too, actually. So what if there was a third option for your 10th level fighter:

1) As before 20 Str, 16 Con

2) As before 16 Str, 20 Con

3) 16 Str, 20 Con, 20 incurable nonlethal damage, +2 to hit, +4 to damage.

Compared to option 1 (the one we both picked), option 3 does 1 more damage, same to-hit, with 2 more Fort save, same hp before going unconscious but a much bigger buffer before death (both the 20 nonlethal and then 4 more from higher Con) but has lower carry capacity and 2 lower CMD.

So reading this a thought came to me. Currently burn is a daily resource. You can't use more burn then Con + 3. This functions much like other classes resources. So just an idea for all the people for and against burn and everyone that is for it for that matter. Change the everything that works off con to wisdom(or a different mental stat, I just think wis fits most). Burn no longer does nonlethal damage, just go off the Wis + 3 Burn.

Is the class stronger? Weaker?

Since Mark already equated lower con with just not having the nonlethal damage anyway I figure go with it. To me the class feels better. Wis unlike con actually gives benefit to skill checks so that's a plus. If you tried using int, then skill issues disappear completely as far as I'm concerned.

Alternate Version: Change the limit to straight Wisdom instead of Wis + 3. Now allow the use of old burn to go past this limit. Suddenly the part where burn says "At 1st level, a kineticist can overexert herself to channel more power than normal, pushing past the boundaries that are safe for her body" makes sense. One of the big problems I have with burn is the feel of what it is supposed to be. Pushing past your limits? Right now that isn't what it is. It's burning HP to make yourself competent. The standard operating practice is start the day and burn to max feel the burn. Why make con a stat if best operating procedure is to negate most of it to anyway.

I like the idea of going past limits to do more. However, for it to feel like that is what I'm doing it has to be going past limits not starting at the limit. I have no characters I want to make that start at the limit, I want it to be something they are pressed into doing as the situation becomes dire. Heroic Red Ring of Death(Warning:TVTropes Link) is not something that you do as a normal every day occurrence. You do it because you have to. It's the only way to accomplish your goal. It is NOT roll out of bed and start the day with a nice hearty gut punch because that's how you roll.

This is why I don't like burn. I don't care if some view it as mechanically balanced(I don't with current costs myself, but besides the point). What character do you want to make that does this? I know many many characters in comics, anime, books, movies, etc that will push themselves past limits do their own self detriment. None of them do it lightly or daily or as a normal thing. And you know what? When they do? Most of them can be healed if a fast method is available. Goku and sensu beans, Natsu eating fire(I would really, really love kineticists had something like this).

This doesn't really address mechanical issues I have with utility abilities but the flavor of Burn just needs to change to me. It's not pushing past limits and it really should be.

Note: I know that if a change like this was implemented some abilities should probably be renamed - Burn to Energy or something like that. Feel the Burn to something else, Elemental Focus? Blast Specialization? Energy Manipulation? Dunno.

Uhh...well, you guys saw the thing about not provoking with blade/whip, right? Also, whoever said that kinetic whip just gives you the reach property and not any of the minutiae of the weapon (such as the weapon whip which has longer reach and provokes AoOs) is correct.

I have a question about the kinetic blade/whip. Whip just extends the weapon but otherwise it's blade so mainly about blade.

Does it give you a specific weapon you choose when you make it as it seems to imply with the text about one handed or light weapon or is it it's own weapon? I know it doesn't mention anything about proficiency but I'm ok gaining them from another source and just using simple weapons if I don't bother to do so.

Reason to ask though is can I make a weapon with the trip, disarm, sunder, monk, etc kinda traits and gain the benefits. Can I take weapon specific traits like river rat, or multiclass with something that has a weapon specific class feature and benefit from it.

If it is does become a specific weapon I would like for there to be another talent allows for dual weapon creation, the idea of a catfolk making claw blades out of fire sounds awesome to me. Maybe something for an arch type.

Honestly with enough tweaks to burn and hit modifiers there's no reason this couldn't be a poor bab class. As it is, kinetic weapon seems a little too good with its iterative attacks.

I kind of agree. Blasting without iterative seems weak without extreme burn but iteratives with can swing it the other way. Don't get me wrong I like the idea of kinetic blade but the balancing act of range vs melee is really hard because of it.

I think an idea to reduce burn usage could be something like the breath weapon mechanics. Just have some abilities recharge over relatively short periods. Might be do ends or minutes or hours depending on ability. Reusing such abilities within recharge time would then incur burn.

Say pyrokinetics could have a more scalable burning hands that can only be used once every 4 or 5 rounds. Spamming such an ability would then incur burn. Could be explained as normally using ambient elemental energy but more use is channeled through or provided by the body of the kineticist themselves. Gather energy representing the more controlled less debilitating channeling.

Edit: On further reflection I think fluff logic would work better as saying just naturally stored and recharging energy so as to explain away multiple kineticists not interfering with each other. Recharge rates could be influenced by environment though.

Please be advised that this thread is for the convenience of the Playtest organizer. As such, it will function best as a repository of distilled observation. If each person who wishes to contribute leaves exactly 1 post, and edits that post to include new ideas they wish to submit, this will prevent information from being repeated by the same poster several times.

Questions regarding these posts would work best in the kineticist general discussion. Comments on another poster's information would likewise be best done in the general thread, though motions to second an idea within your own normal idea post would enable an easy tally of support for ideas. If this thread is kept to these basic premises, it will vastly assist in the search for usable ideas for this class by the designers.

** spoiler omitted **...

I'm going to try to go over a variety of points that I'll update over time.

Mark has already ruled out acid and alchemist fire having an addition affect.

The issue is it doesn't make sense. Rules shouldn't be so incredibly counter-intuitive. From a balance perspective of the blast does the damage I understand but if I throw an innately dangerous material at you it should be more dangerous then bombardment with pillows.

As written though a telekinetic throwing a feather causes equal damage to a telekinetic with telekinetic haul throwing a boulder. Stretching my suspension of disbelief like this pulls me way out of the game.

Honestly my favorite power right now is foe throw because I'll just go for throwing enemies wherever seems funny because ac 5 to target a square is pretty easy. Let falling damage do my work. Problem is it shares extended range as a form infusion.

@graystone, that gives me a thought... there aren't any telekinetic powers to let a PC control multiple objects, are there? I was about to edit my post to say "or make your character a juggler and use those both in- and out-of combat", but even if you tried to imagine three small objects as suspended in a "matrix" of telekinetic force, there's no mechanic that would allow that (something that, to a wizard, would basically be a refined version of Prestidigitation...)

There is many throw, a level 16 wild talent to throw at as many targets within 30 feet of each other as you have kineticist levels. This does make it the best aoe damage spell for pure daamge up to it's target limit as it isn't halved like the other aoe's. It also doesn't technically say you can't target the same target more then once, but as each hit at this level is doing 8d6+ I doubt it will be allowed to hit one target with all of the hits and do 8d6 16 times.

It should be noted the spell Telekinesis itself is only a level 5 spell and allows for moving objects, combat manuevers and for attacking and seems better then most things Telekinectics can do on a whole by itself. It seems sad that a Telekinetic would be outmatched by in many ways by someone with a ring of telekinesis.

kestral287 wrote:

graystone wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

By "lessen the amount you take" do you mean take less Burn, or each Burn deals less HP damage? I'm curious.

Less incurable damage. I could work with the hp damage as-is if you could fix it or less of it being un-healable.

Reasonable enough. Do you have a thought to how you'd like to see that brought about? Half of Burn damage is healable, or just cut the raw numbers in half, or make it all healable, or something else entirely?

My first preference would be to make it healable. If that didn't work then drop to 1/2 healable.

I'd also like to separate burn and the feel the burn bonuses. I HATE the fact that to keep up my to hit, I have to shoot myself repeatedly in the foot. What I'm doing the burn for should be good enough on it's own without the feel the burn 'carrot on the stick' buff.

As was suggested previously by Melkiador, changing it from burn = HD damage to burn = effective spell level would help immensely. First burn damage would only go up when the actual effectiveness of the ability went up instead of going up regardless of effectiveness increase and it would cut the total in atleast half, more so for a some of the lesser abilities.

The issue of the blasts I'm not sure on, as the effective level of blasts is always caster level goes up every 2 levels maxing at 9 at 18, but the infusions are set at different levels. Probably just use the highest applicable level? Still be less damage over all so it still be better.

Kinetic Healer is the only ability I see as being thrown out of balance by this, but as is I don't like kinetic healer anyway so if it has to be redesigned I see no major loss.

The really important thing I feel this does though is that other then blasts your ability to perform these actions gets more numerous as you level up like normal casters instead of staying static or possibly going down.

Mark has already flatly stated that kineticist will not deal fighter/barbarian/archer damage and if we find a way to deal that level of damage it will be removed.

I'm seriously questioning what the point of this class is at this point. Every feature of the class other then Wild Talent are blasting specific abilities. Most of the Wild Talents are blasting specific abilities. The class burns it's HP in order to be better at blasting. The class only has 2 skill points and no other reason to invest in int and several reasons not to.

If the class isn't allowed to be better then others even when permanently burning HP's for each day what is the point? Other then permanent fly or earth glide or air walk, etc what does it do better then anyone?

If it ISN'T buffed up in a number of different ways, the class will be a 1 level dip for casters so that they can pick up Telekinesis Force Ward and become immune to all negative conditions via a regenerating pool of temp HP that outright gives immunity to all SoL/SoD spells...

This has already been addressed, it only stops effects that it actually prevents damage from. Ray of Enfeeblement is still gonna nuke your str score, other spells still do whatever.

Burn is based around a d8 hit die. Raise the die and they'd just raise the burn costs.

I would argue burn is poorly balanced around d8 hit die or else there wouldn't be a huge amount complaints based on burn being too expensive to use. I think the class could have a d12 hit die and still not have enough hit points to nova without going into 15 minute adventure days constantly.

Sure some tricks are cool to have at no cost with unlimited duration but most of them are poorly balanced for the level they come available. Take light touch for example, it's a level 0 spell for a wild talent. That ability should just be part of the Telekinetic's default kit. In fact every kit should have some small default ability to manipulate their element other then blasts if only for RP value.

Spark of life requires level 10 to summon at the level of a level 7/8 witch/wizard/sorcerer/cleric/oracle/summoner. Considering the move action control or burn usage limit why can't this be at the same level? This one is probably one of the best examples because it really does have a built in limitation like other classes have. It's even more limiting even as you can only summon 1 elemental per action and only elementals.

It strikes me that instead of burn doing 1hp per level, it should instead be one hp per spell level.

This right here would solve a ton of my issues with burn as is.

Burn right now actually makes you worse at things on some levels. As blasts increase on odd levels but burn increases every level even levels effectively make you less effective per HP lost to burn then odd levels. Also the mechanic is the biggest encouragement to 1 encounter adventuring days ever to be created.

My experience so far is shoot for the moon and be overpowered first and scale down, because after release classes almost never get buffed, but nerfs have and do occur. Right now it's like Kineticist is shooting for over the rooftops while other classes are atmospheric.

Toting the idea of at will while actually being more tied to resting then 9th level spell casters is just not an enjoyable idea to me.

Crusader's flurry really makes this fun. Take it sometime after 4th when you get channel energy and you'll become even more of a menace on the battlefield. It's almost like they had the feat in mind when they made this archetype.

The sad part here...Sacred Fist doesn't actually have proficiency with their god's favored weapon. That text was part of normal warpriest's proficiency text. And you lose weapon focus as a bonus feat too.

Don't really care for monk weapon proficiencies. Other then the rare shuriken, I don't think I've ever actually use a monk weapon.

Sacred Weapon must be limited to the diety's favoured weapon, it makes no sense otherwise.

Graduates of Pharasma's School of Undead Slaying,

Congratulations on making it through a tough year of ghoul killing, skeleton bashing, zombie destroying, and vampire stabbing. As you shall now be accepted to our esteemed group of Warpriest is Pharasma's name, I hereby give you your new weapon. Know that if you ever use a different weapon to slay the undead Pharasma shall not bless you with sacred might.

Well on with it, go kill the undead hordes.

Not all favored weapons are favored for combat reasons, don't be silly or stupid enough to think it was a good idea to try to make that a thing.

This version of Warpriest is much better.

I like how sacred weapon works with your deity's favored weapon regardless of what you choose weapon focus in, allowing you to change up as the situation requires it.

This feature however is somewhat brought down by the sacred weapon activated portions only functioning as long as you hold them. Why do throwing weapons get the dunce cap? Melee? Works fine. Bows? Firearms? Works fine. Try to throw that star knife cause you worship Desna? Get to the corner dunce.

I understand the goal is to make it so you can't hand the weapon off to someone else, but wouldn't that just as easily be fixed with the wording "These bonuses only function for the war priest"? Could even add returning to the list of enhancements that could be grafted on via sacred weapon. That will be a house rule at home for me regardless but I play PFS and I like throwing weapons, they just get no support.

Next, as a flavor standpoint I think it would be nice if the war priest had some of the combat oriented channel feats as things they can get with bonus feats. Channel Smite, Greater Channel Smite, Guided hand, etc seem from a flavor standpoint to belong on a war priest. Possibly add war priest to inquisitor on the Channeling Scourge feat. Or maybe just make an archetype that's channel centric. I would really love to play a channel centric character.

Blessings...well there is a separate thread for these because of how much work they need.

All in all huge improvement.

First thing I did with the PDF was check life spirit. Shaman still has the Healer's Touch Greater Spirit ability.

Healer’s Touch (Su): With a touch of her hand, a shaman

can touch a dying creature to stabilize it without the
need of a Heal check. She can affect up to 6 people as
standard action. Furthermore, a shaman gains a +4
bonus on Heal checks.

Why is the level 8 ability so bad. It would be better replaced with +1 Channel Use. How does this even remotely compare to other greater spirit abilities like see in super natural darkness, inherent intellect bonuses, resist bonuses, etc. It's just...bad. I don't think I could ever play a life shaman because every time I see that ability I would just get angry at it. Though I guess the nature's greater spirit ability is pretty terrible too.

Honestly thinking about it, it seems like several of the spirit abilites and hexes are both based on revelations and some are just attached spirit and some to hexes with little to any balancing on power level. Some spirits the hexes are the real power, others the spirit abilities are.

I think the shaman class would play better if spirit abilities seems more representative of the spirit then the hexes do. After all every nature shaman will have Spirit of Nature at level 8, which tells me nature's shaman's plan to fall down a lot, otherwise why have this? And life oracles plan on running out of channel and need to stabilize everyone that failed the fireball save..?

On to the Druid spell list, I love this for the spirit's that are tied to elements. Flame Oracles for example have a terrible time of playing up their revelation because they are limited to just mystery spells to do so. Waves oracles are just kinda sad failures at it. Shaman's having access to a spell list that actually has fire and ice spells is awesome for this purpose.

morrissoftxp wrote:

Remy Balster wrote:

Wandering Spirit. Shaman class ability. Using it, select Lore Spirit.

I'm not sure if that answers your question? What are you asking?

shaman as in an archtype of druid right? i don't remember seeing any abilities that give it the ability to summon wandering spirit

Shaman is the new full class in the ACG. This is the Advanced Class Guide messageboard. I'm talking about one of the new classes.

It is a divine caster with full progression. At like, level 4 or so it gains a class feature called Wandering Spirit. This feature lets them select one of the class's Spirit options, and change it out for another each day when they prepare their spells.

One of the Spirit options is Lore, and one of the powers it has is that it allows the Shaman access to a number of Sorc/Wiz spells equal to their Charisma modifier.

End result? A divine caster that can have a number of arcane spells they can swap out every day as needed.

It should be noted that this method does make you reliant on all three mental stats. Int scored needs to be up to casting the level of spell you want, charisma determines the number of arcane spells you learn, and Wis is still your actual casting stat.

It's still the best way to essentially cast whatever spells you want, but it's so MAD that it's silly.

No one knows?

For reference Everflowing aspergillum.

Now my question is, does the touch attack count as a splash weapon? It doesn't say that it does, but it does say a vial's worth of holy water, and a vial of holy water is a splash weapon.

If it's not a splash I'm thinking of getting one for my ninja in pfs. Probably won't get a sneak with it often but even once would be funny enough to me to make it worth it. Besides I need a blunt weapon anyway and it counts as good so it would have standard uses.

If it does count as a splash weapon, and this is the interpretation I feel makes most sense, it would be a handy alchemist tool for undead slaying.

@Abadar

He is multi-classing oracle of waves for water sight and obscuring mists to pretty much always have total concealment to sneak attack.

Of course this method can read to frustration with the partly who can't see through fog like it's not there, but it works great for him.

The biggest issue I see for a build like this is that what do you do when counter measures are applied? All in shurikens really lacks when you are targeting full ac without sneak. As long as a good back up plan is there it seems fun to me.

Droid X2 & a nook tablet.