Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide

Are Neautrel champions now options?

No, no stated plans for them to appear either. The game, however, is adding archetypes that deal with armor and shields, so you might have significantly better options to increase your defenses without locking into a champion.

But if you want to play a TN champ, you're out of luck for a good while yet. At least a year.

VestOfHolding wrote:

No problem! I'll be making more updates over the next day or two as I transcribe the text that's in the images more fully.

Please let us know when they are done.

Check the changelog notes at the bottom. The more I went to do it, the more I felt weird about how that jived with the Community Use rules. Still lots of other updates though.

Thanks for the info, Vest. Looks like I might be able to get my Boar animal companion.

I have a Google Doc here that contains all of the notes I took, plus double checking them against the fantastic live notes taken by /u/The-Magic-Sword on Reddit.

Oooh, I hadn't caught this (though I'd seen the Ancestry and Archetype stuff posted elsewhere).

Some of the Class stuff is very neat. I'm still a tad worried about Oracle and will need to have a look at it, but Witch sounds like everything one could hope for, additional Swashbuckler Class Paths are great (and Wit sounds potentially awesome to play), and, in particular, I'm very interested in how the Investigator combat options work.

Specifically, I'm pleased they get all martial weapons, and find the mechanic for 'pre-rolling' their attack (and using Int on it) very interesting, but perhaps not sufficient on its own to make them effective in combat, we'll need to see if they still receive bonus damage or the like (which probably would be sufficient, depending on the damage), or the ability to inflict debuffs (which might also be sufficient).

Specifically, I'm pleased they get all martial weapons, and find the mechanic for 'pre-rolling' their attack (and using Int on it) very interesting, but perhaps not sufficient on its own to make them effective in combat, we'll need to see if they still receive bonus damage or the like (which probably would be sufficient, depending on the damage), or the ability to inflict debuffs (which might also be sufficient).

Yeah, I’m assuming they keep Studied Strike precision damage, but tie it to using this ability, no perception roll needed. If pre-rolling an attack for an action was all that it did... why not just spend the action to Strike?

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Specifically, I'm pleased they get all martial weapons, and find the mechanic for 'pre-rolling' their attack (and using Int on it) very interesting, but perhaps not sufficient on its own to make them effective in combat, we'll need to see if they still receive bonus damage or the like (which probably would be sufficient, depending on the damage), or the ability to inflict debuffs (which might also be sufficient).

Yeah, I’m assuming they keep Studied Strike precision damage, but tie it to using this ability, no perception roll needed. If pre-rolling an attack for an action was all that it did... why not just spend the action to Strike?

While I do expect there to be something else involved, at least with feat investment…

It would end up feeling a bit odd to me if the class ended up feeling like it favored two-handed weapons, but that would allow it to move a bit further away from Rogue.

If you plan on using physical stats, or want to use finesse weapons, then it might end up better to go with Rogue as a similar class focused on those things. We'll have to see!

Yeah, I’m assuming they keep Studied Strike precision damage, but tie it to using this ability, no perception roll needed. If pre-rolling an attack for an action was all that it did... why not just spend the action to Strike?

That's certainly one possibility. But there are advantages as QuidEst notes, particularly getting to use Int on the attack. I'm not at all positive what direction they've gone on this, and I'm interested, hopeful, and a bit anxious.

While I do expect there to be something else involved, at least with feat investment…

- Any bonus damage needs to be balanced against the fact that you could be wielding a d12 greatsword.
- You're getting Int to attack for the extra action. "Strike using Int to attack" is worth more than one action, but worth less than two. What we have is, it costs two actions, but you get "refunded" one action if you miss (with the caveat that you can't make more attack rolls once you've gotten your refund). That falls between one and two actions, so it's in the right ballpark.

Yeah, it's at a tricky and interesting balance point. I'm very curious what they've done with it. One possibility would be the additional bonus varying by Methodology. I could see that, if done properly.

It would end up feeling a bit odd to me if the class ended up feeling like it favored two-handed weapons, but that would allow it to move a bit further away from Rogue.

Unfortunately, this winds up really stat intensive to do just due to only getting Light Armor. At the moment they desperately need Dex for AC. One methodology getting medium armor to enable this as part of the 'varying combat stuff by methodology' idea above seems possible, but perhaps not likely, and could be combined with another option for bonus damage but only on finesse weapons...

If you plan on using physical stats, or want to use finesse weapons, then it might end up better to go with Rogue as a similar class focused on those things. We'll have to see!

Yeah, I'm really interested in how this will all work out...

Heads up, the street date and PDF price were revealed.

- You're getting Int to attack for the extra action. "Strike using Int to attack" is worth more than one action, but worth less than two. What we have is, it costs two actions, but you get "refunded" one action if you miss (with the caveat that you can't make more attack rolls once you've gotten your refund). That falls between one and two actions, so it's in the right ballpark.

I don't think it's quite that good. My impression was that you see the roll and can decide if you want to continue or not, but unless you've pinpointed the target's AC already there is still some uncertainty.

Aww man how is July 30th mid july. Poop salad. So far awayyy

Aww man how is July 30th mid july. Poop salad. So far awayyy

Preorder now and you might get it earlier.

QuidEst wrote:

- You're getting Int to attack for the extra action. "Strike using Int to attack" is worth more than one action, but worth less than two. What we have is, it costs two actions, but you get "refunded" one action if you miss (with the caveat that you can't make more attack rolls once you've gotten your refund). That falls between one and two actions, so it's in the right ballpark.

I don't think it's quite that good. My impression was that you see the roll and can decide if you want to continue or not, but unless you've pinpointed the target's AC already there is still some uncertainty.

Bonus damage should probably be tied to agile or finesse weapons, though then I agree you are somewhat in the Rogue's space. This is probably fine; after all the Investigator started as a hybrid Rogue/Alchemist. I expect a Mastermind Rogue with Alchemist dedication to look pretty similar to an Investigator, frankly.
As for the value of Int to attack: Investigators are a light armor class, so they probably want that 16 dex anyway. So int to attack is not that much better if extra damage is tied to Finesse weapons.... I'm sure they've thought this through, curious to see what they came up with.

Fair points all around! (As a GM, I'll probably give AC as part of the action to avoid feel-bad situations.) I do like the ability to go very SAD on the class.

I will say- if the action does bonus damage to help finesse, it doesn't matter if you are only getting a small attack bonus over using Dex. Then the point of the action for your character is "bonus damage for finesse weapons" and +1 attack is a perk.

Gaulin wrote:

Aww man how is July 30th mid july. Poop salad. So far awayyy

Preorder now and you might get it earlier.

Preorder doesn't get it early; it's subscriptions that have a chance of that.

Note the word "chance", disruptions in shipping somtimes lead to street date coming in before your book gets shipped.

Yep got my Bestiary 2 on the release date cause my package got misquoted by UPS. The real advantage as a Subscriber is you will get access to the PDF as soon as your actual books ship.

I would not plan on getting anything early for a Gencon month.

I would not plan on getting anything early for a Gencon month.

I don't know how much work GenCon Online is going to be, relative to the in-person event. Things are a bit up in the air this year.

I said "might" and preorder and subscription are functionally indistinguishable as they cost the same and you can cancel your subscription at any time.

IIRC I got my PF 2e stuff almost 2 weeks before the release date.

I often get my stuff 2 weeks earlier from subscriptions <3

the benefits of subscription plus the pdf when it ships.

"LE = Tyrant, NE = Desecrator, CE = Antipaladin"

Ah, well, two out of three ain't bad.

captain yesterday wrote:

I would not plan on getting anything early for a Gencon month.

I don't know how much work GenCon Online is going to be, relative to the in-person event. Things are a bit up in the air this year.

Now that you mention it, I'm curious as well. Much of the panel prep by editors and developers, plus the PFS organizing work, is going to remain the same. However the logistical challenges of physical travel are being removed, and much of the logistical challenges of home broadcasting have either been addressed or at least identified (and so can be addressed in the next couple of months). Not doing the con pickup is going to be huge on the cost and labor savings side, I'd wager.

Overall, I'd assume things might be slightly easier, although Murphy makes mockery of us all, so whatever slack they might find will probably be needed to patch something else that is harder.

They might be able to risk in-person office time enough by then to actually broadcast from their spiffy studio, which would doubtless make everything smoother.

QuidEst wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

I would not plan on getting anything early for a Gencon month.

I don't know how much work GenCon Online is going to be, relative to the in-person event. Things are a bit up in the air this year.

Now that you mention it, I'm curious as well. Much of the panel prep by editors and developers, plus the PFS organizing work, is going to remain the same. However the logistical challenges of physical travel are being removed, and much of the logistical challenges of home broadcasting have either been addressed or at least identified (and so can be addressed in the next couple of months). Not doing the con pickup is going to be huge on the cost and labor savings side, I'd wager.

Overall, I'd assume things might be slightly easier, although Murphy makes mockery of us all, so whatever slack they might find will probably be needed to patch something else that is harder.

They might be able to risk in-person office time enough by then to actually broadcast from their spiffy studio, which would doubtless make everything smoother.

We also spend a year planning for GenCon but only have a few weeks to adjust for GenCon online, which is overlapping standard things that have to occur regardless of where GenCon is held, alongside premiere events like specials (for example, we end up releasing the July and August org play adventures at the same time, which means that starting in March we have to ramp up production to ensure that we're ready for a month where we'll have two or three times the normal amount of products releasing). By this point in time, most of the GenCon work beyond actually packaging and shipping to the con is already a sunk cost, particularly as invested time goes. Most production and shipping processes are locked in 6-13 months out, so at this point there's more work involved in reassigning assets, adjusting schedules, figuring out what COVID means for us and our distributors, etc. Any time gained in not needing to fly to Indiana was devoured and then some months ago.

I apologize if I offended you.

The release of the APG ends year one/begins year two of Second Edition. When First Edition ended we had 40 Classes in the game. At the end of year one in Second Edition we will have 20 of the 40 Classes back in the game. That’s pretty good!!!

I have a feeling you missed a couple of classes, but I can't put my finger on which ones, so maybe I'm wrong. In any case, those are a good pair of lists. Thanks for posting them.

Arcanist = Sorcerer with the arcane evolution feat, wizard with the spell substitution thesis
Bloodrager = Barbarian with the sorcerer archetype, sorcerer with the barbarian archetype
Brawler = Monk with the fighter archetype, fighter with the monk archetype
Gunslinger = errrrm...
Hunter = Ranger with the druid archetype, druid with the ranger archetype
Inquisitor = Warpriest cleric with the rogue archetype, liberator champion with the rogue archetype
Kineticist = Sorcerer, elemental bloodline
Magus = Wizard with the fighter archetype, fighter with the wizard archetype, both with the Bespell Weapon feat
Medium = yrrrp....
Mesmerist = Bard with the rogue archetype
Ninja = Rogue
Occultist = mrrprppp....
Psychic = Bard, sorcerer with a bloodline that grants the occult spell list
Samurai = Fighter with the cavalier archetype and funky banners
Shaman = nyuuuuuuuuuuuuu (likely remedied with APG)
Shifter = Barbarian with the animal instinct, druid with the wild order
Skald = Barbarian with the bard archetype, bard with the barbarian archetype
Slayer = Rogue with the ranger archetype, ranger with the rogue archetype
Spiritualist = prrrrrrrrrrrrrrpppppp
Summoner = mmmmmmmmyyyiiiiiii

I wonder what the rare and unique backgrounds will be.

And will there only be the rare and unique backgrounds or will there be some more "normal"/common backgrounds (such as in the core rulebook), too?

I am also looking forward to the Archetypes such as the assassin, bounty hunter, blessed one, gladiator, herbalist, martial artist, pirate or scout.
(Would it make sense for a cleric to take the "blessed one" archetype?)

It is great to see how many rules expansions were released just within one year.

Keep the steady output up :)

I apologize if I offended you.

Not at all! I was actually agreeing with your general point while providing some specifics that might not be particularly obvious.

AnimatedPaper wrote:

I apologize if I offended you.

Not at all! I was actually agreeing with your general point while providing some specifics that might not be particularly obvious.

Still, I made it seem like I thought it would all be super easy, and I genuinely hadn't thought of the task of rescheduling basically everything and figuring out how the evolving situation with Covid would complicate everything further.

I'll try to word myself better in the future to prevent these kind of misunderstandings.

As of now, the book is scheduled to release on time correct?

Will the faerie dragon and imp be available at 1st level and how long before the book is PFS sanctioned?

"LE = Tyrant, NE = Desecrator, CE = Antipaladin"

Ah, well, two out of three ain't bad.

Agreed. Personally, I would've prefer Despoiler, more of a petty theif, in it for my myself kind of vibe.

Yawar,

I was just wondering if there's going to be a proper aquatic druid - currently tweaking the Storm Druid for that.

I remember thinking the new bard muse sounded an awful lot like a Skald.

Super stoked for this release!

Just have to say my hope for eventual neutral champion's titles to be as follows;
LN: Scholar (as I see them as impartial followers of law, some sort of bonus on restraint?)
N: Adjudicator (more as a maintain the balance, points against emotion effects)
CN: Rebel (kinda obvious, some sort of random effect ability)
...
Just ideas for now, because you never know haha

"...dragon disciple, shadowdancer, .... the shield-bearing iron wall!... "
Is it too much to hope we can see a few other prestige class archetypes. Arcane archer, [dwarven] defender, mystic theurge?

I really thought Mystic Theurge was the contender for an archetype (or even its own ACG class.) It was one of the hardest PrC to get into & didn't really take off until much later (post seeker level in PFS). (& yes I realize the natural spells let MT be viable, though that was its own problem).

I mean... have you seen how many deities have the magic domain? :)

Eldritch Archer is Arcane Archer, it just works with more than just Arcane.

Mystic Theurge will be covered by anything that will allow the use of both arcane and divine spell lists at the same time.

Does anyone know when this product should be the starting option for the subscription? I already have the other starting options

Does anyone know when this product should be the starting option for the subscription? I already have the other starting options

I have performed the necessary rituals and this book is now available as a starting option. :)

Hey wow! Did not expect that, wicked! Thank you

Gaulin wrote:

Does anyone know when this product should be the starting option for the subscription? I already have the other starting options

I have performed the necessary rituals and this book is now available as a starting option. :)

Where did you get all that chicken blood on such short notice?

Katina Davis wrote:

Gaulin wrote:

Does anyone know when this product should be the starting option for the subscription? I already have the other starting options

I have performed the necessary rituals and this book is now available as a starting option. :)

Where did you get all that chicken blood on such short notice?

What?!?

Eldritch Archer is Arcane Archer, it just works with more than just Arcane.

Thanks. I realized I skipped a page of this thread & that someone made the list from a twitch feed. :)

Re: mystic theurge, I thought the 1 spell slot per level of an multi-class archetype was too limiting. I only recently got to a 10th level caster and realized 3 spell slots per level is the norm! (What can I say? I wrote it down correctly but since I was so excited by my new spells/spell levels it never really clicked how few spell slots I had at lower levels. Cantrips automatically heighten too, so when I did look down my spell list I usually went to those. Yes I am a dork. :p )

Now I just need to look for the feats that let the two traditions merge. Mgaambian had something... APG seems a likely place for them. :)

Also. Now I need a theurge that can cast and blend all four traditions.

MWUHAHAHAHA

Gaulin wrote:

Does anyone know when this product should be the starting option for the subscription? I already have the other starting options

I have performed the necessary rituals and this book is now available as a starting option. :)

Has anyone seen my goat? I could swear I left him tied up somewhere around here..

Rysky wrote:

Eldritch Archer is Arcane Archer, it just works with more than just Arcane.

Thanks. I realized I skipped a page of this thread & that someone made the list from a twitch feed. :)

Re: mystic theurge, I thought the 1 spell slot per level of an multi-class archetype was too limiting. I only recently got to a 10th level caster and realized 3 spell slots per level is the norm! (What can I say? I wrote it down correctly but since I was so excited by my new spells/spell levels it never really clicked how few spell slots I had at lower levels. Cantrips automatically heighten too, so when I did look down my spell list I usually went to those. Yes I am a dork. :p )

Now I just need to look for the feats that let the two traditions merge. Mgaambian had something... APG seems a likely place for them. :)

Also. Now I need a theurge that can cast and blend all four traditions.

MWUHAHAHAHA

The Magaambyan archetypes can actually get all four traditions! If you play as a cascade bearer Halcyon Speaker and take the Cascade Bearer's spellcasting feat your Halcyon spells can come from any spell list! I might maybe have a Magaambyan wizard planned with this haha just need that Mwangi AP now....

Rysky wrote:

Eldritch Archer is Arcane Archer, it just works with more than just Arcane.

Thanks. I realized I skipped a page of this thread & that someone made the list from a twitch feed. :)

Re: mystic theurge, I thought the 1 spell slot per level of an multi-class archetype was too limiting. I only recently got to a 10th level caster and realized 3 spell slots per level is the norm! (What can I say? I wrote it down correctly but since I was so excited by my new spells/spell levels it never really clicked how few spell slots I had at lower levels. Cantrips automatically heighten too, so when I did look down my spell list I usually went to those. Yes I am a dork. :p )

Now I just need to look for the feats that let the two traditions merge. Mgaambian had something... APG seems a likely place for them. :)

Also. Now I need a theurge that can cast and blend all four traditions.

MWUHAHAHAHA

I believe that there is a feat if you belong to the Cascade Bearer Magyabaan tradition that will do that.

Bonus damage should probably be tied to agile or finesse weapons

Kinda hoping that's not the case. It fits with the Investigator to some degree, but the game could really use more options that aren't centered around agile and finesse weapons, especially with Swashbucklers in the same book having that bias too (or at least they did last time I checked).