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So why not buy them to read yourself? Are you feeling the same FOMO about every Adventure Path that comes out?
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I think "make the events in PFS scenarios relevant to the overall metaplot" is a thing that's done for the benefit of "People who do PFS" not "in order to make people who don't do PFS feel bad or whatever."
Like I didn't have a front row seat for the Pathfinder Society freeing Ranginori, but I also can just figure out enough of what happened from "The Pathfinder Society freed Ranginori" what with the specifics probably varying from table to table.
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So why not buy them to read yourself? Are you feeling the same FOMO about every Adventure Path that comes out?
To answer the first question, because reading isn't enough, they need to be played too. To do otherwise would be like buying a coloring book and then never actually coloring in it.
And to answer the second, honestly, yes. To date, out of 34 APs that have been released for Pathfinder alone, I've only ever played ONE (Iron Gods) to completion, and I feel like if I haven't played through them, I don't feel comfortable playing other stuff in the setting. To continue with the coloring book metaphor, I don't want to color outside the lines (and that's why even though I played through Iron Gods to completion, it still bothers me that our outcome for Kevoth-Kul was different from the canon outcome).
And it DOES frustrate me that there's maybe only one or two where the Pathfinder Society actually has some sort of presence or is the center of attention...
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So why not buy them to read yourself? Are you feeling the same FOMO about every Adventure Path that comes out?To answer the first question, because reading isn't enough, they need to be played too. To do otherwise would be like buying a coloring book and then never actually coloring in it.
And to answer the second, honestly, yes. To date, out of 34 APs that have been released for Pathfinder alone, I've only ever played ONE (Iron Gods) to completion, and I feel like if I haven't played through them, I don't feel comfortable playing other stuff in the setting. To continue with the coloring book metaphor, I don't want to color outside the lines (and that's why even though I played through Iron Gods to completion, it still bothers me that our outcome for Kevoth-Kul was different from the canon outcome).
And it DOES frustrate me that there's maybe only one or two where the Pathfinder Society actually has some sort of presence or is the center of attention...
You're *never* going to master the rodeo that is an AP volume and a Society scenario releasing every single month, and worrying about coloring inside the lines for a setting that is so huge and so dynamic is a losing game. Nobody is playing in the perfectly-canon version of Golarion, not even Paizo staff... cut yourself some slack!
Pathfinder's living world is a feature, not a bug, especially as it clears 15 years of age as a published setting. I don't know that they should pause all changes for the sake of folks who aren't playing; the people hitting Society tables each week wouldn't like that very much. Other worlds (Eberron, for instance) are pointedly static, but Golarion's been shaking itself up from the time of the very first Runelord shenanigans.
I gave it some thought and put the core dieties in 3 categories whether I think they are likely, somewhat, or not going to die.
Likely to die
Zon-Kuthon- He might be one of the most interesting to die as we would learn how he became corrupted which would be a big reveal. His death would have an effect on Nidal and Shely. I think it would be played as something tragic and likely the being who corrupted an evil from outside reality would take his place on the Pantheon.
Pharasma- Her death I could see being the reason for the war as the one person everyone trusts to be a partial arbiter of souls is gone and the war ends when a successor is in place.
Nethys- God of Magic is dead would have a major effect on the world and can be an interesting story to tell but DnD has told the story of the god of magic dying plenty of times that puts it into question.
Gorum- His death would have an interesting impact as violence would become less prevalent and if it does happen for both those seeking to inflict pain and those seeking to do good. If he dies I imagine there would be this kind of stagnation as conflicts exist but remain unresolved till a new war god ascends.
Gozreh- Would be very interesting if not possibly world ending as it will affect nature itself and seeing how the literal world of Golorian adapts and changes because of it could be very interesting.
Somewhat Likely to die
Urgathoa- I do not think she will die as the undead are an important point of the meta of happenings in Golarion and I think that will be dealt with more in the end of 2e.
Shelyn- Her dying could have an effect as love is something everyone feels but there deities take her place quickly enough that I think damage would be minimal and I think with the story between her brother I think it would be more interesting if he died.
Norgorber- I don’t think he will die as it will mainly affect the criminal element which is not the shake up I think we are going to see. Plus righting a story about a god who keeps practicality everything about him secret would remove his majesty as you need to reveal so much.
Irori- I think the biggest impact would be on the Vundri people as their head god dies but not much outside of that so very unlikely.
Erastil- I don’t think he will die as he is a deity that keeps to the small scale. His death would have ramication as he is a god of community but he is one other the least likely to be involved in a war as he keeps to himself and his family.
Desna- This is one of if not the favorite of James Jacob which lessons the likelihood that she will die. If she did die it would affect travel and nightmare would become more prevalent and if she died the Black Butterfly would likely take her place.
Calistria- She would have some impact on elves and how they deal with relationships and those seeking revenge but I think it would be very little as most people only turn to her when they have a need for her. So her death would not be impactful to other deities.
Lamashtu- The idea of her dying is interesting but in the sense that it will shake up the Abyss but I when it comes to Golorian it wouldn’t have as much as others.
Cayden Cailean-The god that is very connected to the idea of being an adventure would be an interesting choice. As it would affect the player character and adventuring would become harder in a meta sense. Though I feel that which deity dies will be replaced and depending and I think other gods getting replaced has more interesting implications.
Abadar- James Jacob killed him when he was just his homebrew deity so at least he might be the inspiration of what will happen but I don’t think it will be him. (He explored what happens to civilization when the god of it dies.)
Torag- His death will affect dwarves and crafts has a similar problem to Shelyn as his void could be filled quickly as his wife and children could easily fill the void as they are all working towards a common purpose already. Though why he dies and how that affects Dwarves would be a good story with interesting ramifications
Asmodeus- There is a meta reason for him to die as Paizo with the Remaster is moving away from DnD even getting rid of non OGL things to distinguish them more.And will he be in public domain in TTRPG space he is very D&D. His death would have ripple so he is a possibility.
Not going to die
Rovagug- In a cage because they couldn’t kill it, not going to die.
Sarenrae- Not going to die linked to cleric Iconic
Iomedae- Not going to die linked to champion Iconic
Given that Paizo's been moving away from always-chaotic-evil monster races, and opening up more monstrous types to be playable with their own cultures that have just as much capacity to harm or help as anyone else, I wonder if they might kill off Lamashtu to push that that? If they want to someday make playable medusas/sthenos, or lamiae, or [insert niche monster type here], then killing off the evil patron goddess and replacing her with a more nuanced one could make sense. And since disfigured people exist in our world as full, rounded individuals who usually get a lot of shit for their looks, it'd be nice to get rid of the goddess of "if you're born with a birth defect, you were literally cursed, and you might be evil."
I'd personally hate to lose Lamashtu RIGHT as we were also ditching alignment. Lamashtu I feel could lend itself to some nuance more so than a lot of evil gods, as a monstrous mother.
... To do otherwise would be like buying a coloring book and then never actually coloring in it .
('<.<) ... (>_>;)
Do other people not do this?!
What if one likes the uncoloured art just the way it is??
Carry on, I guess...
--C.
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Removed a baiting post. Feel free to speculate away, but keep it civil.
I think the most likely candidates are Pharasma and Asmodeus
Not only would their deaths Shake up the setting, they are the two of the core 20 who lost something what they are responsible off
Prophecy is gone and so one of pharasmas core interests just doesn't work anymore
And Asmodeus is also about slavery which (I don't know how) seemingly vanished from Golarion altogether. That and the fact that He is closest to His dnd counterpart lets me think a civil war in hell might be coming
In a Footnote to that: Aren't imps going to be lower outsiders for all planes in the remastered? I guess they also have to be Set free somehow
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With alignment being removed and "good" and "evil" no longer necessarily lining up one-to-one with being holy or unholy, I think a post-Asmodeus conflict in hell could be a lot more interesting and have more nuanced personalities that players could care about. The holy gods could also be less than perfect or have a genuine prick amongst their ranks that's aligned out of cosmic convenience rather than any sense of genuine benevolence towards mortals. Holy gods politcking to make sure their favored ruler of Hell gains power sounds like ripe fodder for drama, or at least Sarenrae cooperating with some sympathetic devils to sneak some souls out of Hell. Or maybe a holy god becomes unholy to fill that power vacuum in what they think at the time is the most expedient way to avoid a bloodbath, suffering the rejection of their old allies and the distrust of the other unholy gods.
Also gotta agree, it'd be disappointing to see Lamashtu go right when alignment's gone. Without being labelled as either good or evil per se, there's a lot more room for nuance with her that I would appreciate.
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I like Iomedae for this if she dies she can spend the last of her energy passing her mantle to Arazni (a goddess she used to worship) and complete the cycle. Bonus points if she doesn't give Arazani any choice in this as I love me some symmetry.
I would haaaaaaaaate this since Iomedae's been my favorite deity in the setting since the beginning, but it would be SO in-character for her if it did come to that that I'd have no choice but to accept it...
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I would haaaaaaaaate this since Iomedae's been my favorite deity in the setting since the beginning, but it would be SO in-character for her if it did come to that that I'd have no choice but to accept it...
Iomedae is a Veiled Master Plot *Points at Arodoen's Murder crazy wall* Good riddance I say!
*Ahem*
I am still in that Norgorber, Asmodeus, and Sarenare, all three will be the ones to uh perish.
As I commented in a different topic that had dragged itself around to the same topic... I expect that whoever it is, it won't be a female. They're clearly playing this as a major emotional impact and character development for lots of people and so forth... which means that if they make their very first on-screen deicide victim female, it's effectively a divine-tier fridging. I don't seem Paizo blundering like that.
Now, the second time a god goes down? Or if we lose more than one? fair game. I'm pretty sure that the first one is going to be male, though.
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My vote definitely goes to Asmodeus as being the one to die, even if mostly because of meta reasons.
That being said, having Hell descend into "civil war" from the power vacuum that Asmodeus' absence would cause would be perfect for both of our tables, since one of our tables has a high level Evil Hellknight PC whom could be one of the entities trying to vie for power, and another of our tables has re-emerging Hellknights as a plot point in the setting after the overthrowing of Asmodean worship in Cheliax (which our Evil characters in that group have determined that the grandchild of Thrune has discovered a way to call Devils from Hell back into the world of the living), so even ignoring meta reasons, Asmodeus being the one to die, even if behind the scenes, would be fitting for our tables.
A little thing that's been glossed over, technically the gender ratio of the core 20 is not 8:12 in favour of gods--it's 8:11:1. Gozreh is not a man, they are a dualistic entity that is probably best described as nonbinary for our intents and purposes. Which incidentally might be a reason to keep them off the chopping block, though if their death led to an interesting plotline tying in with these nature wardens and the Call of the Wild, I wouldn't necessarily mind.
I don't really want Asmodeus to die since I kind of like having "the Devil" as a major theological force in the setting, but ivhave to admit of the gods I like, I'd probably be least pained to see him go, and of the gods I wouldn't care if they cmgot axed, none would be dramatic enough to make their death worth it... with the possible exception that most of the Core 20 takes the fall, but it only ends up sticking for like Calistria.
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With alignment being removed and "good" and "evil" no longer necessarily lining up one-to-one with being holy or unholy, I think a post-Asmodeus conflict in hell could be a lot more interesting and have more nuanced personalities that players could care about. The holy gods could also be less than perfect or have a genuine prick amongst their ranks that's aligned out of cosmic convenience rather than any sense of genuine benevolence towards mortals.
I mean to be clear, they have stated there is still focus on good vs evil in setting and that removal of alignment doesn't mean celestials aren't still personification of concept of good and vice versa with devils.
That said, lack of alignment means its much easier justify Vildeis, the LG god of martys who acts like serial killer towards evil and Damerrich LG god of just executions(since its valid stance that executions are never "good")
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My vote definitely goes to Asmodeus as being the one to die, even if mostly because of meta reasons.
That being said, having Hell descend into "civil war" from the power vacuum that Asmodeus' absence would cause would be perfect for both of our tables, since one of our tables has a high level Evil Hellknight PC whom could be one of the entities trying to vie for power, and another of our tables has re-emerging Hellknights as a plot point in the setting after the overthrowing of Asmodean worship in Cheliax (which our Evil characters in that group have determined that the grandchild of Thrune has discovered a way to call Devils from Hell back into the world of the living), so even ignoring meta reasons, Asmodeus being the one to die, even if behind the scenes, would be fitting for our tables.
they mentioned in one of the reddit threads that the death(/s?) in question where put into place for purely story reasons and had nothing to do with ogl nonsense
I don't know if this possibility has been floated to the forums, but what if one of the deities in Starfinder dies, at the same time their pathfinder counterpart also dies. Like, this massive tear in reality from a paradox of a god dying in 2 points of time at once causes a massive ripple effect throughout the universe as a result.
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Random thoughts;
Abadar - too much like Aroden, IMO. Doesn't really promise any interesting change to the setting. He's even less relevant culturally, than Aroden.
Asmodeus - he *is* one of the less interesting Archdevils, IMO, so it would be intriguing to see Dispater, Mephistopheles or Mammon take over his spot. Plus, yes, Cheliax would be all aflutter, since the whole *point* of embracing the infernal system was it's *stability.* If Asmodeus can fall, how stable is it, really, they hitched their cart to this goat because it seemed *safer* than the alternative, and now it looks shaky...
Calistria - would have interesting effects on the elves, as a people, both to have 'their goddess' no longer in the 'top 20,' perhaps as a 'making the subtext, text' hint towards their own decreased relevance on Golarion, specifically, while also perhaps pumping up the faiths of the more elf-specific gods, and also sending some off in the direction of other patrons of lust (Nocticula), trickery (Sivanah) or vengeance (Gyronna).
Cayden Cailean - eh god, his death would also be eh, IMO.
Desna - oh no, nobody touches my totally-not-Elder-God!
Erastil - again, kinda boring, so no real drama here.
Gorum - his death *and* Asmodeus' death could lead to Dispater, the Iron General, taking over both of their niches. I need a moment. This excites me. But if Gorum dies, the armor needs to fly apart, and there be no body. Nobody knows if there was every anyone inside that armor, or if the god *was* the iron...
Gozreh - I like them too much, and while it could be neat for one of the Elemental gods to move in here, they are just too neat. Plus their death could result in terrible Eye of Abendago related shenanigans. Or, conversely, perhaps the Eye of Abendago could disperse with their death, and the remnant central isle of Ghol-Gan concealed all these years by the storm revealed? (new land opened up!) Did Gozreh create the Eye, deliberately? Was he containing the evil on this cyclopean isle, perhaps the same demon-lord that corrupted the Ghol-Gan in the first place?
Iomedae - her following in the martyr-y footsteps of Aroden and, kinda sorta, Arazni seems like a boring retread of a story we've already seen. Plus every setting needs someone who has 'god of Paladins' stamped on their brow, a Heironeous or Torm or Corean, and I like that she's not 100% like those previous 'paladin-gods.'
Irori - eh. Lacks drama.
Lamashtu - too much potential, as mentioned upthread, in an alignment adjacent setting, to explore her motherhood aspect, and potential conflicts with Pharasma in that niche.
Nethys - it would be totally in-character for him to blow himself up, or split into two halves and fight to the death in a cage-match, but also, been done (both the death of the god of magic, in the Realms, or the multiple gods of magic of different alignments, in Krynn).
Norgorber - three of the aspects of Norgorber coming together and ganking the fourth, that annoying color-blind murder-clown the Skinsaw Man, would be absolutely my cup of tea. So it won't happen.
Pharasma - not likely. I'm not a huge fan of her, but she was here to turn on the lights, and she'll be hear to turn them off at the end of all things.
Rovagug - fulfills a vital role just where he is, as a source of festering corruption, wrath and violence, deep within Golarion.
Sarenrae - The effects of her falling and being replaced by some other Empyreal Lord (like Ragathiel!) could be amazing, as well as for the shocking violent changes that her death would bring about to Qadira and 'greater Kel.' Nothing seems more likely to set that eastern empire on the march to war against all of Avistan than the death of their patron goddess. (So much the more so if she dies in a fight that some regional Avistani god, like Asmodeus, survives, and they can 'blame' his 'cowardice' or 'treachery' for the death of their goddess. Cheliax must be purged, and all those weak nations that surrounded it and yet did nothing to stop it all those years!)
Shelyn - the notion that herself or her brother might be mortally wounded during the fight, and one or the other feel compelled to merge the two into a single god, dark and beautiful, an artist of anguish, could be totally cool. A goth-y non-evil god(dess) into piercings and tattoos and body modification? Yes, please.
Torag - as with Asmodeus being the least interesting Archdevil, Torag is one of the less interesting dwarven gods, to me. Magrim or Bolka moving in to take up the leadership after Torag's fall seems like it could lead to some interesting changes to dwarven society. Droskar, of course, would try to slide in to the spot, but eff that guy. (Dwarven civil war!) Magrim would make an interesting choice if Pharasma *also* stepped down. Bolka, the same, if Erastil or Shelyn bit it.
Urgathoa - she's a bit of a non-entity, it feels like, and replacing her with a Daemon Harbinger, or with some other undead-friendly sort like Kabriri or Zura could be interesting, but the number one choice to replace her, IMO, would be Tar-Baphon, who is, IMO, a much more interesting choice for 'god of undead.'
Zon-Kuthon - see Shelyn. Name the new god(dess) Shay-Thon? Sheybral? Doulyn? So many ports to manteau...
So, kill 'em and make new stories!
Yes - Asmodeus, Urgathoa, Shelyn (merged with Zon-Kuthon)
I could see it - Calistria, Gozreh, Gorum, Norgorber (1/4th), Sarenrae, Torag
Nah, boring, no drama - Abadar, Cayden Cailean, Erastil, Iomedae, Irori, Lamashtu, Nethys, Pharasma, Rovagug,
Never! - Desna
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Wow, we found the one Gozreh fan. ^^
Anyway, the fact that absolutely everybody so far has said "no way it's going to be Pharasma!" kinda makes me want it to be her, just for teh lulz.
The statement is that this deity's death creates more story opportunties than they currently do alive. In the case of Pharasma, on the one hand having one absolute judge of the dead with jurisdiction over everyone regardless of ancestry, culture, or beliefs is pretty limiting in some ways. On the other hand, how many groups really interact with death and the afterlife in any meaningful fashion other than deciding whether resurrection is allowed or banned in session zero? It's probably not a big number.
The statement is that this deity's death creates more story opportunties than they currently do alive.Wait is that an actual statement or just our speculation? I missed it if devs stated that
It's an actual statement. I can't remember exactly who said it, but they said that they have been considering this for a while and that this particular death will create a bunch of stories.
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It's an actual statement. I can't remember exactly who said it, but they said that they have been considering this for a while and that this particular death will create a bunch of stories.The statement is that this deity's death creates more story opportunties than they currently do alive.Wait is that an actual statement or just our speculation? I missed it if devs stated that
Which puts the bulls-eye on the gods who have the biggest footprint on the Inner Sea map, Asmodeus and Sarenrae. The death of either could lead to nations collapsing or marching to war!
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It's an actual statement. I can't remember exactly who said it, but they said that they have been considering this for a while and that this particular death will create a bunch of stories.The statement is that this deity's death creates more story opportunties than they currently do alive.Wait is that an actual statement or just our speculation? I missed it if devs stated that
It was on the other thread about this (in the Lost Omens boards) :
I just hope this isn't like Marvel/DC event comics where authors make decisions to kill off minor characters willy nilly thinking "nobody cares if they die" and using them as canon fodder
We've been thinking about this for literal years and have gone through numerous iterations on the story, setting impacts, etc.
Ultimately, someone will be upset about their favorite deity dying, because every one of the core 20 is someone's favorite, and emotional impact requires emotional investment. And we have no intention of doing a "Civil War" or "Spellplague" that makes the setting we all love unrecognizable. But we do want to do big things, tell big stories, and let the PCs see the world change around them through events that they get to experience and even influence via our rulebooks, adventures, and novels.
And this event will definitely open up the world for new stories, new villains, new heroes, and new conflicts. Which, at the end of the day, are the things we're all here for.
New villains and new conflicts are the biggest clues IMO, but could apply to several deities. (Pharasma, Asmodeus and Urgathoa are my personal bets in that order).
People have theorized Pharasma might be the one to bite it because they mentioned something about immortality in live stream
Basically, the whole schtick of the book is in ways for people to become immortal. Both of the classes get it, and it's full of archetypes that get it too. Also, the death of the God in question is the inciting event of the book.
We look at the Core 20, we say "off of this list, if we were to pick one to kill, which one is the most likely to result in a sudden profusion of immortals and proto-immortals? One name in particular jumps out.
People have theorized Pharasma might be the one to bite it because they mentioned something about immortality in live streamBasically, the whole schtick of the book is in ways for people to become immortal. Both of the classes get it, and it's full of archetypes that get it too. Also, the death of the God in question is the inciting event of the book.
We look at the Core 20, we say "off of this list, if we were to pick one to kill, which one is the most likely to result in a sudden profusion of immortals and proto-immortals? One name in particular jumps out.
Where'd you find the information about the archetypes?
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Where'd you find the information about the archetypes?
Stated outright on the livestream, towards the beginning.
The main issue with Pharasma is that the only thing keeping Groetus from ending the setting is that he is not yet powerful enough to kill Pharasma. So if Pharasma dies, it doesn't just cause a war, it causes the apocalypse. I do think she'd be a very interesting choice, but they'd have to deal with that small problem to make it work.
An "easy" solution to that would be both Pharasma and Groetus biting it I suppose.
An "easy" solution to that would be both Pharasma and Groetus biting it I suppose.
Yeah, they only said that "one of the Core 20 gods will die" in these books. It doesn't say anything about how many non-Core 20 gods will die. And Groetus is definitely in the latter category.
It even gives an explanation - Groetus takes his shot, and it winds up with both of them dying (possibly due to heroic intervention)
That said, the fact that it's apparently going to be possible to repeatedly punch the sun without being immediately ganked by a goddess suggests its own candidate....
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Yeah, that's the thing. Groetus doesn't really have feelings one way or the other about the end of the world. He's just there to do his thing when the time comes and not much else after. The only reason people are scared of him is because of what he represents (and causes flashbacks for Majora's Mask players).
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Yeah, that's the thing. Groetus doesn't really have feelings one way or the other about the end of the world. He's just there to do his thing when the time comes and not much else after. The only reason people are scared of him is because of what he represents (and causes flashbacks for Majora's Mask players).
Any creature short of a deity who contacts Groetus going raving mad likely does not help.
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I mean Groetus is just waiting for apocalypse to happen, Pharasma feeding him atheists hasn't been canon in forever
Yeah, the sense I've gotten is that Groetus isn't even particularly powerful, and Pharasma could end Groetus instantly if she wanted to. It's just that Groetus has a role to play in sweeping up when the universe is dying. He's more of a divine janitor than an a direct threat to anybody.
Man the build up to War of the Immortals is increasing anxiety to me x'D I want to know which of the named gods we know die so I can stop fretting about itPeople have theorized Pharasma might be the one to bite it because they mentioned something about immortality in live stream
I will also note that they specifically said "ripped in half" in the stream and there are two gods with neat perforations for a clean bisection: Nethys and Gozreh. Pharasma dying would be more of a "stabbed through the heart" kind of thing
It's entirely possible that what's causing all the new options for immortality is not "Pharasma's not around to police it anymore (after all, it was her entire bureaucracy that was responsible for that anyway) but the sudden abundance of magic and life energy that's newly available.
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I mean Groetus is just waiting for apocalypse to happen, Pharasma feeding him atheists hasn't been canon in foreverYeah, the sense I've gotten is that Groetus isn't even particularly powerful, and Pharasma could end Groetus instantly if she wanted to. It's just that Groetus has a role to play in sweeping up when the universe is dying. He's more of a divine janitor than an a direct threat to anybody.
Man the build up to War of the Immortals is increasing anxiety to me x'D I want to know which of the named gods we know die so I can stop fretting about itPeople have theorized Pharasma might be the one to bite it because they mentioned something about immortality in live streamI will also note that they specifically said "ripped in half" in the stream and there are two gods with neat perforations for a clean bisection: Nethys and Gozreh. Pharasma dying would be more of a "stabbed through the heart" kind of thing
It's entirely possible that what's causing all the new options for immortality is not "Pharasma's not around to police it anymore (after all, it was her entire bureaucracy that was responsible for that anyway) but the sudden abundance of magic and life energy that's newly available.
For a clean bisection, Urgathoa may apply too. Death of the goddess of Undeath might release some interesting energy with Immortal properties.
Note also that several deities dying has been confirmed (and several new appearing too).