Painter Worshipper of Shelyn

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78 posts. Alias of Jarednj.


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How does Iomedae think of Aranzi?


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Gisher wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Gisher wrote:
The Daikyu now has a reload of "0" rather than "–" and it now has the propulsive trait.
That's fun; you take a Composite Longbow and trade out losing Deadly d10 for not having to deal with Volley at all. I don't know if it's a great trade (is Volley a big deal? I don't feel like I've ever heard about it), but at least the Daikyu has an identity now.
Avoiding volley without needing access to point-blank shot seems nice, but I'm not clear how you get access to a Daikyu. It's weird that it still lacks the monk trait. I thought it was intended for use with Monastic Archer Stance. (It's also weird that this line is still in the description despite the fact that the game doesn't have any rules for facing: "Using a daikyu while mounted limits its ring range to your left side.")

It uncommon because it sense it a real world Japanese weapon and would be from Tian Xia not the Inner Sea.


Malgwyn wrote:
Do we know when it's going to be released?

They not giving a specific date because things can change but they are well into making the character creator and expect to show off some of it soon.


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Those are just bad gm and I think the hierarchy of importance of the code is very clear. It starts with the tenants of good or evil which has your deities anathema at the top. So a liberator of Cayden Cailean would be:

I won't waste alcohol, be mean or standoffish when drunk, own a slave, or willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell.
I will never knowingly harm an innocent, or allow immediate harm to one through inaction when you know you could reasonably prevent it.
I must respect the choices others make over their own lives, and you can’t force someone to act in a particular way or threaten them if they don’t
I must demand and fight for others’ freedom to make their own decisions. You may never engage in or countenance slavery or tyranny.


My two sense of the matter.

Arcane know through study so intelligence

Occult is about stories and narratives. These things are created and manipulated through charisma but when studying these things your breaking down into patterns and component parts, so it is intelligence.

Nature is the most strange as it in are world is actual science but it more spiritual. I think the most common way of understanding nature is through a spiritual connection those nature is wisdom and more scientific is covered in lore skills.

Religion is mostly understood through constipation interpatient. It not just memorization but understanding the application and the fact that there is more then one interpretation, so wisdom.


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GM_3826 wrote:

I don't like how the road least traveled for bards is to pour all their points into Charisma and Performance and never touch Intelligence or Occultism. I also think that the defining class for a spell list should be a prepared spellcasting class because an occult class can make use of the entire list rather than a select subset of spells.

Witch has the right ability spread and spellcasting style, but is an any list caster who derives their power from their patron, not their understanding of or connection to the subject of their tradition. Wizards fall under the former category: clerics and druids the latter. (No, abberations and spirits are not the subject of occultism any more than dragons are the subject of Arcana.)

Psychics are a spontaneous spellcasting class like the bard, and psychic magic is presented as a specialized subset of occult magic common only in select regions, which rubs me the wrong way.

It feels like if I want to play as a seer or a medium I have to take some kind of back door. Either a. become a performer, b. make a pact with some mysterious and powerful entity, or c. become a psychic. D, where you intuitively understand the threads of fate or the world of spirits and are a scholar of the weird and inexplicable is currently not an option, and I wish it were.

Bard with Enigma muse seem very much like they would want intelligence as they have most inventive compared to the other muses and even then it does mean they completely ignore it. Bards can be scholars and in fact songs and stories are common ways people pass these things down things bard would study and flavor paragraph of the bard says that they can be scholars. Also a witch can be a scholar or any class. You don't have to get magic through study to be a scholar and most I would say seek a deeper understanding of there magic that is why they are trained in the skill. So your D option is not about having a class similar to the wizard but how you portray your character.

I also disagree on your point on prepared caster vs spontaneous. Yes prepared have an easier time preparing other spell but no class uses all the spells on there list.


Luke Styer wrote:

I’d be very interested in this service if I were just getting started with 2E so my initial book purchases were “compatible,” but I’m a day-one whole-line subscriber to 2E, so if I were going to jump into this, at least the way I understand the pricing, I have to either drop several hundred dollars at once to be able to use content I’ve already purchased or I’d be buying into a hobbled system. Neither of those appeals to me.

I can only assume I’m not the target market, because if I am and this is how they’re targeting me it’s a big miss. On the other hand, I’m not sure I understand how wise it is to not target folks who are deeply invested in the game your product supports.

In either event, unless I totally misunderstand the pricing structure or, in the alternative, some other pricing structure appears, I’ll be staying away from this service, and every product that I purchase outside this service will push me farther away. That said, I wish them luck.,

One thing to remember is that it is not official launch. With the compendium being free it even clear then it already was that we are paying for features and not all of them are out yet. And yes at this stage you would have to pay for the whole book but later you can just buy parts.

For I would check out the features through the free primer see how you like there tooltips and the character sheet when they get that up and running. Decided passed on that if it worth investing in and by that point you should be able to buy parts individually and can just get what you need at that moment.


DogBoySB wrote:
There is something I would like clarified, as it stands now the FAQ heavily implies that you lose access to the free pdf if you delete your nexus account as it was not "purchased directly from paizo" but given freely by nexus.

I don't think it implies as the question for there digital content the pdf is provided by Paizo not Demiplane. It is up to Paizo not Demiplane what would happen to the pdf.


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pauljathome wrote:

I didn't say that Shelyn would consider crude Art to not be Art.

What I'm claiming is the concept that some art is crude and some isn't, the idea that some art is greater than other art (stated outright in her Anathema) strongly implies to me that there IS an objective standard (or something closely approximating one) by which the relative merits of different pieces of Art can be measured.

So yeah, maybe everything that anybody considers to be Art IS Art. But a lot of it may be pretty bad art.

I think crude art is more referring to skill of the artist. Shelyn admires all creative endeavors no matter the skill level. Crude to me is not ref

I actually going to school to become a Graphic Designer, so I have an opinion on what is consider art. Art to me is about bring a ideas to life. An interesting art piece to me is One and Three Chairs a conceptual art piece as it challanges what makes something something. There are so many beautiful ways to create an express yourselves and that is what Shelyn care about. I also don't think she distinguish think crafts are not art as that itself is separation only found in western culture in our world and I would consider only in Avistan in Golorian. SO weather you making a quilts, a pots, representational art oil painting, abstract expressionism, and everything beyond and in-between.

The only art I can imagine Shelyn being against is artistic endeavors intended to hurt and disadvantage others.

Just because you don't like Maurizio Cattelan style of conceptual art pieces (as modern art is technically it own style period I now it stupid) or any kind of style or medium. They are artist that have there own way of expression and not everyone will gel with every style.


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Erastil is also more home focus and in are career focus society for the longest time the home has been regulated to women and that perspective was accidently put into him.

I do believe that a place that James Jacob to put correction as he has mentioned that he think there should be a lore errata page.


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Below is a post by staff on Demiplane forum about the pricing
____________________________
Thanks for the feedback, and I will be straightforward and transparent with our response to it - the economics of our licensing agreement make this the case.

For all future releases, you will be able to take advantage of the Pathfinder Nexus + PDF pricing. For those previous purchases, we have to make those adjustments based on the way our licensing works.

We (naturally) felt it was still very worthwhile to allow for as much of a discount as possible on those previous purchases instead of the alternative of providing no discount.

Thanks again!
_____________________________

The pricing of 29.99 is for unavoidable economics of them needing a license from Paizo. Also have a physical copy and a digital one are two different and only the price is comparable. It should also be noted when buying your also paying for the integration of the tools which should become a better and better deal over time.


captivator architype is going to have an errata as there is problem with dedication and another feat being first lvl. Which is a mistake according to Mark.


A book in the Lost Omens Line.


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Despite that, the Eidolon entry also says:

Quote:
...each draws upon a particular tradition of magic and manifests from related essence.

Meaning that you are not bringing the creature but "creating" it.

It also say:
"Though a true angel, your angel eidolon’s link to you
as a mortal prevents them from casting the angelic
messenger ritual, even if they somehow learn it."

"Your eidolon is a lost soul, bound to the mortal world
by undying anger or a bitter grudge."

"Your eidolon is a demon, born of mortal sin
congealed amid the chaos and evil of the Abyss,
using its link to you to spread chaos at your side."

"Because dragons have a strong connection to magic,
their minds can often leave an echo floating in the
Astral Plane. Such an entity is extremely powerful but
unable to interact with the outside world on its own.
Dragon eidolons manifest in the powerful, scaled forms
they had in life;"

Each Eidolon types gives a description of what it is or how it came to be.


Sheyln has two skills offer performance and crafting. If your a cleric and background makes you trained in one do you have to pick the other or can you just pick a skill like normal if you got the skill from somewhere else?


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They hope to here update from last item (tech revolution) in next hour an likely create order this afternoon and start shipping tomorrow or Wednesday.


They hope to here update from last item (tech revolution) in next hour an likely create order this afternoon and start shipping tomorrow or Wednesday.


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I think for TN tenants of preservations I think would work. Pharasma want to protect the cycle of life and death, Gozreh wants it for nature, and Nethys to protect and spread magic. Brigh cares about protecting and expanding artificial life.


It should be noted the shipping estimate have not changed.


One his main goal is the expansion and growth of society and teaches that wealth and comfort are a way to achieve happiness. Neither of these things are good or evil. He cares about wealth and the health and expansion of city's and not much else.


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"Magus now have Hybrid Studies instead of synthesis: Two handed, laughing shadow which is high movement and free hand, Shield sword and board, archer, staves."

Got this from a reddit post that went over what was revealed in the secrets of magic panel.

Reddit Post.


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August release schedule thread us up they said not all products are in the warehouse don't know if Secret of Magic is one of them but we should not if there are any changes to release on Thursdays.

August new release thread..


It has already been delayed twice I think the push back to expecting at the 25th because of shipping issues.


I have work so, I'll will catch it on Youtube.


Unless you manually put it in you have to buy it on Roll20. Once you buy Foundry you own it and don't have to pay again. There are tech requirements to run it (they are on their website).


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The Raven Black wrote:

Most casters named here are BBEG. A Druid BBEG is a bit more complicated to motivate than a Wizard. And a Cleric BBEG is only a servant for their evil deity.

Not to mention that Evil theocracy seems to be a theme absent from Golarion.

Nidal says hi


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The errata includes rules that drawing a tool to use them in an action as part of that action, so the psychic battle medicine is dead.

CRB 287 "You can make a set of tools (such as alchemist’s tools or healer’s tools) easier to use by wearing it. This allows you to draw and replace the tools as part of the action that uses them."


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graystone wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
Perhaps I’m wrong on healers tools, I just assumed all kits use two hands and the worn items text on tools worn in that way describes them as being usable with one hand (and you’re limited to 2Bulk tools worn in this way)

Yes, kits use 2 hands: full stop. Nothing under worn reduces this number that I can see. Worn alter only the number of actions to draw it but does nothing to number of hands.

This means battle medicine is untenable for the majority of characters I'd want it on as they don't have 2 hands free.

bugleyman wrote:
248: To reflect the clarification on healer's tools allowing you to draw them as part of the action if you're wearing them, change the Requirements to "You are holding healer's tools, or you are wearing them and have a hand free"
Cool but that doesn't override the 2 hands needed to use the tools that this says in the errata "This means you need to use your healer's tools for Battle Medicine, but you can draw and replace worn tools as part of the action due to the errata on wearing tools on page 287." As I said, unless they've changed how many hands you need to use the healers tools, that errata quote means it needs 2 hands.

My logic in how it is one had is that it either holding or wearing in a bandolier has it a bandolier is like holding it in two hands and so you only need a hand to take it out. That's is how I interpret it.


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LarsC wrote:
Creative Burst wrote:
Have you redownload it because I did and mine does.
Yep - I redownloaded the pdf. I'm looking at a pdf with "2nd printing" in its filename. I'm seeing on page 288 there is no mention of an item called "bandolier," which makes me believe I'm looking at the updated pdf. And then on pages 75 and 76, I'm seeing armor mastery / expertise class features that only name light armor and unarmored defense, with no mention of medium armor. The list of class features on page 72 also only mentions light armor proficiency increases at 13th and 19th levels.

Look on page 71 and yea the proficiency increases are not there.


Have you redownload it because I did and mine does.


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Xenocrat wrote:
graystone wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
So you need a hand free to use a worn item, right?

Yes. Worn just changes how many actions it takes to draw/retrieve it.

PS: I also wanted to note that the FAQ page is VERY hard to read, possibly because of my colorblindness. Any chance of swapping the color to easier to read ones?

And does this actually settle battlefield medicine?

Yes

Page 258: In Battle Medicine, change the Requirements entry to “You are holding or wearing healer's tools.” Change the second sentence of the effect to “Attempt a Medicine check with the same DC as for Treat Wounds, and restore a corresponding amount of Hit Points; this does not remove the wounded condition.” This means you need to use your healer's tools for Battle Medicine, but you can draw and replace worn tools as part of the action due to the errata on wearing tools on page 287.


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I think it more of the fact that the CRB is the core rules and everything else is an add-on. So I think for non-society it more on what books the GM has allowed and CRB that there assuming is generally used. For Society, I think sense, not every player will have every book this system is to help balance between a player who has all the books and one who just made it with CRB.


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graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Again, distinction without a difference.

I'm beginning to think you don't understand what that phrase means as there ARE very clear and distinct differences between the two specifically put in place to make an eidolon NOT a summoned creature. An eidolon can, for instance, "summon other creatures, create things of value, or cast spells that require a cost" where a summoned can't. They can't be banished or targeted but effects that work on summoned. THEY ARE NOT SUMMONED CREATURES and act and react differently to the game world: as such it isn't semantics and far from irrelevant to point out that they and summoned are NOT the same. Do you think Circle of Protection, Antimagic Field, Protection works on them like a summoned creature? If not, it's NOT summoned. Do you think Final Sacrifice works on them? If not, they are not a summoned creature.

Summoned
Source Core Rulebook pg. 637
A creature called by a conjuration spell or effect gains the summoned trait.

Manifest eidolon
Playtest
Your eidolon doesn’t have the summoned or minion trait

I think this a yes but no situation. Mechanically speaking it not a summon as it does have the tag or limitation of a summon. But thematically it is a creature that is summoned making it a summon in that since.


Verzen wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
Verzen wrote:


There is a 25% chance of creating the exact same Eidolon at level 1.

And a 100% chance of creating an Eidolon that feels practically the same at level 1 since every single Eidolon feels the same. Their level 1 ability is meh and doesn't really change much of the feel of them.

Vezren, I just laid out the mechanical differences in Eidolons at level 1. Theres a ton of them.

And I didnt even have to pull out the "in a roleplaying game, descriptive differences of appearance, personality and being are all fully relevant whether you like it or not".

Its simply factually not true that any Eidolons are identical, unless their creators intend for them to be so.

No. There isn't. Show me where there is customization with the Eidolon itself aside from "picking an Eidolon package"

There isn't. No. Skills do not count. Eidolons suck at all skills and have zero skill feats.

Using your imagination to say well, their attacks are different. No. They aren't. They ALL deal 1d8 damage. They have zero crunch. I don't know how else I can explain this to you.

Skills an Eilodolns can be good at

Athletics
Acrobatics
Stealth
Thievery

Also I think there is a chance Eilodolns could have varied ability scores but I don't know by how much. I think they're so similar in the palytest is so it a constant in the data.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:


I hope they re-think this before release. No matter how many people want to make summoner fans believe they need some kind of blood bond with their eidolon, that is not what the majority of PF1 summoner fans wanted in a summoner class. Summoning a pet or minion is about having a powerful creature under your control that will die for you if necessary, not with you.

Honestly, I don't get this point of view there are plenty of ways to summon minions in this game.The idea of Eidolon being another minion only meant to serve is boring to me. Plus I think if and Eidolon was regulated to being a minion it would have all the restrates that all other minions have. Which would make it much weaker. We don't need a bond techically the summoner does need to be a class it could have been an archytype. But the bond themanicically interesting to me. This may not be interesting to you. Plus you can't speak for all summoner player PF1 no one can.


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Falgaia wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
-Poison- wrote:
manbearscientist wrote:


Had they been playing a 6 HP per level class with a 6-8 HP per level Eidolon that demanifested when unconscious, they would have gone down and the fight probably would have been lost. This is even worse than just being an 8 HP druid in that scenario, as not only class HP important to survive but the animal companion can still act a little while he's dropped.

Or you could be a 6HP caster that's able to lifelink the 10HP Eidolon the health it needs to tank the hit instead; a more flavorful and elegant solution in the mind of many.

And just straight up massively more powerful, as it's literally two character's worth of hp with no drawbacks.

Thats not balanced.

Last I checked a animal companion is a d8 creature? Maybe d6. And a ranger is a d10 class. Witch amounts to 10+ con and 6/8+con worth in classes. That's not even discussing a barbarian taking the beast master dedication.

And I do not believe the druid with animal companion is the fairer option just because you have 4 slots.

So a 6hp summoner with 10hp eidolon is not past the curve by any stretch of the imagination. Because you are not a full caster, but part of you is technically a full martial, just without any feats.

Would the life link have an action cost? If not, it just sounds like you're building a frontliner with d16 Class Hit Die and 2x Con, which is much different from an Animal Companion who regularly runs max HP somewhere between 50-75% that of a Martial.

@krispy do you know which thread the Seifter quote about exploration is in? Its how I assumed it worked but the confirmation is always welcome.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436gn?Exploration-and-the-Summoner


For Ranger and Druid an animal companion is optional and they are completely functional without one. The same for any class with the beast master. Eidolon is not and is integral to the summoner so how they are balanced together as the core of class are these two working together.


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Temperans wrote:

You know you could always just let players pick how HP works without costing a feat. But so many of you are very against even having evolution points because they are "too many choices".

So I don't know anymore.

The problem with the evolution system is balancing it against the feats. If eidolon it will affect the kind and how many feats we have or the power of the class could rise too quickly. Having evolution be tied to feat is better as it a system of power progression already integrated into to system. The way familiar works won't work here as an eidolon is meant to be in combat. If we got evolution points I think we get a lot fewer feats which I think will be a bad thing.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Creative Burst wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

And that's where the agree to disagree begins. Life Link was a choice to sacrifice personal life force to have the Eidolon maintain its connection to the Material Plane. The Summoner was not bound to do so whatsoever other than because they wanted to (or were dominated to for some reason, who knows, but beside the point).

Compare that to "You share the same HP, and anything that affects one affects the other, which stacks," and you are talking about a completely different mechanic that does not even closely match the intent or capability of Life Link in PF1.

Again, saying you liked Lifelink more is valid.

Saying being able to share HP doesn't make sense but you were fine with Lifelink is not, it's hypocritical.

It's hardly hypocritical, any more than saying you like the Shield Cantrip, but not like wielding a Sturdy Shield.

You can have all kinds of different reasons to dislike things that have differences, such as not requiring a free hand (or speaking), liking the automatic scaling hardness that doesn't eat into your WBL, being straight-jacketed into one shield type and nothing else because they break too damn easy, and so on.

We're taking something too much at face value and not taking into account the significant differences they possess, and the ramifications and consequences behind those differences. You want shared HP? Fine. Now you're being nuked twice by the same higher-level Fireball. I really doubt players find that to be a fun or enjoyable mechanic unless they are on the dealing end of that exchange.

You don't get nuked twice you get once just like everyone else because you take the worse result and there is 10th lvl feat that makes you take the better.
Okay, so it's not unlike playing a game of Chess, except instead of having a King and a Queen, you now have 2 Kings. It's objectively twice as easy to Checkmate you, and...

Except your part of a party, it not just your eidolon but your fellow player to have your back. Playing each other strengths and covering weaknesses is part of the game. Summoner may have a lower ac but so does wizard and cloistered cleric and just like them they expect other character to help keep them from harms way.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

And that's where the agree to disagree begins. Life Link was a choice to sacrifice personal life force to have the Eidolon maintain its connection to the Material Plane. The Summoner was not bound to do so whatsoever other than because they wanted to (or were dominated to for some reason, who knows, but beside the point).

Compare that to "You share the same HP, and anything that affects one affects the other, which stacks," and you are talking about a completely different mechanic that does not even closely match the intent or capability of Life Link in PF1.

Again, saying you liked Lifelink more is valid.

Saying being able to share HP doesn't make sense but you were fine with Lifelink is not, it's hypocritical.

It's hardly hypocritical, any more than saying you like the Shield Cantrip, but not like wielding a Sturdy Shield.

You can have all kinds of different reasons to dislike things that have differences, such as not requiring a free hand (or speaking), liking the automatic scaling hardness that doesn't eat into your WBL, being straight-jacketed into one shield type and nothing else because they break too damn easy, and so on.

We're taking something too much at face value and not taking into account the significant differences they possess, and the ramifications and consequences behind those differences. You want shared HP? Fine. Now you're being nuked twice by the same higher-level Fireball. I really doubt players find that to be a fun or enjoyable mechanic unless they are on the dealing end of that exchange.

You don't get nuked twice you get once just like everyone else because you take the worse result and there is 10th lvl feat that makes you take the better.


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Verzen wrote:
Creative Burst wrote:
Verzen wrote:

Right here.

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Summoner

You can't just ignore the history in the game out of convenience.

The only thing I see that might contradict is fleshwarping reasearch and this might be a signal that there retconing and it wouldn't be there first lore to get changes either. So the general lore I got from the wiki this seem to be in line with. If you think differently please point out specifically.

Retconning 'one' aspect of summoner lore does not retcon 'all' aspects of summoner lore.

Any word on why they retconned fleshwarping research?

I said might as I don't know.

"While many who dabble in the arcane become adept at beckoning monsters from the farthest reaches of the planes, none are more skilled at it than the summoner. This practitioner of the arcane arts forms a close bond with one particular outsider, known as an eidolon, who gains power as the summoner becomes more proficient at his summoning. Over time, the two become linked, eventually even sharing a shard of the same soul. But this power does not come without a price: the summoner's spells and powers are limited due to his time spent enhancing the power and exploring the nature of his eidolon."

This is the main description from the wiki page you shared. What lore can we get form this and how does it relate to the 2e Summoner.

Summoner is the best at summoning- With in the playtest summon animal is part of the divine and with some summon specific feat I think it reasonable to expect using summon spell will be a feature in how it design. Plus the fact the eildolon is more powerful then any other summon creature this is true for the 2e summoner.

A close bond with one particular outsider, known as an eidolon- only the beast does not seem the fit that deception since it comes form the material plane but is still very mystical, and with what they other most of them will be outsiders and so I think 2e summon fits this very well.

Gains power as the summoner becomes more proficient at his summoning-easy this come naturally as we lvl up.

The two become linked, eventually even sharing a shard of the same soul- sharing of hp, action, skill, telepathic communication, etc.

Yea nothing seem to really contradict.


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Verzen wrote:

Right here.

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Summoner

You can't just ignore the history in the game out of convenience.

The only thing I see that might contradict is fleshwarping reasearch and this might be a signal that there retconing and it wouldn't be there first lore to get changes either. So the general lore I got from the wiki this seem to be in line with. If you think differently please point out specifically.


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The shared hp and action is an example of the Synchronization trope. So no I don't think it makes it looks like the same creature. It only feels that way if you only define eidolons by its hp and ability to take action. The concept of a summoner that feels the pain of what they summon is found in pop culture, so saying it not a summoner is ridiculous to me. The shared action and hp help make it interesting and set it apart not only in power but flavor than another summons. If we gave them different actions and hp they would likely be regulated to how minion act in the game and that will severely weaken it. There are benefits and drawbacks to sharing these. I like the tandem feats and expect to see more when the class is released and with shared hp it easier to tack and heal. It also requires you to think and be creative about how you act which I really like.


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I'm curious how we are all building are the summoner and what ability scores we feel are most important to building one.

I have made a one with Gnome/Assimar with the emissary background.

Stats Str -8 Dex 12 Con 12 Wis 14 Int 14 Cha 18

I built mine with the focus on skills with my summoner handling mental and eidolon on physical. I wanted a good spell dc and improve social skills so I went all-in on charisma. I plan for my summoner to be far away from combat but didn't totally want my AC total neglected so instead of having a 14 on con I put a boost in dex.

I chose angelkin as my 1st ancestry feat, so I have a lot of languages for flavor and range of skills. One of the benefits of a summoner is having two stat blocks but balancing the limited resource have.


Claxon wrote:
Creative Burst wrote:

The answer is easy his problem is based on the premise that you have to draw your instrument as a separate action but that is not the case. The problem is based on an action that is completely unnessary.

" A focus is an object that funnels the magical energy of the spell. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to either have a free hand to retrieve the focus listed in the spell or already be holding the focus in your hand. As part of Casting the Spell, you retrieve the focus (if necessary), manipulate it, and can stow it again if you so choose.

Foci tend to be expensive, and you need to acquire them in advance to Cast the Spell." Core Rulebook pg. 303

You've said this twice now I believe, and I'm not sure whether or not it's true or whether or not I agree with it.

Certainly if it's true it removes the problem the OP is having trouble with.

But the rules about bards substituting an instrument don't call it a focus. It simply says you can replace material and verbal components and don't need an extra free hand.

Quote:

You draw upon magic from esoteric knowledge. You can cast occult spells using the Cast a Spell activity, and you can supply material, somatic, and verbal components when casting spells (see Casting Spells on page 302). Because you’re a bard, you can usually play an instrument for spells requiring somatic or material components, as long as it takes at least one of your hands to do so. If you use an instrument, you don’t need a spell component pouch or another hand free. You can usually also play an instrument for spells requiring verbal components, instead of speaking.

Where are you finding rules that clearly indicate that the instrument is a focus?

"Page 303: In the Component Substitutions sidebar,

replace the second paragraph with the following to avoid
implying changes to action traits.
If you’re a bard Casting a Spell from the occult tradition, you
can usually play an instrument for spells requiring somatic or
material components, as long as it takes at least one of your
hands to do so. If you use an instrument, you don’t need a
spell component pouch or another hand free. You can usually also play an instrument for spells requiring verbal components, instead of speaking."

This is form the first errata I think I found the source of the confusion. Before the errata, you had to have it out beforehand but know you don't need too. This change of removed the " Unlike the normal rules for a focus component, you can’t retrieve or stow the
instrument when making this substitution." So the confusion came from a rule that was changed or an error.


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The answer is easy his problem is based on the premise that you have to draw your instrument as a separate action but that is not the case. The problem is based on an action that is completely unnessary.
" A focus is an object that funnels the magical energy of the spell. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to either have a free hand to retrieve the focus listed in the spell or already be holding the focus in your hand. As part of Casting the Spell, you retrieve the focus (if necessary), manipulate it, and can stow it again if you so choose.

Foci tend to be expensive, and you need to acquire them in advance to Cast the Spell." Core Rulebook pg. 303


Visandus wrote:
Visandus wrote:
shroudb wrote:
how is retrieveing a drum from your hip faster than drawing a blade from its sheath?
You wouldn't "retrieve" it. You'd literally start hitting it in place as-is. The drum doesn't move.

Should probably add some context here, I suppose.

If you're playing a bard, the fact you can use an instrument in place of somatic and material components is really nice and wonderful for class flavour.

The "frustrating" part of it is that if you're e.g. ambushed and have no instrument in your hand, you have to spend an action to pull one out before you can cast somatic or material spells with it. This means you're better off just having a component pouch, because you can handle those unexpected situations at full efficiency without loss of actions.

The unfortunate situation right now is that if you want to be as flavorful as possible, you need to hedge against not having an instrument in hand.

It would have been nice if Summon Instrument was a free action to account for this, but that ship has sailed. It's not a big deal, but it would be nice to have reliable casting through instruments without explicitly carrying an instrument at all times. :)

Retrieving your focus your instrument is part of the spell unless you are using a divine or primal focus. You don't need to spend an action to cast a spell that you need your instrument for. So there is no issue here.


What diety are you worshiping and what kind of champion?


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Both barbarian and druids have anathemas but not edicts. So Clerics and Champions diety effects not only what they can't do but what they're supposed to be doing. Different diety have different edicts and anathemas and is a major influence on how that character acts more so than any other class because of edicts. Say I am a cleric of Shelyn will tell give you an idea of how my character will act but if I said I was a cleric of Asmodeus the expectation of what my character would do and act would be completely different. Saying I'm just a cleric would be leaving out the most vital information about my character.


I think it mostly the flavor of the class that the reason. A cleric is a mortal servant of a deity and a champion is well a champion of one. A big part of these two classes' identity is tied to the deity they serve. The thing they are expected to are tied to the diety. A cleric and champion are general at least in my mind serve or have some relation to the church of thier diety serves. Not all church has the same structure and organization. All in all, it most defining thing for the cleric and the second for the champion being there cause but only by a bit.

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