Monster Core Speculation: Who's In, Who's Out?

[lemeres]

The Raven Black wrote:

No more Worm that walks. Sad.

I still hope we can get a humanoid swarm ancestry some day.

I am sad about that. The Paizo version was a bit unique since they weren't necessarily a ritual someone had to plan for (although they could if they felt like it, if you are a weird druid).

Technically, a worm that walks could be a sorcerer that got shanked and left in a ditch. And it just so happened that they had enough will and power to say "No, I aint' going out like that". And you could easily play them as the kind of person that deserves to be shanked and left in a gutter.

Instead of just being a lich alternative, they could be a mirror opposite of the lich. They aren't undead, they are disgustingly, writhingly filled with life.

They aren't careful planners with a goal that plans contingencies- they are impulsive and willful. Their very existence is a miracle of their own will which protects them from any consequences they might suffer. Who needs caution and consideration? What is the worst that could happen? They could die? Been there, done that.

Basically, an accidental Worm that Walks seems like EXACTLY the kind of person that would summon an elder god without think of the consequences.

Edit- oh, saw the James Jacobs response. Cool that they are STILL immune to any consequences, even when facing the eldritch gods of "license holders" that wiping out entire civilizations right now. I'm sure we will never hear the end of them bragging about how they survived this.

[Perpdepog]

The Raven Black wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

I'll be a bit bummed if golems do end up going, but ah well. I was sort of hoping they would go the other route, lean more into the golem's mythical and religious roots. I was imagining a series of constructs animated through the power of divine words with different kinds of abilities, and maybe personalities if they weren't mindless, based on the specific words or phrases used in their construction and animation, with some sort of consequence or flaw that manifests itself if they are used improperly, or not given time to rest, or required to do something antithetical to their words, etc.

That would leave out creatures like Frankenstein's Monster that is also a big inspiration for PF/DnD's "golems".

Is that the case for anything other than Flesh Golems? I'm not seeing a lot of parallels otherwise.

There are several golems created from stitched parts of creatures or similar : Carrion Golem, Flesh Golem, Fossil Golem.

The Alchemical Golem incorporates a humanoid brain.

Also all golems are animated through infusion of elemental soul, or positive energy, which is reminiscent of the Monster being animated by lightning. AFAICT the legendary golem did not use this kind of animation process.

The Mithral Golem seems also based on yet another fictional creature. In this case, the T1000 Terminator.

That was my point. I'd liked to have seen golems be rethought and made differently, closer to some of the popular legends like the Golem of Prague, beings who are animated with the name of God or similar divinely-inspired words or texts. That would make some of our golems, like flesh golems and fossile golems, something else. They'd be pretty easy to explain as a different class of construct, one animated through the introduction of raw vitality into a shell of once-living matter as opposed to the combination of nonliving clay/stone/crystal/whatever and divine force that a golem might be.

[Laclale♪]

Perpdepog wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

*several quotes*

There are several golems created from stitched parts of creatures or similar : Carrion Golem, Flesh Golem, Fossil Golem.

The Alchemical Golem incorporates a humanoid brain.

Also all golems are animated through infusion of elemental soul, or positive energy, which is reminiscent of the Monster being animated by lightning. AFAICT the legendary golem did not use this kind of animation process.

The Mithral Golem seems also based on yet another fictional creature. In this case, the T1000 Terminator.

That was my point. I'd liked to have seen golems be rethought and made differently, closer to some of the popular legends like the Golem of Prague, beings who are animated with the name of God or similar divinely-inspired words or texts. That would make some of our golems, like flesh golems and fossile golems, something else. They'd be pretty easy to explain as a different class of construct, one animated through the introduction of raw vitality into a shell of once-living matter as opposed to the combination of nonliving clay/stone/crystal/whatever and divine force that a...

But in term of rename, I can only think of Dawnminator.

[Drakli]

We could just call the pathfinder golems something other than golem, since they're not like the actual golem myth. D&D just nicked the name. Maybe call them automatons, or constructs, or animates, or something else that doesn't imply a context that isn't there.

[Temperans]

What context that isn't there? Golem is ubiquitous in fantasy to a construct animated with magic. Just like a clockwork is a construct made of magic and gears. Just like an automaton is construct of magic and science. Just like a robot is a construct of science.

There are many series that use golems for artificial being made of magic and DnD does not own the rights to that idea. Nor do they own the rights to that word.

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Neither "clockwork" nor "automaton" maps to one particular ethnicity/religion, Temperans.

[MMCJawa]

Captain Morgan wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

I'll be a bit bummed if golems do end up going, but ah well. I was sort of hoping they would go the other route, lean more into the golem's mythical and religious roots. I was imagining a series of constructs animated through the power of divine words with different kinds of abilities, and maybe personalities if they weren't mindless, based on the specific words or phrases used in their construction and animation, with some sort of consequence or flaw that manifests itself if they are used improperly, or not given time to rest, or required to do something antithetical to their words, etc.

That would leave out creatures like Frankenstein's Monster that is also a big inspiration for PF/DnD's "golems".

Is that the case for anything other than Flesh Golems? I'm not seeing a lot of parallels otherwise.

You could still have something like a Frankenstein's monster, but you just couldn't have it be called flesh golem. Flesh Golem as a term that describes a frankensteinian creature is a DnD invention. Also some of the specific mechanics associated with that creature.

Going away from Flesh Golems would actually be useful, in the sense that you could rework the lore to create a monster that was maybe a bit more faithful to the original inspiration.

[Calliope5431]

I have absolutely no doubt golem-adjacent constructs are staying in the game (and I can tell, because brass bastions are a thing in Rage of Elements). They may go by the name of "bastion" and have a little more fluff than "large humanoid-shaped lump of [insert type of matter here]". Myself, I'd like to see their elemental origins played up a little more. The guessing game of "what damage types bounce off this thing" becomes much more doable if, like the Brass Bastion or Frankenstein's monster they have thematic weaknesses rather than just arbitrary ones. So I'm very happy to see Paizo leaning into that a bit more.

The name means practically nothing to me. No offense to people who really love the term, but I have negative nostalgia for it on account of the silliness of Immunity to Magic and its heir, Golem Antimagic. And if helps prevent Paizo from getting sued by seaside mages, then all the better.

[Jonathan Morgantini]

Ive removed a baiting post. If things keep going in this direction the post will be locked.

[Dancing Wind]

Temperans wrote:

DnD does not own the rights to that idea. Nor do they own the rights to that word.

Paizo is not using "own the rights" as the sole criterion for removing terminology.

As James Jacobs said in a different thread,

James Jacobs wrote:

Even though "infernal" is a real word, part of the remaster is distancing ourselves from OGL associations, and this is a prime example of that sort of thing.)

"distancing ourselves from OGL associations" is just as compelling.

[Calliope5431]

Dancing Wind wrote:

Temperans wrote:

DnD does not own the rights to that idea. Nor do they own the rights to that word.

Paizo is not using "own the rights" as the sole criterion for removing terminology.

As James Jacobs said in a different thread,

James Jacobs wrote:

Even though "infernal" is a real word, part of the remaster is distancing ourselves from OGL associations, and this is a prime example of that sort of thing.)

"distancing ourselves from OGL associations" is just as compelling.

Yup. I'm confident the Paizo legal + creative team have certain OGL criteria they use to judge these sorts of things.

Anyway, back to speculating!

Has anyone discussed Ankhravs (formerly known as ankhegs) yet? I feel like Bestiary 1 already made that change to make it more Golarion-esque, but is "burrowing insect monster that spits acid" generic enough that we think they'll make it to monster core?

[Laclale♪]

I saw cute one in Pikmin 4 through...

[Aenigma]

If chromatic dragons and metallic dragons will be removed entirely, does that mean lamias, lamia matriarchs, and lamia harridans will be gone too? I know lamia is mythological creatures just like chimeras or medusas, but they are not created by Paizo so I'm worried.
If lamias are gone from the Lost Omens setting entirely, there will be a serious plot hole in Rise of the Runelords adventure path, because Karzoug's return would not have been possible without his lamia minions (like Xanesha, Lucrecia, or Ceoptra).

[Captain Morgan]

To give a serious answer... Just because a creature is not going to show up post-remaster does not mean it is reconned out of existence. It just means it won't show up in future adventures. I think the only thing which we know is getting the hardcore erasure is the drow.

[The Raven Black]

Captain Morgan wrote:

To give a serious answer... Just because a creature is not going to show up post-remaster does not mean it is reconned out of existence. It just means it won't show up in future adventures. I think the only thing which we know is getting the hardcore erasure is the drow.

I'm all for Paizo taking mythological creatures which have seen a lot of use in DnD and recreate them more faithfully to the original myth. That would completely destabilize metagaming players and breath new air in old classics.

[Temperans]

The Raven Black wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

To give a serious answer... Just because a creature is not going to show up post-remaster does not mean it is reconned out of existence. It just means it won't show up in future adventures. I think the only thing which we know is getting the hardcore erasure is the drow.

I'm all for Paizo taking mythological creatures which have seen a lot of use in DnD and recreate them more faithfully to the original myth. That would completely destabilize metagaming players and breath new air in old classics.

These seems like the worse reason to change mechanics ever.

Not even live service games balance just for the sake of making people angry.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

The only creature we know for sure has officially stopped existing in the game is the drow. There was never a giant underground empire of dark skinned evil elves, it was all a fabrication to cover for what is really down there, an even more ancient empire of snake people. Also underground elves do exist, called the ayindilar (sp?) but they live in isolated pockets are are not evil.

[Mammoth Daddy]

I hope the dragons we already have will continue to appear in adventures.

Brine dragons for example are a favourite of fine and I’ve always wanted to do a campaign where Kelizandri or associated enemies are the campaign antagonists.

[Squiggit]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

The only creature we know for sure has officially stopped existing in the game is the drow. There was never a giant underground empire of dark skinned evil elves, it was all a fabrication to cover for tmwhatvis really down there, an even more ancient empire of snake people. Also underground elves do exist, called the ayindilar (sp?) but they live in isolated pockets are are not evil.

One interesting bit of fallout for this is how it changes the lore of a specific character.

Instead of being an unsung hero revealing the secret truth of the darklands she's become a knowing purveyor of racist conspiracy theories.

A pretty radical heel turn.

[Captain Morgan]

Mammoth Daddy wrote:

I hope the dragons we already have will continue to appear in adventures.

Brine dragons for example are a favourite of fine and I’ve always wanted to do a campaign where Kelizandri or associated enemies are the campaign antagonists.

Pretty sure brine dragons specifically are a Paizo original so they are fair game. Not sure what to expect removed beyond chromatic and metallic.

[Temperans]

Squiggit wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

The only creature we know for sure has officially stopped existing in the game is the drow. There was never a giant underground empire of dark skinned evil elves, it was all a fabrication to cover for tmwhatvis really down there, an even more ancient empire of snake people. Also underground elves do exist, called the ayindilar (sp?) but they live in isolated pockets are are not evil.

One interesting bit of fallout for this is how it changes the lore of a specific character.

Instead of being an unsung hero revealing the secret truth of the darklands she's become a knowing purveyor of racist conspiracy theories.

A pretty radical heel turn.

Also all the drow secondary characters are gone. Any PC that was a drow is gone. Fleshwarps that were created by drow are no longer created by drow. Driders are gone necause they were drow, and if they remain it will be extremely weird to try and justify them. Drow combat styles and items are gone or suddenly "they were made by someone else". Etc.

Drow had a lot of reach in the world of Golarion that was subtle so a lot of people kind of ignored and is now gone.

[Unicore]

Even chromatic and metallic dragons are not being removed, they are just not getting brought back quickly. But the one present in lore are still there. I think the word on them is, “ we have a bunch of other dragons to do first and then we’ll revisit other classic dragon types.

[Unicore]

Maybe they aren’t Drow anymore, but Abomination Vaults isn’t getting retconned. Their fighting styles and all those characters are still present in any game of pathfinder 2e that you want them to be in. There won’t be new content for them and many GMs will just call them elves, but it doesn’t change anything for anyone that doesn’t want it to change.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Whoops all ayindilar by accident. What you thought they were drow? Guess that's what happens when you believe the Pathfinder society about evil underground empires.

[The Raven Black]

Temperans wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

The only creature we know for sure has officially stopped existing in the game is the drow. There was never a giant underground empire of dark skinned evil elves, it was all a fabrication to cover for tmwhatvis really down there, an even more ancient empire of snake people. Also underground elves do exist, called the ayindilar (sp?) but they live in isolated pockets are are not evil.

One interesting bit of fallout for this is how it changes the lore of a specific character.

Instead of being an unsung hero revealing the secret truth of the darklands she's become a knowing purveyor of racist conspiracy theories.

A pretty radical heel turn.

Also all the drow secondary characters are gone. Any PC that was a drow is gone. Fleshwarps that were created by drow are no longer created by drow. Driders are gone necause they were drow, and if they remain it will be extremely weird to try and justify them. Drow combat styles and items are gone or suddenly "they were made by someone else". Etc.

Drow had a lot of reach in the world of Golarion that was subtle so a lot of people kind of ignored and is now gone.

No PC could be a drow, since there was no drow ancestry in PF2.

[Temperans]

The Raven Black wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

The only creature we know for sure has officially stopped existing in the game is the drow. There was never a giant underground empire of dark skinned evil elves, it was all a fabrication to cover for tmwhatvis really down there, an even more ancient empire of snake people. Also underground elves do exist, called the ayindilar (sp?) but they live in isolated pockets are are not evil.

One interesting bit of fallout for this is how it changes the lore of a specific character.

Instead of being an unsung hero revealing the secret truth of the darklands she's become a knowing purveyor of racist conspiracy theories.

A pretty radical heel turn.

Also all the drow secondary characters are gone. Any PC that was a drow is gone. Fleshwarps that were created by drow are no longer created by drow. Driders are gone necause they were drow, and if they remain it will be extremely weird to try and justify them. Drow combat styles and items are gone or suddenly "they were made by someone else". Etc.

Drow had a lot of reach in the world of Golarion that was subtle so a lot of people kind of ignored and is now gone.

No PC could be a drow, since there was no drow ancestry in PF2.

PCs could be drow in the setting of Golarion.

They could not be so in the ruleset of PF2.

[Rysky]

PCs could be Drow in P1, and can still be.

PCs could never be Drow in P2.

[Captain Morgan]

Feels worth noting that PCs only really exist at the table they are created, and individual tables are free to ignore official canon as they see fit. If I have a made a drown PC once they can continue to exist in the narrative of my own table, but they never existed in the first place at Rysky's.

[PossibleCabbage]

Rysky wrote:

PCs could be Drow in P1, and can still be.

PCs could never be Drow in P2.

I mean, PCs can be Drow in PF2. You just need to use a non-Paizo source for the ancestry rules (which you still can do).

[Cori Marie]

Paizo ain't coming to your house and making you change your table's lore. You want to keep drow, you can. You even have 2E rules for what they look like statblock wise.

[belgrath9344]

I hope devils & demons stay as they are

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

belgrath9344 wrote:

I hope devils & demons stay as they are

They won't, because many of them were made up by TSR/WotC.

[Rysky]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

belgrath9344 wrote:

I hope devils & demons stay as they are

They won't, because many of them were made up by TSR/WotC.

Our Pit Friends :(

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This almost makes me wonder if the folks speculating that Asmodeus is the deity getting the axe in the future are on to something: His death and the subsequent chaos in Hell it could cause would be the perfect catalyst for a reinvention of Hell and all the creatures in it that makes it much more distinct to Pathfinder.

[Ed Reppert]

Asmodeus will be murdered by the ghost of Aroden. :-)

[Calliope5431]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

This almost makes me wonder if the folks speculating that Asmodeus is the deity getting the axe in the future are on to something: His death and the subsequent chaos in Hell it could cause would be the perfect catalyst for a reinvention of Hell and all the creatures in it that makes it much more distinct to Pathfinder.

Eh, they'd still have to redo demons and some celestials ("ghaele" is so deeply OGL). I assume that the OGL devils, demons, and so on will just receive a "backseat" like the tarrasque did. Still sort of exists but no one ever talks about it again.

[Benjamin Tait]

We know Imps have been reworked (now they're like outer sphere scamps from what I recall), they'll probably rework what they can and replace what they can't.

[Mammoth Daddy]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

This almost makes me wonder if the folks speculating that Asmodeus is the deity getting the axe in the future are on to something: His death and the subsequent chaos in Hell it could cause would be the perfect catalyst for a reinvention of Hell and all the creatures in it that makes it much more distinct to Pathfinder.

By that logic, if Pharasma dies they could hand-wave anything.

Actually…not a bad idea.

[Brinebeast]

To help everyone with identifying what creatures are coming from the D&D OGL/SRD I compiled the complete list below. Note that Paizo has not used every creature that was made available in the D&D OGL/SRD, so there are creatures listed that never appeared in a Paizo product.

Additionally, I identified as many creatures as I could that Paizo has used because they were made available in the Tome of Horrors. Note that if the creature is on the tome of horrors list Paizo used that creature in their products. As far as I can tell, looking at the Tome of Horrors Complete, the book includes both D&D original monsters published by a specific agreement, and monsters originally published in a Tome of Horrors volume. Also, note that not all Tome of Horrors Complete creatures are listed, but only those that are explicitly used at least once in a Paizo Pathfinder product.

Not listed are the handful of OGL creatures that Paizo has used coming from other OGL sources such as the Book of Fiends, Advanced Bestiary, etc. Note that all versions of creatures coming from an OGL source will become unavailable to Paizo once they begin publishing under the ORC. But only the OGL versions will be unavailable, so any creature coming from mythology, folklore, public domain, or from a common concept will still be available but will need new stats, new presentation, new description, new lore, or a combination thereof. Also, any creature that is a real world creature will be available to Paizo. Any creature that is completely original to D&D, Tome of Horrors, or other books that are published under the OGL will no longer be available to Paizo, unless those creatures are republished under the ORC.

The big question then: What creatures are completely original to D&D or Tome of Horrors and therefore not coming from mythology, folklore, public domain, from a common concept, or from the real world? Ideally, knowing this will help to inform us who is in, who is out, and who may yet return.

Exploring Common Concept: This one is a little tricky, but worth discussing a little more deeply. A good example of this is “burrowing, acid spitting, insect”. This is a fairly common concept in the fantasy and science fiction genres. So looking at Ankheg and Ankhrav, both are “burrowing, acid spitting, insects” but Ankheg is a word original to D&D and is subject to copyright even though it was available for use in gaming products under the OGL. Ankhrav is a word that is a Paizo original creation that they use to refer to their “burrowing, acid spitting, insects.” So, while Ankhegs are definitely out, there is a good chance we will see Ankhravs. However, Ankhravs may get some stat adjustments to ensure they deviate away from Ankhegs. Also worth noting is that Paizo has already developed the lore for the Ankhravs in Pathfinder, ensuring that they are distinct and unique from the D&D Ankheg lore.

A: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Aboleth Family (Aboleth, Aboleth Mage, Aboleth Psionic)
Abomination Family (Anaxim, Atropal, Chichimec, Dream Larva, Hecatoncheires, Infernal, Phaethon, Phane, Xixecal)
Achaierai
Agathion Family (Avoral, Leonal)
Allip
Angel Family (Astral Deva, Planetar, Solar)
Animated Object
Ankheg
Aranea
Archon Family (Lantern, Hound, Hound Archon Hero, Trumpet)
Arrowhawk
Assassin Vine
Astral Construct
Athach
Azata Family (Bralani, Ghaele, Lillend)
Azer

B: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Barghest Family (Barghest, Greater Barghest)
Basilisk Family (Basilisk, Abyssal Greater Basilisk)
Behemoth Family (Behemoth Eagle, Behemoth Gorilla)
Behir
Belker
Blink Dog
Blue
Bodak
Brachyurus
Brain Mole
Bugbear
Bulette

C: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Caller In Darkness
Celestial Creature
Centaur
Cerebrilith
Chaos Beast
Chimera
Choker
Chuul
Cloaker
Cockatrice
Colossus Family (Stone Colossus, Flesh Colossus, Iron Colossus)
Couatl Family (Couatl, Couatl Psionic)
Crysmal

D: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Darkmantle
Delver
Demilich
Demon Family (Babau, Balor, Bebilith, Dretch, Glabrezu, Hezrou, Marilith, Nalfeshnee, Quasit, Retriever, Succubus, Vrock)
Derro
Destrachan
Devil Family (Barbed Devil (Hamatula), Bearded Devil (Barbazu), Bone Devil (Osyluth), Chain Devil (Kyton), Erinyes, Hellcat (Bezekira), Horned Devil (Cornugon), Ice Devil (Gelugon), Imp, Lemure, Pit Fiend)
Devourer
Digester
Doppelganger
Dragon, Advanced (Template)
Dragon, Epic Family (Force Dragon, Prismatic Dragon)
Dragon, True - Chromatic Dragon Family (Black Dragon, Blue Dragon, Green Dragon, Red Dragon, White Dragon)
Dragon, True - Metallic Dragon Family (Brass Dragon, Bronze Dragon, Copper Dragon, Gold Dragon, Silver Dragon)
Dragon Turtle
Dragonne
Drider
Dromite
Dryad
Dwarf Family (Dwarf, Deep Dwarf, Mountain Dwarf, Duergar, Psionic Duergar)

E: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Eagle, Giant
Elan
Elemental Family (Air Elemental, Earth Elemental, Fire Elemental, Water Elemental)
Elemental, Primal Family (Primal Air Elemental, Primal Earth Elemental, Primal Fire Elemental, Primal Water Elemental)
Elf Family (Elf, Half-Elf, Aquatic Elf, Gray Elf, Wild Elf, Wood Elf, Drow)
Ethereal Filcher
Ethereal Marauder
Ettercap
Ettin

F: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Fiendish Creature
Flux Slime
Folugub
Formian Family (Worker, Warrior, Taskmaster, Myrmarch, Queen)
Frost Worm
Fungus Family (Shrieker, Violet Fungus)

G: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Gargoyle Family (Gargoyle, Kapoacinth)
Genie Family (Djinni, Noble Djinn, Efreeti, Janni)
Genius Loci
Ghost
Ghoul Family (Ghoul, Lacedon, Ghast)
Giant Family (Cloud Giant, Fire Giant, Frost Giant, Frost Giant Jarl, Hill Giant, Stone Giant, Stone Giant Elders, Storm Giant)
Gibbering Mouther
Gibbering Orb
Girallon
Gloom
Gnoll
Gnome Family (Gnome, Svirfneblin, Forest Gnome)
Goblin
Golem Family (Adamantine Golem, Clay Golem, Flesh Golem, Iron Golem, Mithral Golem, Stone Golem, Greater Stone Golem)
Gorgon
Gray Glutton
Gray Render
Grick
Griffon
Grimlock

H: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Hag Family (Annis Hag, Green Hag, Night Hag, Sea Hag)
Hagunemnon, Protean
Half-Celestial
Half-Dragon
Half-Fiend
Half-Giant
Halfling Family (Halfling, Tallfellow, Deep Halfling)
Harpy Family (Harpy, Harpy Archer)
Hell Hound Family (Hell Hound, Nessian Warhound)
Hippogriff
Hoary Hunter
Hoary Steed
Hobgoblin
Homunculus
Howler
Hunefer
Hydra Family (Hydra, Pyrohydra, Cryohydra)

I: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Inevitable Family (Kolyarut, Marut, Zelekhut)
Intellect Devourer
Invisible Stalker

K: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Kobold
Kraken
Krenshar

L: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Lamia
Lammasu Family (Lammasu, Golden Protector)
leShay
Lich
Living Vault
Lizardfolk
Locathah
Lycanthrope Family (Werebear, Wereboar, Hill Giant Dire Wereboar, Wererat, Weretiger, Werewolf, Werewolf Lord)

M: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Maenad
Magmin
Manticore
Medusa
Mephit Family (Air Mephit, Dust Mephit, Earth Mephit, Fire Mephit, Ice Mephit, Magma Mephit, Ooze Mephit, Salt Mephit, Steam Mephit, Water Mephit)
Mercane
Merfolk
Mimic
Minotaur
Mohrg
Mummy Family (Mummy, Mummy Lord)
Mu Spore

N: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Naga Family (Dark Naga, Guardian Naga, Ha-Naga, Spirit Naga, Water Naga)
Neh-Thalggu Family (Neh-Thalggu, Brain Collector)
Neothelid
Nightmare Family (Nightmare, Cauchemar)
Nightshade Family (Nightcrawler, Nightwalker, Nightwing)
Nymph

O: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Ogre Family (Ogre, Ogre Barbarian, Merrow, Ogre Mage)
Ooze Family (Black Pudding, Elder Black Pudding, Gelatinous Cube, Gray Ooze, Ochre Jelly)
Orc Family (Orc, Half-Orcs)
Otyugh
Owl, Giant
Owlbear

P: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Paragon Creature
Pegasus
Phantom Fungus
Phase Spider
Phasm
Phrenic Creature
Phthisic
Planetouched Family (Aasimar, Tiefling)
Prismasaurus
Pseudodragon
Pseudonatural Creature (Pseudonatural Troll)
Psicrystal
Psion-Killer
Puppeteer Family (Puppeteer, Flesh Harrower)
Purple Worm

R: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Rakshasa
Rast
Ravid
Razor Boar
Remorhaz
Roc
Roper
Ruin Swarm
Rust Monster

S: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Sahuagin Family (Sahuagin, Sahuagin Mutants, Malenti)
Salamander
Satyr
Scorpionfolk
Sea Cat
[bShadow Family[/b] (Shadow, Greater Shadow)
Shadow Mastiff
Shadow Of The Void
Shambling Mound
Shape Of Fire
Shield Guardian
Shocker Lizard
Sirrush Family (Sirrush, Three-Headed Sirrush)
Skeleton
Skum
Spectre
Sphinx Family (Androsphinx, Criosphinx, Gynosphinx, Hieracosphinx)
Spider Eater
Sprite Family (Grig, Nixie, Pixie)
Stirge

T: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Tarrasque
Tayellah
Temporal Filcher
Tendriculos
Thoqqua
Thorciasid
Thought Eater
Thought Slayer
Titan Family (Titan, Titan Elder)
Tojanida
Treant Family (Treant, Treant Elder)
Triton
Troglodyte
Troll Family (Troll, Scrag, Troll Hunter)

U: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Udoroot
Umbral Blot (aka Blackball)
Unbodied
Unicorn Family (Unicorn, Celestial Charger)
Uvuudaum

V: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Vampire Family (Vampire, Vampire Spawn)
Vargouille
Vermiurge

W: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Wight Family (Wight, Lavawight, Winterwight)
Will-O’-Wisp
Worg Family (Worg, Winter Wolf)
Worm That Walks
Wraith Family (Wraith, Dread Wraith)
Wyvern

X: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Xeph
Xill
Xorn

Y: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Yeth Hound
Yrthak

Z: Monsters (D&D OGL/SRD):

Zombie

Animals (D&D OGL/SRD):

Legendary Animal
Legendary Bear
Legendary Tiger
Dinosaur
Deinonychus
Elasmosaurus
Megaraptor
Triceratops
Tyrannosaurus
Dire Animal
Dire Ape
Dire Badger
Dire Bat
Dire Bear
Dire Boar
Dire Lion
Dire Rat
Dire Shark
Dire Tiger
Dire Weasel
Dire Wolf
Dire Wolverine
Ape
Baboon
Badger
Bat
Bear, Black
Bear, Brown
Bear, Polar
Bison
Boar
Camel
Cat
Cheetah
Crocodile
Crocodile, Giant
Dog
Dog, Riding
Donkey
Eagle
Elephant
Hawk
Horse
Horse, Heavy
Horse, Light
Warhorse, Heavy
Warhorse, Light
Hyena
Leopard
Lion
Lizard
Lizard, Monitor
Manta Ray
Monkey
Mule
Octopus
Octopus, Giant
Owl
Pony
Pony, War
Porpoise
Rat
Raven
Rhinoceros
Shark
Snake
Constrictor Snake
Viper Snake
Squid
Squid, Giant
Tiger
Toad
Weasel
Whale
Baleen Whale
Cachalot Whale
Orca
Wolf
Wolverine

Vermin (D&D OGL/SRD):

Devastation Vermin
Devastation Centipede
Devastation Spider
Devastation Scorpion
Devastation Beetle
Giant Ant
Giant Bee
Giant Bombardier Beetle
Giant Fire Beetle
Giant Stag Beetle
Giant Praying Mantis
Giant Wasp
Monstrous Centipede
Monstrous Scorpion
Monstrous Spider
Swarm
Bat Swarm
Centipede Swarm
Hellwasp Swarm
Locust Swarm
Rat Swarm
Spider Swarm

A: Monsters (Tome of Horrors OGL):

Abyssal Harvester
Abyssal Larva
Adamantine Wasp Swarm
Adherer
Aerial Servant
Alu-Demon
Amphisbaena
Angel (Monadic Deva, Movanic Deva)
Animal Lord
Ant Lion
Ascomid
Atomie
Aurumvorax
Axe Beak

B: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Baccae
Balban
Baobhan Sith
Baphomet
Basidirond
Beetle (Slicer Beetle)
Blindheim
Bloody Bones
Boalisk
Brass Man
Brine Zombie
Brownie
Brykolakas
Bunyip

C: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Carbuncle
Carrion Moth
Caryatid Column
Cave Cricket
Cave Fisher
Cave Moray
Chillblight
Cinder Ghoul
Coffer Corpse
Corpse Orgy
Corpsespinner
Corpsespun
Crab, Monstrous
Crucifiction Spirit
Crypt Thing
Crystal Ooze
Crystallis

D: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Daemon (Charonadaemon, Derghodaemon, Guardian Daemon aka Ceustodaemon, Hydrodaemon, The Oinodaemon, Piscodaemon)
Dagon
Dark Folk (Dark Creeper, Dark Stalker)
Darnoc
Death Dog
Death Worm
Debased Fey
Decapus
Demodand (Shaggy, Slimy, Tarry)
Demon (Gharros, Nabasu, Shadow Demon)
Demonic Knight
Dire Corby
Disenchanter
Doombat
Dracolisk
Dragon, Faerie
Dragon Horse
Dragonnel
Dream Spectre
Dust Digger

E: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Entropic Ooze (Dark Matter)
Executioner’s Hood
Eye of the Deep

F: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Fire-Infused
Fire Nymph
Fire Snake
Flail Snail
Flayed Angel
Flayer Devil
Flumph
Foo Creature
Froghemoth
Forlarren

G: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Gargoyle, Four-Armed
Ghoul-Stirge
Giant (Bronze Giant, Wood Giant)
Giant Dragonfly
Giant Leech
Giant Slug
Glacial Ooze
Gloomwing
Gohl
Golem (Furnace Golem, Ice Golem, Mummy Golem, Rope Golem, Stone Guardian, Tallow Golem, Witch-Doll, Wood Golem)
Gray Nisp
Grimstalker
Grippli
Gryph

H: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Hangman Tree
Hippocampus
Hippopotamus
Hoar Spirit
Huecuva
Hyaenodon

I: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Iron Cobra

J: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Jackalwere
Jubilex

K: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Kamadan
Kech
Kelpie (Seaweed Kelpie)
Korred
Kostchtchie

L: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Lantern Goat
Leprechaun
Lich Shade
Lightning Treant
Lurker Above

M: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Magma Ooze
Marid
Mercury Ooze
Mihstu
Mite
Mobat
Mongrelman
Moon Dog
Muckdweller
Mudman
Mummy of the Deep
Mustard Jelly

N: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Necrophidius
Negative Energy Elemental
Nereid
Nupperibo, Devil

O: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Olive Slime
Orcus

P: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Pazuzu
Pech
Phantasm
Phycomid
Piercer
Piranha Swarm
Pit Hag
Poltergeist
Pyrolisk

Q: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Quickling
Quickwood

R: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Raven Swarm
Rawbones
Rot Grubs
Russet Mold

S: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Sand Kraken
Sandling
Sandman
Scarecrow
Scythe Tree
Sea Anemone
Shadow, Lesser
Shadow Rat
Shadow Rat, Dire
Shadow Rat Swarm
Shedu
Skaveling
Skeleton Warrior
Skulk
Skull Spider
Slime Crawler
Slime Mold
Slithering Tracker
Snapping Turtle, Giant
Solifugid
Soul Eater
Spriggan
Stegocentipede
Stunjelly

T: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Temporal Crawler
Tenebrous Creature
Tenebrous Worm
Tentamort
Thessalhydra
Thorny
Tick, Giant
Time Flayer
Tombstone Fairy
Trapper
Troll (Ice Troll, Rock Troll, Two-Headed)
Twilight Mushrooms

U: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Undead Lord

V: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Vegepygmy
Vilstrak

W: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Warden Jack Swarm
White Pudding
Willow Dusk
Witch Tree
Wolf, Ghoul
Wolf, Ghoul Dire
Wolf-In-Sheep’s-Clothing

Y: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Yellow Musk Creeper
Yellow Musk Zombie
Yeti

Z: Monsters (Tome of Horrors):

Zombie, Juju

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Titanic effort there Brinebeast, wow.

[Brinebeast]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Titanic effort there Brinebeast, wow.

Thanks! I may have gone a bit to far down the rabbit hole, but I enjoyed doing the research.

[CorvusMask]

Brinebeast wrote:

To help everyone with identifying what creatures are coming from the D&D OGL/SRD I compiled the complete list below. Note that Paizo has not used every creature that was made available in the D&D OGL/SRD, so there are creatures listed that never appeared in a Paizo product.

Additionally, I identified as many creatures as I could that Paizo has used because they were made available in the Tome of Horrors. Note that if the creature is on the tome of horrors list Paizo used that creature in their products. As far as I can tell, looking at the Tome of Horrors Complete, the book includes both D&D original monsters published by a specific agreement, and monsters originally published in a Tome of Horrors volume. Also, note that not all Tome of Horrors Complete creatures are listed, but only those that are explicitly used at least once in a Paizo Pathfinder product.

Not listed are the handful of OGL creatures that Paizo has used coming from other OGL sources such as the Book of Fiends, Advanced Bestiary, etc. Note that all versions of creatures coming from an OGL source will become unavailable to Paizo once they begin publishing under the ORC. But only the OGL versions will be unavailable, so any creature coming from mythology, folklore, public domain, or from a common concept will still be available but will need new stats, new presentation, new description, new lore, or a combination thereof. Also, any creature that is a real world creature will be available to Paizo. Any creature that is completely original to D&D, Tome of Horrors, or other books that are published under the OGL will no longer be available to Paizo, unless those creatures are republished under the ORC.

The big question then: What creatures are completely original to D&D or Tome of Horrors and therefore not coming from mythology, folklore, public domain, from a common concept, or from the real world? Ideally, knowing this will help to inform us who is in, who is out, and who may yet return.

Exploring Common...

I find it funny how some of the ones in the list technically exist in pathfinder as well, but due to them being mythological the pathfinder versions are completely different and not from D&D :'D like 1e behemoths

also yeah it really does demonstrate that vast majority of pathfinder inevitables were original, so I'm again sad for their loss...

[Kobold Catgirl]

I wonder if giants are going to go sort of the way of hags--connected more to their myth and fairy tale roots. Certainly I would be surprised if hill giants stick around in their current state, considering they've always basically just been "dire ogres". I feel like, on a weirder note, frost giants and titans might be merged--after all, mythological frost giants are defined by being the counter to the gods, making them so similar to titans you almost might as well just combine them to differentiate your take more from D&D's.

I think it'd be cool if giants were moved more towards fey, as a mix of big brutes, goose-owning cloud aristocrats, and tricksters and shapeshifters. I have no idea, though! They'll want to stay Golarion-accurate, and giants are kind of a big deal in Rise of the Runelords.

[belgrath9344]

does that mean daemons have a high chance of being cut? because the daemons & the 4 horsemen that rule them are my favorite monsters in pathfinder

[James Jacobs]

belgrath9344 wrote:

does that mean daemons have a high chance of being cut? because the daemons & the 4 horsemen that rule them are my favorite monsters in pathfinder

It does not mean that.

[Eldritch Yodel]

Daemons are very uniquely Pathfinder. Outside of sharing a name they have pretty much nothing in common with their DnD counterparts (and even then DnD usually calls then yugoloths, daemons is just their genetic alt. name). They've very much in the clear.

[James Jacobs]

Eldritch Yodel wrote:

Daemons are very uniquely Pathfinder. Outside of sharing a name they have pretty much nothing in common with their DnD counterparts (and even then DnD usually calls then yugoloths, daemons is just their genetic alt. name). They've very much in the clear.

To be more exact, what we've done with daemons as neutral evil fiends who have a role aligned with nihilsm and the apocalypse is very Pathfinder... but the idea of daemons being neutral evil fiends in the first place first showed up in AD&D's Monster Manual 2 back in the early 80s. D&D didn't start calling them yugoloths until the planescape days, after daemons and other fiends spent several years off camera in an attempt to appease mass market claims of Satanism.

[Benjamin Tait]

Kinda relieved to see that Agathion are going to be fine, they're distinct enough from Guardinals and apparently Agathions weren't in D&D, Agathnions were (called Agathion in 1e D&D but even then it was never referring to Guardinals). So just leaving the Azatas without the OGL ones maybe? Now Archon may be the biggest issue. Angels I'm thinking would require some name tweaking and removing any old mechanics that are holdovers from their OGL versions?

I'm both nervous and excited about it all to be honest.