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I'm *shocked* these still don't exist! I had assumed this was something that would've snuck into Treasure Vault, so I didn't bother checking before now. Why the bias against hacking and thwacking?
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yeah, a hatchet is not very complex to use
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Throwing a knife is considered simpler than swinging a hatchet.
Makes 0 sense but seems to be intentional.
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Throwing a knife is considered simpler than swinging a hatchet.
Makes 0 sense but seems to be intentional.
A wizard can pick up a gnarled stick and use it as a club just fine, but somehow can't use a light mace which is just a club shaped to be easier to use.
The weapon rules are weird.
Yeah I don't think we are going to get axes, flails, or swords as simple weapons for legacy reasons. I'm not even sure if there are simple hammers.
Quick search: I see Poi as a flail and Wheel Blades as a sword.
I don't see any simple hammers or axes.
I also think that Captain Morgan has the right of it in general, even with a couple of strange exceptions.
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The whole origin of simple weapons was that clerics couldn't use blades. So anything sharp and bigger than a dagger is fighting a lot of interia.
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I was thinking about this for a little, and what about something like a fire or rescue-type axe? Something along the lines of,
Fire Axe
Price 5sp; Damage 1d8 S; Bulk 1
Hands 2
Category Simple
Traits Razing
This axe sports a duller, thicker blade. While it is primarily used to break down doors or walls in case of an emergency, it works equally well to smash fortifications or batter down shields.
Carpenter’s Axe Price 1gp; Damage 1d4 S; Bulk L
Hands 1Category Simple
Traits Finesse, Versatile B
A craftsman tool which is designed for fine woodworking and isn’t ideal for general felling or chopping jobs. This is a small axe, also sometimes known as a carpenter’s hatchet, though it is slightly bigger than a standard hatchet. Traditionally, this type of axe would have a very straight-edged sharp blade with a flat butt, which would double up as a hammer. Carpenter’s axes also have the addition of a groove in them, which can be used to remove nails from wood. They also typically have a notch on the handle, which allows for a better grip so the user can have more precise control.
Special: Also acts as a tool for woodworking.
Roofing Axe
Price 5sp; Damage 1d6 S; Bulk L
Hands 1
Category Simple
Traits Disarm, Versatile B
A roofing axe, also known as a roofing hatchet, is a high-quality craftsman’s tool which is used in roofing. A roofing axe has multiple purposes, which is great if you’re sat on top of a roof and don’t want to be carrying around a bunch of different tools. The roofing axe has two heads on either side of the handle. One head is a sharp blade that is used for cutting roof shingles. The other head is a hammer, which is for pounding in roofing nails when fixing shingles to the roof. Roofing axes also have an additional feature, in the form of a notch on the sharp blade side that can be used by hooking it over the front face of the shingle below the one you are setting, giving you evenly placed rows of shingle. This notch is also handy in catching a foe's weapon.
Special: Also acts as a tool for roofing.
PS: I think the stats you have for the Fire Axe would also work for a Felling Axe and a Splitting Maul.
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Keep on nerfing the Weapon Improviser by taking non-weapons and weaponizing them.
*Runs to corner to sulk over the ruination of their fighter/weapon improviser who can no longer use half their abilities with their frying pan.*
It is silly there is an absence of simple axes as they are generally considered the most simple cutting weapon to use.
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Keep on nerfing the Weapon Improviser by taking non-weapons and weaponizing them.
*Runs to corner to sulk over the ruination of their fighter/weapon improviser who can no longer use half their abilities with their frying pan.*
They can't use a HALFLING frying pan: no one said anything about a normal one. ;
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I'm guessing the issue is "using an axe as a weapon of war is significantly more difficult than using it to chop wood." Same reason a machete is a martial weapon- using it to cut brush is very simple, but you don't have to worry about indexing or grip so much when you're doing simple labor with it. Things like machetes and axes are less agile than things like swords so you have to be more careful when fighting with them.
Like the beard on the viking axe was (probably) for catching an opponent's weapon and disarming them in concert with your shield as a fulcrum.
Simple weapons are more things where the entire premise and all use casesof the weapon is simply stated like "keep sharp end pointed at danger" or "here's how you load a crossbow, here's the trigger."
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I'm guessing the issue is "using an axe as a weapon of war is significantly more difficult than using it to chop wood."
More difficult than doing that with a poi? Or weaponizing wheelchair wheels?
I don't think there's really going to be a diegetic answer here.
I think both chopping wood and cutting cane involve plenty of edge alignment.
Throwing a hatchet effectively is definitely easier than throwing a dagger effectively.
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Quick search: I see Poi as a flail and Wheel Blades as a sword.
I don't see any simple hammers or axes.
I also think that Captain Morgan has the right of it in general, even with a couple of strange exceptions.
Wait.
Poi is simple.
Poi.
That... no. No it is not.
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Poi being a simple weapon makes absolutely no freakin' sense.
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I think both chopping wood and cutting cane involve plenty of edge alignment.
Throwing a hatchet effectively is definitely easier than throwing a dagger effectively.
I agree Throwing a hatchet is easier than throwing a dagger. I once took first place in a real hatchet contest, I had never thrown a hatchet before. It sometimes matters more if it's well-balanced than skill for some weapons.
In general simple/martial/advanced is a system that serves too many masters imo.
It wants to both invoke some sense of realism but also a game balance tiering system at the same time.
The issue though is that "is easy to use" doesn’t have a negative causation with "how effective it is".
Given that Poi is a Hawaiian dish made from the fermented root of the taro which has been baked and pounded to a paste, successfully using it as a weapon should be very advanced.
It is a weight on a string, used as a training weapon or as part of a dance routine. Originally Maori. A related culture.
I mean, in English "pie" is a foodstuff and in Spanish "pie" is a foot, and throwing a pie at someone and kicking them are going to be received differently.
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Throwing a knife is considered simpler than swinging a hatchet.
Makes 0 sense but seems to be intentional.A wizard can pick up a gnarled stick and use it as a club just fine, but somehow can't use a light mace which is just a club shaped to be easier to use.
The weapon rules are weird.
And wizards can use crossbows, not sure where that came from, but assume it's from trying to make wizards different then sorcerers.
I dream of having a TTRPG that is able to balance game mechanics and a more accurate weapons and armor system or even just descriptions. Dare I say velvet brigandine not studded leather! I personally think black velvet brigandine would go rather well with my feathers.
Any hope of this in PF2R?
Hmmm I doubt it, but it would be nice I think.
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As far as fire and rescue axes, those are probably considered tools and thus improvised when used in battle, like a carpenter's hammer. Edge alignment is important, but your target is usually not actively dodging and/or stabbing you while you swing at it.
Honestly, I hate the greatclub. It has no advantage over anything in the game. Mauls do more damage, war flails do more tricks. There's no reason it can't be the big stick of the Simple group: remove any properties and have it as an option for a Simple weapon user who just wants to hit thing hard. I've seen that done in another gaming system ...
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Any hope of this in PF2R?
I think axes got cut.
As far as fire and rescue axes, those are probably considered tools and thus improvised when used in battle, like a carpenter's hammer. Edge alignment is important, but your target is usually not actively dodging and/or stabbing you while you swing at it.
Honestly, I hate the greatclub. It has no advantage over anything in the game. Mauls do more damage, war flails do more tricks. There's no reason it can't be the big stick of the Simple group: remove any properties and have it as an option for a Simple weapon user who just wants to hit thing hard. I've seen that done in another gaming system ...
Agreed, would be nice if we got more options/parity with existing simple weapons. It's only a slightly better case than the classes with static weapon proficiencies (like Rogue/Wizard/Druid/Bard), because a lot of options only get published for Martial proficiencies. Where's some other simple weapons of all kinds of varieties at? Just because an Axe is harder to make doesn't mean it's harder to wield.
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What would edge alignment be? All evil alignments or just CN?
IMO if we base the simple, martial and advanced into weapon training proficiency aspect many things that we inherited from PF1 and D&D could be different.
Many simple weapons that requires a martial training to be efficiently used could up to martial category: Katars, Morningstars, Throwing Knifes, Crossbows, Reload 1+ firearms.
While many martial weapons specially those that also are tools or are tool based could down to simple: Many work axes like Adze, Bayonets, Bo Staff, Gill Hook, Greatclub, Greatpick, Hand Adze, Kama, Light Pick, Machete, Panabas, Polytool, Rungu, Scythe, Alchemical Bombs, Shortbows, Harpoon, Javelins, maybe the addition of work axes and hammers to simple too.
While some complex weapons that requires much training like combination weapons IMO deserver to up do advanced.
Many simple weapons that requires a martial training to be efficiently used could up to martial category: Katars, Morningstars, Throwing Knifes, Crossbows, Reload 1+ firearms.
I might have misunderstood your point. There are strong arguments to be made for Simple crossbows and Martial bows. If weapon proficiencies represent the difficulty of being trained to fight with a particular weapon then things are as they should be. A fresh recruit can be trained to aim, shoot and reload a crossbow in days or weeks. It can take years to develop the musculature and intuition to draw and aim a bow with any draw weight sufficient for warfare. This might be the best example of an rpg mechanic displaying some historical accuracy while still protecting game balance. Most of the close combat weapons make much less sense in comparison. I believe the crossbow to bow comparison accurately describes the skill floor to become functional and also supports, or at least does not contradict, the skill ceiling differences. The close combat options are messier. Most of them (swords, axes, spears, bludgeons) should really have an option that comes online at simple. The skill floor for murder does not seem terribly different for a lot of these options. But then they all need options that come in at martial proficiency to reflect the skill ceiling aspect.
I guess I am saying I disagree with your crossbow and bow assessment but do want to see simple and martial versions of most weapon groups. Firearms too, but that seemed redundant to argue separately.
The analogous situation in terms of "difficulty in training" that applies to melee weapons is like spears vs. swords. Spears are the original peasant levy weapon since the training is essentially "keep the sharp end pointed at danger" with the rest of the work being "how to fight in formation." Meanwhile, "fighting with swords" was something people from noble classes would train at for years.
So perhaps the simple/martial/advanced breakdown should be "how effective would a person with minimal training be at using the weapon in an actual battle."
But for the sake of being a cinematic fantasy game, weapons kind of inherently don't work like real ones do. Like almost every polearm IRL was a formation weapon- there was a person on every side of you who also had a halberd, so the fact that it's slow to reorient the business end of these things is fine. But in Pathfinder you have a person standing in a field by themself with a Bec de Corbin who isn't worried about being attacked from the side or the back (as Pathfinder doesn't have facing rules.)
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As far as fire and rescue axes, those are probably considered tools and thus improvised when used in battle, like a carpenter's hammer.
After the inclusion of Frying Pan to the list of simple weapons, I can't really take "those are probably considered tools" seriously as both axes are much better suited for combat than a Frying Pan... :P
Meanwhile, "fighting with swords" was something people from noble classes would train at for years.
That is more of skill ceiling duscussion, I did not suggest swords do not deserve a martial version. Some warriors trained with spears for years, every bit as elegant as a sword. As I said, I think most categories of stabbers and choppers need representation at simple and martial.
I mean the reason it doesn't make sense when you try to evaluate weapons based on how hard they are to use is that's not how the tiers work.
Martial weapons are martial because they have a bigger trait budget than simple weapons, and advanced weapons bigger still.
Great. Where are the simple axes? I want to see versions of every common weapon type at the Simple budget and Martial budget.
I had a specific (and admittedly minor) complaint against making Crossbows Martial and Bows Simple. Even looking at it from the perspective of trait budget, Bows are better and should remain Martial.
Completely divorcing the system from reality seems like it would risk losing some flavor and context. It is already pretty abstract as is, I think there is some value in letting life give our art some ideas.
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Yeah, I think a weapon grade re-design is in order for the Remaster.
Having an Adze and Hatchet as Simple weapons makes sense, whereas implementing Battle Axes and Tomahawks as Martial would seem to fit better. (Yes, I know Battle Axe is already a Martial weapon.)
Many simple weapons that requires a martial training to be efficiently used could up to martial category: Katars, Morningstars, Throwing Knifes, Crossbows, Reload 1+ firearms.I might have misunderstood your point. There are strong arguments to be made for Simple crossbows and Martial bows. If weapon proficiencies represent the difficulty of being trained to fight with a particular weapon then things are as they should be. A fresh recruit can be trained to aim, shoot and reload a crossbow in days or weeks. It can take years to develop the musculature and intuition to draw and aim a bow with any draw weight sufficient for warfare. This might be the best example of an rpg mechanic displaying some historical accuracy while still protecting game balance. Most of the close combat weapons make much less sense in comparison. I believe the crossbow to bow comparison accurately describes the skill floor to become functional and also supports, or at least does not contradict, the skill ceiling differences. The close combat options are messier. Most of them (swords, axes, spears, bludgeons) should really have an option that comes online at simple. The skill floor for murder does not seem terribly different for a lot of these options. But then they all need options that come in at martial proficiency to reflect the skill ceiling aspect.
I guess I am saying I disagree with your crossbow and bow assessment but do want to see simple and martial versions of most weapon groups. Firearms too, but that seemed redundant to argue separately.
My point is how common this holds for human society (hence most non-human societies).
For example, a bow is a simple enough weapon for me, to the point where it has existed in many different and unrelated cultures. From Japanese arches to American Indian arches. It may be a bit contradictory what I'm going to say, but the difficulty of training is not so relevant here, but the complexity of the weapon itself in its understanding, manufacture and access.
Using comparing bows to crossbows for example. It's pretty easy to understand how a bow works, it's basically a curved, flexible wood with a thin string attached that is used to push arrows at high speeds. I understand that mastering the weapon requires a lot of training, but mechanically the whole thing is very simple to understand.
The crossbow uses a similar but much more complex mechanism that uses triggers, latches and levers to function. It is something much more complex to understand and use at first sight, even if these mechanisms in practice facilitate aiming and guarantee a minimum "firepower" to these weapons.
Mastery of both weapons (any weapon in fact) will always require a lot of training and experience, regardless of its complexity. People who are well trained with bows can load and aim quickly, aim better and faster, and deal with unexpected situations better than those who are not. The same goes for crossbows, where an experienced fighter who dominates them takes into account the advantages and disadvantages of the same in matters of battle tactics and good use, such as care not to drop the arrow while moving with the loaded crossbow ( something you usually don't need with arrows) and the fact that unlike the bow tactics of shooting and hiding and reloading usually work better than trying a second shot.
That's why I said that for me shortbows should be a simple weapon, because it's much more unusual to find a hunter or a guard in a village who knows how to handle and maintain a bow, than to find someone with a crossbow in an equally experienced way.