The Ronyon's page

Doesn't the Homunculus has a death tax of mental damage to its master?
I think its 2d10,maybe.
By the time you are high enough level to aquire a
homunculus it might not be a significant amout of damage, but Im not sure.

I might be crazy, but I could swear I heard of this in one of the slew of new content videos.
A "boulder throwing" ability that applied handwrap runes to the boulders,in a way that implied that it was normal for thrown attacks

I think it was giant related, but I dont think we have any giant stuff forPCs, except for the barbarians.

I like it.
Or rather I would like it if the sacrifice was properly rewarded.
Extra damage isnt work the burning.
A free high level spell slot would be.

The 6th level feat, gifted power, does this,but only for some spells.
If you do find a spell on that list that you would like to cast over and over, being enfeebled is still better than being on fire.

I think most buffs should be distributed before the fight starts. The condition removals that need to be applied mid combat are probably better delivered by a Chirurgeons special abilities.

Tossing the Alchemical Item to your teamate is also an option.

Player Core 2 pg 170 wrote:

Item Delivery:

If your familiar is adjacent to you, you can Command it to deliver an item. Instead of its normal 2 actions, your familiar Interacts to take an item you’re holding of light Bulk or less, then takes one move action, then finally Interacts to pass off the item to another willing creature. It can instead administer the item to the creature if it can do so with 1 action and has an appropriate type of item (such as alchemical elixir). If your familiar doesn’t reach the target this turn, it holds the item until commanded otherwise. Your familiar must have the manual dexterity ability to select this.

I'm not seeing a lot of problems here. You have to be holding the item for the Familiar to take it. The Familiar must take a Move Action. The only form of activation is to administer the Item to another willing creature. This is a really, really specific Activity. Finally, as it specifies "you can Command" and "instead of its normal 2 actions", no interaction with Independent.

I think the problem is the specificity.

Good news about the Flame Curse is it also stops while you are unconscious...

I think if you refocus 4 times,max, and you will have ended it.

There is a Cursebound feat that lets you get a high level spell slot.
It sounds like one of the better reasons to set oneself on fire,but I dont know all the details.

It seems to me that Cosmos has a better starting feat and Curse.
I know they can add the water walking(meh) and flying(wee!) feats, but what else is available to them?

I don't think it's invalid to question the wording and want more clarity; Paizo is normally very good at making their rules clear-cut, and even going out of their way to specify certain interactions even when they're covered by other rules already. Even if we can piece together what the developers intend by "can't be avoided or mitigated in any way", it wouldn't hurt to add a bit more specificity when helpful.

Given how the Oracle's curses can't be cured, reduced, suppressed, or mitigated, I would say that having resistance apply against Flames' fire damage would go against the intent and fall under trying to mitigate the effect. The alternative is that you could build your character to resist fire damage (say, by picking the Ifrit vesatile heritage), and all of a sudden you'd effectively just become immune to the curse, which I'd say defeats its purpose.

Im dont agree that they go out of their way to make their rules clear cut,but yes,for any real tabletop this is an easy question to adjuducate using the too good to be true metric.

Redirecting a little, the class is what it is, so what can we make with it?

Lets start with Goblin ancestry for Burn It.
What heritage would we want?

Rousing Splash is available for temporary hit points, what else can we use?

If they had made the Flame Curse a Weakness to a damage that could be avoided,like the did for two of the other curses,they would have certainly also mentioned that any Immunity or Resistance to that damage did not apply.

Instead they made it an active effect and left off that language.
Intentional?
I find it impossible to know their intent, since they often make choices that are contrary to the wisdom of the crowd, common sense or whatever and rarely explain intent.

Goblin remains a good choice for this subclass, due to Burn It!.

One feat that gives you Martial/Medium proficiency at Cursebound 1 and Advanced/Heavy proficiency at Cursebound 2, would have made a lot of people happier.
Not happy, just happier.

Does the Flames Curse specify that"fire damage caused to a flames oracle as the direct result of their curse cannot be mitigated through fire resistance or immunity."?
Bones specifies that resistance and/or immunity are bypassed, I think the Sky(name?) Curse does as well, but I dont think Flame says the same thing.
Even so, I think that it is a reasonable conclusion.

Moving on,what about healing and temporary hit points?
A low level Numbing Tonic would effectivly neutralize the damage from two levels of the flame curse.
That seems like a flavorful, but also powerful outcome.
Not balanced, but better than allowing any shmoe with Eat Fire to dodge the damage.

The general description of the Curses says they cannot be avoided or mitigated in any way, but what does that mean?
Mitigate and Avoid are not defined terms in this game.
For example the Bones Curse say specifically that any immunity or resistances are suppressed, but the Flames Curse doesn't mention immunity or resistances at all.

If I'm on fire, taking two points of damage a round,and I have fire resistance, do I still take damage ?
Resistance doesn't put out the fire, but it does "mitigate" the effects.
What if I'm under the effect of a Numbing or Soothing Tonic?
Is fast healing mitigation?
What about regular healing?
Are temporary hit points mitigating?

The Flame Curse is to be on fire, not to take damage.
Even unavoidable damage is the intended effect does the prohibition on mitigation prevent healing or temporary hit points?
If so,are you then never allowed to heal?
Heck,refocusing "mitigates" the curse, and we are certainly allowed to do that.

As written, I think resistances, healing, and temporary boosts to accuracy, hit points etc, all are allowed to work, unless they are specifically excluded in a given Curses description.
Nothing that changes or removes a Status should be allowed.
You must remain on fire, Clumsy, or Enfeebled, but you can boost the affected checks and/or attributes, heal damage, and even resist damage, unless your curse specifies otherwise.
This reading increases the imbalance between the different the Curses, but they were pretty terribly out of balance already.

Flames comes out looking good since fire resistance is not disallowed, but Cosmos was already in the lead with a Curse that is barely and inconvenience.

BotBrain wrote:

Oh how could I forget, simple injection weapons so toxicologists have an "out of the box" option if they so desire.

The injection reservoir was published in Treasure Vault and can be added to any piecing weapon...

No need to create new weapons.

Granted, 10 gp is a bit steep at 1st level but doable.

It works on melee weapons only, which is a shame.

I wonder,could you trade the Alchemical Familiar for a 3 ability Specific Familiar, since you get a total of 3 abilities if you include the Construct trait.

The Poisoner Familiar Ability sounds interesting.
How many doses of poison can it hold?
Can it add poison to ammunition or just blades?
Does it include a Move Action like "Item Delivery"?

Can Item Delivery work with Independent?

Weapons for dirty tricks should include the dueling cape and pocket sand...

I looked again at Numbing/Soothing Tonic.
20 renewing temp points at 16 level seems kinda ok.
Is fast healing 10 a signifigant amount at 17th level?

All the bestial mutagen AC penalties are gone in PC2.

The numbing tonic is the one you take before soothing. The latter is only later game when you have enough vials, need it, and have combine elixirs feat.

2 temporary hit points/one hit point of healing still doesn't seem like much, especially given what they cost in terms of resources, but I've never played with this setup, so maybe I just don't understand how good it is.

Dropping the AC penalties is great, but also a perfect example of how past conditions set up low expectations-how was that ever viable?

Sticking to PC2 alchemist, there are some obvious equity questions.
Why not action compression for every specialty?
Since Quick Bomber is a thing, why not Quick Quaff For mutagines,Injection for elixirs and Infuse for poisons?

Bombers get to pick a elemental weakness on the fly.
Why not let choose between being tougher, more accurate, or harder hitting when they create viles on the fly?
Too complicated?
Fair enough.
Give them Regurgitate Mutagen as bonus feat instead,seems entirely appropriate.
Or how about we just let Mutaginists ignore the downsides of mutagens their level and lower?
This makes them really stand out while keeping the power of mutagens in the setting at large, under control.
This is true of any buff that applies only to a research field, it keeps the crazy stuff in house.
Let Chirochurgeons use all their actions to heal damage, without a cooldown period, or better still,pile up temp HP on their frontliners.
That sounds like a win for teamwork focused game.

I am by no means sure that changes like these wouldn't break something, but with 3 out of the 4 Research Fields being crap when they are using Quick Alchemy to do their specialized vials, I wish they had been more permissive.
As things stand, every research field seems better off throwing bombs than they are doing their own thing.

I am still excited to build characters with this class and the Archetype, because a free daily supply of alchemical items offers a crazy amount of flexibility.

Chirurgeon has a 10min cooldown on its main ability.
Considering that you cant win a combat on healing alone, is this hobbling even nessiary?
I feel like they are just a chassis to bolt medicine feats onto.

Mutagenist take a -2 hit to AC and reflexes to get a +1 bump to accuracy?
And that's the goto for combat?
That seems terrible.

As for Soothing, can multiple of them stack?
1 point of healing on your turn seems underwhelming.

I feel like Alchemist players may have become accustomed to some subpar choices,making even subpar improvements seem excellent.

I was looking at Mutagens, to see what the Mutagenist was getting in return for an action.
I dont see any downsides that are worth spending an action.a round to supress.

It also turns out I dont really know what Mutagenists do in combat.
I thought they "monstered out " but i dont see any alchemy items that would really support a Mr Hyde combat style.

Zalabim wrote:

The problem with toxicologist is that they didn't make poisoning weapons in combat functional. How is the blowgun poisoner feat supposed to work?

Create poison. Apply poison. Strike. Next turn.

You can poison your ammunitions before the fight. No need to do it during the fight (luckily).

Couldn't any alchemist do that?

What about a disease inclicted by a Summons?

"Wasp Larva (disease) Saving Throw DC 21 Fortitude; Stage 1 carrier with no ill effect (1d6 days); Stage 2 drained 1 (1d4 days); Stage 3 5d6 damage, larva emerges (disease ends)"

It's seem like only Toxicologist and Bomber have abilities that grant combat utility from the beginning.
The only thing about Chirurgeon that excites me is the Craft/Medicine substitution.
It's giving Frankenstein vibes, and I love it.
The maxed healing at 13 is also great, but that's it.

The bases class abilities seem to offer many options by themselves.
Someone said that there is not a Reach elixir, but I think Choker-Arm Mutagen should fit the bill.
Someone mentioned leveraging the Archer Archetype, I am curious if Alchemical Ammunition could be made to work work for a Hawkeye/Green Arrow build.

This new clasa sounds like the most versatile caster ever.
I look forward to pairing it with Inventor or Witch Dedication or adding Alchemist Dedication to almost anything. the
I am curious about Investigators with Alchemical Sciences Methodology, how will they work?

What about draining or transferring lifeforce?

The same number that fit into a medium size backpack. None!

Backpacks can carry up to 4 Bulks and Medium creature occupies 6 Bulks. A large creature considers bulk 1 things as light but bulk 2 or more are counted as normal for them. So a bulk 6 creature doesn't fit into a backpack even if it's large because a large creature still considers it as 6 bulk.

Sounds like a 6 bulk that is uh, "divided" into into 1 bulk pieces,will fit into a Large sized backpack with room to spare...

The real question :how many Medium sized creatures can one fit into a Large sized backpack??
Asking for a friend...

Seems like being vague allows each table to decide how things work and believe their ruling to be RAI.
If the designers clarify their intent they open themselves up to criticism of both their explained rulings and their initial phrasing of the rules.
In such an environment, is there any upside in clarifying the published rules?
As it stands,anyone who disagress can argue amongst themselves,but not with the designers.

If this is their reasoning, I cant really fault it.
It resembles centuries of practice in both law and religion,just less bloody.

New spells?
Thats what Id like

It's annoying that most of these questions could be cleared up by the company but are not.
Clearly this is a deliberate strategy, and I dont have have enough information to know the why's.

Great character, though the "loyal slave" part honestly gives me the ick.
And yes I am aware he may not technically have been a slave.

Champion Dedication comes with moral compass baggage that I dislike.

I suppose most "medium armor" caster usually boost str to avoid the penalties?

Ive often thought that a Mount is most useful as a way to avoid heavy armor and sheild speed penalties.

More on topic, what about Sheilds for Wizards?

Having a base level of power but also being able to trade a debuf for a powerup is very "sorcer" to me.
We often see casters in fiction straining to "cast harder!",but most game mechanics do not support this.
Psychic is closest up till now.

Is there a way to increase unarmored AC proficiency for wizards?

I just watched the action packed end of Disney's Robin Hood for the nth time.
Still a classic adventure romp!
I would love to see someone stat out the fox and the bear.
What kind of rogues are they?
Robin is so damn good with the bow,maybe he's a fighter with rogue archetype?

What about Clerics and Druids who go Sentinel?
Is Dex still a good investment?

I know you mudt have a trained skill to qualify for the feat.
Can you be untrained the skill you are using with this feat?
For eximple be a Druid, trained in Nature, untrained Archana or Occult and attempt to trick a scroll of uh, lets say Resplendent Mansion?
I imagine your chances would be very poor,but you can still attempt it, right?

Trip H., your explanation is very thoughtful.
I think I sugested using shifters prosthesis and scrollstaffs to do the same thing,but it didn't quite work.

What is the pont on the item having stow and retrieve cooldown periods?

A player with a bunch of different gambits to use with the spells they have available to them will have more fun and the game master will as well.
Giving NPCs a chance to countering these gambits with skill rolls is better than just disallowing them.
As a player in game where scouting is so fraught, I think I would frequently be baiting guards into ambushes ,or simply away from their posts.
Would the guards then get another roll to figure out it was a feint?
What about burrowing animals?
Would the guards get a skill roll to detect them underground?
If the whole compound is roused 3 nights in a row,is there a penalty imposed due to fatigue?

I dont see ultra wary guards as a reason to not use scouts, I see them as a means to an end.
In a game where your average guard is ready for magical intrusions,a wizard can be even more powerful by becoming the boogyman.
False alarms create complacency, and encourage the enemy to make mistakes.

For example ,if you can capture one of the enemy, you can send an Illusionary Creature back in their place.
Lets assume it is discovered and defeated.
Send another one.
Same result.
Then send back the actual captive and watch them slaughter one of their own.
Even evil creatures should be disconcerted,if not dismayed.
This will be the distraction, so your Familiar/Rogue/strike force can slip past the guardians.

If Invisibility isnt much of a boone to Stealth, then it upgrades Figments into an even better distraction.
The tells that reveal an Invisble character become the Figments that guards should treat like an Invisble character.
Another distraction and this one creates huge savings in the special effects budget.

That collection of spells is super weird and goofy!
Filtering out the rare and uncommon ones calms things down a lot.

Yas, these seem like enough to contribute something at every level.

Eli Shane has a title for your new class...

Im curious about this as well.
Im not sure if you can technically spells that target characters to target objects.
It would be dumb if you couldn't, but Pathfinder 2E culture sometimes does this.

Thank you for the replies.

I see plenty of options here, but now I have new questions.

So,a druid is fine with mostly Reflex/Fortitude save spells?

Are Demorilize and Bon-Mott on a Wisdom centric caster likely to work?
How much Charism investment is needed to be effective?
Bon-mott has no direct combat effect anyways, unlike Demoralize, but I like it as a way to soften up Will saves.

There are so many great spellhearts,I find myself looking at Daze and finding it underwhelmingby comparison.
I guess that leads me back to the first question?
If it's fine to do without Will save spells, I may as well invest in something I'd enjoy more.

Sounds like B and Op did not appreciate the influence D was having on the other players.
Given this is group was set up with B's desires in mind, that's fine.

Still, from the information provided nothing D did seems out of line with normal expectations.
Asking that the encounters and rules be adjusted to suit your desired playstyle is very,very meta, and not a norm I am familiar with.
Suggesting character choices that are in line with the expectations of the designers is really not out of the ordinary.

I dont think one nesisarily needs to play a ttrpgame as "intended" to learn it, any more than you must cook exactly to a recipe to learn that.

I do think that playing the rules and encounters as written will help you understand the underlying intentions.

I play a lot of games with kids who barely know the rules.
Letting them play the character they want to play the way they want to play it, wothout pulling punches is a great way to teach through natral consequences.
One player who grew up at my table knows how to optimize and that he prefers a not very challengeing game.
If we are at the same table, one of us is going to be disappointed with the gameplay,but that's ok.

Player B is adult enough to be on this forum, and can decide what they want to learn and how they want to learn it, for themselves.

I hope A,B,C,D and OP can enjoy a game together.

From what I understand, this is a weak point for them.
Are there items, archetypes, or other choices that can address this?

Based on whats been posted,player B is expectingother players and the game rules to change to suit their vision of fun.
There may be more to it, but we are not privy to that.
Meta is part of allmost all TTrpg gameplay.
By asking that the potion rules be changed, player B was asking for the world to change to accomdate the player characters.
What is more meta than that?
If you really dont want meta to enter into the game, will you be ok when another PC steals from your PC becuse "that's just what my character would do"?
What if I show up to a zombi filled dungeoncrawl with a character who is optimized for social interactions and only spells with the Mental tag?
We can play that out strait,no meta, but will it be fun?
Highly doubtful.

As a long time optimizer I find the power constraints refreshing.
What I dislike is breadth restrictions.
If I'm going sacrifice class feats for a swarm, I want a swarm, and this doesnt scratch that itch.

As for getting that effect with other feats, classes features, etc,a PC with Animal Empathy could use feats like Glad Hand,Group Impression,Hobnobber,Eyes of the City, Entourage and Shameless Request on animals.
None of these will work on an animal with the Swarm Mind Ability.
They should work on a potintially unlimited number of individual animals.
A Charism caster with the Primal list could really run with this.
There is no other ability quite like Animal Empathy,but some come close.

The limited range, speed and damage types all conspire to make this Dedication even more niche and less interesting.

I would love to send a swarm of bugs to search a castle ,to have a swarm of ravens that could keep up with an Awakened Wolf,or a swarm of Fireflys that could actually start a fire.

Looking at Bonded Animal , I think it could work to aquire a swarm.
Swarm mind only negates mental effects, and Bonded Animal doesn't have that trait.

Concerning the feat that allows the swarm grant lesser Cover,the swarm is already Large sized,so it should grant normal Cover when positioned in front of (medium, small and tiny) character's.
Charging a feat to get lesser cover while sharing a space with the swarm seems really stingy.

If I wanted to carry loaded slings I'd tuck each into a bandoleer pouch with the the knots and finger loops sticking out.

Irl,historical repeating crossbows stayed loaded, but generally require two hands to fire.
Repeating crossbows from the mind of Jörg Sprave are another thing entirely...
I can easily imagine a single shot crossbow that would retain a loaded bolt, but it would also be slower to load/reload.

As for firearms,carrying multiple loaded pistols is as old as the idea of pistols and continued in actual practical use up through at least 1942, accord to Fairbairn and Sykes.
B7

Reguarding Small PCs mounted on Mature Animal Companion s:

If we are just looking at speed for a Small PC mounted build,I think a Mature Dromaeosaur gets 50 feet of "free" movement.
Before you can access , you might have had a Medium sized horse,and could Command it to use Gallop, for 100 feet of movement,but that would cost an action.
Becuse of the Dromaeosaurs higher base speed, you can get to 100 ft speed via Command,without using a Support action.

A Small PC that had to switch from riding a Medium Goat to riding a Mature Large Goat would lose 35" of top speed indoors(to Difficult Terrain) but still gain 15 feet of "free" movement.

Small PCs whose Medium Beetle, Camel and Chair ACs Mature into Large can no longer use the support benifits while mounted.
Their top indoorspeeds will be lower but they will gain"free"movement.

I think Small PCs riding Medium ACs still come out OK after their AC Matures.
A revision making the Size entry for an AC the maximum available without feats,with all smallers sizes also available choices, would a simple fix.
Would Tiny Animal Companions cause any balance issue's?

If we are just looking at speed for a Small PC mounted build,I think a Mature Dromaeosaur gets 50 feet of "free" movement.
Before that, you might have had a Medium sized horse,and could Command it to use Gallop, for 100 feet of movement,but that would cost an action.
Becuse of the Dromaeosaurs higher base speed, you can get to 100 ft speed via Command,without using a Support action.

A Small PC that had to switch from riding a Medium Goat to riding a Mature Large Goat would lose 35" of top speed indoors(to Difficult Terrain) but still gain 15 feet of "free" movement.

Small PCs whose Beetle, Camel and Chair riders who's ACs Mature can no longer use the support benifits while mounted.
Is that a great lose compared to free movement?
Im not sure.

I think Small PCs riding Medium ACs are mostly doing OK, but a revision making the Size entry for an AC the maximum available without feats, with all smallers sizes also allowed seems like a simple fix.
Would Tiny Animal Companions cause any balance issue's?
I dont thinks so, but I might be missing something.