Okay. Crazier thought. Again, we're talking Director of Brand Strategy. That means that it's not necessarily a standard paizo-published book (or set of books). It could be almost anything.
So if we're going to go pie-in-the-sky wacky ideas on this one?
A CRPG built on the PF2 ruleset.
I personally would *love* a CRPG built on the PF2 ruleset, and it would totally qualify. Almost certainly wouldn't be a MMORPG, because it's way too easy to crash and burn on those things, but a standard turn-based isometric? Oh, yes. It'd be a nice way to get more people exposed to the system, too.
I mean, I don't necessarily expect it, because I don't know who they'd get to actually write the thing, but it would totally count.
I dunno about you, but I'm feeling stoked.
Okay. Crazier thought. Again, we're talking Director of Brand Strategy. That means that it's not necessarily a standard paizo-published book (or set of books). It could be almost anything.
So if we're going to go pie-in-the-sky wacky ideas on this one?
A CRPG built on the PF2 ruleset.
I personally would *love* a CRPG built on the PF2 ruleset, and it would totally qualify. Almost certainly wouldn't be a MMORPG, because it's way too easy to crash and burn on those things, but a standard turn-based isometric? Oh, yes. It'd be a nice way to get more people exposed to the system, too.
I mean, I don't necessarily expect it, because I don't know who they'd get to actually write the thing, but it would totally count.
I dunno about you, but I'm feeling stoked.
What's the scuttlebutt?
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What's the scuttlebutt?
That "So..." was a link. You should check out the link.
A rather interesting announcement in the Paizo blog.
As far as content goes (and given Paizo's track record of making video games of its most popular APs), I suspect that the inclusion of Fists of the Ruby Phoenix is at least a possibility in some sort of expansion content - it's a higher-level campaign somewhat shorter than most of the other APs, and it can be fairly easily grafted onto an existing storyline. Additionally, many of its encounters resemble video game traditions to some extent already (as far as I can tell, the average AP villain wouldn't split their "boss key" into fragments and give them to appropriately thematic "mini-bosses"), and reading through it, I'm only seeing one encounter - the vertical Challenge of Falling Stars - that would be difficult to implement in an isometric game like the existing Pathfinder games.
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With Tian Xia creeping into 2024, I'm hoping that it's bookended by this year's Kineticist and a Shaman next year. Calling my shot on a 2024 divine book of some sort.
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Here's hoping. IMO, Clerics could also use a shot in the arm.
Okay. Why? It's seemed to me like they were very solid at what they do.
I mean, warpriest is in a kind of weird place, and you probably want to cheese in a decent attack cantrip in some way, but Heal/Harm Font is a thing, and the support feats for it are pretty solid too. "Best healer in the game bar none, plus you can still do other stuff too if you work it" isn't screaming "could use a shot in the arm" to me.
I mean, I'm not arguing against a divine book in 2024, but "clerics need help" really isn't the reason why.
What kind of additional sub-classes would you like for cleric?
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Clerics have 43 level 1 focus spells spread across over 200 deities. Second place is Sorcerer with 15.
Big disagree that they're lacking in subclass options.
My biggest hope for a Divine book is that Paizo remembers Divine and Cleric aren't synonyms. There are five divine casters and three martials that can give themselves divine aligned options, but too often mechanics seem solely designed with the cleric in mind.
I suppose Inquisitor could be a doctrine. Maybe Exorcist. Shaman? I don’t know what else.
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Nah, doctrines aren’t subclasses. Spoilering this rant for the sake of those who’ve seen me bang his drum:
That probably what it should have been, though I get a small headache imagining how to write that up so it would apply equally to all 5 core caster classes. Otoh, starfinder managed to make that style of “plug in” that could apply to multiple classes, so PF2 could have too.
Point for point, a cleric’s deity lines up with what a caster’s subclass, like a bloodline or curse, gives out.
But that’s wandering off topic. I like what was said upthread, separating “Divine” from “Cleric”. If there’s a Divine book in the pipeline, that’s something I’d like to see happen.
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At the very least it would be nice to get 'requirement: you have a deity' FAQ'd. I'm pretty sure it means you are a cleric or champion that has the deity class feature, and a ton of divine spells have deity requirements which feels pretty crappy if you're a sorcerer/witch/summoner/oracle.
It's not really a fair complaint, but another thing that bugs me about the divine list (or maybe just the way the rules work in general) is how many spells are counteract checks against something. It works well for a prepared caster, but for a spontaneous caster it means if a counteract spell isn't a signature spells or a spell known on your highest/second highest spell list, it's going to be useless most of the time. Combine that with the sheer amount of things a party needs to be ready for (dispel magic, remove paralysis, restoration, restore senses, neutralize poison, remove disease, remove curse, etc) and it feels pretty limiting being a spontaneous healer. At least imo.
Doctrines were an early try at merging two classes (the 3.5/PF1 base Cleric and the Cloistered Cleric) in a single one.
Since we have not had a new doctrine ever since, I feel the devs have deemed this attempt unfruitful.
Have they said so? If not, I wonder why not.
I think you mean "Cleric and Warpriest", no?
Design Manager
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Clerics have 43 level 1 focus spells spread across over 200 deities. Second place is Sorcerer with 15.
Very much this. Deities are the main subclass for clerics; all doctrines do is toggle where you place yourself on the battlefield, with cloistered being the back to mid-line option and warpriest being the mid to front-line option.
Doctrines don't actually have the mechanical weight to do something like offer a previously unsupported character archetype; it's the deity that sets your font, spells, favored weapon, extra skill, etc.
If you were going to build something like an inquisitor using the cleric chassis, you'd likely need to do it as a class archetype so you have enough room to support the concept by trading out more and different things than a doctrine is set up to affect.
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I think if you were trying to do an Inquisitor, you would first need to figure out what it is since the 1e class was pulling in a lot of different directions that aren't really related.
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My apologies, one last post before I let this all go. Please don’t take my lack of further response as dismissive towards anything you might later reply, I just think I have little else to say.
If the doctrines didn’t change quite as much, I would agree with you. But screwing around with baseline proficiencies, which is pretty much *all* that doctrines do (at the cost/delay of your first level focus spell), is squarely in Class Archetype territory, as far as how they were described in the CRB.
For me, a warpreist doctrine that was truly a subclass would be something more like Warrior Bard Muse. The saves, weapon, armor profiencies, and all else would remain unchanged, but you’d then get bonus medium armor proficiency and the same weapon boost as warpriests currently get.
Ultimately while I like doctrines from a “turning knobs on class design” perspective, I’m not sure it meets the class fantasy it is supposed to deliver on. It hasn’t been mentioned as something to be revised, but who knows what remastery will bring? Maybe the next iteration will be a proper subclass, which would open the door to other potential doctrines like many have craved. Or maybe they’ll make a “warmage” class archetype that can be applied to any caster.
Also, I am THRILLED to be wrong that there would be no third rulebook this year. Kind of shocked at the turnaround time, but still thrilled.
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I bet nobody posting in this thread anticipated the remastering effort. :-)
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I bet nobody posting in this thread anticipated the remastering effort. :-)
That one caught everyone off guard. We need to start thinking farther ahead and outside the box. I think the first AP for PF3d will have pop up maps.
Pathfinder 4d will have a time travel tool for the GM, so they know ahead of time what the PCs will do, so that they can prep for it. Using time travel Pathfinder 4d will replace all past editions, avoiding all the edition wars, and to avoid the OGL crisis, it will be released in 1970. By 1995 Paizo is so big they buy out Disney and build Golarion World.
Starfinder 4d is released in 1971 using the same rules as Pathfinder 4d. Paizo hires George Locus to write and film the first Starfinder AP In 2001 Paizo buys NASA to rewrite the Starship Combat rules and make full-scale mimis of starships.
To make sure everyone can play Pathfinder and Starfinder long into the future Paizo ends the Climate Change Crisis, sadly that book gets mixed reviews, I thought it had some great adventure seeds in it.
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I bet nobody posting in this thread anticipated the remastering effort. :-)That one caught everyone off guard. We need to start thinking farther ahead and outside the box. I think the first AP for PF3d will have pop up maps.
Pathfinder 4d will have a time travel tool for the GM, so they know ahead of time what the PCs will do, so that they can prep for it. Using time travel Pathfinder 4d will replace all past editions, avoiding all the edition wars, and to avoid the OGL crisis, it will be released in 1970. By 1995 Paizo is so big they buy out Disney and build Golarion World.
Starfinder 4d is released in 1971 using the same rules as Pathfinder 4d. Paizo hires George Locus to write and film the first Starfinder AP In 2001 Paizo buys NASA to rewrite the Starship Combat rules and make full-scale mimis of starships.
To make sure everyone can play Pathfinder and Starfinder long into the future Paizo ends the Climate Change Crisis, sadly that book gets mixed reviews, I thought it had some great adventure seeds in it.
Now you're thinking with portals.
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I bet nobody posting in this thread anticipated the remastering effort. :-)
I certainly hadn't expected anything like that yet.
In retrospect, a serious consideration of the implications of copyright law and the way that ORC and OGL cannot possibly mix might have led me to predict something like it, but it didn't even occur to me to think along those lines.
I also hear that we're going to get another rulebook announcement come this next paizocon. So... what's *that* going to be?
I honestly don't think it's going to be a Divine book (yet) because of that whole "books to make the buildign blocks for the next book" thing. I basically don't see any upcoming LO books that would need a new Divine book.
I'm pretty much convinced that the arc of intent over the medium term is aiming either at Vudra (Which kind of wants more Aberration love) or at Arcadia (Will need Shamans).
Given the recent disruption, though... I'm thinking Vudra and aberrations. We're getting a lot of the heart of aberration lore torn out with the OGL thing. Now is absolutely the time to get a nice, chonky book that rebuilds what aberrations mean in the new Golarion.
Note that I'm not saying that Vudra/Arcadia will necessarily be the next LO books. I just think that if we have any LO books between here and there, they'll be stepping stones to a degree.
Also, I do admit bias in this. I want an aberration book... especially if they can fit a delicious new aberration-based class into it.
My estimation of divine book likelihood went up with the remaster announcement. Before, we already had a big book of gods, domains, and spells for domains. Now, they might need a big book of gods without the alignment aspect baked in. Maybe not, though.
Edit: Aberration class... Yes. 10/10, do want.
My estimation of divine book likelihood went up with the remaster announcement. Before, we already had a big book of gods, domains, and spells for domains. Now, they might need a big book of gods without the alignment aspect baked in. Maybe not, though.
Edit: Aberration class... Yes. 10/10, do want.
Ah. Good point. Yeah, that does raise the importance of the divine book. We'll see a lot of that in CR1 and possibly CR2, because they're gong to need to republish the base deities in order to make clerics playable out of the box, and of course the Tian Xia books are going to be able to fix up all of the gods that come from there, but it's not unreasonable to think that they might want to tweak a few more past that and/or to really dig into the new ways of interacting with devotion and whatnot.
Though... by the same token, I kind of think that won't be happening quite yet. I mean, if they're going to have a new book to really dig into the crunch and flavor implications of the upcoming cosmological shifts, then I feel like there are real benefits to waiting long enough for CR1/CR2 to actually get published and see some use, so they can refine based on the results of actual widespread play. By contrast, the aberration book would be in reaction to the OGL changes directly, but nothing in the currently declared remasters is really going to be new information for those.
Like... I expect (and hope for, but mostly expect) a class or two to come out of the upcoming rulebook. Any divine class that might show up in such a book would benefit from having some real play feedback on the new divine rules... and I'd expect they'd play around with them in some interesting ways, too. So... I'm going to say probably not a divine book next. Not quite yet. Having divine show up in the class playtest after next would make sense, though.
In the meantime, I'd expect (hope for) a new class that isn't really touching any of the chunks that got shifted by the recent adjustments. They won't be particularly divine or alignment-based, they won't have focus spells, they (probably?) won't be casters at all.
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Luis had sure made it sound like that Divine book was coming in his November AMA, but I have no clue how the Remaster played havoc with their release schedule. I think both it and an aberrations book are quite likely eventually… which is nice, because I love the sound of both.
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My estimation of divine book likelihood went up with the remaster announcement. Before, we already had a big book of gods, domains, and spells for domains. Now, they might need a big book of gods without the alignment aspect baked in. Maybe not, though.
Edit: Aberration class... Yes. 10/10, do want.
Yeah I feel like this is one thing we should be looking for with predicting future books now, elements of the lore that are going to be effected more by changes in the remaster, and where they might need to address that in some way. A dragon themed book could also be possible for this same reason, especially with wyvarans now confirmed.
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Yeah I feel like this is one thing we should be looking for with predicting future books now, elements of the lore that are going to be effected more by changes in the remaster, and where they might need to address that in some way. A dragon themed book could also be possible for this same reason, especially with wyvarans now confirmed.My estimation of divine book likelihood went up with the remaster announcement. Before, we already had a big book of gods, domains, and spells for domains. Now, they might need a big book of gods without the alignment aspect baked in. Maybe not, though.
Edit: Aberration class... Yes. 10/10, do want.
There’s a very compelling PF2 Reddit thread up right now suggesting that the new Versatile Heritage in Player Core 2 is dragon-related, and that we’ll get Wyvarans through that.
There’s a very compelling PF2 Reddit thread up right now suggesting that the new Versatile Heritage in Player Core 2 is dragon-related, and that we’ll get Wyvarans through that.Yeah I feel like this is one thing we should be looking for with predicting future books now, elements of the lore that are going to be effected more by changes in the remaster, and where they might need to address that in some way. A dragon themed book could also be possible for this same reason, especially with wyvarans now confirmed.My estimation of divine book likelihood went up with the remaster announcement. Before, we already had a big book of gods, domains, and spells for domains. Now, they might need a big book of gods without the alignment aspect baked in. Maybe not, though.
Edit: Aberration class... Yes. 10/10, do want.
I haven't seen that yet, I was wondering if that heritage was related to dragons but I never thought of it being the wyvaran in particular. I'll check it out then.
Divine book would also be a great way to update/add any divine creatures that wont be making it into Monster Core(or a theortical monster core 2.) Or spells for feats that cant make it into pc1 and pc2.
In addition the now lack of alignment, may be the perfect segway into one of the fantasies people want to have about an inquisitor esque class(be it that name or one changed, or something like the thaumaturge where it took inspiration from a 1e class but became its own thing)
The fantasy of a class that is built around the stradling the lines of their faith,
Or for a binder/barganing class where you are bartering and persuading divine powers to give you strength. Rather than be directly faithful to any one thing. And it would be in opposition to oracles who have their divinity thrust upon them .
I could see the argument for waiting on feedback. But given the potential hint in the ama from Luis, it feels like a strong candidate.
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I honestly don't think it's going to be a Divine book (yet) because of that whole "books to make the buildign blocks for the next book" thing. I basically don't see any upcoming LO books that would need a new Divine book.
I'm pretty much convinced that the arc of intent over the medium term is aiming either at Vudra (Which kind of wants more Aberration love) or at Arcadia (Will need Shamans).
Fwiw, the reason I’d say a Divine book is needed is specifically for Shaman. Michael Sayre’s pitch was specifically divine, and I’d really like to see that maintained. Especially as it fills a specific niche of “animist” and “pact broker” divine character that only the witch really flirts with, and that not very well.
Medium, another class that is strongly suggested will be divine, would also be welcome. I know Roll For Combat Legendary Games has them combined, but I don’t particularly care for that version. Separating them out and using both to expand what “Divine” means beyond “cleric spell list” is my preference.
I'd make it a wave caster to have entities that both focus on combat or spellcasting. In order to differentiate it from the summoner, which is already about sharing power, I think this one could be more about a give and take. Using certain abilities in exchange for giving the entity something they want. It would be closer to the oracle that way, but with wave casting and occult spells.
Slot casting? Oh, I hope not. Or, at least I hope that we get some sort of aberration class that isn't tied to that stuff. I mean, thematically it makes sense to have some sort of occult caster with an aberration theme - possibly a prepared occult caster, so that we can finally have an occult one of those. Having it be a wave caster would probably be about right too, if they could manage to figure out a way to make it interestingly different and still synergystic... but I personally would be very disappointed if they finally gave us some of that delicious freaky-weird body horror tentacular goodness at the class level and it was all tainted by spell slots.
Sorry, faulty memory. It’s legendary games I meant
Divine class? Yeah. Definitely.
Divine book? Maybe, I'm not sure. Paizo's never really used magical tradition as a theme for a book and I think it might be odd if they suddenly started. Nothing says they can't, but it's not something I'd hedge my bets on.
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Divine class? Yeah. Definitely.
Divine book? Maybe, I'm not sure. Paizo's never really used magical tradition as a theme for a book and I think it might be odd if they suddenly started. Nothing says they can't, but it's not something I'd hedge my bets on.
Dark Archive is very much an occult book.
Rage of Elements has strong primal themes.
Secrets of Magic feels pretty arcane in some ways.
Book of the Dead is more on the divine side, for obvious reasons.
If we get a Book of Aberrations, that'll be pretty strongly occult again.
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I think "Divine book" is being used as a shorthand for, has themes associated with divine concepts.
Like Rage of ELements has strong themes related to primal connections but It isn't a catch all primal book.
In fact rage of elements is a strong jumping on point.
I could see a "divine book" being released to fill out lore and stuff for the planes more associated with divine entities.
Not especially. DA and SoM consist mostly of generic, widely useful options. Hell, DA added an Oracle mystery and Druid feats, not bard and sorcerer ones.
Rage might have a slight primal bent, but it's not out yet so I can't say.
One of the classes in each of those books happened to be a spellcaster of a specific tradition, but that feels like kind of a low bar to classify something as a tradition-focused book.
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Not especially. DA and SoM consist mostly of generic, widely useful options. Hell, DA added an Oracle mystery and Druid feats, not bard and sorcerer ones.
Rage might have a slight primal bent, but it's not out yet so I can't say.
One of the classes in each of those books happened to be a spellcaster of a specific tradition, but that feels like kind of a low bar to classify something as a tradition-focused book.
Thaumaturge isn't a caster... but they fit the thematics of Occult incredibly tightly. The entire thing is basically made up of "weird hidden lore"
Let's look at the first sentence of the blurb on the Occult Tradition: "The practitioners of occult traditions seek to understand the unexplainable, categorize the bizarre, and otherwise access the ephemeral in a systematic way." The second sentence (about the Bard) metions "esoterica" specifically.
If you can't see how Dark Archive is connected to that....